Monogatari Series: Second Season
| only for people who have finished watching this anime there will be no "TL;DR".. so if it's too long for you, simply stay out of this topic :) -------------------------- So.. let me get straight to the point. After finishing the last arc (Hitagi End) a few days ago.. I'm really disappointed by the "development" of Senjougahara. This season i found her to be extremely weak, cheap and dishonest towards Araragi, and there are a couple of reasons for that. 1) There were still like 74 days or so left before their graduation (enough time to come up with a plan), but she still chose to call and meet Kaiki (a man she supposedly hates). 2) She doesn't tell Araragi that she's going to meet him. She hides that fact from him. She looks for absurd reasons that would justify that.. obviously he wouldn't just go berserk and kill him, we've seen that. And Senjougahara knew that. 3) She made it abundantly clear that she's willing to sell her body in order to earn enough money so Kaiki will save her "beloved" Araragi. I'm sure Araragi would have been extremely happy about that.. I know she was almost raped once, but that doesn't make this offer somehow tragically romantic.. she'd just be a simple whore. And she knows that Araragi wouldn't be happy about that. She'd just lie to him and be happy about having saved Araragi in such a way. Even after Kaiki refuses, throughout the arc.. she keeps bringing it up and without being asked.. she just keeps saying: "I'm willing to do anything" // "I'm prepared to do anything". Pretty pathetic and cheap. 4) Even if meant as a joke, she was still flirting with him. a) Kaiki calls: "I have a question" --> "I'm wearing blue underwear" b) Senjougahara: "How does it feel to have total control over a high school girl//high school girl's body?" + all the other conversations + meetings with him - all behind Araragi's back 5) She led Araragi to believe that Kaiki is simply an evil person.. and that she simply hates him from the bottom of her heart. That is clearly not the case. It wasn't a relationship, but there was clearly something between them when Senjougahara met Kaiki for the first time. She had feelings for him (and so did he). She's also dishonest towards Araragi in making him believe that he is her first love. Which also isn't true. She simply lies and hides all that from him. + let's not forget that she said something along the lines of: "Kaiki, I feel lonely knowing that this is going to be our last conversation" **** 6) Before he's going to Sengoku to tell her that Araragi etc. died, Kaiki and Senjougahara have one more phone call. He doesn't need any information, he's not asking for anything. And still, she asks Kaiki: "Do you want to see/meet me one last time?" We don't exactly know what's being implied here, but there are 2 possibilities. a) They'd simply go to the café again and talk. b) If he said so, she was willing to spend the night with him. Why do I think that "b" would also be a possibility? - First.. the way she asked him was kind of weird.. Something was definitely being implied there. - Senjougahara lied the whole time and was dishonest towards Araragi in this arc. Clearly we don't know what she's truly capable of. and most important of all.. it's because of something she said to Araragi (it was in Nisemonogatari, i believe) Back then.. she told Araragi that she doesn't think of sleeping with someone else as betrayal/cheating. Or that she doesn't think of it as something unforgivable or bad. She would just not allow him to fall in love with someone else, that's something she couldn't forgive. That's what she thinks about it. Those are her beliefs. Therefore it doesn't just apply to Araragi, but also to her as well. **** ----------------- Obviously it's just an anime, but it's a place to discuss anime.. so I figured: "Why not make a topic and see what other people think about the "development" of this particular character. Before all this she was actually my favorite character in Monogatari.. by far |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 3:13 AM
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| How about Koyomi? Didn't he kissed/has been kissed by three girls throughout the series? |
| The world shall know the truth soon. |
| yes, but this is a discussion about Senjougahara and not Araragi. and also.. those girls are like 8 years old or so, i think they're more like sisters to Araragi. He wouldn't have sex with them or anything else. Something Senjougahara was perhaps willing to do with Kaiki. + let's not forget that she was willing to sell her body. |
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Romeo said: yes, but this is a discussion about Senjougahara and not Araragi. and also.. those girls are like 8 years old or so, i think they're more like sisters to Araragi. He wouldn't have sex with them or anything else. Something Senjougahara was perhaps willing to do with Kaiki. + let's not forget that she was willing to sell her body. Hmm... Now that you mentioned it, they are kinda paired during the arc. |
| The world shall know the truth soon. |
| perhaps you didn't read my post? im fully aware of that and i explain why it doesn't justify anything. and it also doesn't explain the other things, especially #6 |
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| I never liked her from the start so my opinion didn't particularly change... though I can understand where you're coming from at least |
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| you sure seem like a mature person why bother posting then? if this doesn't interest you, then you could simply stay away and do something else.. something non-stupid and meaningful with your life. how about that? but i guess it's fun trying to act all cool and witty on some forum, your parents must be proud! well.. explains how you managed to get 12,7k posts lol.. "won't read, it's stupid.. my answer is NO! grow up, kiddie :/ e: wow, he deleted his own comment. amazing :P |
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Romeo said: you sure seem like a mature person why bother posting then? if this doesn't interest you, then you could simply stay away and do something else.. something non-stupid and meaningful with your life. how about that? but i guess it's fun trying to act all cool and witty on some forum, your parents must be proud! not to be rude, but aren't you the one who is trying to act "all cool and witty on some forum"? |
| mind explaining how you've come to that conclusion? i simply started a thread/discussion.. how am i trying to act cool/witty? and why are you even posting here if you have nothing to say regarding the topic? |
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| uhm was that directed at me or some random guy who disappeared again? :o |
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| at some random guy who disappeared again after posting some garbage he deleted his own comment though :) |
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| oic didn't think what I wrote was *that* offensive =w= |
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| no worries, your post wasn't offensive at all =) |
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| Senjougahara has "development" Lol right |
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Romeo said: So.. let me get straight to the point. After finishing the last arc (Hitagi End) a few days ago.. I'm really disappointed by the "development" of Senjougahara. This season i found her to be extremely weak, cheap and dishonest towards Araragi, and there are a couple of reasons for that. I'm probably gonna regret seriously replying to this.. 1) There were still like 74 days or so left before their graduation (enough time to come up with a plan), but she still chose to call and meet Kaiki (a man she supposedly hates). What plan exactly? there was a strong emphasis, that Kaiki is a last resort. That Hitagi going to him for help, was a true sign of how desperate their situation was. 2) She doesn't tell Araragi that she's going to meet him. She hides that fact from him. She looks for absurd reasons that would justify that.. obviously he wouldn't just go berserk and kill him, we've seen that. And Senjougahara knew that. Why would she tell him? She obviously knows that Araragi will be against that, and will try to stop her. There are no absurd reasons for that, I already mentioned why. I have no idea what you are even talking about. 3) She made it abundantly clear that she's willing to sell her body in order to [....]. No, that's a misinterpretation on your part. She implied that, to see Kaiki's reaction, because even a person like himself, wouldn't allow to do that, so basically just to manipulate him, and make him agree to her request. Another emphasis on the situation being desparte. She wasn't seriously going to do that, it's all talk. Not to mention, this was from Kaiki's point of view, we don't know if she even implied that, we just know that she never done that. Ugh, this was I meant by regretting this...I don't want to read stupid crap like this. 4) Even if meant as a joke, she was still flirting with him. a) Kaiki calls: "I have a question" --> "I'm wearing blue underwear" b) Senjougahara: "How does it feel to have total control over a high school girl//high school girl's body?" + all the other conversations + meetings with him - all behind Araragi's back What are you getting at? All the small talk, and witty back and forth, is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. The important thing here, is that she met with him for a specific purpose, I don't see why you are trying to overexaggerate it, and make something out of nothing. Senjougahara made it perfectly clear how she feels about Araragi, and how she feels about Kaiki, back at Nisemonogatari. 5) She led Araragi to believe that Kaiki is simply an evil person.. and that she simply hates him from the bottom of her heart. That is clearly not the case. It wasn't a relationship, but there was clearly something between them when Senjougahara met Kaiki for the first time. She had feelings for him (and so did he). She's also dishonest towards Araragi in making him believe that he is her first love. Which also isn't true. She simply lies and hides all that from him. He was an evil person, from her point of view. She does hate him from the bottom of her heart (although that might have changed since he saved them), that doesn't mean, she is willing to ask for help from that same person. Again, for the umpth time, Hitagi going to Kaiki, is a strong emphasis on the situation their were in, asking the help from the demon if you will. She had feelings for Kaiki, for the simple reason she had feeling for Araragi, because he was her knight in shinning armor, that was going to save her, but that turned out to be true for Araragi, and not Kaiki, hence why Araragi is her first true love, while Kaiki isn't. Not that hard to understand. She didn't lie and hide anything from him. She only hid, the fact she asked Kaiki for help, and for obvious reasons. Not telling someone something is not the same as lying. **** 6) Before he's going to Sengoku to tell her that Araragi etc. died, Kaiki and Senjougahara have one more phone call. He doesn't need any information, he's not asking for anything. And still, she asks Kaiki: "Do you want to see/meet me one last time?" We don't exactly know what's being implied here, but there are 2 possibilities. [.....]. Good god... Ah, forget it, I'm not gonna reply past this. |
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| unless you've read the light novels and there was additional information which we anime-viewers didn't have access to, then it's all just speculation.. on your part, but the same goes for me there was no "proof" that she wasn't ready to sell her body for money. Lots of people believe that she was just playing him, but lots of people also believe that she was willing to do that. Opinions. Speculation. why did you stop replying past #6? let me guess.. because it's so ridiculous, right? i don't think so.. especially if we consider what she said in Nisemonogatari about that sort of thing to Araragi. Those were her words. All im saying is that i found the "development" of Senjougahara in that last arc to be extremely disappointing. Had she always been like this.. then i wouldn't have started a discussion about it, that's what this is. to me she just seemed like a different character and i was disappointed by the development. You can defend your waifu all day long and be her white knight, i don't mind. I just wanted to read some other opinions regarding that matter. there's really no need for you to act like such a child though, you've got some anger-issues, tough guy? ----------- btw.. the part about "it's from Kaiki's point of view", i agree with you on that. Especially since he said (in the beginning) something along the lines of: "listen carefully blabla.. some things might be true, others not.. you have to decide which is which" something that wasn't from Kaiki's point of view though, but actually Senjougahara's words from Nisemonogatari (quoting myself): "Back then.. she told Araragi that she doesn't think of sleeping with someone else as betrayal/cheating. Or that she doesn't think of it as something unforgivable or bad. She would just not allow him to fall in love with someone else, that's something she couldn't forgive. That's what she thinks about it. Those are her beliefs. Therefore it doesn't just apply to Araragi, but also to her as well." ---> which is one of the reasons why i listed #6 b it's obviously all just speculation though. But still.. she did say that |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 11:07 AM
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| Disliked her since the beginning, Kanbaru is automatically best girl because of Sawashiro, Miyuki |
mclovinballz said: Disliked her since the beginning, Kanbaru is automatically best girl because of Sawashiro, Miyuki Kanbaru is obviously amazing! still have to watch Hanamonogatari later! i've read that it's not THAT good though :( |
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| I don't see any of Senjougahara's actions in Koimonogatari as being good enough reason to dislike her other than for petty reasons regarding views on romantic relationships. If anything, Koimonogatari showed her agency as a headstrong yet vulnerable female protagonist and for that, I admire her strength in being able to retract from her mistakes and still manage to maintain her free-willing personality by playing the teasing archetype of the tsundere (a role she touts herself as and in doing so, utterly subverts by "playing along" with such expectation). Yes, Koimonogatari teased on a "relationship" between Kaiki and Senjougahara in the past, but more than anything it showed that Kaiki was someone who was once treated as something "special" only for Senjougahara to view as scum (likeable scum, but scum nonetheless). You ought to realize that Senjougahara prized the idea of someone saving her from her past situation, and while she was initially thankful for Kaiki coming in to do just that, she was more than grateful to have Araragi be the person to truly take her out of it. It's a crucial part of her personality that shouldn't be ignored, and it's why she was so happy to find someone as virtuous as Araragi since it was more than she could ever have asked for. The whole point of Senjougahara confronting Kaiki in Nisemonogatari was to showcase how Senjougahara felt towards people she cared about. Kaiki described Senjougahara as treating every new relationship she had as if she had fallen in love for the first time, every single time. In that regard, Kaiki was part of a past she didn't want to mix with her present, and it makes sense why she didn't Araragi and Kaiki to meet as it "destroys" the illusion of a newfound relationship. That was the point Kaiki made in telling her not to dwell on what happened to her past. In this regard, it makes utter sense why Senjougahara's personal encounters with Kaiki would be so "different" if Araragi were in the vicinity. More than anything, Senjougahara showing that she's willing to do anything to save Araragi was an element of strength and weakness that Kaiki appreciated and disliked about her current self. It showed that Senjougahara still maintained her agency, and the fact that she treated Kaiki as if he's willing to partake in her offering her body shows how lowly she views Kaiki (something he obviously took offense to by throwing his drink at her). Admittedly this was part of why Kaiki disliked Araragi, in that her utter devotion towards the latter had almost entirely removed her sense of self-preservation (something he was fond of in terms of her ultra-violent nature in Bakemonogatari). At the same time it coincides with what he appreciates about her views, in the first place: in that she treats Araragi as if he's her first love. Was her suggestion of offering her body tasteless? Why yes, but to suggest that it's because she wants to engage in some sexual relationship with Kaiki is downright absurd when the characters' motives are laid out very clearly throughout the story. Not to mention, saying that her doing "anything" for Kaiki somehow instantly translates as some sort of sexual provocation is just purely speculative at this point when there's little no evidence presented other than her willingness to act out just so Kaiki will persist in pursuing his con towards Nadeko. If anything, it adds to her insulting Kaiki's nature as a conman in that she constantly vents her feelings of bitterness towards him by implicating him as a disgusting middle-aged man that took advantage of a young girl. Is it cheap of her to keep taunting Kaiki like that? Yes of course, but I don't see it as anything remotely "pathetic" as it actually shows how she's willing to maintain her ground regarding her feelings of bitterness towards someone who she once admired and felt betrayal from. Whether you view that as despicable or not is entirely up to you, but more than anything it brought back part of what made her so appealing in Bakemonogatari while showcasing her growth as someone who finally has something at stake; to the point where she's willing to do anything in order to protect those she deems precious. Feel free to disagree with me but all the things you've presented have literally done nothing in terms of ruining Senjougahara's character in my eyes. Attributing her actions as simply being "flirty" and acting out "behind Araragi's back" as if it's something to fault her for and cry immorality is just downright unfair when the motivations and nuances displayed by both Kaiki and Senjougahara showed much more than just a typical two-timing narrative. It showed that Senjougahara possessed strength and weaknesses as a character, and to have Kaiki in the forefront as the narrator showed that she's still just a young girl in her own right and not the untouchable powerhouse of a tsundere she seemed in Bakemonogatari. Koimonogatari gave her depth and showed that she's not as simple-minded in her dealings with the people she has feelings for while still maintaining that venomous streak that made her so comically endearing in Bakemonogatari. Koimonogatari may have played on the notion of "romance" (something that was clearly lamp-shaded and played for laughs even with the retro-styled opening of the arc), but it showed the mutual fondness, understanding, and admiration that was shared between Kaiki and Senjougahara; showing a side of the her that fully rounded out her character while showing glimpses of her past self. So no, I didn't dislike Senjougahara after Koimonogatari. In fact, it reaffirmed my liking for her character. As an aside, bringing in Araragi, are you serious? I love Araragi as much as the next guy (he's a great male protagonist with a lot of depth), but he practically sexually harassed Hachikuji on a regular basis (yes, kissing and groping a little girl's breasts actually counts) and even nearly sexually assaulted Nadeko in her arc. He practically has a self-admitted attraction and craving for his little sisters and outright plays with the idea of incest while excusing it as "normal" for siblings. And yet, somehow just because Senjougahara "flirts" with Kaiki in one arc, it's instantly sacrilege and "pathetic" of her to act in such a way? Good lord, the double-standard is strong in this one. -_- |
ronriSep 1, 2014 3:12 AM
| edit: ronri's post made mine useless XD Romeo said: only for people who have finished watching this anime there will be no "TL;DR".. so if it's too long for you, simply stay out of this topic :) -------------------------- So.. let me get straight to the point. After finishing the last arc (Hitagi End) a few days ago.. I'm really disappointed by the "development" of Senjougahara. This season i found her to be extremely weak, cheap and dishonest towards Araragi, and there are a couple of reasons for that. 1) There were still like 74 days or so left before their graduation (enough time to come up with a plan), but she still chose to call and meet Kaiki (a man she supposedly hates). They tried to solve the problem on their own, involving Hanekawa and going to the shrine multiple times, but they didn't get any results. Also, it's clear that her feelings for Kaiki are much more complex than 'hate'. 2) She doesn't tell Araragi that she's going to meet him. She hides that fact from him. She looks for absurd reasons that would justify that.. obviously he wouldn't just go berserk and kill him, we've seen that. And Senjougahara knew that. Araragi would never accept help from someone that he deemed evil, and he would try to do everything on his own (he's more than willing to die for Sengoku). 3) She made it abundantly clear that she's willing to sell her body in order to earn enough money so Kaiki will save her "beloved" Araragi. I'm sure Araragi would have been extremely happy about that.. I know she was almost raped once, but that doesn't make this offer somehow tragically romantic.. she'd just be a simple whore. And she knows that Araragi wouldn't be happy about that. She'd just lie to him and be happy about having saved Araragi in such a way. Even after Kaiki refuses, throughout the arc.. she keeps bringing it up and without being asked.. she just keeps saying: "I'm willing to do anything" // "I'm prepared to do anything". Pretty pathetic and cheap. 4) Even if meant as a joke, she was still flirting with him. a) Kaiki calls: "I have a question" --> "I'm wearing blue underwear" b) Senjougahara: "How does it feel to have total control over a high school girl//high school girl's body?" + all the other conversations + meetings with him - all behind Araragi's back Yes, Senjougahara still felt something for him, but even the fact that she would have sex with Kaiki doesn't make her a whore (which is a term I hate). By meeting with him, she was probably trying to settle things with the past, and she found out that she still cared for him. Regarding the flirting, she acts and speaks that way with Araragi all the time since season 1, and she's more comfortable regarding sex than your stereotypical innocent girl from other anime. That still doesn't make her a whore. She is flawed, and she was being a bit unfaithful to her boyfriend, but she doesn't mind when Araragi does the same, and I don't think this side of her deserves such a harsh critic. 5) She led Araragi to believe that Kaiki is simply an evil person.. and that she simply hates him from the bottom of her heart. That is clearly not the case. It wasn't a relationship, but there was clearly something between them when Senjougahara met Kaiki for the first time. She had feelings for him (and so did he). She's also dishonest towards Araragi in making him believe that he is her first love. Which also isn't true. She simply lies and hides all that from him. + let's not forget that she said something along the lines of: "Kaiki, I feel lonely knowing that this is going to be our last conversation" Girls do this all the time. Even Kaiki states that she treats every relationship like her first love. She felt betrayed by Kaiki and wanted to convince herself that she didn't feel anything for him, and she lies to Araragi because: 1) she is also lying to herself; 2) She wants their relationship to be special (their first love), like every other girl in the world. You may consider this "wrong", but I think it's a good way to add depth to her, since making her less likeable doesn't necessarily mean that she became a worse character. **** 6) Before he's going to Sengoku to tell her that Araragi etc. died, Kaiki and Senjougahara have one more phone call. He doesn't need any information, he's not asking for anything. And still, she asks Kaiki: "Do you want to see/meet me one last time?" We don't exactly know what's being implied here, but there are 2 possibilities. a) They'd simply go to the café again and talk. b) If he said so, she was willing to spend the night with him. Why do I think that "b" would also be a possibility? - First.. the way she asked him was kind of weird.. Something was definitely being implied there. - Senjougahara lied the whole time and was dishonest towards Araragi in this arc. Clearly we don't know what she's truly capable of. and most important of all.. it's because of something she said to Araragi (it was in Nisemonogatari, i believe) Back then.. she told Araragi that she doesn't think of sleeping with someone else as betrayal/cheating. Or that she doesn't think of it as something unforgivable or bad. She would just not allow him to fall in love with someone else, that's something she couldn't forgive. That's what she thinks about it. Those are her beliefs. Therefore it doesn't just apply to Araragi, but also to her as well. **** Again, this doesn't mean that her development is bad. If Kaiki had met her one more time, perhaps she would have really fallen in love for him. Maybe she liked him even more than Araragi, and she would have given up on her harsh attitude towards Kaiki and accepted her feelings. Yes, she would have been cheating on her boyfriend (even according to her personal, less strict rules), but that's how life works. Even in the previous seasons, she had her own ideals and beliefs, and the fact that they were a bit different from the norm didn't make her a bad character. Maybe we will see her and Araragi confront each other in future seasons? I'm sorry, but this thread felt like "Senjougahara is bad now because she isn't the perfect waifu for our harem lead". |
Lollo36Aug 28, 2014 2:47 PM
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kokusho36 said: Regarding the flirting, she acts and speaks that way with Araragi all the time since season 1, and she's more comfortable regarding sex than your stereotypical innocent girl from other anime. That still doesn't make her a whore. She is flawed, and she was being a bit unfaithful to her boyfriend, but she doesn't mind when Araragi does the same, and I don't think this side of her deserves such a harsh critic. Agree with these answers in particular. If anything these characteristics reinforced WHY Senjougahara was so infectious as a character. Not every girl has to be "pure" in their conduct and even in Bakemonogatari, aside from her flirtatious nature and outrageous claims (something that she rarely ever acts upon in the first place and uses mainly for mind games), she's been shown to be nearly violently psychopathic in the way she treats others (even those who might care for her like Kanbaru). Somehow being purposefully flirty with very little commitment in her claims makes her immoral all of sudden? kokusho36 said: Girls do this all the time. Even Kaiki states that she treats every relationship like her first love. She felt betrayed by Kaiki and wanted to convince herself that she didn't feel anything for him, and she lies to Araragi because: 1) she is also lying to herself; 2) She wants their relationship to be special (their first love), like every other girl in the world. You may consider this "wrong", but I think it's a good way to add depth to her, since making her less likeable doesn't necessarily mean that she became a worse character. This is very true. The fact that she's even able to play it up as some sexual exploitation on Kaiki's part really shows how much she felt betrayed by Kaiki. Yeah it's not the most "ideal" quality for a virtuous girl, but Senjougahara was never one who possessed such virtues to mistreat those that she deems evil. She said it herself, she doesn't care about justice, she just views herself as an enemy to evil. |
ronriAug 28, 2014 2:55 PM
| "but even the fact that she would have sex with Kaiki doesn't make her a whore" what? that's exactly what she'd be.. of course we don't know anything for sure and it's all just speculation, but if she would have had sex with Kaiki (even though Arararagi is her boyfriend), she wouldn't be a whore/slut/bitch or whatever? that doesn't make any sense at all. what else would she be? none if this actually happened and again.. it's all just speculation, but you make it sound like cheating is simply a small mistake.. like arriving late to school.. @ronri good long post. i agree and disagree with some things :) |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 3:02 PM
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Romeo said: "but even the fact that she would have sex with Kaiki doesn't make her a whore" what? that's exactly what she'd be.. Except that didn't happen anyway so regardless of her intention, none of her propositions ever truly materialized. And seriously, calling out those who have literally been threatened to DEATH by an all-powerful snake god just because they're desperate to live and save their loved ones somehow makes them immoral and deserving of criticism and blatant slut-shaming? No offense, but you need to get your priorities straight if you're seriously basing your argument on that. |
| well.. that comment wasn't really regarding the "body selling"-part in that moment she wasn't suggesting selling her body to Kaiki anyway, but rather selling her body to others, thus earing money and giving Kaiki said money it was regarding #6 from my initial post, if she'd just see/meet him one last time and spend the night with him because kokusho36 said that having sex with Kaiki wouldn't make her a whore. I thought we were talking about consensual sex in this particular moment? which would simply be cheating and therefore classify as her being a whore. This is actually a different discussion now.. i'm just baffled because kokusho36 made it sound like cheating in a relationship is simply a small mistake and nothing serious -------------- i see nothing wrong with treating every new relationship as "your first big love" or whatever. just forget the previous person it didn't work out with and start anew. i don't understand lying about it though. lying about being in love before.. or being in a relationship before and meeting with a person she clearly doesn't only hate, but also has a past with.. had/has feelings for etc. all behind her boyfriends back. and not just to save Araragi and herself.. at the end she asked him if he wanted to see her one last time. (he didn't ask for this. he had all the information he needed to deceive sengoku at that point) and it's not about some waifu-shit or "need 100% pure and innocent girl for the perfect harem"-crap it's just that Senjougahara seemed like a different person to me. She was never your typical tsundere girl.. she was always different, a very interesting character. But she never behaved this way before which made it seem out of place (at least to me). of course.. this is an anime, but if you were in a relationship and your gf/bf behaved this way.. i highly doubt you'd like that very much |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 3:18 PM
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Romeo said: because kokusho36 said that having sex with Kaiki wouldn't make her a whore. I thought we were talking about consensual sex in this particular moment? Consensual or not, someone who proposes of selling their body as a desperate measure is not an immediate cause to harshly condemn them, especially when their own life and the lives of their loved ones are literally at stake. Is it a disgusting suggestion? Yes, but not for the reason of mere sexual and "unfaithful" encounters (hah!), rather it's practically an insult towards Kaiki's conduct of business and overall standards. Is it worth condemning her overall character for? Heck no. While it's not something I'm excusing her for, more than anything it actually shows how much of a twisted and antagonistic view that Senjougahara has towards Kaiki. |
ronriAug 28, 2014 3:25 PM
| im not talking about "yea.. consensual sex, get it over with, just save araragi" im talking about #6 from my initial post. everything was already done and over with and Kaiki was about to deceive sengoku. and THEN she asked him if he wanted to see/meet her one last time. She didn't have to pay anything back anymore or fulfill any request. this was of her own free will and at a moment at which she could already feel safe because Kaiki told her that it's gonna be fine and he's taking care of it now. She already paid him at that point. |
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Romeo said: im not talking about "yea.. consensual sex, get it over with, just save araragi" im talking about #6 from my initial post. everything was already done and over with and Kaiki was about to deceive sengoku. and THEN she asked him if he wanted to see/meet her one last time. She didn't have to pay anything back anymore or fulfill any request. this was of her own free will and at a moment at which she could already feel safe because Kaiki told her that it's gonna be fine and he's taking care of it now. She already paid him at that point. I literally just rewatched the exact scene and I have to greatly disagree. Kaiki literally took her gestures as an insult and Chiwa Saitou's voice delivery indicated a passive tone that felt closer to spite than genuine gratitude on Senjougahara's part; to the point that she even sounded patronizing. Even Kaiki catches on the act and calls her out on it as a bad joke on her part. In this regard no, there's no "request". There's no "hint" of her wanting to literally be with Kaiki at that very moment (her matter-of-factly delivery indicates as much). So no, much as I tried, I literally saw and heard nothing from that scene that indicated to me that Senjougahara somehow wanted to genuinely "spend time" with Kaiki in an endearing manner like, at all. |
ronriAug 28, 2014 4:23 PM
| hmn.. maybe i should watch it again later, i was actually pretty confident in my memory :D i thought it went like this: K: "this is going to be our last phone call.. blablabla" S: "Kaiki, i feel lonely knowing this is going to be our last phone call" and then later she asks "do you want to meet one last time?" (her looking sad while saying that) he says "No.." and then there's an internal monologue which goes like this: "there's no way she truly wanted to see me..... right?" maybe i had shitty subs or i'm simply remembering wrong. will have to check later/tomorrow. (last phone call before he visits Sengoku to deceive her) |
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| Nope, get over yourself. |
an egomaniac and a fool |
| doesn't have anything to do with "getting over myself" it's simply my opinion.. which you really don't have to agree with its an anime.. at the end of the day it's not a big deal.. a character i previously liked simply turned to shit (at least for me) the same thing happened with the One Piece anime for example.. which used to be extremely good, but turned into a 5/10 shounen anime since the time skip :/ there are actually people that think the anime has gotten better since the time skip. |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 3:54 PM
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| No seriously, watch it again. I don't get where you're coming from by thinking that Senjougahara was being genuine in her offer. Kaiki literally recognizes how she's just patronizing him, and for once he just decides to play along with her jokes until he gets sick of it by the end. The closest endearing moment in that entire conversation was how Senjougahara laughed at how Kaiki played along with her remarks, something that even Kaiki found a bit creepy since it was a sign of her old (more violent) self. Here's the conversation straight from the subtitles: Senjougahara: "But Kaiki... It does make me a bit lonely to think I'll only have two more conversations with you including this one..." [Kaiki monlogue] Senjougahara was saying something she obviously didn't mean. Do you think you can fool me with something like that? That's the type of insulting feeling I got, and so I... [cont'd] Kaiki: "That's how I feel too. To get in close contact with you like this made me remember two years ago. It was rather fun." [Kaiki continued monologue]... said something that I obviously didn't mean as well or maybe it was just something completely heartless. Senjougahara: *laughs* [Kaiki monologue] So eerie. She never laughed like that-- No, that was her two years ago. She's different now. More different than a complete stranger. Senjougahara: "Of course I think I will have a toast with Araragi. But, Kaiki, perhaps I need to give you something in thanks. You want to meet me one last time?" Kaiki: "No, there's no need for that. Quit with the bad jokes." So rest assured, Senjougahara wasn't making a genuine offer to spend time with him. More than anything, she was poking fun at him which ended with Kaiki playing along until he himself got sick of it. |
ronriAug 28, 2014 4:10 PM
| Senjougahara: "But Kaiki... It does make me a bit lonely to think I'll only have two more conversations with you including this one..." Senjougahara: "Of course I think I will have a toast with Araragi. But, Kaiki, perhaps I need to give you something in thanks. You want to meet me one last time?" those two really bothered me when watching it. i remember that they felt "genuine" (to me) at the time. Like Kaiki simply thought she was just making jokes, but didn't realize that slowly but surely Senjougahara wasn't playing around anymore.. but rather speaking the truth. i'll definitely rewatch that scene tomorrow -------------- and for those wondering.. yes, i do think what Araragi did was wrong as well. Even if he indeed sees Shinobu, Hachikuji etc. as little sisters (what kind of freak would grab his 8year old sisters tits? -.-), it's still wrong. And i'm not just talking about the fact that they're young, but simply because he has a girlfriend.. therefore he shouldn't mess around with all those girls. then again.. harem Oo i just think there are already enough posts about araragi and his tendencies.. and obviously those scenes are pretty hilarious (+ he was always like that) as i've said before.. the sudden change in senjougahara's character simply felt weird to me -------------- i didn't think anyone would actually post in this thread, thanks. and if.. i expected lots of "TL;DR?!?!" :p |
RomeoAug 28, 2014 4:20 PM
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| It's probably bothering you so much because she's being purposely flirty. I don't see any problem with it, it's very in-character with Senjougahara and there's literally no sense of commitment in the way she dramatizes her offer. Maybe she's being genuinely thankful (which is fair enough), albeit in a back-handed way, but genuinely wanting to spend time with Kaiki sounds like a huge stretch. The fact that she's poking fun at Kaiki makes it even more obvious that there wasn't any intention of actually getting together with him. In context of the narrative, it makes no sense at all, and for it to be treated as something serious actually contradicts the whole setup of the scene, as well as Kaiki's following remarks and how he keeps berating her afterwards (something even he feels bad about upon realizing how he's taking cheap jabs at a high school kid). |
ronriAug 31, 2014 1:18 AM
tsudecimo said: ThisRomeo said: So.. let me get straight to the point. After finishing the last arc (Hitagi End) a few days ago.. I'm really disappointed by the "development" of Senjougahara. This season i found her to be extremely weak, cheap and dishonest towards Araragi, and there are a couple of reasons for that. I'm probably gonna regret seriously replying to this.. 1) There were still like 74 days or so left before their graduation (enough time to come up with a plan), but she still chose to call and meet Kaiki (a man she supposedly hates). What plan exactly? there was a strong emphasis, that Kaiki is a last resort. That Hitagi going to him for help, was a true sign of how desperate their situation was. 2) She doesn't tell Araragi that she's going to meet him. She hides that fact from him. She looks for absurd reasons that would justify that.. obviously he wouldn't just go berserk and kill him, we've seen that. And Senjougahara knew that. Why would she tell him? She obviously knows that Araragi will be against that, and will try to stop her. There are no absurd reasons for that, I already mentioned why. I have no idea what you are even talking about. 3) She made it abundantly clear that she's willing to sell her body in order to [....]. No, that's a misinterpretation on your part. She implied that, to see Kaiki's reaction, because even a person like himself, wouldn't allow to do that, so basically just to manipulate him, and make him agree to her request. Another emphasis on the situation being desparte. She wasn't seriously going to do that, it's all talk. Not to mention, this was from Kaiki's point of view, we don't know if she even implied that, we just know that she never done that. Ugh, this was I meant by regretting this...I don't want to read stupid crap like this. 4) Even if meant as a joke, she was still flirting with him. a) Kaiki calls: "I have a question" --> "I'm wearing blue underwear" b) Senjougahara: "How does it feel to have total control over a high school girl//high school girl's body?" + all the other conversations + meetings with him - all behind Araragi's back What are you getting at? All the small talk, and witty back and forth, is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. The important thing here, is that she met with him for a specific purpose, I don't see why you are trying to overexaggerate it, and make something out of nothing. Senjougahara made it perfectly clear how she feels about Araragi, and how she feels about Kaiki, back at Nisemonogatari. 5) She led Araragi to believe that Kaiki is simply an evil person.. and that she simply hates him from the bottom of her heart. That is clearly not the case. It wasn't a relationship, but there was clearly something between them when Senjougahara met Kaiki for the first time. She had feelings for him (and so did he). She's also dishonest towards Araragi in making him believe that he is her first love. Which also isn't true. She simply lies and hides all that from him. He was an evil person, from her point of view. She does hate him from the bottom of her heart (although that might have changed since he saved them), that doesn't mean, she is willing to ask for help from that same person. Again, for the umpth time, Hitagi going to Kaiki, is a strong emphasis on the situation their were in, asking the help from the demon if you will. She had feelings for Kaiki, for the simple reason she had feeling for Araragi, because he was her knight in shinning armor, that was going to save her, but that turned out to be true for Araragi, and not Kaiki, hence why Araragi is her first true love, while Kaiki isn't. Not that hard to understand. She didn't lie and hide anything from him. She only hid, the fact she asked Kaiki for help, and for obvious reasons. Not telling someone something is not the same as lying. **** 6) Before he's going to Sengoku to tell her that Araragi etc. died, Kaiki and Senjougahara have one more phone call. He doesn't need any information, he's not asking for anything. And still, she asks Kaiki: "Do you want to see/meet me one last time?" We don't exactly know what's being implied here, but there are 2 possibilities. [.....]. Good god... Ah, forget it, I'm not gonna reply past this. I simply recommend you to rewatch the series Romeo...I guess you missed the point of some conversations,or you just didnt pay much attention...If you watch it you will understand...Watch it carefully before jumping to the hate train... For Senjougahara:As it explained many times in ANIME,Senjougahara's behaviours are some kind of act...She acts that violent and abusive as protection...Then she mets Araragi,gets cured,accept herself as a whole,good things and bad things...After that she becomes gradually a "better" person,less abuse,NO more stationery stuff... For Kaiki:Do i have to explain this,he is the king of deceive and lies... For the last arc of Monogatari S2 you must keep those in mind...She is not the same Senjougahara you see in Bakemonogatari(Lol thats the message whole series give,if you didnt understand that so far...),but for the sake of Araragi,against Nadeko she needs help from Kaiki...So she put the mask on against Kaiki(She literally put the mask,if you watch it again) and confronted him...After that point if you take even a word spoken between Senjougahara and Kaiki as you heard, you will fail miserably...Every conversation between them is nothing but an act... Also Senjougahara said it to Araragi himself that she would fall in love with Kaiki if he was the one who saved her and implied that she had some kind of feelings for him which turned into hatred,later she said she is glad that Araragi saved her instead of any other...So i dont get it why you make it such a big problem... Edit:Ronri knows this stuff,you can thank him later for explaining it in such a good way unlike me... |
LoneWizzyAug 31, 2014 8:54 PM
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| It seems like this discussion is over, but I figure I'll chip in my two cents anyways. Think about it this way: people have emotional baggage that they carry around with them all the time. This generally isn't considered a good thing, especially in relationships, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does. A lot. Most people do this whether or not they want to because it's so difficult not to. Senjougahara's arc in Bakemonogatari was about getting her emotions back. In doing so, she also got her emotional baggage back. Her confrontation with Kaiki at the end of Nisemonogatari's Bee arc was how she decided to try to let go of her baggage and move past it. From what we see of her in Monogatari Second Season (she really doesn't get her own arc here; even Koimonogatari is much more Kaiki's arc than hers), this seems to have been pretty successful for the most part. With emotions, though, it's not usually a "one and done" kind of thing, especially when it involves multiple emotions that conflict and intertwine with each other. This is compounded by the incident with her family that surrounded those emotions. When I watched Koimonogatari I got the distinct impression that Senjougahara was still trying to work through those last tangles of emotional baggage that she'd carried from before. This included some lingering traces of the affection she initially held toward Kaiki. That affection is dwarfed, however, by her feelings of betrayal and bitterness toward Kaiki, as well as by her feelings of affection toward Araragi. During pretty much all of her interactions with Kaiki, it seemed to me like Senjougahara was getting past those last traces of affection she'd had for him in the past. At this point, that's my take on the general nature and tone of Senjougahara's interactions with Kaiki in Koimonogatari. Essentially, I think the slight "iffy-ness" on Senjougahara's part (and it was very slight) was intentional and served an important purpose in her characterization at this point in the series. |
Sejin said: When I watched Koimonogatari I got the distinct impression that Senjougahara was still trying to work through those last tangles of emotional baggage that she'd carried from before. This included some lingering traces of the affection she initially held toward Kaiki. That affection is dwarfed, however, by her feelings of betrayal and bitterness toward Kaiki, as well as by her feelings of affection toward Araragi. During pretty much all of her interactions with Kaiki, it seemed to me like Senjougahara was getting past those last traces of affection she'd had for him in the past. Absolutely spot-on, but I'm quoting this part because I feel that this is the biggest most important point about it. Couldn't have said it better myself. Emotions aren't so easily described in simple words as just definitive "I love you"s "I hate you"s, it's not as clear-cut as that. It's not that Senjougahara absolutely hated Kaiki in this arc, nor was she secretly "two-timing" Araragi (seriously just no). She was still dealing with her emotions, hence the indecisive and mixed bag of insults, thanks and retractions of said insults etc. Heck she still expresses genuine surprise that Kaiki actually decided to help her in Koimonogatari. Kaiki is an important figure of her past, so it'd make sense that his presence alone would bring back some of those lingering feelings she still has. She tries to deal with it by being very antagonistic towards him yet at the same time, she can't help but feel thankful towards him for actually helping her in this arc, especially since Kaiki is someone that she once actually admired or had feelings for. |
ronriSep 3, 2014 6:23 PM
| I'm pretty sure that everyone makes the excuse that she didn't mean what she said, and she was "acting" or whatever... if you act like a whore, you're a whore... I don't judge you by what you think, but with what you say or do; especially if you don't give any ACTUAL hint that you're joking.. also based on the situation that she was in, I don't think she's in the right situation for "joking" and/or "acting". She was that desperate? if Senjogahara and Araragi where that desperate, I'm sure if she'd told him, he'd agree.. I find my way of thinking similar to Araragi, if I was in that situation I'd totally understand and speak to Kaiki. It is totally unaccepted for her to go alone and tell him "Kaiki, I'd fuck you to save Araragi", because that's what the conversation felt like. She was so f*cking selfish. and because of that, and based on how bitchy the way she speaks in that situation, it felt like everything, the entire situation between Araragi and Snake is a freaking excuse to fuck Kaiki, especially because we are not sure if she still has feelings for him, actually based on everything, I am sure she does.. If I was Araragi, and I discovered what she had done, I'd fucking go out with Hanekawa now! "Emotional baggage" or whatever (seriously, couldn't you find better words for this, I am not a native English speaker but this expression feels so horrible and Vulgar)... Well, trying to deal with something like that without the knowledge of your partner... is cheating you know, betrayal, simply, even if you have the least amount of doubt, honesty is fucking important. I'm sure you'd totally be okay with the fact that your partner went to deal with his "Emotional baggage" when you're dying, totally fine with it, you are. what a (and excuse pls me for being rude) what a stupid way of thinking. if she went to talk to him, it's not because of her "Emotional baggage". well, ignore anything I said... I am going to ask you just one question, the main question, if you were Araragi, would you accept what she had done? I wouldn't , what she had done feels so wrong, I am not Araragi and I feel so betrayed, because I liked her at some point. if what she had done is right, why does it feel so wrong? The End does NOT justify the means; you can't kill everyone to make peace, the same thing here, you can't cheat on your lover, to make your relationship last, if only she had just simply spoken to Kaiki without being so intimidating and dishonest, that'd be okay. TO CUT A LONG STORY SHOT If I was going to save my partner's life by doing something he so strongly doesn't want me to do, I wouldn't do it by flirting with someone I used to like, and make everything look like it's an excuse for flirting with that someone, especially if that someone who is actually as helpless as I am. |
LeynirSep 4, 2014 12:14 AM
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Leynir said: -snip- Sorry, but the moment your post devolved into blatant slut-shaming it's hard to take your post seriously. Not to mention you're readily assuming that "everyone" is somehow trying to "excuse" her when I've blatantly outlined my opinion on the matter (which you seem to have ignored or misinterpreted as excusing everything as an "act"). |
ronri said: Leynir said: -snip- Sorry, but the moment your post devolved into blatant slut-shaming it's hard to take your post seriously. Not to mention you're readily assuming that "everyone" is somehow trying to "excuse" her when I've blatantly outlined my opinion on the matter (which you seem to have ignored or misinterpreted as excusing everything as an "act"). you're right, I am sorry, I didn't read your opinion, or anybody's... in fact, I don't think this is something to exchange opinions about.. it's just the matter of how you feel about it, and whether or not you want to see other people's feelings; because no matter what the other person's opinion is, it won't change your feelings about it that easily, or at least it won't change my feelings about it... I am sorry about being so close-minded in my previous post XD but really it's because when I tend to express my feelings, I tend to be close-minded because, you see feelings are close-minded or at least, my feelings are.. Why did I express my opinion when I think this is something we shouldn't exchange opinions about? because I didn't express my opinion, I expressed my feelings at least I hope you read this post XD |
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| I think Hitagi did her best though. I don't know why people can think something ridiculous about Hitagi. She did it right, I don't know if you lot can call something like that flirting, she obviously playing a mind game there and more or less that kind of thing is necessary in order to create an "identity" about "who i am" on Hitagi's side, if she appeared honest and straight-forward in front of Kaiki, that was the foolish action possible to take. She truly hated Kaiki even though Kaiki helped her, that's a fact. Now someone said about "the end does not justify the means" words about this. But hey, what Kaiki DID was the right one and what Araragi trying to do is the wrong one, if you want to talk about that. Automatically Hitagi too did the right thing. All that time, Araragi only came to the shrine to confront Sengoku and got himself dying because of it while Kaiki investigate all about her and try to understand her feeling in order to deceive her of course. edit : sorry for my words Strictly speaking, what Araragi trying to do is to get Sengoku back to be his harem member. while Kaiki did was discarded her from it. Tsukihi, Kaiki, and Shinobu already pointed out that Sengoku does not really loves araragi. She just love herself, she only use him so her life become easier. Like Shinobu said, she is enchanting. that 's why Kaiki and also Hitagi method was the right one. Involving Araragi with Kaiki method is a big no as he would refuse the "deceive Sengoku" method unless Hitagi said those "who the most important one" words which equally as bad as what Araragi trying to do. And of course in order to deceive sengoku, Araragi and the others didn't suit that role. But a stranger is the best choice and in this case, it was Kaiki. |
FlashofthebackSep 4, 2014 1:36 AM
Leynir said: you're right, I am sorry, I didn't read your opinion, or anybody's... in fact, I don't think this is something to exchange opinions about.. it's just the matter of how you feel about it, and whether or not you want to see other people's feelings; because no matter what the other person's opinion is, it won't change your feelings about it that easily, or at least it won't change my feelings about it... I am sorry about being so close-minded in my previous post XD but really it's because when I tend to express my feelings, I tend to be close-minded because, you see feelings are close-minded or at least, my feelings are.. Why did I express my opinion when I think this is something we shouldn't exchange opinions about? because I didn't express my opinion, I expressed my feelings at least I hope you read this post XD Fair enough! While I'm in disagreement in regards to your opinion, I can definitely respect that you were just expressing how you felt about it, and I totally have no problems with that. ^_^ |
ronri said: Emotions aren't so easily described in simple words as just definitive "I love you"s "I hate you"s, it's not as clear-cut as that. It's not that Senjougahara absolutely hated Kaiki in this arc, nor was she secretly "two-timing" Araragi (seriously just no). She was still dealing with her emotions, hence the indecisive and mixed bag of insults, thanks and retractions of said insults etc. Heck she still expresses genuine surprise that Kaiki actually decided to help her in Koimonogatari. Kaiki is an important figure of her past, so it'd make sense that his presence alone would bring back some of those lingering feelings she still has. She tries to deal with it by being very antagonistic towards him yet at the same time, she can't help but feel thankful towards him for actually helping her in this arc, especially since Kaiki is someone that she once actually admired or had feelings for. Yay specifics! This is pretty much what I was trying to articulate as well, but I didn't remember the specifics very well, just my general impressions of the arc. Leynir said: I'm pretty sure that everyone makes the excuse that she didn't mean what she said, and she was "acting" or whatever... if you act like a whore, you're a whore... I don't judge you by what you think, but with what you say or do; especially if you don't give any ACTUAL hint that you're joking.. also based on the situation that she was in, I don't think she's in the right situation for "joking" and/or "acting". Well, when judging someone based on their actions, you need to take the motivations and intentions behind those actions into account. Otherwise, you can't possibly understand the entirety of what's going on. Leynir said: She was that desperate? if Senjogahara and Araragi where that desperate, I'm sure if she'd told him, he'd agree.. I find my way of thinking similar to Araragi, if I was in that situation I'd totally understand and speak to Kaiki. It is totally unaccepted for her to go alone and tell him "Kaiki, I'd fuck you to save Araragi", because that's what the conversation felt like. She was so f*cking selfish. and because of that, and based on how bitchy the way she speaks in that situation, it felt like everything, the entire situation between Araragi and Snake is a freaking excuse to fuck Kaiki, especially because we are not sure if she still has feelings for him, actually based on everything, I am sure she does.. If I was Araragi, and I discovered what she had done, I'd fucking go out with Hanekawa now! I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. I tend to think that Araragi doesn't have some undying hatred toward Kaiki. His negative feelings toward Kaiki probably aren't anywhere near the level of Senjougahara's. However, he's really stubborn and can be more than a little self-righteous. By this point in the series, though, he's matured a little bit. Overall, if Senjougahara kept discussing it with him, I think that after so long he might agree to it. I'm really unsure about it, though. I can see it easily going either way. I think the main point is that having Araragi involved would, at the very least, make Senjougahara's efforts to resolve the thing with Sengoku via Kaiki much, much more difficult. I think there's a lot of hyperbole in this part of your post in particular. It also seems like you might've missed a lot of subtext. The fact that someone spends time with a person they used to have feelings for doesn't automatically make it cheating. Again, you have to take their motivation and intention into consideration. You also ignore the fact that in addition to her lingering affection for Kaiki (which is very minute at this point), Senjougahara feels a lot of betrayal and bitterness toward Kaiki. She doesn't just feel lingering affection for him and nothing else. And she also has much greater affection for Araragi. I find it surprising that you'd suggest that Araragi would simply leave Senjougahara over this, especially to go out with Tsubasa (who he'd previously rejected at the end of Nekomonogatari: White precisely because he was in love with Senjougahara and had every intention of keeping things that way). He might be hurt by it (again, I'm not entirely certain about this), but I think after having it explained to him he'd easily be able to forgive Senjougahara for dealing with Kaiki to resolve the issue without telling him. I don't think he's the kind of person who would just automatically make an incredibly harsh judgment like that, and then act in such a cruel way. And I hadn't even mentioned how incredibly unfair and hurtful it would be to Tsubasa. Notice how I didn't mention anything about cheating. That's because Senjougahara's actions are not cheating. Her interactions with Kaiki weren't some secret tryst. They were essentially business meetings/transactions. Yes, Senjougahara was still trying to deal with the traces of her still slightly-conflicting emotions. That's the thing, though: she was dealing with them, getting over them, getting past them, not embracing them in the slightest. She knows she has this slight conflict left over to deal with. She knows she doesn't want to keep it. She knows she wants to be with Araragi. She has all of this in her mind as she's dealing with Kaiki. Interacting with him the way she did was a purposeful attempt by her to work through the last bits of her conflicting emotions. Again, motivation and intention are important. Leynir said: "Emotional baggage" or whatever (seriously, couldn't you find better words for this, I am not a native English speaker but this expression feels so horrible and Vulgar)... Well, trying to deal with something like that without the knowledge of your partner... is cheating you know, betrayal, simply, even if you have the least amount of doubt, honesty is fucking important. I'm sure you'd totally be okay with the fact that your partner went to deal with his "Emotional baggage" when you're dying, totally fine with it, you are. what a (and excuse pls me for being rude) what a stupid way of thinking. if she went to talk to him, it's not because of her "Emotional baggage". Being a native English-speaker, and having used the term "emotional baggage" many, many times, I can say with 100% certainty that it is not a vulgar term in the slightest. It's the perfect term to convey what I wanted to convey. A baggage (think luggage that you carry for travel, like a suitcase) is something that you carry around with you, often for prolonged periods of time. It contains things you already have and are bringing with you to wherever you're going, sometimes a lot of things. It can be big. It can be unwieldy. It's heavy. It's cumbersome. Now apply this to emotion. Specifically, it's most often used to refer to the emotions that people carry with them from relationship to relationship, and through life in general. These are emotions that, if left unresolved, can cause problems in future relationships. They're like a baggage: often multiple and/or complex, difficult to deal with (unwieldy), and cumbersome (they get in the way). That is precisely what the term "emotional baggage" conveys, which is exactly what I wanted to convey. As you can see, it's not vulgar in the slightest. It's based on a universal human truth about how our minds work. Now, I agree with you that it's best to discuss important things with your significant other, especially if those things involve him or her. Like you, I personally dislike that Senjougahara didn't do that. However, given everything I and others have said about the motivations and intentions behind Senjougahara's actions, I can easily, easily understand where she's coming from and forgive her for them. Honestly, though, I don't think there's much to forgive. Again considering her motivations and intentions, I don't think she really did much of anything wrong aside from not talking it over with Araragi (and even with that I can see why she might be hesitant to do so, because of uncertainty about how he'd react and the possibility that it might make what she's trying to do much more difficult). All things considered, that's a pretty minor quibble. Also, Senjougahara didn't ask for Kaiki's help with Sengoku just to deal with her own emotional baggage. Her main, explicit reason was that she thought that Kaiki might be able to successfully convince Sengoku to not kill Araragi and everyone else (this includes herself). She did deal with her emotional baggage while she was at it, but so what? Why is that not allowed? Again, it's not like that was her primary purpose for hiring Kaiki, and it's not like she's doing this just for Araragi. By this point, it's shown that she also has good relationships with Tsubasa and Kanbaru. It's not just about saving Araragi (who, along with Shinobu, might actually be the only one who wouldn't need saving in this situation). Also, Araragi wasn't dying right then. Heck, I wonder if Sengoku would even be able to kill him, seeing as he's a pseudo-vampire with ridiculous regeneration capabilities. Leynir said: well, ignore anything I said... I am going to ask you just one question, the main question, if you were Araragi, would you accept what she had done? I wouldn't , what she had done feels so wrong, I am not Araragi and I feel so betrayed, because I liked her at some point. if what she had done is right, why does it feel so wrong? The End does NOT justify the means; you can't kill everyone to make peace, the same thing here, you can't cheat on your lover, to make your relationship last, if only she had just simply spoken to Kaiki without being so intimidating and dishonest, that'd be okay. Yes, I would accept what she did. I can easily accept what she did. It seems like you're immensely exaggerating the things that could be (mis)interpreted as cheating and ignoring a lot of everything else (again: motivation, intention, subtext). Leynir said: you're right, I am sorry, I didn't read your opinion, or anybody's... in fact, I don't think this is something to exchange opinions about.. it's just the matter of how you feel about it, and whether or not you want to see other people's feelings; because no matter what the other person's opinion is, it won't change your feelings about it that easily, or at least it won't change my feelings about it... I am sorry about being so close-minded in my previous post XD but really it's because when I tend to express my feelings, I tend to be close-minded because, you see feelings are close-minded or at least, my feelings are.. Why did I express my opinion when I think this is something we shouldn't exchange opinions about? because I didn't express my opinion, I expressed my feelings Well, the distinction between opinions and feelings isn't really a clear-cut line. Our feelings influence our opinions and our opinions influence our feelings. Also, you should probably read the post(s) you're responding to. After having said all of this, I want to make it clear that I'm genuinely not saying you're "wrong" or anything of the sort. Opinion is just that: opinion. It's subjective. And this being an artistic thing we're talking about, that's kinda the point. We can discuss them and debate points based on our differing perceptions, rather than argue about being right or wrong (discussion > debate > argument). Different people will see it differently. I'm expressing my opinion/feelings, and in doing so I'm pointing out why I disagree with your opinion. |
SejinSep 4, 2014 12:38 PM
Sejin said: I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. I tend to think that Araragi doesn't have some undying hatred toward Kaiki. His negative feelings toward Kaiki probably aren't anywhere near the level of Senjougahara's. However, he's really stubborn and can be more than a little self-righteous. By this point in the series, though, he's matured a little bit. Overall, if Senjougahara kept discussing it with him, I think that after so long he might agree to it. I'm really unsure about it, though. I can see it easily going either way. I think the main point is that having Araragi involved would, at the very least, make Senjougahara's efforts to resolve the thing with Sengoku via Kaiki much, much more difficult. (A bit OT Sejin, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway) Funny you should mention that. Recently I've been re-watching Araragi's interactions with Kaiki across the series. The funny thing is, beyond Kaiki's involvement with Karen, Araragi never seemed to express any blatant hatred towards him. He's mostly shown to simply be wary of him (and rightfully so considering Kaiki's occupation as a conman). Heck, by the end of Koimonogatari, even though he seemed concerned with the idea of Kaiki confronting Nadeko, he practically ends up asking advice from Kaiki on how to deal with Nadeko. It's interesting how the two are framed as very self-serving, yet one is more likely to lean towards evil deeds while the other is more likely to lean towards good ones. Araragi is not like Karen or Kanbaru (as shown in Hanamonogatari) who are virtuous by nature, he's actually far more self-serving and more similar to Kaiki in this regard. That's where Araragi's "self-righteousness" comes from, not because he has a firm sense of justice, but because of his willingness to selectively act on what concerns him on a personal level. In this regard, I wouldn't even call him self-righteous, as he actually views his actions as being purposely selfish where sometimes morality doesn't even factor into his motives (regardless of him taking the side of "good" or "evil"). It just so happens that this selfishness tends to lean closer towards seemingly good deeds, just as Kaiki's selfishness often manifests as evil ones. Araragi isn't someone who's an outright do-gooder, in fact he blatantly says that if he can't solve a problem, he's more likely to quit in the end. The same way that Kaiki isn't inherently malicious in his motives, rather he's prone to acting out evil deeds due to his expertise and business as a conman. Amusingly, I realized that despite Araragi's nature of helping close friends, he's actually a lot more passive in his methods unlike Kaiki who's more proactive and persistent when it comes to personal matters. I do find it interesting how despite their differences, there's a lot of parallels made between the two characters. One of my favorites is when Kaiki was helping out Senjougahara, she developed some feelings towards him, yet his persistent nature actually ended up making things worse for her. Conversely, Nadeko developed feelings for Araragi, yet it's Araragi's passive nature (having never properly confronted her about her love) that caused her to spiral into madness. In the end, Araragi's passive nature and very presence alone (simply being there as a shoulder to lean on) helped Senjougahara rebuild herself. On the other hand, Kaiki's headstrong and persistent nature (going out of his way research and positively convince Nadeko to pursue her dream) ended up being the right kind of help that Nadeko had needed for so long. But yeah, just thought I'd share my recent observations of Kaiki and Araragi's interactions and respective character roles. ^_^ |
ronriSep 4, 2014 1:43 PM
| So, I decided to rewatch Koimonogatari to make sure of how I felt about it, I watched it about a year ago, well it feels like a year, I wanted to make sure I didn't carry an "emotional baggage" of hatred from then, because I can actually say that I might have been emotionally immature at the time... and I ended up watching every episode Kaiki appeared in, so Koimonogatari and one in Nisemonogatari... are there any other episodes? XD now after I've done that I am gonna say that in my previous post, I was a little, actually very harsh when I said whore and you can say that I've gone from completely hating what she had done to understanding it, to a degree at least. However, there is still something suspicious, something I don't understand, most of the time, it's true, it felt like she was going on a business deal and that is fine. But at some point she said... a few things I didn't like, her intentions weren't clear at that moment, I felt suspicious, and that I didn't like. For example: -"Blue underwear" why the heck would she say that? why? joking? is this the time for joking? huh -Phone call at the end of Koi, she asked "Do you think I loved you 2 years ago, kaiki?" and then saying that she totally did not... well, she's a tsundere, what she said can't in any way be trusted... and frankly, the way she said it, I thought that she would only speak that way only to Araragi. -The fact that she sent the letter "Don't interfere". the fact that she understood Kaiki so much, gives me a hint that her relationship with Kaiki was even deeper than I thought. -The Opening...... hahaha XD Those moments and a few others, made me feel... quite uneasy... I don't know if the Anime fully conveyed the message and the feelings in the Novel, I need to read the novel to fully understand her feelings so I am waiting for it to get translated; hoping that she was the narrator. Also, I need to understand her relationship with Kaiki, seriously Nisio Isin, if you wrote this arc to make us understand their relationship, I am gonna kick your ass... you couldn't have confused me more... and third, In the future I want to see if Senjougahara had told Araragi the truth or not, about what had happen. Now, what she had done, going to Kaiki behind Araragi's back, is totally acceptable, actually she made the right choice... I don't dislike the fact that she had done that... what I disliked is the fact that at some point, her intentions weren't clear, she faltered, weakened... because she wanted to deal with them. well, that's what's torturing me, is -- the fact the she needs to deal with them, she wants to 'deal' with them... you don't deal with them unless you HAVE something to deal with... she has something to deal with... she HAS something to deal with XD (that's my train of thoughts) I don't dislike Kaiki as a character, I like him, he has depth, he is very deep actually, just like the characters in monogatari, I understand him, and I can say, fully. I can fully understand him... actually I can understand all the characters in monogatari, fully, and thoroughly swim in their feelings and explore all the corners in their hearts. Well, except for Senjougahara in Koimonogatari, I still can't understand her fully, she was very easily understandable in all other arcs, which make me feel she's a bit out of character but could it be because I don't understand the type of the relationship she had with kaiki? most likely (another train of thoughts XD) I can't understand her without fully knowing how she felt 2 years ago, because it's unknown, everything is possible, but what we saw here in Koimonogatari points out that their relationship wasn't simply that he tried to save her and she had feelings for him, I can say that it was way way way way deeper than that, a relationship just as deep as the one she has with Araragi... or at least she still thinks their relationship was as deep, even though at the end phone call she said she didn't love him, which was obviously a lie (or that was the message conveyed by the anime)... when she said that all I thought of was "she totally did love him... shit!" A relationship as deep as Araragi's... isn't something you'd forget that easily, no matter how things turned out to be... she still has some feelings... would you go out with someone who still has feelings for someone else? who still needs to 'deal' with something? I know I never would accept that... don't go into a relationship if you didn't get over the previous one yet... that's rule number one for me when it comes to relationships XD Sejin said: After having said all of this, I want to make it clear that I'm genuinely not saying you're "wrong" or anything of the sort. Opinion is just that: opinion. It's subjective. And this being an artistic thing we're talking about, that's kinda the point. We can discuss them and debate points based on our differing perceptions, rather than argue about being right or wrong (discussion > debate > argument). Different people will see it differently. I'm expressing my opinion/feelings, and in doing so I'm pointing out why I disagree with your opinion. Opinions... I am not asking for opinions now though... what I truly want... all I want is to fully understand how she felt, it's unclear to me after Koimonogatari, I understand how she felt 99% of the time, but the remaining 1% is so confusing, and it's contradicting lots of stuff... Everyone discusses this 1%, it's the only thing to discuss, to give opinions about... because it's unclear, we give opinions about it, everyone takes their thoughts and forces them into Senjougahara... that's not what I want, no matter what you think, it's not gonna change how she felt... I want what she felt, that's why I so desperately need to read the novel, and maybe one more arc about Kaiki and Senjougahara although I don't think there is one. goddamn it!!! I am sure there were things I missed at some point, of course. IF you can totally understand how she felt during the ENTIRE Koimonogatari then, lucky you. but If that's the case then I can't say that you're not missing something yourself. XD now if I want your opinion, I need your opinion of my opinion of opinions. what do you think? can you say something to make me change that? I need that :P ronri said: One of my favorites is when Kaiki was helping out Senjougahara, she developed some feelings towards him, yet his persistent nature actually ended up making things worse for her. Conversely, Nadeko developed feelings for Araragi, yet it's Araragi's passive nature (having never properly confronted her about her love) that caused her to spiral into madness. In the end, Araragi's passive nature and very presence alone (simply being there as a shoulder to lean on) helped Senjougahara rebuild herself. On the other hand, Kaiki's headstrong and persistent nature (going out of his way research and positively convince Nadeko to pursue her dream) ended up being the right kind of help that Nadeko had needed for so long. But yeah, just thought I'd share my recent observations of Kaiki and Araragi's interactions and respective character roles. ^_^ I can't possibly agree more XD a bit OT now... She did have feelings for Kaiki at some point, I don't know how big those feelings were but, in Koimonogatari, is it possible that she was so fragile that she felt/re-felt something towards Kaiki, even if just for a second? when I think of that, it's totally absurd and not in any way seems even close to Senjougahara's personality... but form what I've seen in Koi... there were moments that just.... made me think... (I want to say "I don't like that!" in japanese) XD PS.I am sorry if it seems like I ignored parts of your posts, because I just read parts of them... truth be told, I was gonna read everything and reply but after I finish writing what is above XD Monogatari is one of my favorite series of all time, so it's totally worth the time. actually It's THE ONLY thing worth the time, that's why I'll edit this post soon in the future to reply because I don't have time for that right now XD EDIT well, now after I've read OP's post after I rewatched Koimonogatari, I agree with most of what he said past point 4... Senjougahara was clearly flirting, you can't possibly say she wasn't can you, can you? you can't 100% say that she was joking because (and even if she was), you don't know how she felt, you just assume that she might have or assume the worst, that she really did mean to flirt with him, in which case is not acceptable from her (at least I can't accept it). it's the 2nd possibility that disgusts me; the fact that it's unclear. Senjougahara, the Character I know and love was a freaking BEAST, she was so strong after she got crab out, after she was weak and kaiki helped her before bakemono, she became so strong (maybe Kaiki meant for her to be like that)... it's that character, that I fell in love with... in Koimonogatari, she's a totally different character... I don't know who she is anymore.. could it be because that's the real her and she got exposed because of how weak she was? A strong person, is only strong because when he is exposed he remains the same, remains with the same mind, unmoved, like a giant mountain. Now, don't misunderstand, I am not saying that she totally still loves him, or anything.. all I am saying is there is this possibility, that she meant something when she flirted, she might have felt something when she spoke to him. You can't deny that; if you think you can, please go rewatch Koimonogatari and forget her relationship with Kaiki, forget everything before that and THEN tell me that she did not show something. that possibility, the fact that it's unclear.. is torturing me, something like this should never be left unclear.. Also, Nisio Isin... we're so freaking lacking in the Senjougahara x Araragi relationship that I started to be paranoid... the way she spoke to Kaiki, was very similar to Araragi at certain moments (that's how I felt, that's how it looked like), that's actually the main reason I broke so fast in the first time I watched Koi XD |
LeynirSep 6, 2014 5:34 AM
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| I already said it was "sense of identity" from Senjougahara. The way she speaking was her identity as Senjougahara Hitagi. So it's important to maintain that especially when you are dealing with someone like Kaiki. In a way or another, what she did was the right thing, included how she approaching Kaiki. Love or hate are two side of a coin, don't forget that, so you don't easily confused about it because it can be so similar in a sense. The way she speaking with Kaiki was also what surprised Kaiki saying "she comeback stronger than before" even though he though she will broke. Like i said, if she appeared honest and straight forward toward Kaiki, it will just make her character worst. She already said that she most likely will fall in love with someone who SAVE her. Kaiki is no different from that. That's why she said she was disgusted with how she is and eventually very delighted that it was Araragi who saved her. With that, Kaiki x Senjougahara are finished. She was thankful to him, but hate is still hate, that was how Senjougahara thinking. You can't say Senjougahara still love Kaiki even after him destroyed her family. She must be a worst character if she did. If i am try to make a simple example. It is like traveling with a sea-ship. I don't like it because traveling by the sea always make sea sick. But on a certain day i has no choice but to use the ship if i want to reach my destination. I used it and reached my destination. I am grateful for it because i reached my destination, but after all, it didn't change the fact that i got sea-sick and in the end, i still hate traveling by the sea. About how i appear to complain or praise the ship or the traveling, it is my "sense of identity". That's how Senjougahara character as how i see it in Koimonogatari. Senjougahra kept her identity intact because she wary about Kaiki gonna deceive her if she appeared honest and straight forward like the way you wanted it(but you are wrong), she still appear as strong woman and used her own method to deal with Kaiki. That's what makes her a great character. |
FlashofthebackSep 6, 2014 6:08 PM
Flashoftheback said: Senjougahra kept her identity intact because she wary about Kaiki gonna deceive her if she appeared honest and straight forward like the way you wanted it(but you are wrong), she still appear as strong woman and used her own method to deal with Kaiki. That's what makes her a great character. Even though she hated him so much, she was capable to show such self discipline... that's beautiful; because it was for her love, Araragi... but... is she really that much of an actor? if that's the case, if her acting skills are so good, should I believe everything she did before? should I trust everything she is gonna do in the future? should I believe everything she has said? She could have lied sometime; again, for her love for Araragi. I totally understood Senjougahara, at least before Koimonogatari... a few moments in Koimonogatari made me feel uneasy. what was she thinking? them I realized that I don't know for sure how her relationship with Kaiki truly was, neither do you... because whenever Senjougahara/Kaiki spoke about it, they weren't very clear, not clear at all. Now, what if she wasn't that good of an actor? hmm.. then she has felt something... that's even more horrifying :P Now that's my assumptions based on the Anime, I truly think that's not the case, I love Senjougahara, she's an awesome character, she's strong or she was maybe... that's why I believe the Anime left something... something important is missing! If that's not that case, then what Nisio Isin did to Senjougahara in Koi was turn her into a character that can't be trusted whenever she wanted to do something... She could have lied to Koyomi at some point because she loved him... can you for sure say that she did not? but I believe that's not the case, I believe that If I read the Novel I'd be able to see more details and thus, get the whole picture... I hope it's not the case. Here's an example: during a conversation in Koi, Senjougahara commented on what Kaiki had said in Nisemonogatari (about that he was her first love), that Koyomi believes Kaiki was her first love; because of the lie he said... based on their reactions, that's the truth... but at the end phone call, Why did she feel that it's so important to make sure that he doesn't believe that she didn't love him 2 years ago if both of them know that's not the case (because of that conversation)? obviously, this tells us to not believe one of the conversations... or, even, to not beleive both of them/ Obviously, Nisio Isin is another stupid human being, that can make stupid mistakes, just like all of us... If in the Novel, the situation isn't explained, then what had happened here isn't just a mistake... it's a horrible mistake; because if that's the case, then even he, when he wrote the novel, didn't understand the relationship between Senjougahara and Kaiki, when he wrote it, he still didn't know if to put Senjougahara in love with Kaiki or not... IF he hadn't decided how the relationship WAS, how the heck are we supposed to UNDERSTAND it? |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 12:13 AM
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Leynir said: i still dont understand why this would be horrifying?Its a fact that Senjougahara felt "something" for Kaiki back then when she was younger...Just try to empathise,you had to interact with your first love when you are in a relationship...She did not cheat or did something bad...Her feelings for Araragi is clear so it doesnt matter if she felt a little bit emotion for KaikiNow, what if she wasn't that good of an actor? hmm.. then she has felt something... that's even more horrifying :P And please keep in mind how Araragi feel for Hanekawa,i think its pretty similar.He felt something for her but it was not good to call it love... |
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LonelyWizard said: Ii still dont understand why this would be horrifying?Its a fact that Senjougahara felt "something" for Kaiki back then when she was younger...Just try to empathise,you had to interact with your first love when you are in a relationship...She did not cheat or did something bad...Her feelings for Araragi is clear so it doesnt matter if she felt a little bit emotion for Kaiki And please keep in mind how Araragi feel for Hanekawa,i think its pretty similar.He felt something for her but it was not good to call it love... I didn't make it clear, did I? it's not the fact the she did carry feelings for him 2 years ago that is horrifying... It's the fact that she might have felt something or re-felt what she had for him when she was talking to him in Koimonogatari... I know that thinking like that about Senjougahara, and knowing Senjougahara's personality... it's... it's absurd, right? it's impossible? but look at it, watch Koimonogatari, ignore everything before it (everything before it MIGHT have been a lie), just watch Koimonogatari like it's the first thing you DID watch... and then tell me she didn't show something for him... Compare Kaiki to Hanekawa? Well, Koyomi dones't hate Hanekawa... for someone who supposedly hates Kaiki so much, to show even for a little, some other feelings... what is this? did she really not hate him as much as we thought? maybe she still feels something? or is she really that small of a person? that weak? I liked Senjougahara because she was a beast, a monster, so strong, is this a different character? she certainly does look like it's not her character? did Nisio isin make a mistake here? could it be that I am missing something from the Novel? or was everything before just acting? |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 12:35 AM
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Leynir said: LonelyWizard said: Ii still dont understand why this would be horrifying?Its a fact that Senjougahara felt "something" for Kaiki back then when she was younger...Just try to empathise,you had to interact with your first love when you are in a relationship...She did not cheat or did something bad...Her feelings for Araragi is clear so it doesnt matter if she felt a little bit emotion for Kaiki And please keep in mind how Araragi feel for Hanekawa,i think its pretty similar.He felt something for her but it was not good to call it love... I didn't make it clear, did I? it's not the fact the she did carry feelings for him 2 years ago that is horrifying... It's the fact that she might have felt something or re-felt what she had for him when she was talking to him in Koimonogatari... I know that thinking like that about Senjougahara, and knowing Senjougahara's personality... it's... it's absurd, right? and it's impossible? but look at it, watch Koimonogatari, ignore everything before it (everything before it MIGHT have been a lie), just watch Koimonogatari like it's the first thing you DID watch... and then tell me she didn't show something for him... Compare Kaiki to Hanekawa? Well, Koyomi dones't hate Hanekawa... for someone who supposedly hates Kaiki so much, to show even for a little, some other feelings... what is this? did she really not hate him as much as we thought? maybe she still feels something? or is she really that small of a person? that weak? I liked Senjougahara because she was a beast, a monster, so strong, is this a different character? she certainly does look like it's not her character? did Nisio isin make a mistake here? could it be that I am missing something from the Novel? or was everything before just acting? No,you made yourself clear,but maybe i didnt make myself...I am saying that it would be weird Not feeling something... Senjougahara hates Kaiki,she clearly and genuinely hates him...But there was a time she didnt hate him...If you think some feelings like hate,love can completely disappear without a trace it means you never felt those...She once believed him,thought him as her prince that will save him,admired him,maybe loved him...And she cant completely erase those memories,she tried to erase them(giving those to crab) but Araragi saved her,he made it possible for Senjougahara to accept her memories,feelings as a whole(good ones and bad ones)...Not forgetting those feelings doesnt make her a weak human,in fact it makes her stronger,more human than you think... I thought first arc of Bakemonogatari made it clear what Nisio Isin thinks abut that stuff but seems like i was wrong...People are not beings that should and could forget their past...They must accept it instead of lying to themselves... When i mentioned Hanekawa please dont compare her with Kaiki...i meant AraragixHanekawa relationship and KaikixSenjougahara relationship (past time,not present) those were pretty similar and if you tell Senjougahara to forget those after everything she went through to be whole again,to get her "weight" back, she would kill you... Btw yes you are missing some stuff from novel but its irrelevant,im talking just based on my impression of anime series...I think that you guys just forgot all the development of Senjougahara throughout the whole series and didnt understand the main point of the anime,every arc has some deeper meaning that you should keep in mind... |
LoneWizzySep 7, 2014 12:59 AM
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