If Fate/Hollow Ataraxia didn't exist, would you still like the F/SN servants better than the F/Z ones?(spoilers)
| . |
emobuttercupJan 22, 2015 7:44 PM
| I'd go with emobubbles, but someone else already had it, damn bastard. |
| I enjoyed the servant cast of Fate Stay Night a lot more than those of Zero and I didn't read Ataraxia. I'm not sure about other folks though. |
| “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth. - Shinichi Kudo” - Gosho Aoyama The Ayako Mitsuzuri Fan Club Taiga Fuji-nee Club Prince Kashima Club |
| Hollow Ataraxia is as great as it is because people already liked the servants from before. The reason it's so successful is because it just gives more of characters already liked. |
 |
| Aside from Gil IMO, F/Z servants aren't really likable. And yes that includes the two popular hypocrites. So F/SN servants are a huge step up. Also, the title should have a spoiler warning. |
| Cu and Sasaki shit on Derpmud. And Rin's Archer >>>>> all That's all I want to say. |
| zero's servants are pretty "basic" for the most part |
| I've never read Ataraxia, but the servants of F/SN were always better to me than their F/Z counterparts. Heck, if you think about it, both Saber and Gil appeared in F/SN first (due to being the source material). |
 |
VarunaBles said: I've never read Ataraxia, but the servants of F/SN were always better to me than their F/Z counterparts. Heck, if you think about it, both Saber and Gil appeared in F/SN first (due to being the source material). They're a little different from their other adaptation counterparts though. They're even separated in the popularity polls as: Saber - Zero Saber - Gilgamesh - Zero Gilgamesh. |
astroprogs said: They're a little different from their other adaptation counterparts though. They're even separated in the popularity polls as: Saber - Zero Saber - Gilgamesh - Zero Gilgamesh. Ikr? Probably because they were done by different writers. *shrugs* |
|
| In Gil's case, he just went pseudo-mad. |
|
VarunaBles said: astroprogs said: They're a little different from their other adaptation counterparts though. They're even separated in the popularity polls as: Saber - Zero Saber - Gilgamesh - Zero Gilgamesh. Ikr? Probably because they were done by different writers. *shrugs* Yup, Urobuchi's interpretations of the characters made them slightly different from their original version. Those interpretations were completely fine to me BTW, even though the alterations he made caused some people a lot of confusion in UBW. |
astroprogs said: VarunaBles said: Ikr? Probably because they were done by different writers. *shrugs* Yup, Urobuchi's interpretations of the characters made them slightly different from their original version. Those interpretations were completely fine to me BTW, even though the alterations he made caused some people a lot of confusion in UBW. FSN "destroyed" Saber's character, they say. |
VarunaBles said: In Gil's case, he just went pseudo-mad. I honestly believe the alterations were true to Gil's and Saber's character, despite the opposite belief in the sub-forum. |
chickenonthepan said: FSN "destroyed" Saber's character, they say. Less eating. More CHIVALERY™ing. Well, what can you expect from a porn writer, really. |
| What's wrong with the F/Z Servants? I enjoyed all of them. F/Z Rider was especially awesome. I liked F/Z Gil better than F/SN Blondie. F/Z Berserker's "mad dog" antics were great. F/Z Caster was dastardly, in a good way. I preferred F/SN Saber to F/Z Saber, but Zero Saber was sweet too. While F/SN Lancer is superior to F/Z Lancer, I thought the latter was just fine. F/SN Assassin is far better than F/Z Assassin, though considering the latter's role, that's obvious. ALSO: Is Ataraxia any good? I never actually played it. |
| Her chivalry was taken up to eleven for Gen so he can take pot shots at idealism at least that's how I saw it. |
| “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth. - Shinichi Kudo” - Gosho Aoyama The Ayako Mitsuzuri Fan Club Taiga Fuji-nee Club Prince Kashima Club |
-kV- said: ALSO: Is Ataraxia any good? I never actually played it. http://i.imgur.com/HS2RaSE.jpg It's starts off rare as hell, and then... continues.. being rare as hell.. I'm sure I was going somewhere with this. Lancer is awsome. |
 |
-kV- said: What's wrong with the F/Z Servants? I enjoyed all of them. Nothing wrong. I just find Archer superior to them all. |
Zombiepie said: Her chivalry was taken up to eleven for Gen so he can take pot shots at idealism at least that's how I saw it. Well, there's a lot about Saber that we didn't know from F/SN. Her shift in character can be explained by how the whole 4th HGW experience went for her and the decisions she made and their consequences. Add to that her final thoughts in F/Z and you'll find that the altered aspects in her character CAN make sense. I think it can all fit in the big picture. |
astroprogs said: Zombiepie said: Her chivalry was taken up to eleven for Gen so he can take pot shots at idealism at least that's how I saw it. Well, there's a lot about Saber that we didn't know from F/SN. Her shift in character can be explained by how the whole 4th HGW experience went for her and the decisions she made and their consequences. Add to that her final thoughts in F/Z and you'll find that the altered aspects in her character CAN make sense. I think it can all fit in the big picture. I agree with this, although she doesn't really have the right to act that way considering her own actions in the past. Even though, I think Zero added a lot more thought behind the motivations of Saber and why she wanted the Grail as much as she did. I can see people getting confused as to why she seems different in FSN, in Zero she was 100% full Chivalry Knight in every scene, simply becasue they were trying to develop this theme and make the whole Kiri/Saber relationship more impactful. |
|
astroprogs said: Zombiepie said: Her chivalry was taken up to eleven for Gen so he can take pot shots at idealism at least that's how I saw it. Well, there's a lot about Saber that we didn't know from F/SN. Her shift in character can be explained by how the whole 4th HGW experience went for her and the decisions she made and their consequences. Add to that her final thoughts in F/Z and you'll find that the altered aspects in her character CAN make sense. I think it can all fit in the big picture. I have a hard time with that considering this is a person who was willing to kill her own emotions as well as sacrifice entire villages of innocent people in order to keep her kingdom intact(Sacrifice a few to save many). She may have been a generally good person but she could also be pragmatic and at times could be downright ruthless. She lived this life till her end at the last battle with those beliefs so its hard for me to believe that that one bad round in that HGW during Zero was enough to change her. |
| “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth. - Shinichi Kudo” - Gosho Aoyama The Ayako Mitsuzuri Fan Club Taiga Fuji-nee Club Prince Kashima Club |
| Not factoring in F/HA, this is how I rank the servants in order of my preferences. F/SN Saber > F/Z Gilgamesh >= F/SN Archer >= F/Z Rider >= F/Z Saber >> F/SN Rider = F/SN Lancer >> F/Z Caster > F/SN Gilgamesh >= F/SN Assassin (Kojiro) > F/SN Caster > F/SN Assassin (Hassan) > F/Z Lancer > F/SN Berserker > F/Z Berserker >> F/Z Assassin So overall for me, the F/SN servants have the edge. With F/HA however, my order becomes: F/SN Saber > F/Z Gilgamesh >= F/SN Archer >= F/SN Rider >= F/Z Rider >= F/Z Saber >= F/SN Lancer > F/SN Caster >> F/SN Assassin (Kojiro) > F/Z Caster > F/SN Gilgamesh > F/SN Assassin (Hassan) > F/Z Lancer > F/SN Berserker > F/Z Berserker >> F/Z Assassin |
ZeroDragonJan 22, 2015 9:22 PM
   |
ZeroDragon said: Not factoring in F/HA, this is how I rank the servants in order of my preferences. F/SN Saber > F/Z Gilgamesh >= F/SN Archer >= F/Z Rider >= F/Z Saber >> F/SN Rider = F/SN Lancer >> F/Z Caster > F/SN Gilgamesh >= F/SN Assassin (Kojiro) > F/SN Caster > F/SN Assassin (Hassan) > F/Z Lancer > F/SN Berserker > F/Z Berserker >> F/Z Assassin So overall for me, the F/SN servants have the edge. With F/HA however, my order becomes: F/SN Saber > F/Z Gilgamesh >= F/SN Archer >= F/SN Rider >= F/Z Rider >= F/Z Saber >= F/SN Lancer > F/SN Caster >> F/SN Assassin (Kojiro) > F/Z Caster > F/SN Gilgamesh > F/SN Assassin (Hassan) > F/Z Lancer > F/SN Berserker > F/Z Berserker >> F/Z Assassin F/Z Assassin Status ☑ Rekt ☐ Not Rekt |
|
WrongPriest said: I agree with this, although she doesn't really have the right to act that way considering her own actions in the past. Even though, I think Zero added a lot more thought behind the motivations of Saber and why she wanted the Grail as much as she did. I can see people getting confused as to why she seems different in FSN, in Zero she was 100% full Chivalry Knight in every scene, simply becasue they were trying to develop this theme and make the whole Kiri/Saber relationship more impactful. I'd blame that on the ensemble story structure and its individual character screen time limitations more than I'd blame Urobuchi's usual writing quirks. Zombiepie said: I have a hard time with that considering this is a person who was willing to kill her own emotions as well as sacrifice entire villages of innocent people in order to keep her kingdom intact(Sacrifice a few to save many). She may have been a generally good person but she could also be pragmatic and at times could be downright ruthless. She lived this life till her end at the last battle with those beliefs so its hard for me to believe that that one bad round in that HGW during Zero was enough to change her. She was the righteous king that her knights practically worshiped her. Nobody has ever questioned her ideals or decisions, let alone challenge them. Now you have: 1)2 kings who continuously bash her ideals, and even make fun of her reasons to obtain the grail. 2)A master that she thought she understood (they were extremely similar after all) completely shits on her, and then betrays her be denying her the grail. 3)A loyal subordinate who went completely mad by the actions and the decisions she made and kept on repeating even after her summoning in the HGW. All of that made it clear to her that she had it coming, and that all the actions she took in her life "I shouldn't have been king", AND in the HGW "How i could understand Kiritsugu's heart when i couldn't even understand the hearts of my people?" were completely and utterly wrong. And suddenly she was given a new chance and she was summoned again in the next HGW. How do you think she would behave? |
| But she already thought of herself as a shithouse king before Zero, that's why she contracted with the Grail. What does she learn in Zero then? That she was actually a super shithouse king? I guess it does help to show her why there was all this Civil war shit going on in her backyard.. in her mind anyway. |
WrongPriestJan 22, 2015 9:57 PM
|
WrongPriest said: But she already thought of herself as a shithouse king before Zero, that's why she contracted the with the Grail. What does she learn in Zero then? That she was actually a super shithouse king? She blamed her poor tactics and war decisions for Britain's destruction, not her actual worth as a king. That's why her wish changed from Britain's victory (with herself as the king) to the redo of the selection of the king. |
astroprogsJan 22, 2015 10:00 PM
WrongPriest said: But she already thought of herself as a shithouse king before Zero, that's why she contracted with the Grail. What does she learn in Zero then? That she was actually a super shithouse king? I guess it does help to show her why there was all this Civil war shit going on in her backyard.. in her mind anyway. From the anime at least, I don't think at the start she believed she was a bad king per say. At the Grail Dialogue, she still had conviction in her ideals on kingship. It's just by the end of Zero, she regrets everything and wants to remove herself altogether. Which sets up nicely for That's why I have been hoping for more non-moe Saber scenes in the BDs, and in the second season to resolve her arc. |
-kV- said: From the anime at least, I don't think at the start she believed she was a bad king per say. At the Grail Dialogue, she still had conviction in her ideals on kingship. It's just by the end of Zero, she regrets everything and wants to remove herself altogether Correct, you can see her in the banquet of kings preach how a king should be, and how she is more worthy to be a king than the other two (which she still are btw). That's why her realization in the end of F/Z was so soul crushing for her. -kV- said: That's why I have been hoping for more non-moe Saber scenes in the BDs, and in the second season to resolve her arc. Saber's behavior in UBW so far is what she chose to be. Making her act like she did in F/Z would actually be a regression. |
| Yes. FHA just made me like FSN servants EVEN MORE. Otherwise FSN servants(unlike Zero ones) had distinct and interesting personalities and backstories and lots of badassery. Hell, I even liked Saber in FSN, unlike Zero's CHIVALRY!Machine(gods did urobuchi fuck up there). Gods if she acted as one-note as in Zero I would have hated her more than Sakura. Thankfully FSN Saber is far more goofy and a stubborn flawed fuck-up, than Zero's nonsense. I am happy Ufo is not altering her behavior in UBW to "fit" Zero. When compared to FSN the only servant to like in Zero was Gilgamesh...and he is kind of...an FSN character xD |
 |
CookingPriest said: Hell, I even liked Saber in FSN, unlike Zero's CHIVALRY!Machine(gods did urobuchi fuck up there). Gods if she acted as one-note as in Zero I would have hated her more than Sakura. Thankfully FSN Saber is far more goofy and a stubborn flawed fuck-up, than Zero's nonsense. I am happy Ufo is not altering her behavior in UBW to "fit" Zero. Uro did Saber a lot of justice. I don't know what you're talking about. |
-kV- said: CookingPriest said: Hell, I even liked Saber in FSN, unlike Zero's CHIVALRY!Machine(gods did urobuchi fuck up there). Gods if she acted as one-note as in Zero I would have hated her more than Sakura. Thankfully FSN Saber is far more goofy and a stubborn flawed fuck-up, than Zero's nonsense. I am happy Ufo is not altering her behavior in UBW to "fit" Zero. Uro did Saber a lot of justice. I don't know what you're talking about. If by "did a lot of justice" you mean "strip her character down to a chivalrous knight stereotype so he has something for his MATURE characters to shout at and ridicule" then yeah. Otherwise no. If it was CANON Saber there half the shit she raged at there would not even rustle her jimmies. |
|
| Saber's arc resolution in UBW is perfect as it is, they better not touch it. Well I guess it was perfect when we had fate behind it... |
|
CookingPriest said: -kV- said: Uro did Saber a lot of justice. I don't know what you're talking about. If by "did a lot of justice" you mean "strip her character down to a chivalrous knight stereotype so he has something for his MATURE characters to shout at and ridicule" then yeah. Otherwise no. If it was CANON Saber there half the shit she raged at there would not even rustle her jimmies. That was the whole point. In brief, she was supposed to be this highly chivalrous, holy king who acted as a martyr knight for her people. Then throughout Zero that gets challenged and broken down until she ends up the way that she does at the end of F/Z and start of F/SN. Honestly, I thought the whole arc from Zero, then going into the VN, especially in UBW, was well-done. |
| Nasu's Servants >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uro's Servants Simple fact. He literally forgot history when he was writing Iskander. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
Zombiepie said: Same here.I enjoyed the servant cast of Fate Stay Night a lot more than those of Zero and I didn't read Ataraxia. -kV- said: Nothing is wrong with them (minus a few nitpicks). Saying F/SN's Servants are better doesn't mean F/Z's Servants are bad.What's wrong with the F/Z Servants? I enjoyed all of them. |
 |
-kV- said: CookingPriest said: If by "did a lot of justice" you mean "strip her character down to a chivalrous knight stereotype so he has something for his MATURE characters to shout at and ridicule" then yeah. Otherwise no. If it was CANON Saber there half the shit she raged at there would not even rustle her jimmies. That was the whole point. In brief, she was supposed to be this highly chivalrous, holy king who acted as a martyr knight for her people. Then throughout Zero that gets challenged and broken down until she ends up the way that she does at the end of F/Z and start of F/SN. Honestly, I thought the whole arc from Zero, then going into the VN, especially in UBW, was well-done. Erm...Except that she was NOT that? She was highly EFFICIENT king and by that means she was basically Kiritsugu, sacrificing thousands for the most perfect outcomes for the majority of surviving ones. Barely anything of her had to do with Chivalry. There's pretty much nothing barring metting FZ Zerker that could challenge her in FZ. Kerry? she did far worse. Rider? Canon Saber would have a retort just like she did in fate to Gil. And even FZ Zerker would not do anything that her last fight with Mordred did not do to her already. TL;DR her character in Zero makes no sense. It MIGHT have fit Saber at the START of her reign, but not anything after she accepted the role of the King. |
|
| Yep. Without HA: F/SN Archer>F/SN Saber>F/SN Lancer>F/Z Archer/Gil>F/SN Fake Assassin>F/SN Caster>F/SN Berserker>F/SN Rider>F/Z Berserker>F/SN True Assassin>F/Z Saber>F/Z Rider=F/SN Gil>F/Z Lancer>F/Z Assassin With HA: F/SN Archer>F/Sn Saber>F/SN Lancer>F/SN Rider>F/SN Caster>F/SN Gil>/=F/Z Archer/Gil>F/SN Assassin>F/SN Berserker>F/Z Berserker>F/SN True Assassin>F/Z Saber>F/Z Rider>F/Z Lancer>F/Z Assassin Gotta feel bad for the Hassan's, but what do. |
InsertanamehereJan 23, 2015 9:08 AM
CookingPriest said: I like how anything you say F/Z did wrong was Gen's fault, but everything right is only because of Nasu.Yes. FHA just made me like FSN servants EVEN MORE. Otherwise FSN servants(unlike Zero ones) had distinct and interesting personalities and backstories and lots of badassery. Hell, I even liked Saber in FSN, unlike Zero's CHIVALRY!Machine(gods did urobuchi fuck up there). Gods if she acted as one-note as in Zero I would have hated her more than Sakura. Thankfully FSN Saber is far more goofy and a stubborn flawed fuck-up, than Zero's nonsense. I am happy Ufo is not altering her behavior in UBW to "fit" Zero. When compared to FSN the only servant to like in Zero was Gilgamesh...and he is kind of...an FSN character xD |
 |
ReaperCreeper said: Shhh.. Let more people bite before exposing stuff.CookingPriest said: I like how anything you say F/Z did wrong was Gen's fault, but everything right is only because of Nasu.Yes. FHA just made me like FSN servants EVEN MORE. Otherwise FSN servants(unlike Zero ones) had distinct and interesting personalities and backstories and lots of badassery. Hell, I even liked Saber in FSN, unlike Zero's CHIVALRY!Machine(gods did urobuchi fuck up there). Gods if she acted as one-note as in Zero I would have hated her more than Sakura. Thankfully FSN Saber is far more goofy and a stubborn flawed fuck-up, than Zero's nonsense. I am happy Ufo is not altering her behavior in UBW to "fit" Zero. When compared to FSN the only servant to like in Zero was Gilgamesh...and he is kind of...an FSN character xD |
|
| Because that is TRUTH? the lore bits that nasu oversaw are great. seeing great fire, grail, etc was great. When it comes to things Butcher would actually have to write himself, Iskandar is INFURIATINGly whitewashed and Saber as well as most characters are one dimensional. Bassically what is great is what is based on what Nasu already wrote in FHA and FSN(Iris, Kerry, Kirei, etc) and what is bad is what Butcher "filled in" (Seiba the Chivalry Exposition Device) |
|
| Yes. I've read Hollow Ataraxia after watching Fate Zero anyway, so my opinion on F/SN servants was formed solely on F/SN. F/Z Archer was great. Other servants are mostly bland, except for F/Z Rider for his notable charisma. On the other hand, all F/SN servants (yeah, including that on who appears in only one route) are simply more lifelike, more intriguing and deeper; you can simply sense that there's something below their outward appearance. Yeah, even F/SN Berserker for that one scene in Fate and his Crowning Moment of Awesome coming in the 2nd cour of UBW. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
| Yes I havent even read FHA yet. And again with the Gen vs Nasu bullshit I see.I should start looking for old posts about how 90% of the FZ was by Nasu and how Fai never disagreed with that. |
| The only Servant from Zero (only) that was memorable in the slightest was Rider (he was aweome though), everyone else just pales in comparison to their F/SN counterparts Ataraxia didn't really change my opinion of F/SN's chars very much though tbh |
  |
CookingPriest said: -kV- said: That was the whole point. In brief, she was supposed to be this highly chivalrous, holy king who acted as a martyr knight for her people. Then throughout Zero that gets challenged and broken down until she ends up the way that she does at the end of F/Z and start of F/SN. Honestly, I thought the whole arc from Zero, then going into the VN, especially in UBW, was well-done. Erm...Except that she was NOT that? She was highly EFFICIENT king and by that means she was basically Kiritsugu, sacrificing thousands for the most perfect outcomes for the majority of surviving ones. Barely anything of her had to do with Chivalry. There's pretty much nothing barring metting FZ Zerker that could challenge her in FZ. Kerry? she did far worse. Rider? Canon Saber would have a retort just like she did in fate to Gil. And even FZ Zerker would not do anything that her last fight with Mordred did not do to her already. TL;DR her character in Zero makes no sense. It MIGHT have fit Saber at the START of her reign, but not anything after she accepted the role of the King. Her chivalrous nature went perfectly along with the fact that she was supposed to be this untouchable holy king who couldn't do any wrong, and was a martyr for her country. She could justify all the battles she won, and people she killed, or led to be killed, by that idea of honor and glory in death. That's why Kiritsugu went on that tirade, because he couldn't stand her. She was the head of . I really enjoyed the personality shifts considering what she goes through in the 4th HGW. Zero Saber felt like it was Her character affected (and by some was affected by) all the Servants (save for Assassin) and Iri and Kerry. Considering I went from F/Z to the VN, I found the tragedy of her character in the 4th HGW and then the resolution of her arc in the 5th HGW to be well done. Maybe it wasn't what you wanted, but I think you're highly underrating Uro's job. |
HentaiPriest said: Yes I havent even read FHA yet. And you call yourself a priest? Such heresy. |
|
| i haven't read F/HA yet (well i've read the first day but that doesn't really count) and i like the servants so yes. |
 |
ZeroDragon said: The translation wasnt even completed when I became one.HentaiPriest said: Yes I havent even read FHA yet. And you call yourself a priest? Such heresy. |
HentaiPriest said: ZeroDragon said: The translation wasnt even completed when I became one.And you call yourself a priest? Such heresy. I thought someone such as yourself would have at least started it by now since the translation was completed XD |
|
-kV- said: Her chivalrous nature went perfectly along with the fact that she was supposed to be this untouchable holy king who couldn't do any wrong, and was a martyr for her country. She could justify all the battles she won, and people she killed, or led to be killed, by that idea of honor and glory in death. That's why Kiritsugu went on that tirade, because he couldn't stand her. She was the head of . I really enjoyed the personality shifts considering what she goes through in the 4th HGW. THERE'S NO FUCKING PERSONALITY SHIFT. She was "untouchable" because she chose to be. SHE DID NOT JUSTIFY IT BY HONOR. It was nothing more than an acceptable loss for her. A number. She did not fight for "honor" - she simply chose most efficient measures to unite her country, no matter how brutal it might be or how she would need to sacrifice innocents. She was NOT a "martyr" Her behavior in FSN is EXACT SAME as in her real life. Just with slip ups of goofy goofball girl that she had to hide. Zero Saber felt like it was Her character affected (and by some was affected by) all the Servants (save for Assassin) and Iri and Kerry. Considering I went from F/Z to the VN, I found the tragedy of her character in the 4th HGW and then the resolution of her arc in the 5th HGW to be well done. Yeah, no. There was absolutely NOTHING in fourth war barring Zerker that could affect her. She did hold grudges for but otherwise she is MASSIVELY out of character in Zero. |
|
More topics from this board
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Oct 25, 2014 |
1045 |
by DGottem
»»
Sep 9, 2:34 AM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Oct 11, 2014 |
1266 |
by bananachips
»»
Sep 3, 8:30 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 8 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Hyack - Nov 29, 2014 |
767 |
by awasalahif
»»
Aug 29, 11:02 PM |
|
» Fate Watch Guide I Made For My WebsiteKaptainKoolaid - Aug 22 |
4 |
by AustinJamB
»»
Aug 23, 11:58 AM |
|
» Finding ost ep9O_OSeeKing - Aug 9 |
1 |
by TrueLataDeAtun
»»
Aug 9, 7:55 AM |