Why do anime fans excuse anime that uses light-skinned characters in a setting where they SHOULD be dark skinned?
| But there's no need to make any excuses there's literally nothing wrong about that and creators should be free to have their characters look however they want them to |
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A whole lot of nothing that cements the fact that you're not here to discuss. The problem with you is that you make statements yet don't back them up with facts or arguments. You simply want to tell others what to think. This is once again because you're not here to discuss, only to tell people that they're wrong and you're right. This is juvenile behaviour. So until you mature mentally there is no point in wasting more time on a teen/young adult in *that* stage of their lives. |
| because asian in general worship lighter skin. asian dream is to be as white as possible. source: am asian |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
| Why does this forum have almost 500 replies? |
| in just 4 days, this thread really outta control eh. for those of you who want to read it, better read it till the end, don't want any miscommunication there are few things that i really want to say before getting to the main discussion: i really respect the OP for being critical, and yes, MAL community is consisting of people from many different countries who holds different perspective too, some of them are critical like OP, some of them neutral, and some of them are passive. and that's fine, that's the beauty off diversity. the most important part of being critical is, you should not make assumption. to remove any assumption, we need to know their true intention when creating manga or anime. to knowing them, we need to analyze the mangaka value or perspective, to analyze them means that we need to know Japanese people perspective. Asian communication perspective and western communication perspective are two different thing that have to and should be separated, and that's another problem to be solve for another day (i'm studying communication, one of them is asian communication perspective, i have a journal that can explain the difference, if all of you'd want to read, i can give it) knowing two things are different, we need to understand that: - (A) can criticize (B) for being (B), from (A) perspective, but - (A) cannot criticize (B) for not being (A) especially when manga and anime is never ever aimed towards western audience in the first place. OP did nothing wrong, so was every single people that tried to voice their opinion, this is actually a very debatable stuff to be honest. but this is MAL, people here are never taken things seriously in the first place anyway, and so was i. but well now i'm bored. if OP really want a very wholesome answer, try using Quora, people there will take every question fairly serious. to the main topic 1. The link that the OP sent about The Tales of Earthsea (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/12/a_whitewashed_earthsea.html) is an article about the whitewashed American TV show adaptation of Earthsea, NOT the Anime adaptation of Earthsea. the article was made in 2004, the anime adaptation was in 2006. i don't know what worse, the op deliberately keep the link in there for the sake of strengthening it's point or the fact that no one correcting this. are OP really read this article, or just put it without reading?, i don't really know, but i've read it, and all i know is that the article didn't help your point that said this anime adaptation is "Ghibli Whitewashing" i did some research, and if you're really want to know the perspetive of the Earthsea author about the Anime adaptation (so you don't jump into any conclusion,) i give you the appropriate link: http://www.ursulakleguin.com/GedoSenkiResponse.html i've read the author response to Gedo Senki (Japanese title of Tales of Earthsea), and i can't find any single "Ghibli Whitewashing" that OP spoke of. but still, the Author still addressing the issue of color about this adaptation, let me phrase it for you: "The issue is different in Japan. I cannot address the issue of race in Japan because I know too little about it." "I am told that the Japanese audience perceives them differently. I am told that they may perceive this Ged as darker than my eye does. I hope so. Most of the characters look white to me, but there is at least a nice variation of tans and beiges." from this response, author kind of showing her disappointment, but even so, the author didn't want to jump into any assumption, she knows that she knows too little about Japanese people perspective. she didn't care about how non-Japanese people perceive this, because then again, anime and manga never aimed towards western audience, and even author knows that. and also, if you're really want to know the perspective of the Director of Gedo Senki, i beg you to read Goro Miyazaki's blog: http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/earthsea/blog/. (this is a English translated version, of course the real one are written in Japanese) and yes i've read the blog too, not for the sake to prove the OP fault, but because i like to read it, it''s the simplest thing to gain insight about something. and yet, from every single blog he writes, he never mention anything about changing skin color or just skin color in general at all. so called them a "Ghibli Whitewashing" is really a shameful and misleading assumption that they, as a creator ever being accused of. even the author of the Novel didn't want to accuse them that harshly. how can people take OP seriously when OP example is wrong and misleading. 2. for another anime that OP listed, to really understand them, i advice you to check their Blog too: http://ootakablogtl.tumblr.com (The Labyrinth of Magic author, Shinobu Otaka, fan-translated) http://abiume.blog.fc2.com/ (Children of the Wales author, Abi Umeda, not translated) i read Shinobu Otaka blog. it's the development of their manga from the very first serialization. and also, when they create something, they also keep their audience up to date about what the author do, even the author receive fan-mail, and responded to them. Author is human too, they are an artist, and artist are growing each day from the advice that they receive each day. and whoever says that you can't change author is actually a non-sense. you can change them, you can e-mail them, you can ask something that you don't know. and from that, you can really know what is their perspective, and why did they do such thing. but then again, you probably can't do any reasoning with their reason, because Western perspective and Asian perspective is different, and once again i said this: Anime and Manga never aimed towards Western audience in the first place that's from me actually. for real, this isn't going to fix everything, but i'm here just to address something, is that: assuming something is never good, is better to ask than assuming something, or even better, do some research to make sure your assumption is right. and for OP, you better remove "Ghibli Whitewashing" from there because that was false. i'm sorry if this too long, and i don't have time to respond, but yeah, writing like this shouldn't exist in MAL actually, i'd rather have a discussion about why Rem is the best girl (and all of you know that!), i just well, bored. |
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| Re:Zero represents the setting accuracy you want, as Subaru has Japanese features and a darker skin tone, and when he is in the Fantasy world, you can see that the characters in the fantasy world are not Japanese, as they don't have the Japanese facial features and have a white skin tone, but they also have all the colourful hair colours and eye colours, whereas Subaru doesn't. So OP, you cant have both, (unless its Re:Zero). You can either have accurate settings, so anime characters now have darker skin tone and Japanese features, and black/brown hair colour and brown eyes. Or you can have how anime is currently done, with the anime characters looking like white people, which has the colourful hair and eye colours. |
RuneRemDec 15, 2017 11:45 AM
NihilisticLoner said: What does most of the characters in Magi being white or barely tanned when they're from the desert (without even covering themselves) that's based primarily on the Middle East as a whole, convey? The answer to this question is, in one word, nothing. It is not meant to convey anything. It simply follows the convention. As for why light skinned characters are the convention in anime, I believe you answered this in your question yourself NihilisticLoner said: -The standard of beautify in Japan is light skin -Marketability -It costs less to draw and animate a dark-skinned character than it does a light-skinned character. What I believe you are forgetting is that Magi is just your run-of-the-mill shounen. It is not supposed to be hyper-realistic about how the climate of the setting should affect the skin colour of the character. Magi never claimed to be a realistic depiction of the middle-eastern people. The setting is just present as a secondary added attraction, a quirk, if you will. You're right, aesthetics is an important part of an anime, but that is mostly true for anime which rely on their atmosphere, say Mushishi or Texhnolyze. Something like Magi is not that much affected by the aesthetics. Magi isn't a Monster or a Mushishi or a Vagabond, neither does it claim to be. Magi is, first and foremost, a commercial anime. Light skinned characters, being relatable to the Japanese audience, is what sells, so that's what Magi delivers. As for why we fans don't see this as a problem? Well, that's because we are too busy exploring the various problems already present within the plot to point out the errors in the minor details. At the end of the day, one doesn't look for a diamond in a copper mine. Similarly, one does not look at a regular, commercial, shounen for a realistic character design depiction in accordance to the setting. |
| Just check my manga list if you want the anime scores... I'd mostly rate them the same unless there's any significant change to the plot. |
tookawaiii said: Y’all... why is everyone here is so mad about this thread when its true. I dont see why its so hard for people to understand this and just make so many excuses,just why aren’t characters that are ment to have black/dark skin tones WHITE? Some people on here are actual dumbasses,you be saying you dont excuse white washing but then say its okay for a character to be white when its ment to be dark. Like say,most anime represent japan now,yes most of the population is white but is isnt like there isnt any tanned/dark skinned people out there, If so why don’t big anime companies include them?like im pretty sure they have the budget to do so. Anyways while that is nearly completely off topic,STOP EXCUSING WHITE WASHING,also,some of you saying him&this thread is a bit racist or whatever,when y’all just hurt bc he’s stating the truth lmao Because this entire white/black conundrum, this concept of 'whitewashing', does not extend beyond the West. As a dark skinned Asian myself, skin colour was never a subject of social divide in most Asian countries. We have enogh divides with social strata, gender, economic status, as it is, please do not try to insert this extra colour divide in our society when it does not exist. Now why should the anime/manga industry consider this issue, when it clearly does not concern the majority of its audience, that is, Japan. Also, in a manga, from which you probably know the anime is adapted, if skin colour has to be added, it means a lot of extra shading for the mangaka, and also, expressions cannot be emphasised as well as it for a colourless character. Now tell me, why would a mangaka go through so much trouble to remedy such a non-existent problem. |
| Just check my manga list if you want the anime scores... I'd mostly rate them the same unless there's any significant change to the plot. |
NihilisticLoner said: That all makes sense. But I still feel a little doubtful about the relatability you mention. It's true that the race of characters has a psychological subconscious affect on the audience. But at the same time, if it was actually that big of a deal, why do there seem to be popular anime with dark skinned leads, like Afro Samurai, and Disney's Lilo and Stitch? I'm not sure about Disney's Lilo and Snitch (haven't watched it myself), but Afro Samurai is kind of based on an actual historical figure in Japan, Yasuke, the first (and most famous) black samurai. |
| Just check my manga list if you want the anime scores... I'd mostly rate them the same unless there's any significant change to the plot. |
| I just learned that there's a "Toggle Hide" button at the top of each thread which I can click so I don't have to look at it anymore. Congratulations, this is gonna be the first thread I am forced to use it on. Last thing, I am SO GLAD that Magi is the way it is since it has so many attractive characters which wouldn't be the case if they did what you are suggesting. I'm going to appreciate it so much more now. Fuck you and bye bye. |
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| Making all characters' skin colors approximately the same is simply the easier thing to do. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| It's because light skin is what the Japanese are used to. It's as simple as that. The Japanese don't give a shit about "diversity." They just make the characters look how they want them, and if they want them dark-skinned or light-skinned, that's what they want. It's not fueled by racism or anything. They just feel like it. |
| We need as much lewdness as we can possibly get. ~ Komine Sachi |
| This thread still going eh I am pretty sure the discussion has run its course at this point. Still you know you are going after an anime who's main character is Aladdin who lived in china in the original story. So honestly is his depiction that bad? Also I let anime slide because honestly we don't call x-washing more out in the West why should I hold the Japanese to a higher standard honestly so many are against white washing that they ignore that African actors can be casted in white roles (and are) in Shakespearian plays or BBC shows like Merlin that have black actress playing an insanely important figure from Arthurian mythology. For all the accusations of white washing they tend to ignore those examples. Why is this focus on just anime when many times improper representation doesn't get called out in the West the BBC is highly guilty of this. If the ultimate goal is to depict how the characters should look as you said then those depictions are more guilty. At least in animation especially in anime everything is so stylized that realism gets thrown out the door for me. Also even still If its immersion breaking for you thats fine but honestly some of us just don't see it that way nor find it even that poor of representation if we go by the standards of how anime characters are depicted. You make the assumption that everyone sees the character or representation the way you do I don't so I just don't even see it as whitewashing. Just like many here plain and simple we can't excuse it if we don't see it as that. So why don't we agree to disagree and close the thread because I think everyone has just stated their point and its going on repeat. |
BilboBaggins365Dec 15, 2017 4:43 PM
If you don't know what to say, it's probably because your assumptions never stood farther than what you initially approached. There could have many external reasons as to why a character has a specific colour on his skin. I can accept that at some limits a creator could have wanted a white skinned character because the creator thought that the character would be more appealing like that. I'm totally not denying this. But you're talking like if there were more reasons farther those points. Not just as a artistic concept, but more like a realistic concept. Like why an Indian character can't be tanned? You're instantly approaching the concept like if it was actually an issue, but in reality YOU have an issue. Anime doesn't. You're making an assumption: An Indian character must be tanned, or the skin of whatever character should match the location he comes from. First of all. Anime usually match the skin of characters with the locations they come from Example: https://www.quora.com/Who-are-some-Indian-anime-characters So visibly it never was an issue to begin with and is more like an exceptional phenomenon. It could be for an external reason, we should debate on each anime case by case, but I don't think it is really worth it as it's refer to my second point. But also trying too hard also lead to stereotype and it's not actually better that way Secondly, why is an anime character that has a coloured skin mismatching the location the character origins should matter? You argued that it's for realism and immersion... Really? Because you already said that hair colour is a feature of anime character that you don't mind because it's how anime is. And it's true. Anime has developed such designs and we now consider this as a characteristic of Japanese animation. If I'm going to ask any anime fans to imagine a new anime character, the results will all be somewhat similar with some recognizable feature like big eyes, weird hair design most of the time coloured and also 99% will also imagine a white character. Why? Because we see almost exclusively all anime characters with white skin in our anime. Skin colour has naturally developed on anime characters as being white by default and became an anime character's feature. In the end you're most likely contradicting yourself as accepting all anime characters features but a precise one. And as anime has already set some of these rules, a creator can always reuse these features (it's kinda the point if you want to create an anime) or a creator can also choose to make a more realistic setting with more realistic character designs. With also the fact that all anime are fictional, it's really hard to distinguish how an anime that tried to be a bit more realistic should feel more immersive than another anime that borrowed most Japanese animation features. It has more to do with how the anime plays its story and if we can connect with its world rather than progressively immerse ourselves in the world the more the realism predominate. Now it comes to your issue immersion, because visibly you clearly have an immersion issue with the matching of skin colour with character's origins more than any other Japanese animation feature. So if I clearly understand the only thing breaking your immersion in Magi is the skin colour of the characters and not literally everything nonsensical in the anime like magic, djinn and all that stuff. So realism is not actually your issue eh? It's clearly skin colour your issue then. I understand that you are from America and racism is part of your history, but the rest of the world don't see this the same way like you do. I could create a new thread and asking why anime fans are okay with anime characters having no nose and I would get the same thread as this. Because it's actually pointless and nobody actually care except the person who opened the thread. But what's irritating is that you make your assumptions while silently implying that if we're disagreeing with you, we're either lenient with racism or we apparently don't have brain cells because we can't agree with you. Your attitude is really arrogant and that makes us even more sick than the actual meaning of your thread. So why are we excusing whitewashing or some questionable choice of skin colour? We don't. We aren't excusing anything. We simply don't see this as an issue because unlike you, it doesn't plays on our immersion, but more importantly, we are watching anime and totally aren't expecting to see absolute realism in it. |
Hrybami said: An Indian character must be tanned I never said anything about Indians having to be tanned. Hrybami said: But also trying too hard also lead to stereotype and it's not actually better that way What do you mean? What stereotype? Hrybami said: Skin colour has naturally developed on anime characters as being white by default and became an anime character's feature. Whacky hair and eye color in anime is used to convey: red hair conveys that the character is a hot-head, blue eyes convey the character is calm. Light skin is not used to convey anything other than a character's nationality, or to make them more relatable, or to simply look appealing. Light skin color is commonly used in anime. It's not a "feature" of anime, because there are far too many dark skinned anime characters that still look very anime. So making light skinned characters is not necessarily a, "common style" so much as it's preference and marketing tactic. Hrybami said: but the rest of the world don't see this the same way like you do. I've constantly acknowledged that Japan is a homogeneous society that doesn't care about race. But that doesn't mean that I am not allowed to criticize the them for it. And there have been several people on this thread who have agreed with me. Hrybami said: not literally everything nonsensical in the anime like magic, djinn and all that stuff. That's because all of those things have a logic to them: They're a natural part of the world. The characters' skin color being mismatched, there's no logic to it. No explanation. Unlike Attack on Titan which explains the lack of race, which also brilliantly enhances the idea that most of humanity is gone. Magi doesn't do anything like that. It's nothing more than a commercial tactic. Hrybami said: But what's irritating is that you make your assumptions while silently implying that if we're disagreeing with you, we're either lenient with racism or we apparently don't have brain cells because we can't agree with you I literally never have implied anybody was racist, or stupid for not agreeing with me. I think people are stupid when they don't properly read the original post for context, or pay attention. Hrybami said: Your attitude is really arrogant and that makes us even more sick than the actual meaning of your thread. I seriously doubt anybody, including you, cares about anybody's arrogance online. This is the internet. People with unlikable personalities like me, are extremely common, including on MAL. If anybody, including you, was remotely bothered by my personality, you wouldn't even be talking with me right now: you would do the smart thing, and just ignore me. I despise ThatAnimeSnob with something that can't even be called a passion, even more than I hate people on MAL. I hate his videos. I hate him as a character. And I hate him as a person. So you know what I do? Nothing. I just ignore him. I don't watch his videos, I don't talk to him. And your situation, isn't any different: You don't like me. You don't seem to care about this thread. Probably 90% of the people who have replied to this thread, including you, barely even care about this topic, yet so many of you are constantly posting, constantly trying to argue and for what? You have made mindless assumptions about me (like thinking I think people are racist). Even your, "eh?" in your post implies challenging me. I think...you don't care about this thread. I think, you just want an excuse to shit on me. Which you can do by messaging me or commenting under my profile. My question to you is this: What are you trying to argue with me about? Because I think I acknowledged nearly everything you have said: -I have it under my profile description: I hate most people on MAL with a blood-filled passion, including you. I'm egotistic and stubborn when it comes to arguing, including right now. I have admitted several times on this thread that I'm an asshole. I have even said that I don't see people online as anything more than annoying AI, including you. -I know that Japan doesn't give a shit about race. I know that light skinned characters are more marketable and cheaper to make than dark skinned characters. -I know that this thread won't do jack shit for the industry. The only reason I'm talking with you is because I'm addicted to arguing with people on MAL. And I think most other people are too. Also, I'm bored. |
NihilisticLoner said: Hrybami said: An Indian character must be tanned I never said anything about Indians having to be tanned. Hrybami said: But also trying too hard also lead to stereotype and it's not actually better that way What do you mean? What stereotype? Hrybami said: Skin colour has naturally developed on anime characters as being white by default and became an anime character's feature. Whacky hair and eye color in anime is used to convey: red hair conveys that the character is a hot-head, blue eyes convey the character is calm. Light skin is not used to convey anything other than a character's nationality, or to make them more relatable, or to simply look appealing. Light skin color is commonly used in anime. It's not a "feature" of anime, because there are far too many dark skinned anime characters that still look very anime. So making light skinned characters is not necessarily a, "common style" so much as it's preference and marketing tactic. Hrybami said: but the rest of the world don't see this the same way like you do. I've constantly acknowledged that Japan is a homogeneous society that doesn't care about race. But that doesn't mean that I am not allowed to criticize the them for it. And there have been several people on this thread who have agreed with me. Hrybami said: not literally everything nonsensical in the anime like magic, djinn and all that stuff. That's because all of those things have a logic to them: They're a natural part of the world. The characters' skin color being mismatched, there's no logic to it. No explanation. Unlike Attack on Titan which explains the lack of race, which also brilliantly enhances the idea that most of humanity is gone. Magi doesn't do anything like that. It's nothing more than a commercial tactic. Hrybami said: But what's irritating is that you make your assumptions while silently implying that if we're disagreeing with you, we're either lenient with racism or we apparently don't have brain cells because we can't agree with you I literally never have implied anybody was racist, or stupid for not agreeing with me. I think people are stupid when they don't properly read the original post for context, or pay attention. Hrybami said: Your attitude is really arrogant and that makes us even more sick than the actual meaning of your thread. I seriously doubt anybody, including you, cares about anybody's arrogance online. This is the internet. People with unlikable personalities like me, are extremely common, including on MAL. If anybody, including you, was remotely bothered by my personality, you wouldn't even be talking with me right now: you would do the smart thing, and just ignore me. I despise ThatAnimeSnob with something that can't even be called a passion, even more than I hate people on MAL. I hate his videos. I hate him as a character. And I hate him as a person. So you know what I do? Nothing. I just ignore him. I don't watch his videos, I don't talk to him. And your situation, isn't any different: You don't like me. You don't seem to care about this thread. Probably 90% of the people who have replied to this thread, including you, barely even care about this topic, yet so many of you are constantly posting, constantly trying to argue and for what? You have made mindless assumptions about me (like thinking I think people are racist). Even your, "eh?" in your post implies challenging me. I think...you don't care about this thread. I think, you just want an excuse to shit on me. Which you can do by messaging me or commenting under my profile. My question to you is this: What are you trying to argue with me about? Because I think I acknowledged nearly everything you have said: -I have it under my profile description: I hate most people on MAL with a blood-filled passion, including you. I'm egotistic and stubborn when it comes to arguing, including right now. I have admitted several times on this thread that I'm an asshole. I have even said that I don't see people online as anything more than annoying AI, including you. -I know that Japan doesn't give a shit about race. I know that light skinned characters are more marketable and cheaper to make than dark skinned characters. -I know that this thread won't do jack shit for the industry. The only reason I'm talking with you is because I'm addicted to arguing with people on MAL. And I think most other people are too. Also, I'm bored. I feel that when you reply me you're always turning the table and act like if I was the one who brought the subject here. You are the one who are arguing over the skin tone of anime character of different ethnic groups. And you said that before: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1691443&show=279 If an anime is set in India, or a fantasy world based off of India, then I expect the characters to resemble Indians, because it makes sense. That's all the reasoning you gave to me when I asked why does the skin tone matter? I could let it pass if you weren't passionately trying to prove a point that does not hold. There's no reason for you to keep on discussing a point when you not only contradict yourself, but also blatantly choose arbitrarily what's logical/realistic and what's not. The only reason I can think of is that you actually hate people and just want to annoy them with your nonsense. The proof: you actually talked more about how you are cynical and how you perceive other users rather than to actually discuss the topic and answering to my post. The only argument you have to back you up is that there are logic behind some other anime features that skin tone doesn't have. No it DOESN'T. Anime girl with red hair conveys that the character is a hot-head is really far from being anything remotely logical. hair colour is just a damn symbolism. How is tagging a symbolism to a character's design realistic? So colouring hair according to symbollism is immersive, but colour skin tone for marketing break the immersion? Please, that's not a criticism. You just tilt your own bias and issues to the anime and present it like if the anime contains a fault, but you're the one that have an issue with this detail. The anime is not in the wrong for doing this. Also, Japan being homogeneous has nothing to do with how they agree to that. I live in one of the most multicultural city in the world and we don't care more about diversity than Japan. It's really just an American cultural thing. |
I completely agree, desserts need some chocolate love. No vanilla whitewashing  |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
NihilisticLoner said: Hrybami said: You are the one who are arguing over the skin tone of anime character of different ethnic groups. Yes. I haven't denied that. Hrybami said: If an anime is set in India, or a fantasy world based off of India, then I expect the characters to resemble Indians, because it makes sense. Yes. I said that. But I never said anything about Indians being tanned. Hrybami said: That's all the reasoning you gave to me when I asked why does the skin tone matter? I've literally been explaining, over and over again, why I think skin tone matters in my original post, and to my replies to countless people. Hrybami said: The proof: you actually talked more about how you are cynical and how you perceive other users rather than to actually discuss the topic and answering to my post. Just because I said that I am cynical, doesn't mean I'm not willing to discuss. It I wasn't willing to discuss, why have I been discussing with you? I've literally been quoting people, and responding to almost every part of their posts, like your's. So by literal definition, I am, technically, discussing. Hrybami said: Anime girl with red hair conveys that the character is a hot-head is really far from being anything remotely logical. That's right. It's not logical. I never said it was. Hrybami said: hair colour is just a damn symbolism. How is tagging a symbolism to a character's design realistic? See, now, that's the thing: the hair/eye color, isn't realistic, but it IS symbolism. I love symbolism. It doesn't matter if symbolism is illogical, what matters is that it CONVEYS something, that it doesn't just pander to people who want to self-insert themselves. But skin color is NOT symbolism. Now, if the characters were, say, blue skinned, that would be an actual artistic choice, AND be symbolism in some way. Hrybami said: So colouring hair according to symbollism is immersive, but colour skin tone for marketing break the immersion? Please, that's not a criticism. Why not? Why can't some illogical decisions in art still allow a viewer to be immersed, while other decisions, break that immersion? For example, people are fine with the characters in King's Game looking exaggerated. But the reason why King's Game destroys literally everybody's suspension of disbelief, is because the characters are so stupid, that it makes everybody question how that stupidity, fits into the context. Hrybami said: You just tilt your own bias and issues to the anime and present it like if the anime contains a fault, but you're the one that have an issue with this detail. The anime is not in the wrong for doing this. Yes. I have an issue with this detail. It's no different than person X having an issue with the plotholes in SAO, while person Y has no issue with those plotholes. Now am I biased? Eh, I'd say not, but I can see why someone would think that. Hrybami said: Also, Japan being homogeneous has nothing to do with how they agree to that. Um...yes it does. Because Japan almost entirely consists of Japanese people. Because of that, there are barely any minorities to ask for more representation in media. [quote=Hrybami message=53386786 I live in one of the most multicultural city in the world and we don't care more about diversity than Japan. It's really just an American cultural thing. This is my problem with most of the people who've replied to this thread: My issue with anime like Magi, isn't that they don't implement diversity. My issue with anime like Magi is that they based the setting off of culture, while refusing to make the characters skin colors fit into that culture. I barely care that most anime lack racial diversity, because those anime are set in Japan, where the non-Japanese population is extremely low. But if you're going to make an anime, basing its setting off of another culture, then I expect that anime to fully respect and embrace that culture, rather than Japan-izing it, resulting in a confusing product that does not know who its target audience is. Seriously, who are anime like Magi aimed for?: -The mainstream Japanese audience? That doesn't work, because the Middle East is too foreign. -A Middle Eastern audience? Again, there's the skin tone issue, but most importantly, there are barely any Middle Eastern in Japan. -A niche audience? Okay, but wouldn't that niche audience that is interested enough in Middle Eastern culture, ALSO want characters that have skin tones that resemble Middle Easterns? If the creators of Magi refused to properly implent dark skinned characters, then I would've preferred it if Magi was NOT set in the desert and based off of Middle Eastern culture. If Magi was set in modern Japan, fine! I wouldn't care. We're going nowhere if all you do is to nitpick on what you said and what you didn't. Because you just turn around with everything you say and you keep on contradicting yourself. It's totally pointless and I'm not going to continue my arguments if you're just going to dismiss what I say by: "No I said something else." Either you don't understand what we're saying to you or either you don't realize that you're contradicting yourself and you just reverse my questions to me without answering them. Your analogy with the plot holes in SAO doesn't work because we already established that a plot hole is bad for a story. Whether you like SAO despite the plot holes isn't really relevant because it's only comes down to personal appreciation. While in Magi, there's nothing that is already established that tells that a design element is bad. You made the assumption yourself and proclaimed that the characters should be dark skinned. In fact, you made your own criteria based on your bias and then judge the anime on them. This can't be a criticism because you're trying to prove something that never was established. If you were trying to prove a plot holes that could be fine, but you're trying to prove something that you alone judge is bad while we think it just doesn't matter at all. Because Magi is a freaking fantasy anime it never tried to depict a middle eastern culture. The mangaka only got the inspiration from it and never tried to fully represent this culture, otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy to begin with. Jeez... you don't understand that a creator has no duty to fully represent a culture when the show just borrows some element from that culture to create a fictional world. If you don't understand this, then you not only don't understand anime, but you also don't understand real life. And this thread is meaningless since it revolves all about your misunderstanding. |
| @Hrybami I don't understand how I'm nitpicking, or being biased: "unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something." I'm not being [b]prejudiced[b] towards Magi: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." By objective definition, I am not biased towards Magi: my opinion is not preconceived, and it IS based on actual reason. "because we already established that a plot hole is bad for a story" Some could argue that a plothole can enhance the story by leaving it to the viewer's imagination to fill in the gaps, or the mere existence of a plothole is fascinating. But I do agree that using plotholes was probably not the best analogy. "but you're trying to prove something that you alone judge is bad while we think it just doesn't matter at all." There are many people on this thread who have agreed that the mismatched skin tone in Magi isn't a good thing. I've already said this. "The mangaka only got the inspiration from it and never tried to fully represent this culture, otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy to begin with." The problem is, Magi doesn't just take, "inspiration" from Middle Eastern culture, it nearly copies it. The desert setting, the clothes, the architecture, the names, the characters that it bases itself off of, even the fantasy elements it takes from (Dijin). Why does it matter that much if it's fantasy? There are countless fantasy anime that are inspired by a culture, and fully embrace it, by making the characters' skin color match said culture. Avatar the Last Airbender, for instance, has a cast primarily consisted of Asians. Why? Because it takes inspiration from Asian culture. So as a result, you get these really rich fantasy anime. "that a creator has no duty to fully represent a culture" Of course a creator doesn't have a duty. They're free to do what they want. But how does that free them from criticism? "And this thread is meaningless since it revolves all about your misunderstanding." If you truly believe this thread is meaningless, why do you keep responding to me? There are points you haven't answered of mine, while I continuously respond to nearly everything you say: -What is the point in making the cast white, if it doesn't symbolize anything (as opposed to hair/eye color)? -Who is the target audience of Magi? It can't be the mainstream Japanese audience. It can't be a niche audience, because a niche audience would surely prefer the characters' appearances to better fit the culture it takes inspiration from. @hazarddex Only 2 characters in Magi have dark skin: The Middle East as a whole is consisted of a shit-load of variety of skin colors. From typical white, to a little tanned, to seriously dark. Like, go to Turkey. The Syrian refugees there I've seen all had incredibly dark skin. My friend's family is Persian, and they're really dark. I It's not like Japan where only a very small minority has dark skin. Now sure, it's a fantasy world, so obviously it's not going to be 100% realistic, but come on, if you're going to almost completely rip off an entire region's culture, just go all the way, like Avatar the Last Airbender. Otherwise, you end up with a half-assed product. @Holybaptiser Nihilism is a philosophy that declares life itself devoid of meaningless. It doesn't say people shouldn't care about life. Hell, I know it's pointless discussing/arguing with people on MAL. They're unreasonable, condescending, misrepresent peoples' points, don't pay attention, don't respond to important points others made. I just talk to people on MAL for the thrill of it. |
removed-userDec 17, 2017 10:32 PM
| This OP seems to care a whole lot about this despite having nihilistic as a part of his user name. What a pleb. |
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
| Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic is an anime with magic and takes place in a fictional world its not using the real world setting so why would you expect everything to work the same as the real world? and it does have dark skined characters.... better question is why does gundam 00 main character not have dark skin despite being specifically middle eastern....>_> same with mirai nikki's Minene Uryuu tans... japan can be a very sunny place but not all japanese are tanned. same with America. Edit: ok who pinged me then deleted their post >_> |
GrimAtramentDec 17, 2017 10:33 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
| LOL, why did this thread have 500+ replies? OP probably has a lot of free time replying to all these posts. |
| Probably because it's fiction and some suspension of disbelief is required. |
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NihilisticLoner said: @Hrybami I don't understand how I'm nitpicking, or being biased: "unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something." I'm not being [b]prejudiced[b] towards Magi: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." By objective definition, I am not biased towards Magi: my opinion is not preconceived, and it IS based on actual reason. You are nitpicking because you're inconsistent with what you're saying and you only take one sentence and isolate it to avoid discussing my reasoning in its context. Like that, your behaviour is closer to one of a troll when your goal is in part just to try to mess with the other user You're being biased because your cultural issue goes against the fundamental concept of anime as to how anime character are generally drawn and how the world of anime works in surrealist way in general. The preconceived opinion you made is that skin tone must obligatorily match with the origin of the character because of numerous reasons which fluctuate more often than the mood of Yuno in Mirai Nikki. The problem is that we all already acknowledge that the character skin in Magi is unrealistic, but you're literally forcing everyone to notice things beyond that and that doesn't work because we have a different background than you. Plus your arguments you stated never held water and are just external example such as yes hair colour may be unrealistic, but it's still logical because it conveys something. That tells absolutely nothing about skin colour and what it should convey. "The mangaka only got the inspiration from it and never tried to fully represent this culture, otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy to begin with." The problem is, Magi doesn't just take, "inspiration" from Middle Eastern culture, it nearly copies it. The desert setting, the clothes, the architecture, the names, the characters that it bases itself off of, even the fantasy elements it takes from (Dijin). It didn't tried to copy Middle Eastern culture since Magi is clearly not even close to be a copy of that place. They don't even take place in the same location, the same world and even not in the same universe. This can't be a problem because out of all things first, Magi is an anime and then it borrowed some similarity from middle east culture in order to build its story. Yet, you say this like if Magi was a depiction of a real world place and then the creator decided to remove some features in order to create the story. In other word that would be "whitewashing". But it's not because the anime has already established that the world is fictional so it can't be a depiction of our real world. Why does it matter that much if it's fantasy? There are countless fantasy anime that are inspired by a culture, and fully embrace it, by making the characters' skin color match said culture. Avatar the Last Airbender, for instance, has a cast primarily consisted of Asians. Why? Because it takes inspiration from Asian culture. So as a result, you get these really rich fantasy anime. Skin tone doesn't matter at all in fantasy and that's what I'm telling you since the beginning. A show can match whatever they want with the real world or at the opposite, it can be completely nonsensical and impossible to relate with our real world. The fundamental concept of fantasy is that it's perfectly "normal" for something to be incoherent. If you say that a fantasy world should fully embrace the culture it took its inspiration from, then your argument goes directly against the fundamental concept of fantasy. Therefore, the criticism can't be valid. "that a creator has no duty to fully represent a culture" Of course a creator doesn't have a duty. They're free to do what they want. But how does that free them from criticism? That doesn't free them from criticism, but an invalid criticism shouldn't affect the creator There are points you haven't answered of mine, while I continuously respond to nearly everything you say: -What is the point in making the cast white, if it doesn't symbolize anything (as opposed to hair/eye color)? Please pay attention to what I said. I already mentioned that white skin is a common feature and even a characteristic of Japanese animation (See post #490 for more details). So there aren't really a point in making the cast white other than following the already established trend. Character are drawn white in manga because it's easier to draw them like that. It doesn't need to convey or symbolize anything it's just an artistic aspect of manga. Beside that, when artists need to realistically draw a foreigners character they usually add some recognizable trait or shading effect so that the character look like foreigners. -Who is the target audience of Magi? It can't be the mainstream Japanese audience. It can't be a niche audience, because a niche audience would surely prefer the characters' appearances to better fit the culture it takes inspiration from. Why can't Japanese audience can't be the intended target of Magi? Because it's based of Arabic fantasy? I'm confused. |
NihilisticLoner said: Something tells me that it might be slightly difficult to inculcate subtle facial and eye structure differences while delivering chapters on a weekly basis, and that the mangaka have things more important to work on.Anime never draws foreigners correctly. Whenever it portrays a light-skinned foreigner, all they do is give them a normal nose, give them blonde hair and blue eyes. There are far more complex and subtle differences between races like facial and eye structure, but Japanese artists are absolutely incompetent at recognizing these differences, because they're too lazy to actually research anything outside of their own culture, too lazy to do a google search for 5 minutes, despite living in one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. |
| Just check my manga list if you want the anime scores... I'd mostly rate them the same unless there's any significant change to the plot. |
| Actually this is a fair point, sadly this doesen't only happen with anime but normal movies/series aswell it even happens with history. Take Jezus for example, now let's assume he did exist, he was born and lived in the Middel East, mostly Isreal. Now think about that for a second, now do you really think Jezus would be white? No lol he would be brownish/black. |
IpreferEcchi said:  What anime is this? Asking for a friend. |
| @JaimeC It's Magi: The Kingdom of Magic. You don't see Toto's nipples, though. But the prequel, Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic has genie nipples! |
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| I haven't watched it yet. I do lots of searching to find out if an anime has lewd things before I add it to my Plan To Watch list. |
|
| Whenever anyone tries to start a serious topic related with race, skin color or gender, salty weeaboos come and start screaming SJW, libtard and bait. It's funny though, the irony. |
23 ♀ | ES/ENG  |
NihilisticLoner said: Hrybami said: you only take one sentence and isolate it to avoid discussing my reasoning in its context. No, I only take a sentence that consists of the context as a whole. I reply to nearly everything you say, unlike you, who ignored my key points in your last post. Hrybami said: You're being biased because your cultural issue goes against the fundamental concept of anime as to how anime character are generally drawn and how the world of anime works in surrealist way in general. That's not bias. Biased means to judge based on a preconceived notion, and not reasoning. I've been watching anime since 2010. I've taken Japanese for several years. I even hosted a Japanese exchange student. My criticism towards Magi is based on reasoning. Hrybami said: The problem is that we all already acknowledge that the character skin in Magi is unrealistic So then what are you trying to argue with me? Hrybami said: but you're literally forcing everyone to notice things beyond that and that doesn't work because we have a different background than you. I literally can't force any of you to do anything. You're the ones replying to a thread you couldn't care less about. Hrybami said: If you say that a fantasy world should fully embrace the culture it took its inspiration from, then your argument goes directly against the fundamental concept of fantasy. Therefore, the criticism can't be valid. But Avatar the Last Airbender embraces Asian culture, while having tons of fantastical, fictional things, like powers and magical creatures. If everybody was Indian in Avatar, it would be strange and out of place with the setting Hrybami said: So there aren't really a point in making the cast white other than following the already established trend. Character are drawn white in manga because it's easier to draw them like that. It doesn't need to convey or symbolize anything it's just an artistic aspect of manga. If it doesn't convey anything, and exists solely to pander to the common denominator, then that's a problem. How is Magi any different than fan service anime where the fanservice serves absolutely no purpose other than for the audience to jerk off to it. Dark skin IS, also another part of anime's overall artstyle, as I showed with the pics, which you ignored. Dark skinned characters can be just as anime, as light skinned characters. Hrybami said: Beside that, when artists need to realistically draw a foreigners character they usually add some recognizable trait or shading effect so that the character look like foreigners. Anime never draws foreigners correctly. Whenever it portrays a light-skinned foreigner, all they do is give them a normal nose, give them blonde hair and blue eyes. There are far more complex and subtle differences between races like facial and eye structure, but Japanese artists are absolutely incompetent at recognizing these differences, because they're too lazy to actually research anything outside of their own culture, too lazy to do a google search for 5 minutes, despite living in one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. Hrybami said: Why can't Japanese audience can't be the intended target of Magi? Because it's based of Arabic fantasy? I'm confused. Yes. From a business perspective, it's a shitty idea to make an anime/manga, with such a foreign setting. If the goal of the creator was to make money only, then making the setting in a much more familiar place would be the better option. Let me ask you a basic question: From an artistic perspective, from the perspective of an artist who wants to create something legit, and not pander to the lowest common denominator, and is willing to use more time and money, why NOT make the characters dark skinned to match the setting? Okay OP-kun I think that's enough nitpicking for today. If you can't face the complication from the stance you decided to engage in and you just want to troll people, then there's no reason for me to continue this. I'm not going to repeat myself until the moment you realize that you're going full retard. Unless you actually take the discussion seriously and stop returning the problem you're facing directly back to me, and you actually provide some consistent reasoning for once, then we may continue this. You say that Japanese artists are incompetent and yet you auto-proclaimed yourself as a critic while you can't even hold a discussion that you decided to engage in? Please don't make me laugh. You're most definitely the most narcissistic person I've ever met for the reason that you pretend to repeal every argument you're facing with by being as inconsistent as possible even by going against the fundamental definition of things. Truly astonishing. I never met someone who cares more about being an scumbag in its argumentation rather than actually beat someone in an argument. I had serious doubt, but I didn't totally know that you were unreasonably that dense. You could hands down win the Guiness World Record of the most, incoherent, senseless, illogical and unreasonable ostrich of the World. All my congratulations! Edit: I just clicked on your profile and noticed that you're only 17 years old. That explains a lot of things actually. |
KryzakamiHrybamiDec 18, 2017 3:26 PM
Parantica said: Whenever anyone tries to start a serious topic related with race, skin color or gender, salty weeaboos come and start screaming SJW, libtard and bait. It's funny though, the irony. This isn't serious. Political correctness or accuracy or anything else has no place in fiction unless the author wants it there. |
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IpreferEcchi said: Parantica said: Whenever anyone tries to start a serious topic related with race, skin color or gender, salty weeaboos come and start screaming SJW, libtard and bait. It's funny though, the irony. This isn't serious. Political correctness or accuracy or anything else has no place in fiction unless the author wants it there. While that is a fair point, it does translate into irl problem. It's no coincidence that so many authors decide to not do it. |
| Thread locked The thread has derailed from its original topic and turned into bait, spam and off-topic discussions. Please stay on topic when posting and abide by the Site rules. |
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