Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei Episode 3 Discussion

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Jun 2013

436

Lacertoss said:
God, I urge people that actually like this to watch Mawaru Penguindrum to see the difference between a good approach to incestuos themes in a fictional work and pure fan-service to please creepy otaku.
If it wasn't for the crappy incest I probably would have give this a 5. Bad incest approach drop it to a 3, tho. Still won't drop it because readers tell me it's going to get better, but it's getting harder and harder to believe.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Peng Drum is another one of those crappy not related by blood shows, hell not even the brothers are related by blood.

Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and a handful of others are the few shows that actually try to deal with incest rather than oh not related by blood.

Also I have no problem with incest, especially in a fictional setting, I mean if you are going to ship a yuri/yaoi couple than its hypocritical to complain about incest.

Apr 24, 2014 6:01 PM

#604

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Oct 2013

348

krownklown said:

Lacertoss said:
God, I urge people that actually like this to watch Mawaru Penguindrum to see the difference between a good approach to incestuos themes in a fictional work and pure fan-service to please creepy otaku.
If it wasn't for the crappy incest I probably would have give this a 5. Bad incest approach drop it to a 3, tho. Still won't drop it because readers tell me it's going to get better, but it's getting harder and harder to believe.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Peng Drum is another one of those crappy not related by blood shows, hell not even the brothers are related by blood.

Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and a handful of others are the few shows that actually try to deal with incest rather than oh not related by blood.

Also I have no problem with incest, especially in a fictional setting, I mean if you are going to ship a yuri/yaoi couple than its hypocritical to complain about incest.

I mean the main reason society is so against incest is because it has higher chance of producing recessive trait which can be very dangerous and lowers over all population surival rate due to less diveserity in gene pool. Unlike yuri/yaoi thats flawed on a biological lvl, incest is just dangerious if the family have some dangerious recessive trait. Hell people used to encourge incest not so long ago to "keep the blood line pure" -.-

Its funny coz people when people breed live stock its the same thing but you really don't see people throwing a pitch over that, but in a factional world? Such a big no no.

Apr 24, 2014 8:09 PM

#605

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Jun 2013

436

RexZShadow said:

krownklown said:

Lacertoss said:
God, I urge people that actually like this to watch Mawaru Penguindrum to see the difference between a good approach to incestuos themes in a fictional work and pure fan-service to please creepy otaku.
If it wasn't for the crappy incest I probably would have give this a 5. Bad incest approach drop it to a 3, tho. Still won't drop it because readers tell me it's going to get better, but it's getting harder and harder to believe.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Peng Drum is another one of those crappy not related by blood shows, hell not even the brothers are related by blood.

Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and a handful of others are the few shows that actually try to deal with incest rather than oh not related by blood.

Also I have no problem with incest, especially in a fictional setting, I mean if you are going to ship a yuri/yaoi couple than its hypocritical to complain about incest.

I mean the main reason society is so against incest is because it has higher chance of producing recessive trait which can be very dangerous and lowers over all population surival rate due to less diveserity in gene pool. Unlike yuri/yaoi thats flawed on a biological lvl, incest is just dangerious if the family have some dangerious recessive trait. Hell people used to encourge incest not so long ago to "keep the blood line pure" -.-

Its funny coz people when people breed live stock its the same thing but you really don't see people throwing a pitch over that, but in a factional world? Such a big no no.

While its true thats the reason for a lot of the negativity, its a really unfounded, and b. we are talking about a fictional setting, and c. given how common place marriage among first cousins is depicted and treated.

A. Studies have been done, and generally speaking there is not a significantly higher rate of defects born to children of siblings or parents. It would take successive generations of inbreeding to really show development of any major problems. And then it also depends on the genetic information of said individuals.

B. Its anime people. For God's sake this is a work where they basically genetically engineer people.

C. Marriage among cousin's is not even blinked at, especially the way its treated in Japanese animation. I mean half the time they act like strangers, and act like they have no familial relationship when they are just somewhat further removed than siblings. Strictly speaking the royal houses had problems because cousins inbreed over long periods of time, rather segregated instances of brother sister.

I mean realistically speaking kids from the union of siblings/parents, barring that family already having terrible genetics are unlikely to lead to any major problems, while the accepted first cousin marriage is more realistically an issue.

Apr 24, 2014 9:21 PM

#606

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Oct 2013

348

@krownklown too much logic and sense o.-

Apr 24, 2014 10:10 PM

#607

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Jun 2013

436

RexZShadow said:
@krownklown too much logic and sense o.-

I know, but I can't stop.

Apr 25, 2014 8:30 AM

#608

Usernames54561

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Apr 2008

588

This series looks like its taking its own pace the only thing I really dislike was his sister and that Tatsuya is going godlike but we'll see

Apr 25, 2014 11:56 AM

#609

darkflamemaster2

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35

so is tatsuya like a freakin robot or something? i didnt get that whole part where he was "rebooting" or whatever it was that happened when his sister blasted him with a spell

Apr 25, 2014 12:26 PM

#610

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darkflamemaster2 said:
so is tatsuya like a freakin robot or something? i didnt get that whole part where he was "rebooting" or whatever it was that happened when his sister blasted him with a spell

W/o going in to spoiler, no not a robot its an ability he has gets explained later, pretty sure will happen this season of anime if they hit the 3rd arc. Well gets explained in second arc and expanded on in 3rd arc.

Apr 25, 2014 12:38 PM

#611

keragamming

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Oct 2013

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RexZShadow said:

darkflamemaster2 said:
so is tatsuya like a freakin robot or something? i didnt get that whole part where he was "rebooting" or whatever it was that happened when his sister blasted him with a spell

W/o going in to spoiler, no not a robot its an ability he has gets explained later, pretty sure will happen this season of anime if they hit the 3rd arc. Well gets explained in second arc and expanded on in 3rd arc.

I just read your spoiler, an I don't know what the heck is that? Better yet, take the spoiler tag off, it wont spoil anyone.

Apr 25, 2014 2:30 PM

#612

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Oct 2013

348

keragamming said:

RexZShadow said:

darkflamemaster2 said:
so is tatsuya like a freakin robot or something? i didnt get that whole part where he was "rebooting" or whatever it was that happened when his sister blasted him with a spell

W/o going in to spoiler, no not a robot its an ability he has gets explained later, pretty sure will happen this season of anime if they hit the 3rd arc. Well gets explained in second arc and expanded on in 3rd arc.

I just read your spoiler, an I don't know what the heck is that? Better yet, take the spoiler tag off, it wont spoil anyone.

Lol its just there for fun =X

Apr 25, 2014 3:38 PM

#613

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krownklown said:
snip

Saying something is "anime" like it somehow absolves it and its author of any sort of criticism stifles discussion and trivializes the problems that plague these sorts of series. It's no different than the gaming industry, esp in North America, where people go "it's just video games!" but thankfully meaningful dialogue is being made with regards to the sort of content being put into our games and how minorities are being represented and even what kind of worldly subjects are being tackled. Any work of fiction is not created in a vacuum. They are created by human beings who have gathered a sum of their experiences and inject it into their works. For better or worse they are almost a conduit to the creator's mind, much to the chagrin of Roland Barthes's "The Death of the Author." So to say, it's "just anime" is irresponsible because these are works made for public consumption and so they are subject to criticism and scrutiny, positive or negative. You don't have to think it's a big deal or even give a damn, but please do not brush it off when other people obviously feel otherwise, because it doesn't address the subject itself, which is the main point of our discussions.

Apr 25, 2014 3:42 PM

#614

Takuan_Soho

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krownklown said:
A. Studies have been done, and generally speaking there is not a significantly higher rate of defects born to children of siblings or parents. It would take successive generations of inbreeding to really show development of any major problems. And then it also depends on the genetic information of said individuals.

Not quite true, it nearly doubles the chance of there being a birth defect, but since the % chance for unrelated people is small, this doubling still means that the overall chance is small.

krownklown said:
B. Its anime people. For God's sake this is a work where they basically genetically engineer people.

How would the viewers know that? There has been nothing in the animation to suggest that. Now, had that been made clear than I think more people would "get it", however as I have said throughout this thread this has been an adaption problem.

As for it being animation. If you have a problem with pornography because you think it demeans women, then there really isn't a difference between 2D demeaning and 3D demeaning.

krownklown said:
C. Marriage among cousin's is not even blinked at, especially the way its treated in Japanese animation.

While legal in Japan, it is not exactly welcomed with open arms. It is however illegal in most western countries. In Japan marriage between cousins is looked at much the same way marriage between second cousins is in the US, nothing wrong with it, just a little strange.

krownklown said:
I mean half the time they act like strangers, and act like they have no familial relationship

Not half the time in the animation. I don't have an issue with incest, but I have found the way it depicted in this animation a tad annoying. They are trying too hard.

The "incest taboo" has little to do with genetics. Its antipathy is a deep seated "tribal" feeling. Marriages in the past were means of families creating alliances. When your children marry other tribal members or outside the tribe alliances (and expanded access to resources) are created. The only time incest has been accepted is when it was important to maintain resources within a family.

Anthropologists did a lot of research in New Guinea on this, and "genetics" didn't enter into the picture (in large part because the odds as stated above were low and of course no one understood genetics). When questioned why they didn't marry their sister, the most common response was "why, who would I get to hunt with then."

Incest aside, I don't think that is why people are dropping it. It is more the "straw on the camel's back" than the beam. It's an easy thing to point to. Similar to OreImou, most of the anger was about shipping and hatred of Kirino, not the incest.

Takuan_SohoApr 25, 2014 6:07 PM

Apr 25, 2014 6:06 PM

#615

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Oct 2013

348

wrenchbread said:

krownklown said:
snip

Saying something is "anime" like it somehow absolves it and its author of any sort of criticism stifles discussion and trivializes the problems that plague these sorts of series. It's no different than the gaming industry, esp in North America, where people go "it's just video games!" but thankfully meaningful dialogue is being made with regards to the sort of content being put into our games and how minorities are being represented and even what kind of worldly subjects are being tackled. Any work of fiction is not created in a vacuum. They are created by human beings who have gathered a sum of their experiences and inject it into their works. For better or worse they are almost a conduit to the creator's mind, much to the chagrin of Roland Barthes's "The Death of the Author." So to say, it's "just anime" is irresponsible because these are works made for public consumption and so they are subject to criticism and scrutiny, positive or negative. You don't have to think it's a big deal or even give a damn, but please do not brush it off when other people obviously feel otherwise, because it doesn't address the subject itself, which is the main point of our discussions.

Valid point but there something people nit picking about coz its not possible in real life and all that crap, the point of its anime and its video game (when used properly) means its fiction it doesn't have to follow the strick rules of reality, you can bend the rules to do w/e you need to get shit done. Like people don't quesiton why magic exist. I mean its fiction don't have to get all worked up over certain stuff like you would in real life.

Apr 25, 2014 6:40 PM

#616

Shigure

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2045

Incest is the best thing ever.

Apr 25, 2014 7:06 PM

#617

DerpHole

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Mar 2013

2801

SanaeSnake said:
Incest is the best thing ever.

Too bad it'll never happen in this show. They'll just continue to heavily hint at it but nothing will happen.

[size=200]MAL AVATAR SYSTEM BLOWS

Apr 25, 2014 7:45 PM

#618

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Mar 2014

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Apologies if this has been brought up before...but I'm just wondering why's there so much need for discipline? Barely a day of orientation for clubs (I'm assuming) passed and Tatsuya's handled like, 2 break-outs already?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from the way the school is presented, it seems like a rather prestigious one to me. I understand if it's a Weeds vs Blooms thing, but the two issues he's handled so far aren't. Just doesn't feel like something expected from a prestigious high school, at least, from my experience. Expected more complicated problems to come up.

If it were the case from the freshmen, though, probably could understand it a little more, but upperclassmen...just feels a little weird. Gives me the feel that this school has some serious issues in its Student Council since it's unable to unite its students for such basic matters. Perhaps someone could enlighten me here, thanks.

Apr 25, 2014 7:46 PM

#619

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Oct 2013

348

DerpHole said:

SanaeSnake said:
Incest is the best thing ever.

Too bad it'll never happen in this show. They'll just continue to heavily hint at it but nothing will happen.

Ya, idk I hate the harem/incest that always on the boarder but goes no where coz you feel like you fcking wasted all that time coz everything reset to 0 at the end -.-

I think only one where they cross the line was... and I can't remember =.= I think was based off a VN or something and the animem did the sister route. All I can remember was the name sora lol

helloworId said:
Apologies if this has been brought up before...but I'm just wondering why's there so much need for discipline? Barely a day of orientation for clubs (I'm assuming) passed and Tatsuya's handled like, 2 break-outs already?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from the way the school is presented, it seems like a rather prestigious one to me. I understand if it's a Weeds vs Blooms thing, but the two issues he's handled so far aren't. Just doesn't feel like something expected from a prestigious high school, at least, from my experience. Expected more complicated problems to come up.

If it were the case from the freshmen, though, probably could understand it a little more, but upperclassmen...just feels a little weird. Gives me the feel that this school has some serious issues in its Student Council since it's unable to unite it's students for such basic matters. Perhaps someone could enlighten me here, thanks.

Its coz its club week where all the clubs are trying to gather new members from the incoming freshman so things get a bit out of hand. Its also the only time where normal students are allow to carry CADs around which would cause more trule.

And he only acted once to stop the kendo club, the first time to save Erika wasn't a discipline act, he didn't report anyone in or anything he just dragged her out of the people mobbing her.

Apr 25, 2014 7:54 PM

#620

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Mar 2014

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RexZShadow said:

Its coz its club week where all the clubs are trying to gather new members from the incoming freshman so things get a bit out of hand.

...

And he only acted once to stop the kendo club, the first time to save Erika wasn't a discipline act, he didn't report anyone in or anything he just dragged her out of the people mobbing her.

Based on what's shown of their means of getting freshmen to join them, it seems really unprofessional of them, given how they're from a prestigious school. Reflects a lot on the Student Council and the school's standard itself.

RexZShadow said:
Its also the only time where normal students are allow to carry CADs around which would cause more trule.

But I guess this reason will suffice. Still feels off to me, though.

Apr 25, 2014 8:06 PM

#621

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Oct 2013

348

helloworId said:

RexZShadow said:

Its coz its club week where all the clubs are trying to gather new members from the incoming freshman so things get a bit out of hand.

...

And he only acted once to stop the kendo club, the first time to save Erika wasn't a discipline act, he didn't report anyone in or anything he just dragged her out of the people mobbing her.

Based on what's shown of their means of getting freshmen to join them, it seems really unprofessional of them, given how they're from a prestigious school. Reflects a lot on the Student Council and the school's standard itself.

RexZShadow said:
Its also the only time where normal students are allow to carry CADs around which would cause more trule.

But I guess this reason will suffice. Still feels off to me, though.

Well when he rescues Erika that kinda of thing is kinda common, get surrounded by tons of people trying to recruit her coz she pretty basically.Not malice in it just clubs getting over exciting on recruiting.

The second time with the kendo club wasn't really to recruit but to attack the other club. Coz its a magic school there 2 club that deals with sword play, one that use magic and one that doesn't so you can kinda see the tension that occurs when you have two conflicting clubs. One clubs runs in to ruin the other's demo.

Apr 25, 2014 8:27 PM

#622

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Jun 2013

436

First of all I am not trivializing anything. My point is that when an animated work throws into the mix magic and fantasy, then it becomes a moot point to try to argue that things like Polygamy or Incest would somehow be "unreal" in the contexts of that work.

This point was best made in Tenchi, where people really don't think much of the fact that, Aeka and Sasami are Tenchi's blood aunts, Ryoko and Washu, and even Sasami ironically are all pedophiles, you have potential bestiality with Ryo oki's human form, and polygamy is the norm. Its a different setting, with different rules, and different norms.

And also you have to realize, pointing out something is fictional does not necessarily take away from any message, you just have to realize since a fictional settings does not have the problematic outcomes of the real world, you have to treat it as such.

And yes there is some marginal increase in birth defects, but it is on such a small scale that it is still unlikely.

And also marriage even among first cousins is really common in the West (at least in terms of its acceptability, not whether its practiced), even in the US, over 20 states allow 1st cousin marriage, and those that allow some form of cousin marriage jumps to over 30. And before you say anything the fine liberal states of New York, and Mass. and California all allow 1st cousin marriage, while in Texas its a criminal offense. In Europe its allowed I believe in all but a few countires, not to mention its relatively common in places like the Middle East, Africa, and South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg

This map shows areas that allow just first cousin marriage, as you can see its the majority not minority. If it went to second degree cousins I am sure it would basically cover the whole globe.

But whatever, the point stands anyone criticizing Incest but supporting Yaoi/Yuri is kind of a hypocrite.

Hell why are we even talking about this again. Its not like the author of Mahouka even has the balls to pull off an incest pairing.

Apr 25, 2014 8:35 PM

#623

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Mar 2014

44

RexZShadow said:

Well when he rescues Erika that kinda of thing is kinda common, get surrounded by tons of people trying to recruit her coz she pretty basically.Not malice in it just clubs getting over exciting on recruiting.

Manhandling a freshman is common? And on top of that, in prestigious schools? Hmm that's new to me. Even then, the extent to which they did it--what with her blazer coming down her shoulders--is too overboard. For a school like this, I'd expect more professional ways of convincing students to join their clubs instead of straight up tugging her in every angle. A scene like this in any school setting would be an embarrassment and greatly reflect on the school's standards...and for good schools, pride is a really huge factor.

RexZShadow said:

The second time with the kendo club wasn't really to recruit but to attack the other club. Coz its a magic school there 2 club that deals with sword play, one that use magic and one that doesn't so you can kinda see the tension that occurs when you have two conflicting clubs. One clubs runs in to ruin the other's demo.

I understand how clubs can have such animosity between them, but again, this makes me question school's standard and professionalism. An outright display to the public of the feud between them is just, to put it bluntly, childish. Moreover, if anything, it would merely deter people from joining their clubs. (If it's shown later that more people are excited about joining them, then ... ... ...) And given their age, (they're all above 17, right?) more self-discipline in them is expected.

Sure, no drama would make it boring, but I just felt more complicated problems could've been brought up. Something that isn't prevalent in ordinary schools (ordinary not in the sense of low-tier, but ordinary as in something that can occur in the real world), something within the lines of how their standard was shown to have been, and how the use of brains and tactics seems to be more expected here what with the setting given.

helloworIdApr 25, 2014 8:45 PM

Apr 25, 2014 8:39 PM

#624

RosyXkid

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Jul 2010

966

What the hell Miyuki are you trying to seduce your brother.
Miyuki is a tease...and woah he was just staring like meh...
Lewd Miyuki though...pretty body
That action is great
Clip anger boy I am so into this.

Apr 25, 2014 8:55 PM

#625

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Oct 2013

348

helloworId said:
snip

Sorry I mean its a common senerio in Anime, pretty girl gets mobbed by people who want her to join their club to make her a figure ahead to attract other people if anything. Also her blazer came down due to been pulled out of the mob.

And its not a prestigious school like what your thinking, your thinking of a rich school where only rich people can join. This is a magic school, its anyone with magic ability can apply and get in, they don't have to be from rich or prestigious familys. So its more like a normal high school just everyone can use magic.

And its high school, since in Asia middle and high school are 3 year each rather than 2 and 4 they are 15-17/18. As for why the incident with kendo club go so big its kinda of the whole weed/bloom thing, basically like I said the kendo club use magic and the other club don't so the kendo club are blooms and other is weed. They look down on them so they try to act tough to challenge them to a match in sword skill. However it turns out they other club that don't rely on magic is better at pure sword skill and the guy trying to show off got beaten and couldn't live it down and used magic to attack. Which violate the school rule and thats why Tatsuya jumped in. If you think about it thats pretty common thing to happen in real life. Like a bully trying to act tough get beat up in front of his friend so he pulls out a weapon.

Also its anime they have to have conflict to make shit interesting XD

Apr 25, 2014 9:15 PM

#626

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RexZShadow said:

Sorry I mean its a common senerio in Anime, pretty girl gets mobbed by people who want her to join their club to make her a figure ahead to attract other people if anything. Also her blazer came down due to been pulled out of the mob. Her blazer came down due to one of them pulling it down. You can see it in 17:16 or somewhere around there. It's before Tatsuya interferes.

...

And its high school, since in Asia middle and high school are 3 year each rather than 2 and 4 they are 15-17/18. I looked up Tatsuya's age on wikia to see how old the freshmen are. On wikia it said 17, but I guess maybe the wikia's wrong. As for why the incident with kendo club go so big its kinda of the whole weed/bloom thing, basically like I said the kendo club use magic and the other club don't so the kendo club are blooms and other is weed. They look down on them so they try to act tough to challenge them to a match in sword skill. However it turns out they other club that don't rely on magic is better at pure sword skill and the guy trying to show off got beaten and couldn't live it down and used magic to attack. Which violate the school rule and thats why Tatsuya jumped in. If you think about it thats pretty common thing to happen in real life. Like a bully trying to act tough get beat up in front of his friend so he pulls out a weapon.

All right, if it's the case that one of them didn't have magic cuz they're Weeds, then I guess that's a little more reasonable. I didn't catch that they were Weeds though, so this was good to know. (I thought the non-magic club could've also been Blooms, which IMO, would've been more interesting)

And it's precisely that--"it's a common thing to happen in real life". This seems to be like a sophisticated world set in the future a century ahead of us...such trivial problems should've been long outgrown of.

RexZShadow said:

And its not a prestigious school like what your thinking, your thinking of a rich school where only rich people can join. This is a magic school, its anyone with magic ability can apply and get in, they don't have to be from rich or prestigious familys. So its more like a normal high school just everyone can use magic.

No, I meant prestigious schools as in good schools where people get to go due to their own merits and proven qualities, not the ones where you're accepted just because you're rich.

RexZShadow said:

Also its anime they have to have conflict to make shit interesting XD

Yes, sure...I just had hoped they created more complicated and interesting problems than these mundane ones...especially since on top of not only being a school about sciency-magic, this whole anime is set in the future.

Thanks for your clarifications, though.

Apr 25, 2014 9:24 PM

#627

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Oct 2013

348

Well its explained more in ep4, but the clubs are divided to magic based and none magic based. And it causes a lot of tension between weed and bloom coz weed have lower magic abiliy (they can use magic, its not that they can't they just lot weaker at it than blooms, so they get basically no attention from teacher due to lack of teacher for magic) So yes while bloom can be in non magic based clubs, maybe something like lit club where there won't be a magic based one lol, but if there existed a magic based club a bloom would probbaly join that coz they be better at it.

Like I said they get in to the school coz they can use magic, the ability to use magic is rare and thats the sole requirement to get in to magic high. A written test on magic and practical test on magic. So not the prestigious your thinking of.

And your welcome.

Apr 25, 2014 10:08 PM

#628

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418

krownklown said:
First of all I am not trivializing anything.

You say that, but I hope you understand that by saying “it’s moot” and “it’s [just] anime” amongst other things right after that that you DO trivialize the issues we are trying to discuss. Nidhoeggr posted a link to a fantastic post by JesuOtaku, a writer for ANN regarding this whole deal. Again, I’m still sticking to the idea that any sort of fiction is at the very least a projection of the author’s thoughts given verbal form and that whatever universe was created was how the creator wanted it. Please take your time to read it because it’s articulated far better than I can ever hope to emulate.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4227609#4227609

krownklown said:
But whatever, the point stands anyone criticizing Incest but supporting Yaoi/Yuri is kind of a hypocrite.

Did you just equate homosexuality to incest? What the hell? Those are two separate things that have their own dialogue to deal with.

krownklown said:
Hell why are we even talking about this again. Its not like the author of Mahouka even has the balls to pull off an incest pairing.

I think this one blog post put it best regarding the author never pulling off an incest pairing.

http://thecartdriver.com/irregular-at-magic-high-school-episode-3-this-probably-wont-last-long/

It’s a sales issue, not a plot issue: “It’s the purity complex. Girls who fawn over a beta male who never acts stay pure. Girls who unwillingly get groped are pure because they didn’t want to get groped.

Tatsuya is not that. Tatsuya is a gentlemen. He is confident and calm with women who always knows what to say. He doesn’t make advances but that’s not because he stutters. He’s just perfect at dealing with them. He can’t have sex with this one girl who gropes him because it’s his sister and he’s a man of dignity. This way carefully keeps the purity complex intact while not creating one of the previous two archetypes. It’s a clever workaround. You can’t have sex with God himself.”

The whole purity thing is important to quite a few people who actually buy the LNs. If Miyuki ever commits, sales will, without a shadow of a doubt, plummet, and the publisher certainly doesn’t want that to happen.

RexZShadow said:

Valid point but there something people nit picking about coz its not possible in real life and all that crap, the point of its anime and its video game (when used properly) means its fiction it doesn't have to follow the strick rules of reality, you can bend the rules to do w/e you need to get shit done. Like people don't quesiton why magic exist. I mean its fiction don't have to get all worked up over certain stuff like you would in real life.

Arguing over the mechanics of a world is prolly the least of its problems. What I'm referring to is the incestuous themes, the discrimination, the portrayal of other East Asian races. Those are the things we're focusing on.

wrenchbreadApr 25, 2014 10:18 PM

Apr 25, 2014 10:39 PM

#629

***>> Click here and help feed a hungry hungry Zerg in need! (￣﹃￣✿) <<***

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348

The post by JesuOtaku make sense but how do I put this, he basically putting a lot of sub conciously like its a concious decision and making it too black and white like its all a conspircy. Most authors writing fantasy will write a story they think works and is cool. Could there be lot of sub text? sure because we don't live in a vacuum, we are effected by the outside world so our point of view.

Why is the other East Asian race protrayaled as the bad guys like in code geas (speically china) coz Jap been fighting with the chinese for a while now, if you grow up in japan chances are you exposed to lot of anti- chinese news, so when you writing a story short based on real life the most logical pick be china as enemy because they kinda have been jap's enemy for a while now.
Same thing with the discrimination.

As for the incest its can go both ways but you can't claim one or the other. Yes it be author have same fantasy about the subject of incest but in the story the reason is really well explained. So can you say the reason is excuse? or its just a part of the story? I mean lot of stuff are just part of the story coz it makes it more interesting doesn't mean the author is trying to shoe horn in some fantasy for a specific audience.

Apr 25, 2014 10:43 PM

#630

Ckan

Offline

Mar 2008

24335

RexZShadow said:
Why is the other East Asian race protrayaled as the bad guys like in code geas (speically china) coz Jap been fighting with the chinese for a while now, if you grow up in japan chances are you exposed to lot of anti- chinese news, so when you writing a story short based on real life the most logical pick be china as enemy because they kinda have been jap's enemy for a while now.
Same thing with the discrimination.

Not disagreeing with your actual argument, but I don't believe this part to be true.

Apr 25, 2014 10:54 PM

#631

***>> Click here and help feed a hungry hungry Zerg in need! (￣﹃￣✿) <<***

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Oct 2013

348

Ckan said:

RexZShadow said:
Why is the other East Asian race protrayaled as the bad guys like in code geas (speically china) coz Jap been fighting with the chinese for a while now, if you grow up in japan chances are you exposed to lot of anti- chinese news, so when you writing a story short based on real life the most logical pick be china as enemy because they kinda have been jap's enemy for a while now.
Same thing with the discrimination.

Not disagreeing with your actual argument, but I don't believe this part to be true.

Apr 25, 2014 11:03 PM

#632

Ckan

Offline

Mar 2008

24335

RexZShadow said:

Ckan said:

RexZShadow said:
Why is the other East Asian race protrayaled as the bad guys like in code geas (speically china) coz Jap been fighting with the chinese for a while now, if you grow up in japan chances are you exposed to lot of anti- chinese news, so when you writing a story short based on real life the most logical pick be china as enemy because they kinda have been jap's enemy for a while now.
Same thing with the discrimination.

Not disagreeing with your actual argument, but I don't believe this part to be true.

Certainly, you could interpet it that way, but

Apr 26, 2014 1:53 AM

#633

Lacertoss

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Jul 2013

226

krownklown said:

Lacertoss said:
God, I urge people that actually like this to watch Mawaru Penguindrum to see the difference between a good approach to incestuos themes in a fictional work and pure fan-service to please creepy otaku.
If it wasn't for the crappy incest I probably would have give this a 5. Bad incest approach drop it to a 3, tho. Still won't drop it because readers tell me it's going to get better, but it's getting harder and harder to believe.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Peng Drum is another one of those crappy not related by blood shows, hell not even the brothers are related by blood.

Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and a handful of others are the few shows that actually try to deal with incest rather than oh not related by blood.

Also I have no problem with incest, especially in a fictional setting, I mean if you are going to ship a yuri/yaoi couple than its hypocritical to complain about incest.

Nope, you are wrong. There is blood relation incest in Penguindrum (there is even a kiss). Watch it again, this time paying attention, please. Hint: there are 2 one-sided incestual relations in the show.

Now, even if there were only the incest between non-blood related siblings, the theme would still be handled WAY better in Penguindrum than this. God, using the word "crap" and Pengu drum in the same sentence and implying that anything in Mahouka is better than in Penguindrum is a declaration of stupidity. Saying that Aki Sora handles incest better give me the strong urge to pierce my eyes with needles. Aki Sora is probably the worst piece of fictional work I've ever read that had incest as a theme. It is completely crap. Having a good take on incest relationship =/= having borderline hentai scenes with brother and sister fucking.
I don't mind incest. I think it's a disgusting kind of relationship IRL, but I don't really mind it in a fictional setting, as my adoration for Penguindrum proves. That is, as long as is good handled, not some kind of fanservice to creepy otaku, as I've said before.

LacertossApr 26, 2014 2:37 AM

Apr 26, 2014 4:14 AM

#634

Vocah

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Apr 2014

27

wrenchbread said:
It’s a sales issue, not a plot issue: “It’s the purity complex. Girls who fawn over a beta male who never acts stay pure. Girls who unwillingly get groped are pure because they didn’t want to get groped.

Tatsuya is not that. Tatsuya is a gentlemen. He is confident and calm with women who always knows what to say. He doesn’t make advances but that’s not because he stutters. He’s just perfect at dealing with them. He can’t have sex with this one girl who gropes him because it’s his sister and he’s a man of dignity. This way carefully keeps the purity complex intact while not creating one of the previous two archetypes. It’s a clever workaround. You can’t have sex with God himself.”

The whole purity thing is important to quite a few people who actually buy the LNs. If Miyuki ever commits, sales will, without a shadow of a doubt, plummet, and the publisher certainly doesn’t want that to happen.

Is this honestly a thing? This sounds so incredible stupid that it's hard to believe...

Apr 26, 2014 5:16 AM

#635

https://twitch.tv/animesenshi

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Jun 2013

436

Lacertoss said:

krownklown said:

Lacertoss said:
God, I urge people that actually like this to watch Mawaru Penguindrum to see the difference between a good approach to incestuos themes in a fictional work and pure fan-service to please creepy otaku.
If it wasn't for the crappy incest I probably would have give this a 5. Bad incest approach drop it to a 3, tho. Still won't drop it because readers tell me it's going to get better, but it's getting harder and harder to believe.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Peng Drum is another one of those crappy not related by blood shows, hell not even the brothers are related by blood.

Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and a handful of others are the few shows that actually try to deal with incest rather than oh not related by blood.

Also I have no problem with incest, especially in a fictional setting, I mean if you are going to ship a yuri/yaoi couple than its hypocritical to complain about incest.

Nope, you are wrong. There is blood relation incest in Penguindrum (there is even a kiss). Watch it again, this time paying attention, please. Hint: there are 2 one-sided incestual relations in the show.

Now, even if there were only the incest between non-blood related siblings, the theme would still be handled WAY better in Penguindrum than this. God, using the word "crap" and Pengu drum in the same sentence and implying that anything in Mahouka is better than in Penguindrum is a declaration of stupidity. Saying that Aki Sora handles incest better give me the strong urge to pierce my eyes with needles. Aki Sora is probably the worst piece of fictional work I've ever read that had incest as a theme. It is completely crap. Having a good take on incest relationship =/= having borderline hentai scenes with brother and sister fucking.
I don't mind incest. I think it's a disgusting kind of relationship IRL, but I don't really mind it in a fictional setting, as my adoration for Penguindrum proves. That is, as long as is good handled, not some kind of fanservice to creepy otaku, as I've said before.

Huh, okay I admit I forget about Natsume, but I don't see what exactly is so great about her depiction. Its one side so its not even incest in the first place. You know, what Aki Sora and Koi Kaze are. I find it funny you talk smack about Aki Sora, when basically the twin sister is basically a more screwed up version of Natsume that actually goes all the way.

I mean wtf are you even talking about, on the one hand you say I don't like incest, and then you claim to be an expert on what correct depiction of it should look like.

@wrench, this guy kind of proves my point, he flat out say I don't like incest in real life, but its anime so its okay; and generally I think this is the view most people have. And I am not trivializing the whole anime, I am trivializing incest in anime, that seems to be where we disagree. You seem to suggest that by me having an apathetic attitude towards incest I have somehow devalue the work, that is what it means to trivialize. I am merely downplaying one aspect of the work.

It is more than fair to compare homosexuality and incest and pedophilia (at its nature its an individual who loves kids, whether they act on that is another matter ), as they are all "non standard" forms of love, that have many detractors. I am not going to get into an argument about right or wrong with you, but objectively speaking they have many similarities.

But I grow weary of your whining, good day sir.

krownklownApr 26, 2014 5:28 AM

Apr 26, 2014 7:35 AM

#636

1lau

Offline

Nov 2010

2047

This was just as the captain said at the end:"Interesting" with the kendo and all
The sis-bro moment with the CAD adjustment was fantastic xD
Miyuki in her undies :P

Apr 26, 2014 7:39 AM

#637

SolviteWoTaberu

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Jan 2013

12227

This show doesn't suck because of incest.

This show sucks because it is boring and stupid.

Apr 26, 2014 7:43 AM

#638

EasyGo-er

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Jul 2013

2037

SolviteSekai said:
This show doesn't suck because of incest.

This show sucks because it is boring and stupid.

Okay okay, we get it you tsun ;)

Apr 26, 2014 8:17 AM

#639

sadfacelv

Offline

Nov 2013

221

Interesting who will he fight against after dominating all chicks and disriminators in school? Against russians? xD Kururugi seems to have red uniform or may be he is from another school? xD

Apr 26, 2014 8:20 AM

#640

Dragon_Slayer_X

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Aug 2012

2302

SolviteSekai said:
This show doesn't suck because of incest.

This show sucks because it is boring and stupid.

Doing the same thing again and again, bored again aren't you?

Apr 26, 2014 10:58 AM

#641

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May 2010

418

krownklown said:

@wrench, this guy kind of proves my point, he flat out say I don't like incest in real life, but its anime so its okay; and generally I think this is the view most people have. And I am not trivializing the whole anime, I am trivializing incest in anime, that seems to be where we disagree. You seem to suggest that by me having an apathetic attitude towards incest I have somehow devalue the work, that is what it means to trivialize. I am merely downplaying one aspect of the work.

http://forgif.me/system/image/3620/image.gif

No, she doesn't say that. Please read again. And look up the word trivialize. You're just playing with semantics at this point.

trivialize
triv•i•al•ize (ˈtrɪv i əˌlaɪz)

v.t. -ized, -iz•ing.
to cause to appear unimportant, insignificant, etc.

And I'm saying downplaying it when the discussion is essentially about that actually stifles the discussion. If you've nothing meaningful to say on that matter other than "it's no big deal," then you should probably stop right there.

krownklown said:
It is more than fair to compare homosexuality and incest and pedophilia (at its nature its an individual who loves kids, whether they act on that is another matter ), as they are all "non standard" forms of love, that have many detractors. I am not going to get into an argument about right or wrong with you, but objectively speaking they have many similarities.

It's not even about the right or wrong. To lump those subjects together under one nebulous banner of "non-standard forms of love" once again insults and trivializes (you sure love doing this) the fact that each one has a unique set of circumstances to contend with and are each their own beast. It's like saying apples, oranges, and bananas are all fruits which doesn't say shit about what they are other than they're all fruits. Good job ignoring everything that sets them apart from each other.

And you oughta figure out how ludicrous it is to say "if you support homosexuality then you oughta support incest."

Apr 26, 2014 11:14 AM

#642

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Oct 2013

348

I think the point is if your supporting one form of unconventional love but hate on other is kinda dumb since the whole point of supporting these thing is telling people to accept that people are different and have different preference. Its quiet hypcrytical to say homosexuality is ok but incest is wrong, which I think was the point Krown was trying to make.

Apr 26, 2014 12:20 PM

#643

_DoctorWho_

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May 2013

528

If only there waasnt any incest

Apr 26, 2014 1:06 PM

#644

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May 2010

418

RexZShadow said:
I think the point is if your supporting one form of unconventional love but hate on other is kinda dumb since the whole point of supporting these thing is telling people to accept that people are different and have different preference. Its quiet hypcrytical to say homosexuality is ok but incest is wrong, which I think was the point Krown was trying to make.

No, I know what point he's trying to make, and no, it's not hypocritical because there's something called nuance that you and him need to wrap your heads around. Without context and nuance for each of those subjects, all we're gonna get is you two doing a huge disservice to the ongoing dialogue that exists inside and outside of anime. Why not throw in bestiality for good measure? It's a non-standard form of love along with furries. Where do they fit in? Are you gonna get tell me they oughta be lumped into non-standard forms of love and they shouldn't have their own separate set of dialogue? Are you daft? The devil is in the details. Next you're gonna tell me that the distinction between people with different mental illnesses doesn't matter and that they're all crazy, and that's bullshit.

Apr 26, 2014 1:33 PM

#645