Pointing out that we don't need it is not in and of itself an argument, of course. I think every living creature has the right to take place, so to speak. It's certainly true, as you say, that the best for everyone around would be if we died. From my perspective, that's simply too much to ask. In fact, IMO, the first concern for any creature must be themselves. That being said, ceasing to kill animals for solely gustatory purposes is not too much to aspire to. However, it would have been to much to ask if we needed to eat animals (hence "we don't need it"). |
Terkhev said: And what's up with pain? We only care about pain as an argument because we can feel it ourselves. Well, of course. If you approach this philosophically you'll see that it makes sense. The only thing you know with certainty is that you experience and that you think (ancient Egyptians would've said you experience thinking, so maybe it's debatable). Whether anything around you exist, whether others possess consciousness - these are all unknowns, strictly speaking. We are forced to assume a pragmatic stance in the matter and think that others do also have experiences. From this we can form empathy. We have no reason to assume that plants are conscious, because the idea of consciousness in others stems from likeness to ourselves. I'm not saying we shouldn't contemplate the idea. In fact, I think it's a perfectly valid philosophical and biological inquiry. Edit: in case the "likeness to ourselves" point isn't clear enough, let me illustrate it a bit. Let's assume that some organism speaks to use and it has mastered English. It speaks of an experience that it thinks is "xryginegg" and we ask "well, what the heck does that mean?" "It can't be translated nor compared to anything you know" We ask: "Well, is it important?" To which it can not even give an answer. However should we view completely unknown qualia even IF they are quantified? |
AburadakoApr 13, 2017 12:23 AM
swirlydragon said: Cause they keep on calling us murderers and say stuff like "plants do not feel pain" when in reality they do (it is scientifically proven). It pisses me off when they say that >.< im mainly vegetarian minus the fact that i will eat fish however. i do not judge people on what they eat. unless your eating another human... |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
hazerddex said: swirlydragon said: Cause they keep on calling us murderers and say stuff like "plants do not feel pain" when in reality they do (it is scientifically proven). It pisses me off when they say that >.< im mainly vegetarian minus the fact that i will eat fish however. i do not judge people on what they eat. unless your eating another human... lol I am not a cannibal, bruh Btw why don't you eat chicken or mutton? Do you not like it? |
| @AxBattler Oh i see. Also i meant nitrogen not nitrous. My bad. I heard nitrogen asphyxiation is most painless but i forgot where i heard that and if it wass about animals or human execution. Also that practice doesnt make sense to me since you need males and females both to have more hens born. o.o Also if they used clones the sex could always be female if they wanted. @Kidemonas You just repeated the same mistake though. It's not just method of killing but also the reason. You also werent directing things at me directly originally but anyone not a vegan. I can't speak for everyone. I'm against hunting for pure sport, I'm against abuse or mistreatment or mishandling of animals, I'm against painful methods of death for them, I'm against killing some animals more or less than others based on various factors. Such factors include how intelligent they are or how much they likely can feel emotions or understand pain beyond involuntary responces, how numerous they are, how they relate to the ecosystem, their relations with other animals and humans, and their own individual actions. What is known is that certain nutrients can not be obtained in high enough mounts in plant based sources. To refine it down to supplements leads to a lot of waste and takes energy and thus pollutants to do so which harms the environment which harms animals and people. It's extremely difficult to figure out what diet has the least negative impact or most positive outcome for humans, other animals, and the planet. I don't think it's necessary for it to be arguing arguing that they don't experience pain, it's that if they do they dont experience it the same as a mammal or reptile would. Not all animals have a central nervous system. Things like mussels and clams don have one. Beans arent a plant they are a biproduct of a plant. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
swirlydragon said: hazerddex said: im mainly vegetarian minus the fact that i will eat fish however. i do not judge people on what they eat. unless your eating another human... lol I am not a cannibal, bruh Btw why don't you eat chicken or mutton? Do you not like it? the smell makes me sick. and iv seen to many documentary films durring my high school life of what goes into the animals |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
hazerddex said: swirlydragon said: lol I am not a cannibal, bruh Btw why don't you eat chicken or mutton? Do you not like it? the smell makes me sick. and iv seen to many documentary films durring my high school life of what goes into the animals Well what can I say? I don't hate animals or anything (I love my guinea pigs) but I just accept that humans are animals too. |
I think this is a pretty good lecture, its lenghty i admit but worth it. |
| @traed I see no mistake. We've discussed reasons but I'm not sure what reasons you think are ok. I said that I wanted to get to whether you find it acceptable to do what you please with an animal as long as you consider the method of killing humane in reference to an earlier post. I understand that the answer to this is "no". Indeed, I was even talking about "most non-vegans in the thread" (not all) and I don't remember if you had posted anything that I had in mind when writing it. Quite possibly you weren't even among the ones I had in mind. I find what you say about taking several factors into consideration quite relatable. I think it's extra bad when someone kills an animal belonging to a critically endangered species for example. Yet, I can't seem to understand how (in the mind of the average meat-eater) baby chicks are worth so little that massacring them in the billions is as irrelevant as they are numerous. One would think that by such standards, human lives are worth very little. I don't know about waste and pollutants from supplements. Where can I read about this? I only know of 1 vitamin that you can't obtain through plant sources, and that is B12 which is produced by bacteria in the gut (humans often don't produce enough). Supplements are readily available thanks to lab-grown bacteria. I don't see why that 1 thing would be an issue. This is on par with eating non-sourdough bread (lab-grown yeast) or eating things with citric acid (lab-grown bacteria, not citrus fruits), except that a vitamin supplement is much smaller in volume. "It's extremely difficult to figure out what diet has the least negative impact or most positive outcome for humans, other animals, and the planet." Certainly. I know that the average Western diet is not even close though. |
I'll never become a vegan, no matter what you say. I'll keep on eating animals. Sorry! |
swirlydragon said: I'll never become a vegan, no matter what you say. I'll keep on eating animals. Sorry! That's ok i'm not here to force you. Tho that's what almost every vegan said before they went vegan, myself included. |
Effulgence said: swirlydragon said: I'll never become a vegan, no matter what you say. I'll keep on eating animals. Sorry! That's ok i'm not here to force you. Tho that's what almost every vegan said before they went vegan, myself included. Me too. I even called myself a militant meat eater at some point in my teens. |
| I'm fine with people eating whatever the hell they want, but when some folks start propagating their diet on a moral basis is where I draw the line. You can have whatever sort of diet you want, but don't go crawling for the moral high ground and tell others they're cruel for not having the same diet.Quarreling over something so bagatelle is just a touch too silly. |
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| @Effulgence @Kidemonas Well to be exact, I don't eat meat everyday. Unlike Americans, we eat meat rarely. Like once or twice in a month. Usually we eat rice and vegetables |
| @swirlydragon That's how it was for me a bunch of years ago. Then I stopped eating meat but used ghee and ate yoghurt and cheese and the occasional scrambled eggs. I had some plans to start making yoghurt cheese from organic goat milk. Then I read about the life of farm animals and... well, I'm not gonna start preaching. ^^ Well, rice and vegetables is good. That (and beans) is what I usually eat today. |
swirlydragon said: Cause they keep on calling us murderers and say stuff like "plants do not feel pain" when in reality they do (it is scientifically proven). It pisses me off when they say that >.<  I ll just leave this here .. Thought you would like it .. |
| Isn't it a good thing to give the gift of pain to the things you eat? |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Plants are organism too so eating them=killing in fact, swallowing literally everything including bacteria is killing. Unless you're able to do photosynthesis or chemosynthesis, which is nigh-impossible, it's where I can deem you for not killing anything. there's nothing wrong with killing to live though. |
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| I am a vegan by choice and not by morals. I have tasted meat but felt veggies are better in taste and consistency compared to meat. As far as humans are concerned, unless they invent some kind of easily accessible food that is made purely from chemicals not extracted from any living being, they have to kill to eat, regardless of whether they are plants or animals. Hell, u might even eat chemical pills for nutrition and hunger but that wont stop you from murdering some bacteria on the way. So the whole point of vegans calling meat eaters as murderers is hypocritical. That being said, there is nothing superior in being a vegan or meat eater either way. In either case (with cattle or crops), ppl purposefully raise them just to be human food and kill them to sell/eat so its just about as bad as slavery, if you take the side of the food i mean. |
| Best ending line in anime history = "My name is Saiki Kusuo. I am a psychic." |
swirlydragon said: lol I am not a cannibal, bruh Btw why don't you eat chicken or mutton? Do you not like it? the smell makes me sick. and iv seen to many documentary films durring my high school life of what goes into the animals[/quote] Well what can I say? I don't hate animals or anything (I love my guinea pigs) but I just accept that humans are animals too. [/quote]arent u from delhi? are you sure they're guinea pigs and not just large rats? are you just mad abt the beef ban? lol |
KuroudoAkabane said: swirlydragon said: lol I am not a cannibal, bruh Btw why don't you eat chicken or mutton? Do you not like it? the smell makes me sick. and iv seen to many documentary films durring my high school life of what goes into the animals Well what can I say? I don't hate animals or anything (I love my guinea pigs) but I just accept that humans are animals too. [/quote]arent u from delhi? are you sure they're guinea pigs and not just large rats? are you just mad abt the beef ban? lol[/quote] Wtf? When did I say anything about beef? lol As for guinea pigs, that joke wasn't even funny dude |
imeli said: LabelFlash said: Vegods vs low intelligence meat-eaters. Vegans who criticize those who eat animal meat are of low intelligence. Humans have been eating other animals since the dawn of our existence. There is no causation that links animal meat to negative health, even if it has saturated fats in it. well not entirely true. to much red meat consumption increase risk of heart disease. (hence why i stick to fish) |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
| A more accurate title for this thread is: "Plants release gases. Let's bash vegans." Can anyone who agrees with OP explain how plants can experience pain? "I think so" or "this sensational article/video said so" won't cut it. Use plant anatomy and physiology to support your position. It should be simple if, as OP claimed, "scientists have already confirmed that plants feel pain". I’ll accept citations from peer-reviewed articles. Otherwise, this is just a case of using metaphors to create controversy=views. |
LabelFlash said: Cirno9 said: Humans are at the top of the food chain, so why would you give up that position? Animals always killed animals, they have to do that in order to surive so I don't see any point in not eating meat. You could argue about how the animals are being killed, but that's another story. I could understand them a bit if they would argue with some logic and common sense, but to renounce on something completely is not the way to go. We continue to eat animals (after a certain age) for one reason, flavoring. There is no logical reason in torturing and then eating animals in the modern world. Just because we're "on the top of the food chain" doesn't give us the right to ruin the (usually short, and painful) lives of animals below us. As for the opening post, so silly. Plants are just working communally to evolve by sending out signals to other plants in the same area. Many Animals, on the other hand, have the brain power to notice that they are in a state of discomfort. If we take the vegan approach we see animals being given sentience, they live in horrible conditions, and then they are killed usually in a horrific fashion. If you want to believe plant "pain" and animal pain are the same thing, you're simply deluding yourself. The problem here is that you think ethics exist in the animal kingdom. Once you bring up animal rights, you bring up animal duties and the ability to comprehend those rights. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| man i have know this MY WHOLE LIFE!! now do I think plants can literally feel pain? No. But they react to it and I feel like mother earth feels the pain. Her oversoul takes the collective energy. It's like a clue of nature... plants can feel you. That doesn't make you bad for cutting your lawn but on a systemic level destruction of the forests is just as bad as hurting a person... |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
| It bothers me that people are about this still when humans are omnivorous and can eat whatever they want. Either way you're killing something and eating it, so why would you go so far to justify your diet or whatever Let people eat their processed fast food and tofu products in peace plz |
| Although I don't see myself ever going vegan, I will never deny that vegans have the more compelling argument. Ever. |
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LabelFlash said: Meat-eaters don't give consideration to the animals that are being killed on a regular basis for their personal enjoyment of consumption. Why should Vegans give consideration to the meat-eaters? Because they're smarter than animals? Then where do we draw the line on intelligence? Do we start killing and eating babies? They can't eat, they can't read? What about the mentally ill? It's very fucking obvious what eating meat does. It harms the animals who SUFFER. You can choose to ignore that fact, and continue eating meat. Or you can recognize eating animals is bad and unmoral, and quit. You don't have to throw out your shoes because they have leather, you don't have to take the Tuna you bought a week prior and remove it from your house. You don't have to sell your pets. What you simply have to do is not support the companies that harm animals, it's that simple. Animals (including homo sapiens) don't consider the suffering of other animals when they kill them for food. Such is nature. "But you're treating some types of animals as less worth than others!" Everyone does, I'm pretty sure you (correct me if I'm wrong) don't think mosquitoes and fire ants as equals to dogs and cats, or other humans. It's fine if you are a vegan for health and ecological reasons and you want to reduce suffering, just don't assume your ethics are 100% consistent and flawless and that you're more compassionate than omnivores. The only way to live a life that will require no living being to suffer is to not live at all. |
SuperRedApr 17, 2017 8:08 AM
| So Sun Eaters are the only ones who follow the right path? |
LabelFlash said: SuperRed said: Animals (including homo sapiens) don't consider the suffering of other animals when they kill them for food. Such is nature. "But you're treating some types of animals as less worth than others!" Everyone does, I'm pretty sure you (correct me if I'm wrong) don't think mosquitoes and fire ants as equals to dogs and cats, or other humans. It's fine if you are a vegan for health and ecological reasons and you want to reduce suffering, just don't assume your ethics are 100% consistent and flawless and that you're more compassionate than omnivores. The only way to live a life that will require no living being to suffer is to not live at all. Your last line is actually 100% correct. I am an anti-natalist, and would prefer there to be no suffering in the world (and by extension; no life). With that said, your opening line about "Animals don't considering the suffering of other animals when they kill them for food." is also true. However, humans can still choose to not eat meat, and it is possible for all of humanity to become vegetarian/vegan and stop torturing and killing animals. Just because a Lion kills a Wildebeest doesn't mean it's moral for a human to kill a pig for flavoring. Your line about the mosquitoes and such, is pointless to even discuss. If an insect can't feel pain, then who cares, but we know things such as cows, dogs, cats, pigs, wolves etc. CAN feel pain very similar to how humans do. The judgement of an animals "worthiness", in my eyes, is if they have the brain power to undergo pain. If you DO respond (probably won't since it's clear you haven't thought that much about this subject) then please focus more on my first point than the one about mosquitoes. Well, societies don't and can't operate on that philosophy since it's not helpful for their survival. Most people don't think the existence of their own species as the worst thing that happened in the history of this planet, sorry. As for eating meat not being necessary, well I admit I don't have the best answer to that, I personally think there is nothing immoral or moral about eating anything, unless it's certain cases like human cannibalism. I don't support torture, if animals are going to be raised for consumption then I would support making their death as quick and painless as possible. Why should "pain" be the deciding factor over others? |
LabelFlash said: So far all the arguments against veganism I've seen are "Well it tastes good xD" "lol who cares" "animals wuld eat u 2 xD" Facts 1. Humans can go without meat. 2. Veganism prevents suffering in Cows, Chickens, etc. etc. ANIMALS WHICH CAN FEEL PAIN (unlike plants lol) 3. Humans can be healthy eating things they don't like the taste of. 4. Meat-based products in most countries are horrid for your health. 5. Ignoring the problem of animals suffering, is silly. Because you selectively ignored or overlooked other points. Like how I pointed out that vegetarianism and veganism don't necessarily lack killing of animals and how not all animals feel pain the same and certain ones like mussels may not feel it any more than a plant would. I also pointed out how you're still taking a life to eat vegetables, only fruits and nuts and some argue teas can be eaten without taking a life so fruitarianism is more consistent. LabelFlash said: Meat-eaters don't give consideration to the animals that are being killed on a regular basis for their personal enjoyment of consumption. Why should Vegans give consideration to the meat-eaters? Because they're smarter than animals? Then where do we draw the line on intelligence? Do we start killing and eating babies? They can't eat, they can't read? What about the mentally ill? It's very fucking obvious what eating meat does. It harms the animals who SUFFER. You can choose to ignore that fact, and continue eating meat. Or you can recognize eating animals is bad and unmoral, and quit. You don't have to throw out your shoes because they have leather, you don't have to take the Tuna you bought a week prior and remove it from your house. You don't have to sell your pets. What you simply have to do is not support the companies that harm animals, it's that simple. Babies have social qualities to them from relation to other people as do pets. Eating meat is not immoral or moral, it's amoral. Also unmoral isnt a word. Not all companies are equal and if you actually cared about animals you would accept people doing something other than veganism if they wont go vegan because it's better than nothing. Also the biggest abuse isnt from meat eaters themselves it's from the capitalist system that tries to maximize profits. Natasha said: A more accurate title for this thread is: "Plants release gases. Let's bash vegans." Can anyone who agrees with OP explain how plants can experience pain? "I think so" or "this sensational article/video said so" won't cut it. Use plant anatomy and physiology to support your position. It should be simple if, as OP claimed, "scientists have already confirmed that plants feel pain". I’ll accept citations from peer-reviewed articles. Otherwise, this is just a case of using metaphors to create controversy=views. You're clearly missing the point. It's not that they feel pain it's that most vegetarians/vegans don't care about the possibility that they do but it's just not understood how even though some signs of it exist and some act like they are superior. Some people in the past used to argue animals don't feel pain. Things always exist before science fully explains it. It's just in a state that it is suspected that plants have a certain intelligence to them and can respond to their environment. Do you know what being a plant feels like? Or another animal? Probably not. So no reason to assume you know for sure. Kidemonas said: I don't know about waste and pollutants from supplements. Where can I read about this? I only know of 1 vitamin that you can't obtain through plant sources, and that is B12 which is produced by bacteria in the gut (humans often don't produce enough). Supplements are readily available thanks to lab-grown bacteria. I don't see why that 1 thing would be an issue. This is on par with eating non-sourdough bread (lab-grown yeast) or eating things with citric acid (lab-grown bacteria, not citrus fruits), except that a vitamin supplement is much smaller in volume. It was more a common sense thing. They have to isolate compounds to produce supplements somehow because it usually has a souce it is extracted from. If that is more or less than what it takes to get the same amount of nutrients from meat I have no idea. I tried looking for info on it but im having difficulty finding it. Bacteria ? That would only produce certain things. |
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| @LabelFlash You don't care that animals get killed while growing and harvesting crops? You don't care about the environmental impact of supplement production that in turn harms the animals? You don't care about deforestation to grow crop that takes away homes of animals in the wild or kills them? You don't care that a few certain animals dont have a central nervous system or how different animals have a different brain structure thus dont experience pain like a human ass you claim? That's an opinion not a fact you listed in 5. You should learn what facts are. Also no I did not do that, you just did a strawman by claiming I'm ignoring it when I'm not. You're ignoring things arent black and white. Murder is more a legal term. It's not murder, it is killing though. It's not killing out of malice or spite or for fun. Some people cant afford the amount of calories it takes in non animal or animal biproduct foods alone. Once an animal is dead it's dead and whether or not you eat the meat will not brig it back. You could try to argue it's supporting an industry but if you knew more about economics you would know that supply and demand is a myth. Corporations keep up production to try to push and pressure people to buy things when they dont want it. Also what about animals that died of a natural death or were put down from being ill or injured beyond help? The parts for your computer probably came from a strip mine that killed small mammals and used child labour as well as damaged the environment. You probably never thought of that once. |
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traed said: Natasha said: A more accurate title for this thread is: "Plants release gases. Let's bash vegans." Can anyone who agrees with OP explain how plants can experience pain? "I think so" or "this sensational article/video said so" won't cut it. Use plant anatomy and physiology to support your position. It should be simple if, as OP claimed, "scientists have already confirmed that plants feel pain". I’ll accept citations from peer-reviewed articles. Otherwise, this is just a case of using metaphors to create controversy=views. You're clearly missing the point. It's not that they feel pain it's that most vegetarians/vegans don't care about the possibility that they do but it's just not understood how even though some signs of it exist and some act like they are superior. Some people in the past used to argue animals don't feel pain. Things always exist before science fully explains it. It's just in a state that it is suspected that plants have a certain intelligence to them and can respond to their environment. Do you know what being a plant feels like? Or another animal? Probably not. So no reason to assume you know for sure. All I was asking was for people to support the claims they make. Ironically, if plants do feel pain, that's one more reason to become vegan. Anyway, what is the actual point you guys are trying to make? That it’s acceptable to mistreat and slaughter billions of animals because plants could possibly 'feel pain'? |
MischievousGhostApr 17, 2017 5:54 PM
traed said: It was more a common sense thing. They have to isolate compounds to produce supplements somehow because it usually has a souce it is extracted from. If that is more or less than what it takes to get the same amount of nutrients from meat I have no idea. I tried looking for info on it but im having difficulty finding it. Bacteria ? That would only produce certain things. Like I said, B12 is produced by bacteria and it is the one thing you need to supplement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Synthesis_and_industrial_production |
LabelFlash said: @traed @SuperRed What happened guys? Thought I was going to get educated about how slaughtering animals is actually moral and a good idea. I felt like the argument is going to go nowhere so I don't feel like continuing, sorry (it happens often, even with easier conversations). Keep it up with someone else if you wish. No hard feelings, you do have legitimate questions to ponder over. |
SuperRedApr 19, 2017 3:07 PM
| you are a complete idiot are you seriously comparing a plant to an animal |
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