alexcampos said: I won't pretend that I know a lot about animation, but I will use an example of an episode I just saw today. I just saw episode 7 of Denpa Onna which is made by Shaft. I could easily point out various scenes where you literally have 20 - 40 seconds where nothing moves except the characters mouths. Honestly, it's a JOKE, the pictures and "art" might be pretty, but there's NO MOVEMENT. .....and talking about Shaft, everyone remembers Bakemonogatari, don't get me wrong I LOVE Bakemonogatari..... But, the animation for that anime is just embarrassing... Shaft is notorious for its Powerpoint presentations. Doesn't prevent them from topping the charts, though... |
Fui said: ... so by that logic, a hobo can be a good president because he did pretty well for a hobo. i get what you're saying with the constraints, but i'd rather look at it in the context of animation and not how well it did under X circumstances. it's like saying runescape is pretty shitty, but since its a browser java based game, it's a good mmorpg anyways.He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. |
Fui said: Shaft is notorious for its Powerpoint presentations. Doesn't prevent them from topping the charts, though... You're absolutely right, although it does prove what the guy in the video is talking about. I mean, I have Bakemonogatari as one of my favorite anime of all time, but that's 100% based on the story and characters, and yes I'll even admit on the "pretty pictures". |
| Denpa Onna's animation quality is noticeably crappy yes.... enough to cringe. There are lots of individual cases you can look at, but I like to think there are reasons we prefer anime... for example more prominent placement of breasts. |
 I am a banana. |
CottonCandyLover said: Fui said: ... so by that logic, a hobo can be a good president because he did pretty well for a hobo. i get what you're saying with the constraints, but i'd rather look at it in the context of animation and not how well it did under X circumstances. it's like saying runescape is pretty shitty, but since its a browser java based game, it's a good mmorpg anyways.He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. Disney productions will usually have a more polished look because of the reasons stated. However, I still prefer the potential of Japanese animation, simply because I prefer how certain Japanese animators animate in terms of composition, action, shape language, and design. They just have different approaches and mentality towards animation, and drawing in general. |
| Disney has a huge staff, higher budgets, and better access to technology. It does not mean their second sequel to Pocahontas or their latest fairy tale movie is better as a whole. Most of Disney's original stories have been flops, especially the ones that were corporately conceived..... usually their original stories only succeed when the right staff comes together and corporate is not paying enough attention to screw it up (e.g. Lion King which played second fiddle to Alladin and was repeatedly delayed, stagnated, predicated on ideas stolen from anime, and then finally saw light after 5.5 years). Disney, and especially the modern Disney, is the most guilty of spewing out formulaic crap in huge quantities of any animation studio anywhere. Look at the tons sequels and derived fairy tail crap they continue to rely on. Even the guy in the vid seemed like he was having a hard time coming up with examples..... Brother Bear? .... sheesh. If that's the best he could come up with between all the Cinderella 2's and Lion King 3's then it's very sad... |
I am a banana. |
| jp anime = low budget & low salary, some staff need to live on their parents even they got a job, so, I would not expect much. |
| The guy has few points, but he has this "we against you" attitude, flame/trolling comments and at the end makes a conclusion that anime is worse than most of other animation out there(and doesn't say it's only animation wise). Seems only a bit more than your average hater. |
| I take my time to read to read the subs so i don't mind when talking scenes are static, i wouldn't notice if something was moving anyway. Also, I really do want to nail him to a piece of wood, he's so freaking annoying. |
| His quality of quantity argument it's kinda moot, Western animations has it's faults aswell, He argues that you get bored of the same thing in anime, but that can also be said with western animation and always following the Disney tropes. It's extremely rare to find American animation that doesn't follow the Disney mold. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| He did make some great points. I usually choose an anime to watch<b>either</b> by screenshots of the amazing art work from an anime series or by reading the story synopsis. But mostly the story is what really makes a good anime for me (after I watch it that is), where as the art work that I see in screenshots is what might be a big draw for me to attempt to give the anime a try, like 50 Centimetres Per Second...even though I did quite like the story as well. I do quite like Naruto Shippuuden (prepares for trolls and haters), I just find the story appealing to myself, but the animation does quite suck. Especially as of late with the flashbacks and even the fight with Pein, the animation wasn't really to my liking. |
ichigo03 said: Anime puts QUANTITY ahead of QUALITY, every year there are only about 1 - 3 anime that are Really good, despite the fact that every year there are more than 100 new anime. So what you're saying is you only watch three shows a year, then... because there's a lot more than 3 good shows from this season alone. Ano Hana, SKET Dance, Deadman Wonderlan, Tiger and Bunny. Boom. named four quite easily. :) Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. |
TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
alexcampos said: He actually dismisses Samurai Champloo even after admitting he hasn't really given it a serious look. He was more interested in mocking the anime community as a whole than arguing in a non-biased way which makes the valid points get drowned between his biased hate.TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
 |
Leon-Gun said: He actually dismisses Samurai Champloo even after admitting he hasn't really given it a serious look. He was more interested in mocking the anime community as a whole than arguing in a non-biased way which makes the valid points get drowned between his biased hate. I went back and looked at the video, you're right he does dismiss Samurai Champloo, however he does have valid points about "Little Animation". I've seen it so many times, when you have scenes where there is NO MOVEMENT and all they do is go back and forth between characters or scenes instead of having a more "Fluid movement". I don't agree with this person in terms of his belief that anime is inferior to Disney, but then again his main points are about TECHNICAL aspects, not the story or pictures. |
| Ok so first of all this guy is retard, thats needs to be said, and he don't know what he is talking about thats for sure. To proof to this theory (and the one that he wanted so badly from anime fans) I recommend Bruce Block book The Visual Story, 2 Ed - Creating the Visual Structure of Film, TV and Digital Media. Frame rate, amount of movement in scene has nothing to do with quality of animation, he also shows stills from stopmotion movies where using low framerate animation is common like other "time saving" technics for example shooting 2 the same frames to speed up whole production. Using different framerate and stills depends of what is happening on the screen, and please don't tell me that Disney is actually making "perfect" animations because they was using rotoscoping in Snow White to make this movie a lot faster, also Disney made many many movies and tv series that are medium-quality but still everyone still talks only about those epic old animations. This topic is huge and many books can be written about it, many was like Tony White - How to Make Animated Films - 2009, or The Animator's Workbook among the best I've seen, but there was no single sentence in those books to proof that this retard is even near being right. Actually there is also book Japanese Visual Culture edited by Mark W MacWilliams that shows how great anime (and manga) is as medium and how different from what we know from our yard - but that doesn't mean its better or worse. Anime is just different approach nothing else, there are many great shows that we as fans can be proud of , only flaw that anime rly have this days is that its massive business full of products that needs to be sell and minority of actual good stories that have something to say... but its common to every big business from book,games,movies to even comics and music. So please lets stop feeding this not even successful troll because "keyboard ( webcam in this case ) warriors" need attention to grow. |
TitanXL said: ichigo03 said: Anime puts QUANTITY ahead of QUALITY, every year there are only about 1 - 3 anime that are Really good, despite the fact that every year there are more than 100 new anime. So what you're saying is you only watch three shows a year, then... because there's a lot more than 3 good shows from this season alone. Ano Hana, SKET Dance, Deadman Wonderlan, Tiger and Bunny. Boom. named four quite easily. :) bro srsly maybe if you like, have no taste or something. TitanXL said: Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. bro if they made some anime show in that style you'd probably be calling it creative or something |
| I don't think the video creator is deliberately trolling (much), but in most contexts people tend to see differences as flaws. He's getting a lot of flames from anime fans who are much less educated on the matter than he is and trolling them a bit in between. It's not difficult to see the cheap tricks, and they're usually due to budget or schedule constraints. I don't think every anime is Dragonball Z though, or that people would even mind if every anime were more like DBZ... He obviously likes to watch anime too despite those technical complaints..... so he's just being critical. He does tout how he enjoys the diverse content in anime, and I'd venture that people watch anime for that more than the technical aspects. The technical aspects are important sure and anime has its share of technical contributions, but by his own admission that really only matters to people who do animation. The average viewer just wants to enjoy it. Disney can afford to spend 3 years on a production and make beautiful animation with a watered-down family-friendly script, but from anime to Disney that content/technical tradeoff is steep. Going by content, Disney is like smoking the stress... once every ~3 years when they actually get a feature out. I'd prefer to have all the weed I could smoke, and a huge backlog of accumulated kush to draw from. I'd love to see every anime series on FMA:B level too, but small japanese animation studios can't afford to put their eggs in one basket, and lots of little eggs are plainly more profitable. If anime productions had more relaxed schedules and big budgets, there definitely would be better animation quality.... but whether it would be better is debatable. If you only have a few "quality" productions then that also eliminates a lot of the fun quirky shows we love from ever being produced. That content diversity he loves is really predicted on the cheapness of their production, so I don't mind if they play magician with their "pretty pictures" as long as the message is still getting across. He wants to trade SHAFT for Disney, but it's better to have both ends of the spectrum. |
sakaMay 30, 2011 9:00 PM
I am a banana. |
| Possibly I just haven't been exposed to tons of different anime to the point where I would come across truly awful art, or something like that, but I'm pretty much indifferent to it. If this is referring to the art "style" (-ish?) anime series tend to have, still indifferent. That in itself is pretty much subjective anyways, so I wouldn't care if someone said it either sucked or was great. I don't mind it. alexcampos said: Evangelion in general actually was, especially the movie; and take into account it was made in 1995/1996, not 2011. The last two episodes obviously are notorious for not being a good example of quality animation, but everything else? And the remakes, while I've only seen previews, are also supposedly pretty remarkable.TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
HaibaneRenmeiFanMay 30, 2011 9:18 PM
 |
TitanXL said: Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. Here you go buddy: Watch that, and without joking please tell me that's not amazing animation. Remember that ANIMATION is not story. |
| @saka I have too admit what you posted is reasonable understandable and no one Quoted you or so called "trolled" what you said, with that being said ... for everyone: Im not expert and obviously I haven't watched a lot of anime like you guys... but Come on you cant take everything into account as being "true" but more so as opinion... aslo if you dont like a certain content such as animations then Don't watch it ... Just to be a tad mean I like anime soooooooooooo much Ive spent like a whole month of my life watching it ... no i haven't ... but ive watched movies at theatres that i do enjoy and spent it that way oh right i forgot animation in anime doesnt suck it just needs to be re-discovered by a new type of era for the future If you like pony's cause of a animation pffft im afraid of what you will like if animation was like that for everything |
ricosuaveMay 30, 2011 10:29 PM
| Haters gonna hate the ones that keep it real. |
ricosuave said: I was referring to the original vid, where he says in no uncertain terms that he's doing it to undermine the legitimacy of raging anime fans, and wallow in their rage -- that would be trolling. I really don't blame him, since there are way too many braindead teenagers who think they have taste but can't explain why. It certainly dilutes his message though.@saka I have too admit what you posted is reasonable understandable and no one Quoted you or so called "trolled" what you said Onibokusu said: That's all vectored cell shading animation... they make key frames and the computer does the inbetweens. It's a Flash cartoon. Apples and oranges, anyway. American companies use cell shading because it's fast and cheap. Computers are used everywhere, but generally it still starts as hand-drawn for most of the anime we watch. I'm not going to debate whether certain techniques are better or more pure, but basically the studio does whatever it can do to get the effect they want as efficiently as possible.... even if some viewers notice the rough edges. Japanese and western animation both cut corners... and the guy who made the vid acknowledges that too. He's somehow pissed about feature length movies not looking like disney features... but then he applies that to anime generally which is why it's kind of double talk.My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic edit: typos |
sakaMay 30, 2011 10:55 PM
I am a banana. |
alexcampos said: Watch that, and without joking please tell me that's not amazing animation. Well, ignoring the god awful voice acting (that's honestly the worst fake southern accent I've ever heard) I must say I did like the part where they reuse the same two designs like six times in one scene. http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4062/capma.png Though I suppose that's to be expected when all the characters are the same basic model, only with different colors and hair styles. But no, it moves very stiff and awkward. Everything slides around and it's incredibly obvious it's being moved around in a computer program. That's the thing with Flash, it's obvious when it's being used and it's impossible to hide that fact. The simple act of some random anime character flipping their hair has more natural movement than anything in that.. the hair in that moves so unnaturally, like it's one big blob or string. |
TitanXLMay 30, 2011 11:40 PM
| uh i haven't watched that video in a while and i'm not going to rewatch it because the guys a loser but i do think he brought up the detail of anime from what i can remember from a while ago and i think anime is very strong in that department, yes the character is only moving his mouth, BUT JUST LOOK AT THE DETAIL OF HIS FUCKING HAIR! you know? i think western and eastern animation have different priorities i suppose. |
| Flash animation is very limited and looks crappy IMO. I'd rather watch this any day of the week. |
| Find me a better flash fight scene. It doesn't matter. It's the look that can't be replicated. |
Onibokusu said: You are aware you're comparing human movement to a pony, right? Humans have more movable joints than ponies do (except in the legs, which is the only thing wrong with My Little Pony pony anatomy). You are aware you're comparing human hair to horse/pony hair, right? Human hair and pony hair work in completely different ways. Seriously, go and ride a horse and/or pony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KXf3kwjKQ0 Where's your excuses now? :D But seriously, animals or no, I remember Tiny Toons and Animaniacs having leagues better animation than that Flash crap. Using 'they're animals' as an excuse to justify poor flash animation is weak. |
TitanXLJun 1, 2011 12:12 AM
| MLP is cheaply made flash animation and certainly not a paragon of animation quality. It's wobbling vectors. If you compare that to say Panty & Stocking on the same benchmarks then maybe you have some comparison, since their creation methods are more similar. It still is irrelevant to the video's criticisms. I know you're just trying to manufacture attention to MLP so please just stop... you made your point. |
I am a banana. |
ophiucha said: ...because those mediums use motion capture of live actors. Admittedly, rotoscoping from real and cg sources is used in a lot of hand drawn animation as well... but the criticisms about how much motion a character has are already debunked in previous posts. That really doesn't mean a whole lot, and is an outdated inaccurate measure that really only applies to traditional hand drawn animation. The amount of motion in the scene really doesn't reflect how technically challenging it was to achieve.Though it is a gorgeous scene and well directed, even then the animation wouldn't win any awards when compared to even the most mediocre of video games or CG productions. |
I am a banana. |
| I just wanted to debunk the elements mentioned, since the amount of motion is completely irrelevant in CG/games. I thought the rest of your post made good points, and there certainly is a lot of obviously great and horrible animation, most of the former using improvised techniques and new technologies that really change how we measure that~ |
I am a banana. |
| Disney productions have many more inbetweens so even the most minor actions will be animated with a good amount of frames. The Sword and the Stranger video is running almost only on keys at some points so it gets pretty choppy at points. Actually it's not in many Japanese animators' philosophies to adopt the "Disney" look...a school of animation was "founded" based on an entirely different principle, which is the type of animation I prefer (Kanada). One thing I appreciate about Disney is expressions/gestures, since they really put the effort into animating them. I think the characters are very "animator-friendly." My problem (opinion) with Disney is the design and shape language...I just don't think any of it looks cool or interesting. This is very subjective, of course, and is not animation-relevant. Same thing with the action, composition and direction. saka said: MLP is cheaply made flash animation and certainly not a paragon of animation quality. It's wobbling vectors. If you compare that to say Panty & Stocking on the same benchmarks then maybe you have some comparison, since their creation methods are more similar. It still is irrelevant to the video's criticisms. I know you're just trying to manufacture attention to MLP so please just stop... you made your point. Yeah but MLP doesn't have this (animation starts at 0:57): |
FuiJun 1, 2011 2:00 AM
| well, other than the transformation sequences~ P&S uses a lot of modeled CG too, so it's kind of muddled.... but I can't really think of any other anime examples that were similar to MLP.... P&S obviously beats MLP on any technical measure anyway, but these examples aren't really relevant to the op's vid on technical qualities since the methods in which they were made were very different. P&S is also emulating western style and methods ala cartoon network so it's kind of a unique hybrid. |
I am a banana. |
| Lets swap anime and american cartoons budgets around and lets see what happens. |
fuck everything and rumble |
| He does make a good point about the technical movement, however I hardly think thats what people look for when watching animation. He's pretty much the minority. |
| Sometimes when the background is static, it actually looks better than when they move around in an 'unnatural' way (such as rocking back and forth). What I find annoying as well, is the way they draw mouths, especially when you see them from the side. This doesn't make any sense: And neither does this: |
Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
| You simply CAN'T generalize! IMO Japanese animation has got to have some of the most fantastic hand-drawing style I've ever seen, just look at the oh so ever popular Myiazaki, the attention to detail, colorful and plentiful backgrounds, constant and realistic movement? That's just a popular example and budget does play a huge role in here, and there's so much more. I must agree though, 95% of what is released today is trash. The thing is that there are studios out there that are making those 5% worth it. |
VeethornJun 1, 2011 4:53 AM
 |
| Okay, this guy is awesome! |
| |
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