LSSJ_Gaming said: I should preface this by pointing out that the male vs female gaze/fantasy argument is a bit of a contentious topic in feminist theory as sometimes these arguments can essentialize elements of a work of fiction by gendering certain elements of fiction, even if they are present in media made for the opposite gender demographic as well. There is a lot of complexity in these discussions, but for simplicity I will use these concepts for the sake of argument. Tagging "feminist theory" to it doesn't legitimize it as an argument. Sex-positive feminist views would be contrast to your take quite a bit. LSSJ_Gaming said: Most shows aimed at a female target demographic at least in Japanese anime, do not actively do this same thing of overly objectifying the sexual traits of the characters involved. There are way less instances of gratuitous shots that turn the subject into a sex object as there tends to be more focus on the emotional and personal connection in relationships. There are way less non-consensual scenes of borderline sexual assault and harassment. The way stuff like shirtless scenes are drawn for male characters are in no way remotely comparable as they don't really stick too long or zoom in to the chest all that much. They're generally drawn in less level of detail than breast/butt shots are in stuff aimed at guys as well. They just aren't that comparable in terms of how they portray sexual traits generally speaking if we are going at this via a male vs female gaze lens. Because females like different things than males that they fetishize. The male characters except when shota seem always be tall and often with large hands which they make clear over and over. Females usually are more drawn to the lower torso abs or not, not the chest. The chest is more often what males focus on in other males, only certain females like focus on male pectorals. The male characters also often give some sort of seductive gaze which seems as much if not even more common than with female characters. Even in relatively recent ecchi shows Ive seen when they are more like older style ecchi they are very sexual with both sexes. Eiyuu Kyoushitsu females were censored with nippleless breasts (Im not sure if it got an uncensored release later or not) and you only see their asses from a side shot when nude but the males were shown full areola and bare asses covered in nothing but a small piece of fabric covering their assholes centre of screen. In Temple you see the girls in bras and panties while the male protagonist is shown fully nude fit body and in one scene the girls comment on him being well hung. I think you are just pushing gender stereotypes onto genres assuming who the audience really is. Just because you dont see comments of females as much doesnt mean females arent watching, because they want to avoid being harassed by people against these things "how could you like this? How dare you!" kind of stuff LittleOwlbear said: The assaults in gay manga and anime became almost non-existent in the last years. Tasogare Out Focus was just previous season had a fetishistic sexual assault due to delirium scene. Even the cutesy Tadaima, Okaeri had heavily implied animalistic urges to sexually assault, though it didn't go to that point but it seemed to me how fearful omegas are it was suggested alphas rape omegas as part of that world and it's just socially accepted because it's their nature to lose their self control. Cherry Magic while it did not have sexual assault it did seemingly fetishize it all the same using a fakeout early on. So the change seems to be more about change to characterization not eliminating pandering to that kind of fetish to some degree entirely. LSSJ_Gaming said: I am generalizing here based on common arguments. Of course sexual content made for women exists, but from my experience it isn't as often shoehorned in to stories where sex and relationships aren't the main focus in much the same way as content made for men does. Ojou to Banken-kun had armed sexual assault in a fetishy way demographic shojo, genre romance. |
traedDec 11, 2024 1:11 PM
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| There is a zeitgeist of men holding power over women. Punch down bad, punch up good. |
Reply to mo_lave
There is a zeitgeist of men holding power over women.
Punch down bad, punch up good.
Punch down bad, punch up good.
| @mo_lave And doesnt even have anything to do with power here except people wanting to feel powerful by telling others what they can and can not do in their self expression and media consumption. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| I might be the dumb one on this but what is female fantasy and what are some of the anime that fulfill it? |
Reply to JaniSIr
@LSSJ_Gaming That's a convenient categorization, because sex and relationships are sort of the main focus of the average female targeted media, so that excludes approximately everything 🌶.
| @JaniSIr No it’s not, what? Booktok books aren’t the only books for women, you know. |
| (°<°) <(KA-KAW KA-KAW!) |
Reply to TRC_Randy
I might be the dumb one on this but what is female fantasy and what are some of the anime that fulfill it?
| @TRC_Randy This video might help you out!! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XRvv2vPj8pM&pp=ygUTbWFsZSB2cyBmZW1hbGUgZ2F6ZQ%3D%3D |
| (°<°) <(KA-KAW KA-KAW!) |
Reply to Confetti112
@JaniSIr No it’s not, what? Booktok books aren’t the only books for women, you know.
| @Confetti112 well obviously, the bodice ripper genre was popular before tiktok was a thing! |
| Probably because the complaints are mostly coming from women. |
 |
Reply to Auron
@BlueMaho
Actual BL is a very niche genre still, and it is predominantly by women for women, so it wouldn't be very expected for female gaze-ey elements to be criticized.
It'd be like wondering why the controversial elements in galgames (dating sim visual novels) aren't criticized, because it's exactly the thing the consumerbase wants and no one else cares enough to consume it.
I would argue, and I notice that @thewiru already touched on some of it, that that's not because female gaze elements are less present than male gaze in media, but simply the fact that men and women are into different things. There aren't much gratitutious shots of men's crotches, because that's not exactly gratifying to women in a comparable manner that its counterpart may be for men.
I don't think the trademark quality of female gaze media is that it overly sexualizes male characters in the in-your-face manner one is used to seeing, but rather that it overly romanticizes them. The male characters basically act as though their world revolves around the mc, they are infinitely committed, unwaveringly dedicated, sensual and in tune with their emotions while still being masculine (in the sense of protective) and heroic, selfless to the point of self-sacrificlal, and see nothing else but their happiness basically. Otome love interests are about as unrelatable (and antipathy-inducing) to a straight male audience as harem love interests are to a straight female audience really. Both male gaze and female gaze tend to showcase characters that are idealized in one way or another just according to the different dimensions that each sex prioritizes.
I think this meme kinda gets at this point as well:
Actual BL is a very niche genre still, and it is predominantly by women for women, so it wouldn't be very expected for female gaze-ey elements to be criticized.
It'd be like wondering why the controversial elements in galgames (dating sim visual novels) aren't criticized, because it's exactly the thing the consumerbase wants and no one else cares enough to consume it.
LSSJ_Gaming said:
Most shows aimed at a female target demographic at least in Japanese anime, do not actively do this same thing of overly objectifying the sexual traits of the characters involved. There are way less instances of gratuitous shots that turn the subject into a sex object as there tends to be more focus on the emotional and personal connection in relationships. There are way less non-consensual scenes of borderline sexual assault and harassment. The way stuff like shirtless scenes are drawn for male characters are in no way remotely comparable as they don't really stick too long or zoom in to the chest all that much. They're generally drawn in less level of detail than breast/butt shots are in stuff aimed at guys as well. They just aren't that comparable in terms of how they portray sexual traits generally speaking if we are going at this via a male vs female gaze lens.
Most shows aimed at a female target demographic at least in Japanese anime, do not actively do this same thing of overly objectifying the sexual traits of the characters involved. There are way less instances of gratuitous shots that turn the subject into a sex object as there tends to be more focus on the emotional and personal connection in relationships. There are way less non-consensual scenes of borderline sexual assault and harassment. The way stuff like shirtless scenes are drawn for male characters are in no way remotely comparable as they don't really stick too long or zoom in to the chest all that much. They're generally drawn in less level of detail than breast/butt shots are in stuff aimed at guys as well. They just aren't that comparable in terms of how they portray sexual traits generally speaking if we are going at this via a male vs female gaze lens.
I would argue, and I notice that @thewiru already touched on some of it, that that's not because female gaze elements are less present than male gaze in media, but simply the fact that men and women are into different things. There aren't much gratitutious shots of men's crotches, because that's not exactly gratifying to women in a comparable manner that its counterpart may be for men.
I don't think the trademark quality of female gaze media is that it overly sexualizes male characters in the in-your-face manner one is used to seeing, but rather that it overly romanticizes them. The male characters basically act as though their world revolves around the mc, they are infinitely committed, unwaveringly dedicated, sensual and in tune with their emotions while still being masculine (in the sense of protective) and heroic, selfless to the point of self-sacrificlal, and see nothing else but their happiness basically. Otome love interests are about as unrelatable (and antipathy-inducing) to a straight male audience as harem love interests are to a straight female audience really. Both male gaze and female gaze tend to showcase characters that are idealized in one way or another just according to the different dimensions that each sex prioritizes.
I think this meme kinda gets at this point as well:
| @Auron_ I didn't read a word you wrote but I don't get that "meme", otome games are a type of visual novel so contrasting them with visual novels makes no sense, the "visual novel" example is of a bishoujo game and should have been labeled as such in order to at least make sense on a basic level. |
        |
| Because most people who complain about the first are the target audience for the second. It's simple, isn't it? |
 |
Reply to kutuya
@Auron_ I didn't read a word you wrote but I don't get that "meme", otome games are a type of visual novel so contrasting them with visual novels makes no sense, the "visual novel" example is of a bishoujo game and should have been labeled as such in order to at least make sense on a basic level.
| @kutuya I'm not the maker of the meme, anyone who is not an autist can infer that what they mean is otome vs galge |
 |
Reply to Auron
@kutuya
I'm not the maker of the meme, anyone who is not an autist can infer that what they mean is otome vs galge
I'm not the maker of the meme, anyone who is not an autist can infer that what they mean is otome vs galge
| @Auron_ I knew you didn't make it, also an autistic person literally inferred that in the post you're replying to, it's reasonable to criticize it regardless. |
|
| Welcome to earth where double standard is the norm because people got less brain cell than an amoeba. And it today´s society every one seams to have such a boring useless life they need to shake a stick at the cloud for ANY thing. Instead of just either watch or not and shut the fuck up. And when you tell them they complain to much they feel the need to argue more. |
LittleOwlbear said: I think you misunderstand both feminist theory and sex positivity. These two are not exclusive since you can portray non-objectifying attractiveness and sexual acts and portray someone as a person first. That's usually not done with harems, ecchi etc that have a male target audience. These aren't people. You can't objectify what is already an object. In fact people themselves are objects, just not mere objects. I was mostly focusing on the matter of clothing designs and skin exposure when writing my message. I prefer characterization over just pure imagery since knowing the character is part of the appeal, which I don't find only visual appealing in itself alone but this is a visual medium and there is nothing wrong with some things placing more focus on visuals. I could list more but I can't recall everything I've seen. What about Kill la Kill? The guys were portrayed as sexually as the girls. Also there was comedic muscular male nudity in Yuusha ga Shinda. Anyway as I was implying without any real data of Japanese viewership and international viewership by gender we don't really know who the audience is and sometimes it's really not clear what mangaka or directors were thinking. LittleOwlbear said: That's Tasogare, the others were absolute snore fests. Yes, Sasaki and Miyano, Cherry Magic and so on are... they are nice, they are okay. I dropped all those after three episodes. They don't dare building up anything complex and something that could be interpreted more "troubled" by some watchers without just being sexualized assault. It's the same with some western books and series. Also appealing to a fetish (or what you believe one could be) doesn't make media interesting or complex of course ... and what do you expect from an omega-verse in case of the other anime. So I'm really hoping for The Summer Hikaru died. I only found Sasaki & Miyano particularly boring. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
The only criticism people gave is they didn't like how she was able to easily master the elements outside of Wind as a child.
The only criticism people gave is they didn't like how she was able to easily master the elements outside of Wind as a child.
I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child?
BilboBaggins365 said:
As for Carol Danvers, I can't honestly comment since all I know from her is a few scenes out of the film, and yeah that doesn't paint the typical picture I like in my physically strong male heroes. Though I guess I would need to see the film to see if that is the case throughout. Still I would criticized her actions if she was a male character regardless.
As for Carol Danvers, I can't honestly comment since all I know from her is a few scenes out of the film, and yeah that doesn't paint the typical picture I like in my physically strong male heroes. Though I guess I would need to see the film to see if that is the case throughout. Still I would criticized her actions if she was a male character regardless.
I haven't seen the movie either, though for some scenes people posted here and there she seemed to have a "toxic personality"... and also there's a scene where she beats a guy for no reason, which is... rude.
That being said, there could also easily have some small degree of misogyny in there: I could 100% imagine a dozen of videos complaining if she did something similar to that scene on Man of Steel where Superman fucks some guy's truck.
LSSJ_Gaming said:
While these sort of complaints against female characters who have these traits tend to be less common in the anime community, they still without a doubt exist if you look at the wider media landscape
While these sort of complaints against female characters who have these traits tend to be less common in the anime community, they still without a doubt exist if you look at the wider media landscape
I would argue that they are very rare here.
If something I would argue that the problem is the opposite: Most of the female characters that are successful with the battle-shounen crowd are essentially male characters in every aspect, except gender.
thewiru said: I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child? Korra was like half his age, when she could bend three of the four elements. Aang needed around a year of training and even then the series was pretty frank that Aang hadn't mastered Fire Bending, and that even his Earth Bending needed work by the time he faced Ozai. That said, I actually don't care about this criticism that much (Aang learned faster than Roku), characters can have different progressions if it's narratively interesting. And having Korra, be some genius with the other elements, I actually think is fine, if they went harder on her struggles with her Air Bending. To me that was the issue. I didn't like how that was resolved in the show. That being said, there could also easily have some small degree of misogyny in there: I could 100% imagine a dozen of videos complaining if she did something similar to that scene on Man of Steel where Superman fucks some guy's truck. I never got the impression DC fans liked Man of Steel. People complained pretty heavily how needlessly edgy/depressing it was compared to what a first Superman film should be. Still of course there are hypocrites, however, I can throw that around as well, because I have seen many feminists condemn traditionally toxic masculine behavior in men, however exalt it in women. Often I feel, this leads to misunderstandings of the appeal of certain traditional male archetypes, and then leads to poor execution, when writing it in a female lens. Like this even comes down to why do some men enjoy "power fantasies"? I often find women focus on the act of having power, rather I think for a lot of men it's about having power to do good/protect those people, or the things you care about. Regardless, this idea that male fans can't tolerate outspoken, loud mouthed or even rude female characters, I just find hard to take seriously when you have entire writing archetypes dedicated to female characters like that, within this medium. At the very least, outside of arrogant, hot headed (depends on context), which are traits I don't find attractive in male characters either, literally every other trait LSSJ named I actually like in female characters. Anecdotal however, also true of my male friends' preferences too. The whole physically tall, strong and intimidating women is pretty commonly fetishized, if anything. |
BilboBaggins365Dec 12, 2024 9:11 PM
Reply to JaniSIr
@Confetti112 well obviously, the bodice ripper genre was popular before tiktok was a thing!
| You: Guys men are so oppressed because they called me poopoo pants online 😭 Afghanistan: |
| (°<°) <(KA-KAW KA-KAW!) |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child?
I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child?
Korra was like half his age, when she could bend three of the four elements. Aang needed around a year of training and even then the series was pretty frank that Aang hadn't mastered Fire Bending, and that even his Earth Bending needed work by the time he faced Ozai.
That said, I actually don't care about this criticism that much (Aang learned faster than Roku), characters can have different progressions if it's narratively interesting. And having Korra, be some genius with the other elements, I actually think is fine, if they went harder on her struggles with her Air Bending. To me that was the issue. I didn't like how that was resolved in the show.
That being said, there could also easily have some small degree of misogyny in there: I could 100% imagine a dozen of videos complaining if she did something similar to that scene on Man of Steel where Superman fucks some guy's truck.
I never got the impression DC fans liked Man of Steel. People complained pretty heavily how needlessly edgy/depressing it was compared to what a first Superman film should be. Still of course there are hypocrites, however, I can throw that around as well, because I have seen many feminists condemn traditionally toxic masculine behavior in men, however exalt it in women. Often I feel, this leads to misunderstandings of the appeal of certain traditional male archetypes, and then leads to poor execution, when writing it in a female lens.
Like this even comes down to why do some men enjoy "power fantasies"? I often find women focus on the act of having power, rather I think for a lot of men it's about having power to do good/protect those people, or the things you care about.
Regardless, this idea that male fans can't tolerate outspoken, loud mouthed or even rude female characters, I just find hard to take seriously when you have entire writing archetypes dedicated to female characters like that, within this medium.
At the very least, outside of arrogant, hot headed (depends on context), which are traits I don't find attractive in male characters either, literally every other trait LSSJ named I actually like in female characters. Anecdotal however, also true of my male friends' preferences too. The whole physically tall, strong and intimidating women is pretty commonly fetishized, if anything.
BilboBaggins365 said: Still of course there are hypocrites, however, I can throw that around as well, because I see many feminists condemn traditionally toxic masculine behavior in men, however exalt it in women. I felt the same back in the day. It gave me the impression that they thought masculinity was some kind of gnosis and that men were like the demiurge. BilboBaggins365 said: Regardless, this idea that male fans can't tolerate outspoken, loud mouthed or even rude female characters, I just find hard to take seriously when you have entire writing archetypes dedicated to female characters like that, within this medium. It's somewhat tricky to use anime to talk about western culture wars, because tends to not follow many things that are complained about or defended in western media. Which is why I always found rude when people threw in the same bag both "western dudebro sexuality" (Think "Hooters" or something") "Japanese 'cult-of-beauty'(Bishoujo) sexuality" (Which back in the day you were called a faggot for liking). Hence why is tricky to use anime as an example: Yes, we do have loud outspoken female characters, but we also do have a lot of things that were never popular/liked in the west, like "Shinji-esque" protagonists instead of "Man-of-Action" protagonists. We are, but definition, different. |
Reply to Confetti112
You: Guys men are so oppressed because they called me poopoo pants online 😭
Afghanistan:
Afghanistan:
| @Confetti112 What the hell are you even talking about... Actually, I don't want to know. |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child?
I mean... didn't Aang literally master all the elements as a child?
Korra was like half his age, when she could bend three of the four elements. Aang needed around a year of training and even then the series was pretty frank that Aang hadn't mastered Fire Bending, and that even his Earth Bending needed work by the time he faced Ozai.
That said, I actually don't care about this criticism that much (Aang learned faster than Roku), characters can have different progressions if it's narratively interesting. And having Korra, be some genius with the other elements, I actually think is fine, if they went harder on her struggles with her Air Bending. To me that was the issue. I didn't like how that was resolved in the show.
That being said, there could also easily have some small degree of misogyny in there: I could 100% imagine a dozen of videos complaining if she did something similar to that scene on Man of Steel where Superman fucks some guy's truck.
I never got the impression DC fans liked Man of Steel. People complained pretty heavily how needlessly edgy/depressing it was compared to what a first Superman film should be. Still of course there are hypocrites, however, I can throw that around as well, because I have seen many feminists condemn traditionally toxic masculine behavior in men, however exalt it in women. Often I feel, this leads to misunderstandings of the appeal of certain traditional male archetypes, and then leads to poor execution, when writing it in a female lens.
Like this even comes down to why do some men enjoy "power fantasies"? I often find women focus on the act of having power, rather I think for a lot of men it's about having power to do good/protect those people, or the things you care about.
Regardless, this idea that male fans can't tolerate outspoken, loud mouthed or even rude female characters, I just find hard to take seriously when you have entire writing archetypes dedicated to female characters like that, within this medium.
At the very least, outside of arrogant, hot headed (depends on context), which are traits I don't find attractive in male characters either, literally every other trait LSSJ named I actually like in female characters. Anecdotal however, also true of my male friends' preferences too. The whole physically tall, strong and intimidating women is pretty commonly fetishized, if anything.
| @BilboBaggins365 I don't remember where I heard it, but someone described the difference between male and female power fantasy is that men want to be the heroes, and women the villains. It might have been a "She-Hulk" video, which is of course a certified trash show, so might not be representative. |
Reply to JaniSIr
@Confetti112 What the hell are you even talking about...
Actually, I don't want to know.
Actually, I don't want to know.
| @JaniSIr Teacher: Okay class we today will class we homework the test Sigma: Sigma Kid named Whirlpool 24.6-cu ft Side-by-Side Refrigerator with Ice Maker, Water and Ice Dispenser (Fingerprint Resistant Stainless Steel): |
| (°<°) <(KA-KAW KA-KAW!) |
Reply to JaniSIr
@BilboBaggins365 I don't remember where I heard it, but someone described the difference between male and female power fantasy is that men want to be the heroes, and women the villains.
It might have been a "She-Hulk" video, which is of course a certified trash show, so might not be representative.
It might have been a "She-Hulk" video, which is of course a certified trash show, so might not be representative.
| @JaniSIr I wouldn't really describe it like that? Women want to be heroes too however, there is this idea that many traditional male heroes are "domineering" rather than "protective". As a result, there are a lot of "strong" female characters (physically/power wise strong) that can come off as vindicative, petty etc because that is how some writers view male power fantasies. Which of course, fantasies like that exist, and hey aren't even uncommon among many male targeted works in this medium. I just don't find that rewarding personally, and even considering male fiction that loves that vindictiveness, I think that is still a minority to the typical I want to save people power fantasy, you usually get. |
BilboBaggins365Dec 12, 2024 9:20 PM
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