| This is not a thread directed to religion, this is a thread directed to the popular belief that religion slowed science. Well, as many of you may know, thousand of years ago the church would kill people that blaspheme against the church. As example, you couldn't say the Earth rotates around the Sun, that would be heresy and you would die. So a very popular argument is "Religion is always slowing science". But is that really true? After reading a bit, I just realized something. All the people that had the information and were actually not naive/blind were religious people that would spend all their life studying, reading and writing essays in a very distant place. They were VERY religious, actually, the church gave them all the knowledge, and they would create more knowledge for the church. Yes, sirs, thousand of years ago, the church was the center of all the knowledge, as many of you may recall. Based on that, I wonder if there was no church, people would still seek so much for knowledge thousand of years ago. I wonder if they would form groups and start writing books like they did. I wonder if they would spend all their lives reading and writing, because after all, the church did organize all that. Discuss? Recent impacts: Some people say the religion is impacting the science right now, because it is not allowing the science guys to develop things like human cloning and such. Well, actually, this is a lie, because the science is NOT stopping. The religion is indeed saying "You can't create humans, you don't have such power", but are the scientists listening in any way? No, they aren't, it is like saying you should throw the trash in the trash can. Oh, of course you should do that, but in the practice, most people won't do that. |
lupadimDec 2, 2013 3:50 PM
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| I'll make a quick post and get the fuck out of this thread before it spirals into hell Yes it did and does, people are raised with these beliefs and have their morals shaped around them, sometimes unjustly, when we see breakthroughs in science that conflict with a religious belief it makes it become stagnant for longer than it needs to be, like stem cell research which for all we know could have cured so many horrible diseases at this point. Also dark ages used religion as a crutch to pretty much prevent any movement not just in science alright im getting the fuck out of here |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| No, not really. |
JizzyHitler said: Did the science really stopped the research immediately because some people didn't wanted the project to happen? As I said, I think people are just pretending it is slowing the projects, can you give me a example that undoubtedly was slowed solely because of some religion protests? when we see breakthroughs in science that conflict with a religious belief it makes it become stagnant for longer than it needs to be, like stem cell research which for all we know could have cured so many horrible diseases at this point. JizzyHitler said: But compare the benefits (all the knowledge generated) with the bad parts (the knowledge contained), they generated way more knowledgeAlso dark ages used religion as a crutch to pretty much prevent any movement not just in science |
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| used to be that chemistry and alchemy were the same thing and practiced by the same people, same with astronomy and astrology. this guy is a really good example of an old scientist who as also into a bunch of crazy spiritual stuff like channeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_dee |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
OnlyEpix said: Of course, but my point is, the religion influenced scientists like him to devote all their life to generate knowledge.used to be that chemistry and alchemy were the same thing and practiced by the same people, same with astronomy and astrology. this guy is a really good example of an old scientist who as also into a bunch of crazy spiritual stuff like channeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_dee |
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BeyondNero said: Care to develop your arguments? Spams are not being tolerated by the moderation in my threads right now.No, i think that science is the one that is slowing religion. |
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BeyondNero said: I think you won't be able to research anything because it is pretty much against Ethic to limit religion in any way, because there is the respect for other beliefs that the government mainly must have, so I don't think anything would be slowing religion, but I wonder what is "slowing religion"? Religion always were... at its finest. Religion is not something that can upgrade and extend its knowledge, so I wonder what you are trying to say with "slowing".lupadim said: BeyondNero said: Care to develop your arguments? Spams are not being tolerated by the moderation in my threads right now.No, i think that science is the one that is slowing religion. Let me do a little research to more develop my above statement. |
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| I wanna have some examples from everyone that is saying religion is slowing stuff. I gave examples (the guys that spent all their life writing and reading), now it is your turn, guys at the opposition. |
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| I think it did, but whether we think it did or not doesn't matter, as we can't prove nor disprove it. |
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| Duh. Instead of asking, "hey, why does the sun rise and fall every day? What makes the tides go in and out? Why do seasons exist?" and actually trying to find answers, people were content with "Because the sun/ocean/weather god said so!" and called it a day. Sure, we eventually found out the real reasons behind these phenomenon, but you can't deny that their discovery was "slowed" down when these types of religions were widely accepted, practiced, enforced, and legitimately believed. |
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Red_Keys said: But let's say that 2000 years ago the people were wondering why the sun rise and fall every day. What you expected them to do? All they could do is observe the sun and make conclusions, and the church was stimulating that kind of behavior (observing things, writing about them)Duh. Instead of asking, "hey, why does the sun rise and fall every day? What makes the tides go in and out? Why do seasons exist?" and actually trying to find answers, people were content with "Because the sun/ocean/weather god said so!" and called it a day. Sure, we eventually found out the real reasons behind these phenomenon, but you can't deny that their discovery was "slowed" down when these types of religions were widely accepted, practiced, enforced, and legitimately believed. |
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| just gonna drop this |
| That is the popular belief, I am trying to discuss if that way of thinking is correct or not, and your video is not offering any argument other than a biased and baseless opinion (family guy, simpsons and other shows like that are obviously against religion, because bashing religion attracts more people to watch it) |
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lupadim said: That is the popular belief, I am trying to discuss if that way of thinking is correct or not, and your video is not offering any argument other than a biased and baseless opinion (family guy, simpsons and other shows like that are obviously against religion, because bashing religion attracts more people to watch it) True, just this topic reminded me of this clip and I thought I would like to share it. I believe that religion has slowed down science, a big part being Christianities refusal to accept the Heliocentric model, as the bible said that the Geocentric model was correct. But as what Levi would say (Recently finished SnK), the result will be a mystery if the Heliocentric model was accepted. SO possibly. Idk I just confused myself. |
| Yes, the Renaissance and other periods of technological innovation and scientific discovery were notable for their widespread atheism. |
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| It's not that long ago that certain scopes of science and certain theories where banned by the church and where punished with death sentence if you still researched them. So yes religion slowed science for sure and there is enough proof for that. |
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| In my case actually, I believe that science (most of it) comes from religion, especially my religion. Though I have to say that some sciences or to be exact "knowledges" such as "the evolution" bla bla, are not tolerated in my religion because they oppose it, not because my religion doesn't allow it, it sure does, yet when my religion states that 1+1=2 and these knowledges state 1+1=3, it becomes stupid to believe, therefore we ignore and reject such things. |
-ZeaosDec 2, 2013 1:38 PM
| Smiles and laughter are always good, but never forget your Poker Face.~ |
| No, and anyone who says otherwise has no conception of history. The great Universities were built, and funded, by the Church. |
| Let's go bowling. |
| There is no real way to proof either way or another, as nobody knows what would have happened if religion never existed. Although one thing is sure: Scientific breakthroughs still happened under the oppression of religion. The question is, would it be just as much? Unfortunately, there is no true way to tell. Looking at how much religion is trying to stop science now (it isn't working because the church has less than 1% of their influence compared to the Dark Ages), the obvious conclusion would be that religion indeed slows down science. Thankfully, there have always been (and always will be) free-minded people that dare to stand up to the norm and have the balls to ask questions. |
| All worship the great Tatsuya-nii-sama. Kronie said: Only those who are lost and empty seek guidance and fulfillment. |
| some ppl need to go back to school they didnt pay attention in science and history classes. @stopdropandbowl so they could controll what ppl where allowed to teach, that was the best way of censorship. One example is medicine, in the past the church prohibited any surgeries which opend the body. It was forbidden by death. This slowed the developement alot. If the church would still have that much power we would still live in medieval... |
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| You people sure do love to throw 'The Church' and religion into one big category huh. |
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Scud said: You people sure do love to throw 'The Church' and religion into one big category huh. Sure cause it is comparable with Gouvernement and Politics. Both goes hand in hand. Church uses the religion to achieve their goals. If you look at the history it was the church who commited the worst atrocity and used the Religion as pretense. It even happens now.... |
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| why did op put an article before religion : thanks for butchering the English language |
| yes, as you said cloning will help a lot for the spare parts of humans but the church disagree with that, the scientists are just cloning parts and not a whole human body anyway and also most religion teaches creationism rather than evolution to understand where life came from |
j0x said: and also most religion teaches creationism rather than evolution to understand where life came from Actually the catholic church preaches theistic evolution. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: j0x said: and also most religion teaches creationism rather than evolution to understand where life came from Actually the catholic church preaches theistic evolution. nice to know but there still a lot of creationist out there and by reading wikipedia that theistic evolution is really not a scientific theory |
| Yup, by a thousand years or so. |
j0x said: Shiratori99 said: j0x said: and also most religion teaches creationism rather than evolution to understand where life came from Actually the catholic church preaches theistic evolution. nice to know but there still a lot of creationist out there and by reading wikipedia that theistic evolution is really not a scientific theory It's just evolution + god. It's not a scientific theory, but it also contradicts no scientific theories. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: j0x said: Shiratori99 said: j0x said: and also most religion teaches creationism rather than evolution to understand where life came from Actually the catholic church preaches theistic evolution. nice to know but there still a lot of creationist out there and by reading wikipedia that theistic evolution is really not a scientific theory It's just evolution + god. It's not a scientific theory, but it also contradicts no scientific theories. still there is a question that where god came from? and science is about curiosity and discovery so it indirectly violates science imho |
moriandrio said: @stopdropandbowl so they could controll what ppl where allowed to teach, that was the best way of censorship. One example is medicine, in the past the church prohibited any surgeries which opend the body. It was forbidden by death. This slowed the developement alot. If the church would still have that much power we would still live in medieval... I think it was more because they wanted to learn more about God's world, but I guess assuming the worst is popular now so... The Church prohibited surgeries which opened the body from being performed by the clergy. And keep in mind that surgeries which open the body were incredibly dangerous and excruciatingly painful. In a time without any true conception of germs or contamination, and without any anesthesia, surgery was probably more likely to kill the patient than help them. |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: Finally, that is what I was trying to say all the time. While the church was banning one knowledge, the church was also creating ten other knowledge.No, and anyone who says otherwise has no conception of history. The great Universities were built, and funded, by the Church. StopDropAndBowl said: You have such a patience for answering those people that have no history source and are just spitting their biased logic.moriandrio said: @stopdropandbowl so they could controll what ppl where allowed to teach, that was the best way of censorship. One example is medicine, in the past the church prohibited any surgeries which opend the body. It was forbidden by death. This slowed the developement alot. If the church would still have that much power we would still live in medieval... I think it was more because they wanted to learn more about God's world, but I guess assuming the worst is popular now so... The Church prohibited surgeries which opened the body from being performed by the clergy. And keep in mind that surgeries which open the body were incredibly dangerous and excruciatingly painful. In a time without any true conception of germs or contamination, and without any anesthesia, surgery was probably more likely to kill the patient than help them. |
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| Religion is based on prohibition. Prohibitions prevent any activity. Christianity puts restrictions on important scientific methods of action and interaction. Christian hindered the natural sciences. To abstract science did not care, the Christian clerics were too dumb. |
| Titan of 20+ virgins club. |
Xasthur said: Yes, they are so dumb, those stupid philosophers that you must probably have studied many times already, argh, so dumb.Religion is based on prohibition. Prohibitions prevent any activity. Christianity puts restrictions on important scientific methods of action and interaction. Christian hindered the natural sciences. To abstract science did not care, the Christian clerics were too dumb. |
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lupadim said: Yes, they are so dumb, those stupid philosophers that you must probably have studied many times already, argh, so dumb. Which philosophers do you mean? |
| Titan of 20+ virgins club. |
| Meanwhile, in non-western religions... Oh wait, people won't get the hint. Meanwhile, in non-western religions, things seemed to be going hoity toity just fine. |
| Weren't the dark ages a thing? Also, if it were up to the religious masses of the Western world during the 11th century, there'd be no recorded data of SN 1006 (the brightest recorded supernova in history). So idk, kinda maybe who knows. |
Ambivalent-Axiom said: No.Weren't the dark ages a thing? |
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| I'm so glad to see MAL's continued insistence of over the use of generalizations in my absence. Especially in religious threads. (end sarcasm) |
| Let this be our little secret, no needs to know we're feeling HIGHER AND HIGHER AND HIGHER! |
| Not at all, well least at most times, they just in modern times attack "scientific" views and ideals that attack the tenates of the religion if not its very exsistance. Often in history there are noteable instances where be it Islam, Buddhism, Christianity of various sects, among others have actively used science to improve the human condition, foster the arts, and led to a number of technological innovations such as the printing press. In modern times Athiest love to use that as a talking point while ignoring key facts. Its like internet fights, people start shit with others on purpose, then when someone takes offense to their shit, they get all upset and act like that its the other side thats the bad guy. |
| I'll be talking mainly about western religion(s) because it's(they're) the one(s) that is(have) mainly conflicted with scientific research and other popular religions aren't nearly as bothersome. I wouldn't say religion slows down Science, rather, the church did at some point and does it today in some measure. The church/religion itself isn't and was never what fueled scientific advances, it was natural human curiosity. Even without religions or any kind of organized churches, many people (perhaps even more than what they originally were back then) would still have dedicated their lives to studying themselves and the world. I think that today, if the church is slowing down science, then it isn't because of the organization itself but because of the morals that were spread by it. If you say "are the scientists listening in any way? No, they aren't" - then you aren't looking at the full picture. Because of morals and norms being heavily influenced by the church in the past, our society today can't accept or consider all that is new as easily as it could were it not for the church. Even if the church does not possess the power to actively slow down scientific research anymore, it is because of the huge influence it once had that the restrictions placed on researchers by the law are very difficult to change even if there was no reason to not change it in the first place. Of course, not all ways of research should (or 'would' if you prefer) be freely allowed, but it doesn't change the fact that the reluctance to change comes from the church (atleast partially). |
AloxamaxDec 2, 2013 6:18 PM
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
| I'll just drop it here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/06/famous-persecuted-scientists/ You should note that famous case of Galileo who is tried by the inquisition and found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest lupadim said: StopDropAndBowl said: Finally, that is what I was trying to say all the time. While the church was banning one knowledge, the church was also creating ten other knowledge.No, and anyone who says otherwise has no conception of history. The great Universities were built, and funded, by the Church. That's the reason why science is blocked down by dogma, as it's only legal institution is under the control of religious bodies. It all works well until someone proves a contradicting fact to holy scripture. |
azzuReDec 2, 2013 8:03 PM
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| I'm going to say that yeah, it did. I don't think we should let something as debatable (that's probably not the best word to use here but I can't think of a word that means something that may or may not be true) as religion keep us from learning and discovering more. That's just my opinion though and I'm basing it off my own limited knowledge so I'm sorry if it sounds stupid >< |
| Funnily enough, this is a nuanced issue, and it's a joke to think there's one overarching answer to a question that spans across all human development. NickyCharisma said: Oh look, a grounded person! A most rare and detestable species.I'm so glad to see MAL's continued insistence of over the use of generalizations in my absence. Especially in religious threads. (end sarcasm) |
| yes most christians will most likely say no |
| my avatar is the bus driver from Rosario + Vampire |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell_controversy Is stem cell part of technological advancement? Yet it's banned in multiple countries. Why? Because it's humans playing God i.e. religion. Did religion sometime spur technology forward? Sure. But overall it hindered it. This pretty much sums it up. azzuRe said: It all works well until someone proves a contradicting fact to holy scripture. |
| Scientists being burned to death certainly did not have a good effect on the evolution of science. |
| If you generalize, you're wrong. |
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