Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 7 Discussion

Champloo_Remix said:

Well to play devil's advocate for a moment you have to consider what Amuro was able to do in CCA with merely a cockpit made of psycoframe and also consider that the entierty of the Unicorn Gundam (or most of it's underlayer anyway) is made of psycoframe. I know they mentioned that it's in a sense merely a vessel (lol see what I did there?) for the pilot's psycho waves/Newtypes abilities but it's hard to imagine that having THAT much more psycho frame to the point where most of the suit is psycho frame doesn't also amplify the pilot's newtype prowess.

ex_necross said:


Then again what about the fact that Banagher can actually handle the extreme pressure of all those psycho frames? I recall somewhere that it causes a serious strain on the pilot and only very capable newtypes can use the system.

If the Unicorn is literally decked out in them and Banagher can pilot it, even with his impact reducing suit...

Champloo_Remix said:


I was literally just editing this into my post lol. But yes that's the flipside of it.

Champloo_Remix said:
Regarding Axis: sure but would that have been wrong? But to make it short and sweet. What would have yielded/did yield the better result? What humanity have been better off moving into space and eventually all becoming Newtypes via Char's Rebellion or did the Earth Federation and Londo Bell's victory int he Second Neo Zeon War (plus Amuro's actions) open humanity's eyes at all?


That's why CCA is a very gray affair. It's not about discerning who's right or who's wrong because there's righteousness on both ends and wrongfulness on both ends.

Champloo_Remix said:

So with that in mind what would've happened if Neo Zeon would have kept the psycho frame tech to themselves? Would things have turned out differently for Neo Zeon? More importantly would Char have succeeded in his goal and would the world/universe afterward have been a very different place?

MissileSoup said:
Also, newtypes have always been depicted to transcend space and time, e.g. telecommunication, premonitions, merging of memories. Newtypes are ever-evolving, so what sets Banagher's newtype abilities apart from others, so much as people claiming his transition an ascension to godhood? From what I remember, Syam deemed Mineva and Banagher true newtypes, and Riddhe was the only one that stated Banagher was a perfect newtype, and that was in a form of a query. Were "true" and "perfect" newtypes ever defined in-universe? Since 0079, newtype abilities could be attained through experience and understanding by anyone. Are "true" and "perfect" newtypes really any different?

Ckan said:
Any clues to the cyber part of Banagher's newtypery will probably go unanswered without novel details. (heh)

There's definitely a level of continued mystery to what exactly is a 'newtype'. Both in-unverse and meta-wise, it's never absolutely defined. And that goes back to what I believe is Tomino's use of the newtype as both a vague metaphor and concept encompassing evolution, humanity, life, and possibility.
It gets difficult to find a clear notion of what newtypes 'mean' both because of in-universe differing accounts, and also the varying lucidity of Tomino's 'greater story'.
Is Zeta the ideological answer to 0079, or merely a somewhat connected work sharing characters and universe? I suppose, that since Tomino isn't a fully-controlling 'auteur', that we can interpret as we like and solely on the in-universe occurrences, but it's always worthwhile to remember the vaguer messages that newtypes represent.

Unicorn, I think in reflection of the author, takes Newtypes literally as a superhuman and evolved form of mankind - the end-point in enhanced/advanced evolution. The problem is when we try and align the vaguer metaphoric and idealistic elements with the literal, scientific/factual elements presented in the show.

MissileSoup said:
Regarding Banagher being a cyber-newtype. I was actually hoping someone who read the novels could clear that up with an actual passage or section in the novels. I've seen novel-readers state confident but discrepant answers, and even more that claim it was left unanswered.

As for newtypes, it is definitely an abstract concept. However, I do believe Unicorn tries to go beyond that. Attaining newtype-hood is seen similar as gaining access to a 4th dimension, transcending of space and time. It would explain why newtypes exist beyond physical death, why Amuro, Char, and Lalah were able to reunite, all telecommunication and precognition, and the resonance and time travel between Banagher and Full Frontal. While newtype-ness can be metaphorical, the events in Unicorn do tie up with scientific elements, as far as fiction goes. Did Tomino have any supervision or direct influence in Unicorn?

ex_necross said:


I also just realized how important that is. It was mentioned "what if Amuro had the Unicorn?". There's a good chance he couldn't even handle it.

Ckan said:
Yep, this does come down to personal philosophy and is also convoluted by the fact that multiple motifs/themes of gundam double up; ie. bound by gravity/ earth's corruption vs emancipation of the colonies / venturing to space / = newtype ascendancy.

I'd like to think that there's two sort of 'answers' to this.

First, the way CCA ended was itself the 'right' and core message of Gundam. That newtypes are inconsequential in the sense that they're always an aspect of 'humanity' - that first and foremost, the sacredness of life, and the pettiness of mankind is the inseparability of humanity.

The retort to that of course, is that if all mankind became newtypes, wouldn't we be able to 'understand' each other?
And to that, I think it's possibly, yes, but in Tomino's mind, I think it's also a false hope. This would be seen in the way that he depicts newtypes as ephemeral, flawed, and often enough, humanly 'evil'.
That newtypes are magic answer to humanity's inherent disagreements and misundertandings - that even with the power of a newtype, we won't always understand each other. Did Scirocco and Kamille come to terms? Did Haman fold to Judau? They certainly came to 'understand' each other vividly, but there was no acceptance and agreement.
Also, we can see the continuance of the view that Newtypes are a freak 'phenomena' - not the true 'evolution' of mankind - this continues in the perpetual warring and divisons of humanity in Later UC. (yeah just noticed that, I'm mixing meta and in-universe, which is terrible, and not at all good reasoning.)

And actually, my second point for why the Axis drop would not have been some beneficial event lies in that too. Newtypes are never the answer; that's why so many of the AUs are flawed in having their magical, idealistic 'understandings' (yes, I'm pointing at Trailblazer).
The colonies may have been unified under Char's Neo Zeon; mankind may have come to the stars, but corruption and mankind's selfishness would remain. Would Char step down from being dictator and revolutionary? Would he unite mankind under an iron rule?
If not, could anyone truly trust a mass-murderers intentions? Would not his actions have lead to even further endless war?
Of course, there's speculation to this, but to truly end a conflict you have to defeat the root causes of it. By removing the Federation's grip, Char creates a vacuum in political leadership, while the defeat destruction of Earth wouldn't have even necessarily constituted a military victory.

However, if we ignore the political realities and focus on newtype ideals - a venture into space. It's possible. Possible that humanity as one could somehow gradually become newtypes - a people of understanding.
On the other-hand, if we take F91 and Victory into account, a constant and prolonged presence in space dos not eventuate in a newtype race.

So then we come to Unicorn. Unicorn posits that the 'hidden light' exists in everyone - if we take cyber newtypes into account, we can see that anyone has the capacity for these abilities. So everyone could theoretically become a newtype.

But we've seen that 'normal' newtypes (and cyber newtpes in particular) still have aggressive tendencies - even with the connectedness, hate can prevail (Judau v. Haman).
So in the end, within the confines of UC, I don't believe a complete newtype utopia could occur within the universe - it's just too far fetched and would require an all-knowing god-guiding hand.
If we gave humanity another couple of centuries or so, who knows?

Err, I drifted away from your initial question there, but newtype waffling is great, UC?

I'll umm... address your actual questions on the morality and consequences in a profile post or something... later.

Champloo_Remix said:
Let's not jump to conclusions now. "Good chance" is kind of speculative. Given the impact-reducing suit and put on a leveled playing field it's not outside the realm of possibility Amuro could've hypothetically displayed the same type of Newtype power as Banagher. But again, this is all speculation.

Ckan said:
As things go, I like to think of Amuro as an 'experienced' newtype - which matches nicely with his veteran skills and maturity. He's not the most powerful of the protagonists (Zeta, ZZ, CCA), but his continued exposure to the key UC conflicts, and his strong connection with powerful newtypes; Char and Lalah, are perhaps what kept him above the cyber/newtype and allowed for the Axis Shock (along with the other pilots there).

Taking that into account, I think it fits nicely to assume that Banagher is a stronger newtype even at base-line, than Amuro. The only thing I can think of that Amuro has done greater than Banagher would be his messaging at A Baoa Qu, as I can't remember Banagher ever having that showing that level of telepathic communication. (We might also put this down to how close the White Base crew had grown.)

Kamille and Judau on the other hand, I think, would give Banagher a run for his money on raw-power.

skudoops said:


I don't think much would have changed, the active time on it pretty much prevents it from being totally dominant. If you noticed during the battles Unicorn and Banshee would constantly be switching in and out of destroy mode.. this is mostly due to the limiter and them reaching a point where they could activate it without requiring a newtype in the area.

Additionally the technology would have reached the Federation either way, it's just how war works. Anything that game changing is going to reach in enemy hands some way or the other.

Champloo_Remix said:

Let's not jump to conclusions now. "Good chance" is kind of speculative. Given the impact-reducing suit and put on a leveled playing field it's not outside the realm of possibility Amuro could've hypothetically displayed the same type of Newtype power as Banagher. But again, this is all speculation.

Ckan said:

Kamille and Judau on the other hand, I think, would give Banagher a run for his money on raw-power.

ex_necross said:


No I think Amuro probably could pilot it. "Good chance" meant it's not out of the realm of possibility.



I never really got the impression that Kamille or Judau were "better" newtypes or pilots than Amuro. Somehow I don't think Kamille could have survived some of the encounters Amuro did, especially vs. Char.

Zadine05 said:
It's already been stated by the creators. Judau is the strongest Newtype i nterms of raw power. However Amuro has had maaaaany more years of piloting skill than the other gundam newtypes. So naturally he would be the best newtype mobile suit pilot out of them.

AllStarNemesis said:

Wars don't breed more wars.

AllStarNemesis said:

Wars don't breed more wars.

ex_necross said:
lol

RedgraveGilver said:
History don't agree with you my friend.

RedgraveGilver said:
In terms of new type powers, sure i agree that Banagher is superior than Judau, Kamille and Amuro combined. But in terms of raw piloting skills Amuro takes the cake.

New type powers =/= Piloting skills

Imateria said:
Interesting debate here.

Personally I don't buy this whole godhood/complete/transcendent thing, mainly because Riddhe, who is the only person to have a called him such, is far from being a reliable source. Lets face it, he spent hours piloting a full body Psyco-frame mobile suite, which can only have the NT-D system activated by a newtype pilot, before Banaghe pointed out to him that he was a newtype (kind of like how he spent 3 whole episodes piloting a Gundam in the Delta Plus before Marida pointed that out to him). There's also no way he could have fully understood what that meant, it too Amuro, Kamille, Judae and even Banagher some time to come to grips (Gryps?) with that. Also, as far as him being called a true newtype, I'm pretty certain thats just the terminology that Universal Century uses to differentiate between natural and Cyber newtypes and all it means is that someone like Full Frontal or Marida couldn't have opened the La+ program.

More importantly, I don't think anything happened to him at the end of Unicorn that didn't happen to Amuro and Char at the end of CCA. That force field that blocked the Gryps II colony laser was definitely an "Axis Shock" event which we already know is two psyco-frames resonating with each other and feeding off the conscious will of the pilots who are in turn connected to the people around them (the Jegan and Gear Doga pilots in CCA, the Nahel Argama and people on Industrial 7 in Unicorn). Personally I reckon that the psyco-frame pulls so hard on the pilots consciousness that it literally tears them from their body. I think the difference here is that Banaghe would have fought to stay put and get back to Mineva whilst Char and Amuro would have wanted to go on to see Lalah Sune.

With regards to who's the most powerful newtype, I haven't seen anything in Unicorn that would suggest Banaghe was any more powerful than Amuro or Char, leaving Kamille and Judau as the clear favourites in this respect. I've always felt that Kamille was the more powerful but Tomino himself has said that Judau is No 1.

With piloting skills, easily Amuro.

Champloo_Remix said:


The one thing that seems to be escaping me is where some of you guys are getting "godhood" from. Are you basing that on how OP Banagher and Unicorn were by the end of it or did someone in the subbed version (I watched dubbed) actually say something about godhood? Or are you guys just speaking figuratively?

Because again if you ask me I think Banagher being the true realization of the Newtype Zeon Deikun predicted gives off a better feeling sense in the context of the Gundam universe. He's what the Newtype is supposed to be at the pinnacle of human evolution and what the rest of humanity can eventually potentially become.


Side note:

I'd be interested in reading up on the finer details/mechanics of psycho frame. One could hypothesize depending on the Gundam mythos that it was because Amuro and Char had such little psychoframe to perhaps focus and stabilize their own Newtype powers during the Axis shock that they perished as a result of their own combined power being too much for their physical bodies to withstand. So in fact perhaps the reason Amuro met the fate that he did wasn't because he was weak in any capacity but because the Nu Gundam wasn't strong enough of a psycho-machine/psychoframed MS to stabilize/focus Amuro's Newtype power safely. But that's just one theory regarding why Banagher and Amuro met different ends. Makes you think what if Amuro had the Unicorn (and if Char had the Sinanju for that matter)?

Champloo_Remix said:


MSG/0079
Operation Stardust Memory
Zeta
ZZ
Char's Counterattack

watch in that order. If you got sentimental having seen nothing but the trilogy films than I you're heart would've been physically shedding tears had you taken the journey leading up to Unicorn lol.


I personally advise against watching any of the summary films for Gundam because each time the anime series is a better option imo as far as getting the depth and connection to the story and characters. But out of all the summary films I've seen the MSG trilogy is probably the most well put together.


No it's not safe imo. Better pilot? Absolutely not. Amuro as far as I'm concerned is still the best Universal Century pilot clearly. If you put Amuro in a Rick Dias he's still able to wipe out mobile suits/armors that vastly outclass his own. Amuro's a legit ace PILOT. Best/better newtype is now an interesting debate with Unicorn.

Because if you yank Amuro and put him in the Unicorn Gundam would he or would he not have been able to pull off what Banagher did? How much of Banagher's success was a result of just having the Unicorn Gundam itself? These are all questions you have to ask yourself.

Now with the way the anime painted Banagher in the end (insinuating he's a "true/perfected Newtype") I'd lean more towards Banagher probably being one of the if not the strongest Newtypes in UC. I think the big equalizer is the Unicorn Gundam that's entire body is made up of/with psychoframe as opposed to say Amuro's Nu Gundam whose cockpit was the only bit of psycoframe in/on the suit. But at the end of the day I still see Banagher as a competent Gundam pilot and possibly one of the strongest Newtypes in Universal Century.


Side note:

kind of an interesting thing to consider the origins of the psychoframe...who came up with it and how the Earth Federation/Anaheim Electronics got their hands on it.

Imateria said:
Interesting debate here.

Lets face it, he spent hours piloting a full body Psyco-frame mobile suite, which can only have the NT-D system activated by a newtype pilot, before Banaghe pointed out to him that he was a newtype (kind of like how he spent 3 whole episodes piloting a Gundam in the Delta Plus before Marida pointed that out to him)..

skudoops said:
As far as I'm aware the NT-D System doesn't need a newtype pilot, it just needs to detect an enemy one. I'm not going to say this with full confidence but IIRC the NT-D system was developed for non newtypes to fight newtypes. It has a 5 minute timer so that you don't "fry your brain". However the way it works newtypes would benefit greatly from using it.

ex_necross said:
I never really got the impression that Kamille or Judau were "better" newtypes or pilots than Amuro. Somehow I don't think Kamille could have survived some of the encounters Amuro did, especially vs. Char.

Ckan said:
Another instance that may be telling is when Judau's rage - outside of his gundam, created a frightening figure that caused even Haman Karn to flee in terror.

Champloo_Remix said:
The one thing that seems to be escaping me is where some of you guys are getting "godhood" from. Are you basing that on how OP Banagher and Unicorn were by the end of it or did someone in the subbed version (I watched dubbed) actually say something about godhood? Or are you guys just speaking figuratively?

Because again if you ask me I think Banagher being the true realization of the Newtype Zeon Deikun predicted gives off a better feeling sense in the context of the Gundam universe. He's what the Newtype is supposed to be at the pinnacle of human evolution and what the rest of humanity can eventually potentially become.

AllStarNemesis said:
Dozle Zabi also created a frightening shadow right before he died. Maybe it's a newtype manifestation of their hatred and lust to kill. Dozle to kill Amuro and Judau to kill Haman.

skudoops said:


As far as I'm aware the NT-D System doesn't need a newtype pilot, it just needs to detect an enemy one. I'm not going to say this with full confidence but IIRC the NT-D system was developed for non newtypes to fight newtypes. It has a 5 minute timer so that you don't "fry your brain". However the way it works newtypes would benefit greatly from using it.

Ckan said:
While I don't think he literally became a 'god' - I think I can explain.
Riddhe says in awe "so this is a kansei sareta newtype", (my ears could be wrong), and that roughly translates to a "completed/perfected newtype". That is to say, it's been made/aided/finished - to a 'full/final form'. That's my interpretation of those words, and I have no fluency in Japanese, so take that how you will.

Now, at this point Banagher has flied off leaving a green newtype trail and proceeds to disable whole mobile suits remotely. Riddhe chases after him to 'bring him back'.
Banagher then proceeds - (eyes closed in a presumably trance/coma-like state) - to disable the whole lot of General Revil's mobile suits remotely. Lets also not forget the earlier magic crystallisation of the Unicorn which disappears when Banagher is 'brought back'.

So here, combining Riddhe's testimony, and Banagher's state and abilities - we can see that he truly has reached a level of 'ascendancy' - the perfection of a newtype.

Now, this becomes speculation. Often with high-end newtypes, during their emotional death; the peak of their power, they become one in both as a ghost in the green light - see the tears of time/etc.
This seems to be a state that can only be reached/seen by the most sensitive/powerful newtypes - and even then, only the ones personally connected with the victim.
Seeing Banagher's state's similarity to the newtype death, we can presume that his ascendancy as a perfected newtype has made him a completely different being beyond that of all newtypes before. However, from his actions and Riddhe's statements, we can see that in doing so, he's given up/losing his connection to the material world. Thus Riddhe says he's going too far - and has to bring him back.

Now what does this mean? I will say that this doesn't make him a 'God' in the classic sense - but that his abilities and transcendence to the 'newtype light plane' have made him as close to a godly being as is possible in Universal Century.

In reference to newtype theory, we can see this as the final form of Zeon Deikun's theory. Add to that Syam Vist (I believe it was?) who discussed how the newtype was a 'kami' within every person. This is, I think important to that theory of humanity's capability to develop newtype powers as a potential stage - the theme depicted in Unicorn.
In Japan, 'kami', roughly translated as 'god' are actually more similar to 'divine spirits'. Kami reside in all sorts of things, and aren't so much identified with the western Judeo-Christian concept of an almighty God. This is telling, because when they say that the potential as a newtype is a the 'kami in man', it evokes the sort of vitalistic being; a concept of spiritual power that resides, and is part of a particular object: people, as individuals.

So, when Riddhe says "the possibility is enough', he tells us that Banagher has ascended to that other plane - but a state which is far from humanity, reachable only by the 'incomplete' newtypes. I would also go so far as to suggest that perhaps in death, certain newtypes become largely 'perfected' as they become one with those who have gone before them.

I hope I've clarified a little that Banagher has not necessarily become the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God (although he has much of those powers), but that he appears to have become the next stage or final form of Newtype - a state of being which literally is so like that of the dead Ghosts, that he perhaps no longer saw the material world, but the flowing time where he was himself a child in the arms of his father.

This, I can agree with. Although I don't remember if Dozle directed it at Amuro personally.

Really, I'm grasping at straws, as I can't recall the varying instances of Kamille/Judau having high-precognition and telepathy. It's really been a while since I've seen the shows.

Actually, it might be possible to bring in 'newtype attraction' into this, but that's another quagmire of relativity.

Imateria said:
@Ckan- I'm pretty certain that the "Kami" referred to throughout Unicorn is Possibility, a more overarching and vague concept that newtypism

Imateria said:


Since I'm not trying to type out a post at 3am I can think about this better. Your probably right that the NT-D system itself doesn't need a newtype to activate it however it's directly linked to the psyco-frames and without any question that does need a newtype to activate because no newtype means no psyco waves and nothing to control it or turn it on.

Ckan said:
@arzter
We're only debating this because we want to. See how civil it's been?
I believe this is correct, although given the Vist-mastermind elements revealed in this episode, it may be fair to say that it was also made with the true intention of 'revealing' a 'true' newtype, whatever that may mean.

Ckan said:
You could very well be right, though I see the two issues as interlinked. (Now I'm going to waffle on irrelevantly.)
Gundam has always been about the flaw of humanity - the constant pull of divisions, hatred and conflict. And against that, it has shown the Newtype as a false wish, but also a reflection of humanity's good: our potential.

(tl;dr ahead)
And now with Unicorn, a new young newtype is brought back from infinity of final freedom, because he too, believes and loves humanity. Perhaps it could be said that newtypes, are those empowered and cursed with a greater propensity to understand. Even in that understanding there is no obvious answer, but perhaps it points to that tiny light: that one day, humanity might be able to love more than hate; to progress rather than regress; to make peace and not war. Then that potential godhood; that prayer in the form of man; then will it have helped light the way for the true ascendancy to come.

In the end we need not gods, but the hope found from them.

Imateria said:
Yeah, Char and Amuro both died at the end of CCA.

Great posts from Ckan and MissileSoup, pretty much agree with you both.

As for the after effects of Mineva's speech, I suspect that in the long run it's what weekend the Federation and allowed the Crossbone Vanguard to take Frontier I- IV colonies from Side 4 and then for the Zanscare Empire to launch it's attack in Victory Gundam.

cupc said:
Their death wasn't confirmed though, I'm pretty sure. They were officially MIA. Now, Amuro did probably die back then, judging from the fact that he was seen as a newtype 'ghost' during this episode. But Char was actually still alive (As 'Full Frontal' of course) and died finally this episode.

Ckan said:
Well, I wouldn't call Full Frontal a 'live Char'. In fact, by Ep7, we've seen that his beliefs noticeably differ from Char's, or rather, he as a person is different.

We hear Amuro's ghost, but we actually saw Char's ghost.

cupc said:

Is this your theory, or do you have a source? But it would make sense, yes.

bonifide said:
Satisfying ending but would had been better if more people died and make it more of a tragedy. Everybody i wanted dead lived. I really wanted that cocky bitch on earth to die.

Ckan said:
Perhaps you should be watching the older Gundams. There's plenty of tragedy there.