Akame ga Kill! Chapter 75 Discussion

NathanielKeehl said:


Father was powerful given he was a philosopher stone, even without the knowledge and experience he would have been hard to defeat. True, he was eventually beaten, but it took a lot of time and effort to do so. And for much of the fight the efforts of the alchemists and the military did not even faze him.

Cell was not strong simply because of his regenerative abilities, by himself he was able to defeat all the Z warriors, and let's remember that Gohan only defeated him and the other cells after getting the power-up and going SSJ2---without that he would have been toast.

Majin Boo could only be defeated by Goku who, as you said, didn't want to intervene---I guess the author decided he had made his hero too OP and boring---but that means that Majin Boo was OP because he was able to annihilate everyone else by himself.

Makoto Shishio. I think you should go watch/read RuroKen again. Shishio survived the Amakakeru ryu no hirameki and was about to kill Kenshin when he overheated. In effect, he killed himself. And as I said before, Word of God is that he is OP and no one was going to be able to put him down.

Charles zi Britannia, again it takes an asspull power-up to defeat him---usually the sign of having to face a villain that's too OP. As for Suzaku, he was able to one-shot all the remaining Knights of the Round and he was only tied with Kallen in their last fight, in all the previous ones he had the upper hand.

True Sauron was not OP within the extended universe, but within the LOTR books he was OP, his only weakness was the Ring.

Vader was beaten by Luke only when the latter went dark side mode for a short moment and was able to disarm him, without that he would have lost. And Palpatine only got killed because of Vader, Luke wouldn't have been able to kill him on his own. And let's remember that both were old and heavily battle scarred---Vader especially---at the top of their game they were unbeatable.

L was only killed because he made a mistake, he announced his plans to try to see if the two other rules of the Death Note were fake. Without that he would have won. But again, Light's confrontation with L is one of constant effort and struggle before he eventually wins.

Titans... yeah, all right, they have suffered villain decay, and Levi himself is too OP---which is why I find him to be a boring character---but for a long time killing a Titan was something only a few could do, making them generally OP.

(Voldie was short for Voldemort).

Anyway, the difference between OP villains and OP heroes is that OP villains are all eventually defeated because "good guys always win." That doesn't mean that the villains are not OP. It simply means that their OP qualities must take second place to the moral demands of the author and the audience. Nevertheless, they are always beaten only through either asspulls and/or the combined efforts of several of the good guys.

Furthermore, the difference between the OP villains above and Esdeath are twofold. First, many of the works we are referring to are much better crafted than AgK! and therefore there are in-built limitations to the OPness of the villains. Secondly, they are all finished works so we know that the good guys won which makes us think that the villains/antagonists were not as OP as they actually were. I am sure Esdeath will endure the same fate.

MilviBritannia said:
But you still don't really disprove my point. The people you name are not OP they are just very powerful and they needed to be in order for the Anime/Manga to be interesting as I am sure you would agree. None of them we're anymore OP than any end game boss in the FF series when you have a team of 4 fighting 1 guy or whatever.

Father - powerful yes, OP not really since his power is linked to the souls he devoured which have a limit.

Cell/Buu - both killed in 1v1s relatively speaking.

Shishio - i"ve read the manga and watched the anime. Kenshin fought numerous people before ever reaching shishio including Aoshi and Seta who were both extremely strong. Even under these circumstances Shishio eventually loses, despite knowing the secret of Kenshins secret weapon so to speak. Under fair circumstances Kenshin would have destroyed Shishio - meaning a well rested 1v1 where he doesn't know where to look to block kenshin. Frankly I found Enishi more impressive than Shishio but thats just me.

Charles - how is it an asspull? I mean he simply got beaten by lelouch asking for assistance from the collective unconscious, the same power that charles himself tried to control and manipulate. They both effectively tried to use the same power to varying degrees of success.

Vader/Palpatine - Luke is (in the extended universe) far more powerful than both at the top of his power. Palpatine is at the top of his power when he is emperor his age has little to do with his control of the force (unless we count that bs clone thing where he keeps coming back but that continuity seems to be pretty much getting erased given the new movies). Vader indeed was already scarred from his battle with Obi wan but there is no way to know how powerful he could have become because we will likely never know and it would be pure conjecture. Suffice it to say that he was defeated by his son, the means by which he lost is irrelevant because it was not an asspull it was simply being over powered. I'm not denying that they are some of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe but they are by no means OP since there is always a counter balance to them.

L - OP means (in my understanding) so powerful that they are either unbeatable or practically at that level...he is very clearly beatable if he made a mistake which an enemy used to kill him. He is no more OP than Lelouch if we are simply talking about intelligence but again that is my take on it.

My point when I originally said none of them were OP was because all these characters are indeed powerful but very clearly beatable either 1v1 or with a coordinated group effort. You drew a parallel between Mine/Pumpkin and Esdeath calling them both OP. Mine is nowhere near the idea of OP as she basically had to give all but her life in order to kill Budou. On the other hand Esdeath effortlessly toys with an army of 1 million soldiers, countless teigu users and well a tyrant dragon. I can't see the connection nor the similarity in calling them both OP when one is clearly a thousand leagues over the other if you're talking about pure OP bs asspull powers....i mean she freezes time ffs.

NathanielKeehl said:


OP simply means overpowered. Not impossible to beat. I think you're confusing being OP with being Saitama or Goku.



It took every available state alchemist, one homunculus, one or two battalions of soldiers, an alkahestrist, a Xing warrior, and another living philosopher stone to finally defeat Father. I think that's a pretty good measure of how OP he was. In video game terms, he is the kind of boss for which you need a huge party in order to beat him.



Only after beating everyone else and their last opponents getting a last minute power-up. Again, without that Cell and Buu would have won.



Again, word of God is that Shishio was unbeatable. And again, I urge you to read/watch RuroKen once more. He lost because he went beyond his time limit and burned himself up---literally. Arguably, he and Kenshin were already fighting "under fair circusmtances"---he was fighting with a burn body and a time limit---not to mention that he casually one-shot Aoshi, Saito, and Sanosuke.



The assistance from the collective unconscious is what I consider an asspull.



I thought word of God was that Anakin/Vader was the most powerful of all force users, being the Chosen One and all that.



Again, see above. OP simply means immensely overpowered. Not necessarily unbeatable or near unbeatable.

I didn't read harry potter so i can't really comment on voldemort.



Take Esdeath out of the series and the most OP teigu/character would be Mine and her Pumpkin. The only way you could get her out of the story was by having them sacrifice their own energy (though she's still alive, being the author's pet has its perks). As for Esdeath, yeah, she's OP. If she were the protagonist or on the side of the good guys it would be a boring (or rather, more boring) series. As an antagonist/villain, she makes everything more exciting. Or should, if the author knows what he is doing---and we know he doesn't really know what he is doing.

And Esdeath's weakness has already been pointed out, even she can't fight one million men and so many teigu users at once.

MilviBritannia said:
You keep repeating the term word of God, what exactly do you mean? That the author confirmed what you say? Because I can assure you that this is not the case.

1. I never said they had to be literally unbeatable I said practically unbeatable or close to it. Saitama is definitely considered as an OP character, Goku not so much given the villain cast of the series.

2. That is kind of what I said, Father could be beaten with a coordinated effort. Esdeath is not being beaten anywhere near to the same extent with a coordinated effort but I will come back to her later.

3. Last minute power up? What are you talking about? Gohan's power was always known to people, he didn't magically receive it like he did on Namek. it was there all the time he was just afraid of using it because he didn't want to hurt anyone. Nobody received a random power up to beat Buu. He is eventually beaten by the spirit bomb but thats about it.

4. Shishio is nowhere near unbeatable. One shotting Aoshi, Saito, and Sanosuke is hardly an achievement after they were all half dead from their personal battles. You're fanboying him way too much. I remember very well about Shishio's condition I also remember that he sacrificed his mistress to get an edge which is hardly a fitting way to behave in a duel, all after he got his ass kicked by a half dead kenshin (practically the entire fight is shishio pulling tricks rather than actually dueling but w/e). Regardless of how you feel about the shishio v kenshin fight, it makes little difference because shishio is far from the strongest character in the series, hence he is nowhere near the word unbeatable. That title goes to Hiko Seijuro, and that is "word of God" because the author himself said so and the reason he didn't involve Hiko Seijuro in that fight is because Hiko would stomp without any effort.

5. Sooo it is ok for Charles to use and manipulate the collective unconscious but not Lelouch? If you wanna play it that way then the whole concept is pointless and asspull.

6. No Vader had the highest Midi-chlorian count that was seen up to that point. His link to the force was strong as he was presumable conceived by midi-chlorians, he just never translated it into anything. He was cocky and over confident hence why he got thrashed by Obi wan.

7. Taking out Esdeath, Akame, Tatsumi and Wave would have all killed Mine in a heart beat. Even Seryuu nearly did it. Esdeath is imo a boring as fuck character as she constantly gets new asspull powers to make her seem even more broken than she did a chapter before. Also saying that her weakness is a million soldiers and countless teigu users etc is just...painfully bad as an example of a weakness. She has no weakness that is what makes her boring as a character. She is far more OP than Father ever was in this regard. He held off a number of alchemists and a batallion of soldiers. She is holding of the series equivalent of alchemists i.e. teigu users (you can include greed in this as he is about the same strength as them) and a full army, whilst freezing time, whilst freezing a country.

NathanielKeehl said:


There once was a time when Goku was not OP. That time is long gone.



Gohan's power-up came just at the right time during the fight with Cell, and triggered by an event that should not have affected him emotionally that much. As for Buu, Goku, if I recall correctly, had his friends use the Dragon Balls to grant him back the power he had lost, that's what allowed him to continue the fight with Buu.



Everyone being half-dead just puts them on the same ground as Shishio. Yes, Hiko Seijuro is the most powerful character in the series. But Word of God is that Shishio could not have been beaten by the Kenshin-gumi. Which makes him OP, given how only HS could have beaten him.



Charles had been using his geass for decades, whereas Lelouch had only used it for a year. It all felt too sudden and opportune to me.



That still makes him the one with the strongest connection to the force.



I agree with you that if Esdeath was a protagonist it would make the series even more boring. As it stands, seeing her obliterate everyone around her is one of the few highlights left in this horrorshow of a manga.

Whether Wave would have been able to kill Mine is debatable, given how Pumpkin can blast through almost anything and becomes more powerful the more dangerous the situation is and the stronger the "feelings" of the user happen to be. She could probably beat Akame if she was fast enough on the trigger. As for Tatsumi, well, that would depend on whether or not Tatsumi did or did not get an asspull power-up himself.

Back to Esdeath though, you say that she is worse than Father. In fact, she is exactly the same. She's OP as fuck and her only weakness is attrition, just like Father. The only difference is that you and I have already seen Father lose, so we tend to forget how f*cking OP he was---I should also note that Führer King Bradley was pretty OP as well---this will eventually be the case with Esdeath as well, she has already

MilviBritannia said:
1. I disagree since the villains they introduce seem to be far more OP than him. Whis or Vados are probably the closes thing we get to OP in the series so far.

2. Gohan had already shown his SSJ2 power for a split second to Goku during training in the hyperbolic time chamber hence this is not the first time he achieves it, making your point simply incorrect. He was able to achieve SSJ2 long before he does it with cell he is simply afraid of using such power, hence why android 16 tells him to drop his restraint.

3. Goku's power in his earthly body is weakened by the strain of using SSJ3 which he seems to have achieved recently. Wishing him to get some power back against a being which supposedly has an infinite energy source is hardly an asspull...and your arguments on this point actually counters your own concept of Goku being OP if he needs help to beat buu and supports my theory that he is not OP.

4. You again use the term word of God which is hilarious since there is no word of God on Shishio. The only word of God on the matter is Watsuki saying that Hiko is the strongest and that in a fight between Kenshin and Saito the winner would depend on whether Kenshin was defending someone or not. There are no further comments about Shishios strength by the author (none that I've seen, read or seen anyone link) hence what you are saying is pure conjecture based on your own fanboyism. And I reiterate Shisio fights dirty in every shape and form hence I can't even take his fights seriously. Also him wearing a metal headband at the exact place where Saito strikes is the literal definition of an asspull, in spite of his past.

5. Lelouch also had CC with him the entire time not that it matters because the length of having controlled the geass has nothing to do with the ability to speak to the collective unconscious.

6. Yes which Vader translated into nothing, hence he cannot be OP.

7. You can have 1 person fight 2 other people and watch them wear him down and defeat him in the long run. Despite that person being superior to both in a 1v1 you would say they got defeated by attrition and superior numbers. However, if that same person fights 1 vs 1 000 000 and is eventually defeated the feat is hardly the same. Saying that father fighting one battalion and a bunch of alchemists is the same as Esdeath having 1 million soldiers thrown at her along with all the teigu users, whilst freezing time, freezing the country and fighting a tyrant dragon is frankly trolling. At least father starts to show like he is trying when they start ganging up on him. Esdeath seems to be having a walk in the park for most of that fight.

NathanielKeehl said:


And yet he always finds a way to win. *rolls eyes*



We had never seen the SSJ2 before his fight with Cell, we only knew he had become more powerful. Not that he had become so powerful he was able to easily vanquish Cell. Quite a difference.



I never even made it an argument that Goku was OP, it was an aside. Anyway, it seems that you concede that Buu was OP, given how Goku was only able to win with the wish.



There are so many problems with your post. In the first place, you assume I am a Shishio fanboy. I still have no idea where you got this notion from, but it certainly wasn't from me. Secondly, saying that Shishio fights "dirty" is a childish whine, and surely even you can concede that. These guys are not fighting in a tournament, they are fighting to kill each other. Thirdly, the author was pretty clear that once Shishio was able to see a move he would be able to block it, which is why Saito wasn't able to land a single blow on him after the first one. Fourthly, the metal piece seems to be completely justified.





Once more, you confuse OP with unbeatable.



The difference is easily explained. The author of Akame ga Kill! is damn awful. That's not the case with the author of FMA.

MilviBritannia said:


1. The good guy wins in 90% of anime, so if you are planning to roll your eyes every time that happens you're gonna have eye problems soon enough. Goku hilariously enough was killed during his fight with Radditz and Cell which is more deaths in fights with enemies than most anime protagonists. Your point simply doesn't stand.

2. Yes we did see him achieve SSJ2 for a split second in the hyperbolic time chamber. Goku remembers it whilst watching Gohan vs Cell. You clearly don't remember very well. Also "easily defeat cell"? Did you and I watch the same anime? I seem to remember a pretty lengthy stand off between the two.

3. Do you even read your own previous comments? Yes you did say that Goku was op. Here is a quote "There once was a time when Goku was not OP. That time is long gone." I agree Buu was powerful but not OP. Like I said Whis, Vados are OP and Zen-Oh is the definition of OP, I urge you to learn and understand the difference.

4. You are a Shishio fanboy given that you are trying to convince me that he is OP despite there being no evidence of that. Enishi could do the same thing, after seeing kenshin's move he was able to avoid and counter it. Saying that it is "Word of God" is total bullshit since I already explained what facts were CONFIRMED by the author. What you are saying is conjecture. Childish whining? Then why doesn't Kenshin fight dirty? Why didn't Seta fight dirty? Why didn't Hiko fight dirty? You have no ground to stand on. I agree that in a fight to the death anything goes but that wasn't what we were arguing about was it? The question is why would someone who is so OP in your eyes, need to use dirty tricks to win? Answer? Because he is not OP in any shape or form.

5. No I don't, you simply think anyone skillful/powerful is OP.

6. If this is the case why are you even on this forum? And this not only doesn't disprove my point, you actually make it for me. I guess I should thank you for confirming what I'm saying, so thanks!

NathanielKeehl said:


I see that you're through with your patience and your ability to hold a polite conversation. I'm putting an end to the argument. Clearly you misunderstand what OP means, you think it means unbeatable, not just "overpowered", i.e. the plain meaning of the word.

I will only deign to answer one of your questions, that is, why I am on this forum. Like a lot of people I used to be a fan of AgK, now I am just waiting until it's all over.

MilviBritannia said:

At no point in our little discussion was i impolite. If anything you were the impolite one when you called my comments childish whining. The fact that you have no legitimate response to what I wrote is a different story.

Reading is by no means compulsory if you don't enjoy the manga, feel free to move on to other things.

It is you who doesn't understand what OP means. To you it symbolizes anyone who is powerful or skillful. To me anyone who is, as the term states, Over Powered for that specific franchise, which none of the characters who happened to name are. Esdeath trumps them all by a mile in terms of her own franchise, but I guess you already conceded that. Have a lovely day!

NathanielKeehl said:


Oh please, your replies have been dripping with condescension for quite a while now and this one is no exception. It has nothing to do with being unable to continue our argument. I simply see no point in arguing with someone who won't maintain the minimum standard of respect.

I will continue to read the manga because I like to finish the things I start.

As for the meaning of OP, it is still you who doesn't understand the meaning of the word. And I never even denied that Esdeath was OP.