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Cejara said: I'd like to see you saying the same when you're in her shoes. She was used, abused, exploited, tortured on a DAILY basis for THREE fucking years, and she did ALL of that in order to save her brother, but quite obviously the continuous experience of all she went through, traumatized her deeply and destroyed every ounce of hope she ever had, leaving only despair and resignal.Of course I followed the story, doesn't give her an excuse to go on a murderous rampage because he loves Iris. That isn't even what I had a problem with, I just think shes a bitch regardless. This sub-plot for the rebellion made 0 sense in alignment with the characters former actions and beliefs. I honestly can careless about Lise and her Stasi backstory. She was like a child who didn't get her toy, she got pissed just because she couldn't be romantically involved with her brother BUT she wanted to be with her brother no matter what, so in that case that makes no sense either unless she just wanted to be romantically involved with him and nothing else. Because if she wanted to have a relationship with her brother no matter what like she acts like then she would of stayed with the 666 batallion instead of go back to the Stasi and piss them off and make her brother completely cut her off. Her one and ONLY motivation to do the shit she did was reunite with her brother for whom she endured all that crap...........only to find out he had other "priorities" in mind that weren't herself, and if that was not enough of a blow on the solar plexus, the fact he BANGED her and later went after Irisdina was the killing blow. It was as if she literally suffered hell for three years, and her "reward" was having her brother sleep with her to use her, since he was visibly in love with Irisdina. Of COURSE that would break her, her only hope was pretty much destroyed right in front of her eyes and by her own brother no less. Everything went to shit there and she became nuts as she embraced full despair. As for the attack in the city, it was cruel and bloody? Yes I agree very much to that, but do not forget, this is WAR and a CIVIL WAR at that. One would not like to get people involved but unfortunately they will, whether they like it or not. War does not forgive nobody, it only engulfs them all, and more often than not it is very cruel in how that happens. Theodor may not have wanted civilians to die, but he feels it was his fault that Pham got killed by Lise, so it is likely he is gonna become a lot more cruel and cold (something that apparently Katia catched on as she watched in horror as he made his declaration to kill Lise). Now hopefully you will understand all of that, before you start performing lessons of morality, that are quite frankly, devoid of any solid substance whatsoever. |
 |
| Guys, this was a happy episode for me because Lise is dead. This is my personal opinion, you guys need to read the LN because it describes on how Lise and Theo got captured which is due to a certain someone's fault From an analytical approach (Non-bias) Lise can't be saved by normal means, she is too fucked up mentally and physically due to the Stasi. First of all, she was ganged raped (includes Anal sex also), she was blackmailed by Axxman that he was going to show the pictures of her rape to theo,and she became Axxman's personal dog. Later, Lise would become a Swallow (A prostitute who uses her body for information) and kills people including small children and teens. The Stasi literally broke Lise as her last attempt to grasp her "Humanity", she thought of the past Theo (Not the Present). All in all, Lise hands were stained with blood and she was in too deep with the Stasi. It would be like a Soldier in the Military, "We" sworn an oath to protect our nation from any threats, and to mantain protection. "We" kill people, but at least "we" believe that the nation is "safer" Due to this approach, many come back with PTSD from deployment and "our" hands are stained with blood.. This is called Legal Murder under the Pretext of War |
| Despite how big of a maniac and bitch lise was, I still felt a little bad about the end. |
| It's damn sad, but, it was the only way to save Lise. She was driven into absolute insanity, every part of humanity she had was broken, the Stasi's control over her was something she couldn't have been cured no matter what she did. Death was the only salvation left for her. RIP. |
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| ended just how i wanted put that poor bitch out of her misery but among the other fucked up things the plan to lure them into the center of town to take them out with so many innocent people around still i want to believe it was only because they were so short on time and it was the best they could come up with. |
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ixarising said: That quite counts as being "exploited" though. Ok she was not a prostitute anymore, but she had to do dirty work regardless for the Stasi no less.To be exact, she didn't underwent what you said for three years on a daily basis. It was about 1 and a half years or so cause all those thing you mentioned ended once she joined the Werewolf Battalion, Beatrix help save her from Axmann's grip, the remaining one and a half was mostly done under her free will or more appropriately of her loyalty to Beatrix whom she started to view as an older sister figure. |
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Yep... I'm fcking sad man...even if Lise had it coming, in the end she was a VERY unfortunate victim. I was still hoping she'd be captured or at least deal satisfying blow to the statis(or Axman in particular) going out. At least she died smiling... The scene was powerful though. Farewell to the best girl of Schwarzesmarken. And here I once thought Iris was gonna be my favorite. Speaking of Iris, if she isn't rescued then I don't know how Theodor's gonna manage to hold himself together. |
| Ahaaha fucking finally. She finally gets shot. Good episode. |
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| [quote=DarkSlayer182 message=45166634 I know how you feel, and I really want to see her live and get her happy end too. But I think there are only 2 possible actions that can be taken: 1. Save Lise by killing her; 2. Capture and cure her with theraphy and other cures. Sadly, the most realisctic option at that time is the former as we don't konw how much time it'd take to cure her and at what cost.. :( [/quote] The best way to cure someone is really by showing them affection, trust, and the change that you want in them. The best way to have cured her was them interacting with her, Theo defending her, being there for her, comrades giving her their trust. Which they did and look what happened. What else were they suppose to do exactly? therapy with 2 wars going at? They have the stasis and betas to fight, you think they have doctors available?  I think this scene was very important in showing how they were just pulling her strings To be honest, it doesn't even feel like she really did love him. No what happened was the Stasis brainwashed her into becoming infatuated with him telling her it was up to her saved him by getting him to join. They drilled this into her very very deep. They manipulated her to become like this, they used what she at some point genuinely felt, and used it to control her. She was just a tool for them. I can see that maybe she didn't like the Stasis either and was only with them for protection because it was the obvious choice to make, and did what they asked of her because in her mind she believe doing that would get her closer to Theo but in her mind did she ever once think, what would happened to Theo had he joined? Another way to have cured her would have been for Theo to be captured by Stasis, watch him be tortured and be shown first hand why the Statis was the real enemy. I think that would have snapped her into making the Stasis into her number one enemy. Perhaps them maybe she would have contacted the rebels, let them hes being capture and she will help them save them. |
| Goodbye Lise Ding Dong Lise is dead La la la |
| that was really emotional for me. People arguing how easy it makes to change a victim like Lise back into a normal person makes me laugh. What she did for her brother, but only to find out that he is already set on being on the other side. Too have that to a already unstable person would just feel a complete loss. |
IheartCCMar 14, 2016 12:04 AM
| Hate Keeps me warm |
| Dark... I don't know why... But i can't fully hate her. She obviously deserves it, but i feel bad about what she went through. Am i supposed to be happy , sad, disgusted or angry?!  |
steph96 said: Dark... I don't know why... But i can't fully hate her. She obviously deserves it, but i feel bad about what she went through. Am i supposed to be happy , sad, disgusted or angry?! How about being sorry for her? |
| Hate Keeps me warm |
IheartC2 said: steph96 said: Dark... I don't know why... But i can't fully hate her. She obviously deserves it, but i feel bad about what she went through. Am i supposed to be happy , sad, disgusted or angry?! How about being sorry for her? I do feel sorry for her...but Pham tho... I really can't say that i don't resent her for that... (I'm extremely confused atm) |
| That episode was extremely poignant. Even now after watching it an hour ago I feel very somber. Without getting into a debate over whether Lise deserved her fate or not, I just want to say that it's difficult not to feel sorry for her regardless. She may have been messed up in the head, but it wasn't her own actions that led to that. Being born into a fascist totalitarian state where the concept of "trust" was pretty much non-existent wasn't her choice. Nor was being persecuted for being born into a family on the wrong side of the state either. All the inhumane things that she experienced subsequently weren't of her volition, and yet it broke her down, rebuilt and molded her back into what she ended up becoming. Some of you may say "I'd rather die than do this, or do that", but have you actually ever been placed in a situation where you were required to actually make such a choice? For most of us, I highly doubt it. To blame her for her mindset and for what she subsequently became is akin to blaming a person who had been forced to take drugs for the very first time with a gun pointed at their head, and subsequently became an addict. Sure you can blame her for the choices that she made after she became this addict, but if you have never experienced just how powerful an effect a drug addiction has on a persons mind and body, then saying something like "you had a choice" or "you didn't HAVE to do it", is merely hypocritical rambling of someone who sees themselves on a higher moral ground without having ever experienced being forced to stoop down to what they perceive to be as "immoral" levels. She may have had too many screws loose in her head to be redeemed in the end, but she was a victim of circumstances at the end of the day. By the same situation I believe that Theodore makes for a failure of a protagonist. He escaped from the Stasi with his life because his sister sacrificed herself, and yet he never thought to search for her whereabouts or to think of rescuing her from her captors even after all these years. Even when he found out that she was still alive, I never saw him actually that joyful in the knowledge that she had survived the purge which destroyed their family. And in the end he went so far as to sleep with her in order to try and bring her under his control. I couldn't empathize with his tears this episode, and in the end the feeling I got when he shot his sister dead was simply "this is a mess that you made, so it's right that you be the one to clean it up". This dude gets no sympathy from me. He messed up with almost everything he's done since the first episode (like calling Irisdina a Stasi dog), and to me it's been more of the same ever since. To me, Steinhoff had the best quote of the series: Good Protagonists learn to wipe their own ass. Theodore who's needed help in getting his ass wiped every step of the way thus far makes for a poor protagonist. |
HESTIA   APPROVES |
| Quote of the episode: "It's a nice ass" Yes, I totally agree with the guy. Steinhoff does have a nice ass. +1 |
SandyBoiMar 14, 2016 12:40 AM
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jomarggg said: Theo why cant you save her she needed much saving and a happy ending too. God this is giving me a headache first she got raped by the stasi and after that they threaten her that they will show pictures of her rape to her big brother and kill her big brother if she dont join them. To save Theo she joined the stasi and and forced to do all nasty shit. She went through hell and darkness but survived knowing that there is light at the end of the dark tunnel she went through which her dream of being with Theodore living somewhere being a happy family but that light faded away when she saw that theo didnt love her back the way she did. In her head it must have went "Why dosent brother love me back i endure all of does god forsaken years to make sure hes safe is everything that i have done all for nothing i cared about him so much that i did all of those things. And now that were together all he cares about is Irisdina im suppose to have a happy ending with him not her were suppose to be a happy family not with her why?" her dream is to be happy with Theo but now in that dream all she can see is Theo and Iris and that took a toll on her and thats when she snaps. 3 years of her life gone to waste doing all kinds of evil she didnt want and she was just a kid.To make sure Theo is alive the person she cares about more than anything in this world but Theo dosent care that much about her all he cares about is this stupid revolution and that girl Irisdina. Sorry for the long and terrible english post that i have made but i just cant stay mad about her she was tortured to like Pham. Her death gave me too much FEEL'S i just have to somehow vent my frustration Feel the same way about lise. Seems like this could have been handled differently from the start but that's the way anime goes. There are some very tragic pasts that shape characters, some get save and some don't. That's the way it goes. If they were all happy endings people would stop worrying about the situations and the story wouldn't have a good deal of impact with the viewer if you new everyone would be safe. |
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Everyone talks about DAT ASS AND LISE's DEATH, how about Irisdina situation?   What she gonna do next? |
ixarising said: On her explanation of things she felt quite disgusted at what she had done (including murdering people and stuff). Be it because of Axmann or because of Beatrix, she was nothing more but a tool and Beatrix wouldn't save her for free, she wanted another soldier under her she could use and she got it.She did most of it willingly after joining the Werewolf battalion though. The anime didn't show it at all but Lise is actually very loyal to Beatrix. Yes Theodor is one of the reason why Lise is working for the Stasi, so is Beatrix. Lise wants Beatrix to rise to the top and take over the Stasi, hence is willing to do anything for her. |
|
| Just one step closer to his final form. |
SimonLaDigger said: DarkSlayer182 said: I know how you feel, and I really want to see her live and get her happy end too. But I think there are only 2 possible actions that can be taken: 1. Save Lise by killing her; 2. Capture and cure her with theraphy and other cures. Sadly, the most realisctic option at that time is the former as we don't konw how much time it'd take to cure her and at what cost.. :( The best way to cure someone is really by showing them affection, trust, and the change that you want in them. The best way to have cured her was them interacting with her, Theo defending her, being there for her, comrades giving her their trust. Which they did and look what happened. What else were they suppose to do exactly? therapy with 2 wars going at? They have the stasis and betas to fight, you think they have doctors available? I think this scene was very important in showing how they were just pulling her strings To be honest, it doesn't even feel like she really did love him. No what happened was the Stasis brainwashed her into becoming infatuated with him telling her it was up to her saved him by getting him to join. They drilled this into her very very deep. They manipulated her to become like this, they used what she at some point genuinely felt, and used it to control her. She was just a tool for them. I can see that maybe she didn't like the Stasis either and was only with them for protection because it was the obvious choice to make, and did what they asked of her because in her mind she believe doing that would get her closer to Theo but in her mind did she ever once think, what would happened to Theo had he joined? Another way to have cured her would have been for Theo to be captured by Stasis, watch him be tortured and be shown first hand why the Statis was the real enemy. I think that would have snapped her into making the Stasis into her number one enemy. Perhaps them maybe she would have contacted the rebels, let them hes being capture and she will help them save them. I don't know if you read my post but I wrote that the most realistic option to take at that time is indeed saving Lise by killing her. Honestly, you really expect a trained brainwashed soldier who only have Stasi and her brother on her mind will find cure from the ones (666th) she is sent to spy and sees as enemy? I don't even think she actually cared that the 666th suspect her as a spy from the beginning (except if it's risking her mission and her bro). You can see that she doesn't even hesitate killing Pham, the one that in my opinion cared about Lise the most (even more that Theo). Actually I'm kinda mad at Theo, he could tried better in saving her. Is that impossible to save Lise and get her back to her sense? I don't think so. For starters, the 666th should have captured her when they had the chance (after Theo and Lise duel) and put her somewhere safe and secure prison from the enemy. Then do proper theraphy using hipnotyze and such. While at the same time the 666th and the NPA should somehow win the war and wipe Stasi out. By doing that at least Lise has no reason to fight for her "employer". Hopefully in time she will regain her common sense. Still, that's not a fast and easy way and there is no guarantee that there won't be any other casualties in the process. I don't think any girl her age is strong enough to receive that amount of torture from the Stasi and can still retain their common sense. Basically the fear, pain, and feeling of hopeless is too strong that she lose herself and turned obidient to the Stasi (or Beatrix to be precise as I read that she played the role of sister to Lise). I think she'll need at least three years of theraphy to get her common sense fully back, which not a good option considering how doomed the current world condition is. |
planetwarrior said: Everyone talks about DAT ASS AND LISE's DEATH, how about Irisdina situation? What she gonna do next? Dunno, but she'd better make it out of this alive, else Theo's prolly gonna loose it. The guy & everyone else from 666 need a break already. Also, we shouldn't loose the 2 best girls. At least one blonde should make it out of this alive. |
DarkSlayer182 said: SimonLaDigger said: The best way to cure someone is really by showing them affection, trust, and the change that you want in them. The best way to have cured her was them interacting with her, Theo defending her, being there for her, comrades giving her their trust. Which they did and look what happened. What else were they suppose to do exactly? therapy with 2 wars going at? They have the stasis and betas to fight, you think they have doctors available? I think this scene was very important in showing how they were just pulling her strings To be honest, it doesn't even feel like she really did love him. No what happened was the Stasis brainwashed her into becoming infatuated with him telling her it was up to her saved him by getting him to join. They drilled this into her very very deep. They manipulated her to become like this, they used what she at some point genuinely felt, and used it to control her. She was just a tool for them. I can see that maybe she didn't like the Stasis either and was only with them for protection because it was the obvious choice to make, and did what they asked of her because in her mind she believe doing that would get her closer to Theo but in her mind did she ever once think, what would happened to Theo had he joined? Another way to have cured her would have been for Theo to be captured by Stasis, watch him be tortured and be shown first hand why the Statis was the real enemy. I think that would have snapped her into making the Stasis into her number one enemy. Perhaps them maybe she would have contacted the rebels, let them hes being capture and she will help them save them. I don't know if you read my post but I wrote that the most realistic option to take at that time is indeed saving Lise by killing her. Honestly, you really expect a trained brainwashed soldier who only have Stasi and her brother on her mind will find cure from the ones (666th) she is sent to spy and sees as enemy? I don't even think she actually cared that the 666th suspect her as a spy from the beginning (except if it's risking her mission and her bro). You can see that she doesn't even hesitate killing Pham, the one that in my opinion cared about Lise the most (even more that Theo). Actually I'm kinda mad at Theo, he could tried better in saving her. Is that impossible to save Lise and get her back to her sense? I don't think so. For starters, the 666th should have captured her when they had the chance (after Theo and Lise duel) and put her somewhere safe and secure prison from the enemy. Then do proper theraphy using hipnotyze and such. While at the same time the 666th and the NPA should somehow win the war and wipe Stasi out. By doing that at least Lise has no reason to fight for her "employer". Hopefully in time she will regain her common sense. Still, that's not a fast and easy way and there is no guarantee that there won't be any other casualties in the process. I don't think any girl her age is strong enough to receive that amount of torture from the Stasi and can still retain their common sense. Basically the fear, pain, and feeling of hopeless is too strong that she lose herself and turned obidient to the Stasi (or Beatrix to be precise as I read that she played the role of sister to Lise). I think she'll need at least three years of theraphy to get her common sense fully back, which not a good option considering how doomed the current world condition is. I am not saying she could have been cured, I am saying due to the circumstances of what was going on, she was beyond hope |
| Irisdina's eyes certainly show no signs of resignation. A thrilling, action-packed episode and some highly welcome Stasi bashing. I wonder, whether our beloved red-haired antagonist Axmann will remain loyal to the rebellion till the end... Lise's end was depicted in a mesmerising manner, she must have found the salvation she was seeking, despite being separated from her brother. I still cannot forgive her deeds, however.  |
DarkSlayer182 said: SimonLaDigger said: The best way to cure someone is really by showing them affection, trust, and the change that you want in them. The best way to have cured her was them interacting with her, Theo defending her, being there for her, comrades giving her their trust. Which they did and look what happened. What else were they suppose to do exactly? therapy with 2 wars going at? They have the stasis and betas to fight, you think they have doctors available? I think this scene was very important in showing how they were just pulling her strings To be honest, it doesn't even feel like she really did love him. No what happened was the Stasis brainwashed her into becoming infatuated with him telling her it was up to her saved him by getting him to join. They drilled this into her very very deep. They manipulated her to become like this, they used what she at some point genuinely felt, and used it to control her. She was just a tool for them. I can see that maybe she didn't like the Stasis either and was only with them for protection because it was the obvious choice to make, and did what they asked of her because in her mind she believe doing that would get her closer to Theo but in her mind did she ever once think, what would happened to Theo had he joined? Another way to have cured her would have been for Theo to be captured by Stasis, watch him be tortured and be shown first hand why the Statis was the real enemy. I think that would have snapped her into making the Stasis into her number one enemy. Perhaps them maybe she would have contacted the rebels, let them hes being capture and she will help them save them. I don't know if you read my post but I wrote that the most realistic option to take at that time is indeed saving Lise by killing her. Honestly, you really expect a trained brainwashed soldier who only have Stasi and her brother on her mind will find cure from the ones (666th) she is sent to spy and sees as enemy? I don't even think she actually cared that the 666th suspect her as a spy from the beginning (except if it's risking her mission and her bro). You can see that she doesn't even hesitate killing Pham, the one that in my opinion cared about Lise the most (even more that Theo). Actually I'm kinda mad at Theo, he could tried better in saving her. Is that impossible to save Lise and get her back to her sense? I don't think so. For starters, the 666th should have captured her when they had the chance (after Theo and Lise duel) and put her somewhere safe and secure prison from the enemy. Then do proper theraphy using hipnotyze and such. While at the same time the 666th and the NPA should somehow win the war and wipe Stasi out. By doing that at least Lise has no reason to fight for her "employer". Hopefully in time she will regain her common sense. Still, that's not a fast and easy way and there is no guarantee that there won't be any other casualties in the process. I don't think any girl her age is strong enough to receive that amount of torture from the Stasi and can still retain their common sense. Basically the fear, pain, and feeling of hopeless is too strong that she lose herself and turned obidient to the Stasi (or Beatrix to be precise as I read that she played the role of sister to Lise). I think she'll need at least three years of theraphy to get her common sense fully back, which not a good option considering how doomed the current world condition is. The most painful torture Lise must have received was not from the stasi but seeing her brother go Irisdina this and Irisdina that and not even worry about her |
| Er, so, how loose is this adaptation? I don't really see them covering 7 volumes in 12 episodes... but.... |
| Disappear. This chair is an eyesore. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. |
| This was so heart-wrenching. Did Lise really have to die? So lets go over this: - Separated from her brother and captured by basically Nazis - Tortured in multiple ways over the years - Threatened that her brother would be killed - As a consequence her psyche broke, to a point where she disregards everything and everyone that stands in her way and is incapable of grasping why her actions are wrong. You could even say she was not entirely conscious. - The one person she cared about rejected her and became her enemy - Ended up being killed by him Like, what the fuck? Why did so much bad stuff happen to her, and why does everyone here hate her, other than the obvious: "hurr, yanderes suck". I can hardly imagine what it would be like to put a bullet through a loved one who doesn't even understand why her only wish of being with me is so bad. And those last words with the tormented smile... even before her death all she cares about is Theo, and he still killed her? Christ. This episode left a major sour taste in my mouth. Honestly, I don't even remember the last time an anime made me this upset over a death. Though I definitely would've preferred for Lise to live, I don't blame the outcome being the way it is. 5/5 jomarggg said: Theo why cant you save her she needed much saving and a happy ending too. God this is giving me a headache first she got raped by the stasi and after that they threaten her that they will show pictures of her rape to her big brother and kill her big brother if she dont join them. To save Theo she joined the stasi and and forced to do all nasty shit. She went through hell and darkness but survived knowing that there is light at the end of the dark tunnel she went through which her dream of being with Theodore living somewhere being a happy family but that light faded away when she saw that theo didnt love her back the way she did. In her head it must have went "Why dosent brother love me back i endure all of does god forsaken years to make sure hes safe is everything that i have done all for nothing i cared about him so much that i did all of those things. And now that were together all he cares about is Irisdina im suppose to have a happy ending with him not her were suppose to be a happy family not with her why?" her dream is to be happy with Theo but now in that dream all she can see is Theo and Iris and that took a toll on her and thats when she snaps. 3 years of her life gone to waste doing all kinds of evil she didnt want and she was just a kid.To make sure Theo is alive the person she cares about more than anything in this world but Theo dosent care that much about her all he cares about is this stupid revolution and that girl Irisdina. Sorry for the long and terrible english post that i have made but i just cant stay mad about her she was tortured to like Pham. Her death gave me too much FEEL'S i just have to somehow vent my frustration Exactly this. She deserved a happy ending, or at least something positive to have happened to her. It really irks me how she lived and died like a pathetic dog. Damn did that ending shake me. |
~||Sky of the Night Light||~  |
| "No matter what happens, I'll wipe your ass for you." "I can wipe my own ass." "It's a nice ass." WHAT. & thank goodness Lise is done with, I hated her sm |
| When they said "Lise has nothing left", they mean it. She doesn't even have a future even if she survived this war (it's not like humanity would survive this war anyway). RIP Lise, that was a great episode and final scene. Now, I'm betting the decision to rebel at the moment where Stasi's main batallion is fighting BETA and doing it in the city will bite the rebels in the ass. I know they have no other choice left, but I think they won't going to get West's support this way. Plus, now they are basically assisting Axmann in his own power struggle within Stasi, which probably is the most evil person in this story who caused this whole Lise tragedy from the first place. Future history analysts in this world won't miss this point. Plus, don't forget about the fuckton of BETA right there outside waiting to lynch everything. Everyone who know their true ability won't forget that underestimating them NEVER ends well. Afterall, playing MLA/watching Total Eclipse would give you a clear image about the ultimate ending for this story. That said, I'm going in for a ride. |
zeroyuki92Mar 14, 2016 10:39 PM
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