Anime always better in Japanese?

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Foggle said:
I'm glad someone agrees with me. Thank you for expanding on my post. :D

I'm glad to know that I'm actually finding more people than I thought on this website that don't have to be automatically insulting or act as elitists. You should see my argument with this technical smartass named Drunk_Samurai among what most other people had to say at the piracy thread.

A word from the wise, don't throw your 2 cents into that thread unless you want to get engaged into a never-ending flame-a-thon.

Also what I don't understand is that why people like an anime in Jpanese better just because it's in Japanese, and automatically think dubs will make your ears bleed. I mean I can understand if say the Japanese acting feels more genuine in anime than dubs, but that doesn't mean hearing dub acting of you own native language (if you primarily speak english) is automatically horrendous. Unless say the acting in a dub was to purposely seem annoying like the One Piece 4kids dub.

I think the problem is that people think of Japanese as some sacred language just because it'a heard in an anime with so much of Japanese subculture mentioned like moe or otaku, not that none of it is cool, it's just that it makes one seem ridiculous to glorify the language. That or some people would think that the dialogue of a dub being different from the translations of a fansub is a total turn off.

Jun 11, 2009 7:22 PM

#503

Gin-iro

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You know, this topic can go the other way as well. Japanese dubs of Disney movies are usually not very good. I don't think they take Disney very seriously. :P

So typically the general rule is, original language > dubbed language, but there are always exceptions.

Omae wa mou shindeiru.

Jun 11, 2009 7:33 PM

#504

CakeFighter

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I think a better example of where a dub wins over the Japanese audio is in Baccano.
Since the setting takes place in America, its only necessary to have an English dub. Plus, you can nail down all of the different American accents as well. But with the Japanese audio you can't really get a feel for the setting of the series because the voicing is done in Japanese.

All I'm saying is that another factor you can add is the setting of the story. Japanese audio may be better if the setting is in Japan and the English dub may be better if the setting takes place in America or in some parts of Europe.

Hypeathon said:
That's one of the rare occasions where I will like the original audio better than the dub. Other than that I personally don't understand why people would say that Japanese audio is better than dub when many people don't even understand the language well enough to determine good and bad acting. I'm certainly one of those people even though I learn Japanese here and there.

That is also a very good point, now I'm rethinking before I say anything about the Japanese audio. @_@

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Jun 11, 2009 8:01 PM

#505

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CakeLander said:
I think a better example of where a dub wins over the Japanese audio is in Baccano.
Since the setting takes place in America, its only necessary to have an English dub. Plus, you can nail down all of the different American accents as well. But with the Japanese audio you can't really get a feel for the setting of the series because the voicing is done in Japanese.

All I'm saying is that another factor you can add is the setting of the story. Japanese audio may be better if the setting is in Japan and the English dub may be better if the setting takes place in America or in some parts of Europe.

Hypeathon said:
That's one of the rare occasions where I will like the original audio better than the dub. Other than that I personally don't understand why people would say that Japanese audio is better than dub when many people don't even understand the language well enough to determine good and bad acting. I'm certainly one of those people even though I learn Japanese here and there.

That is also a very good point, now I'm rethinking before I say anything about the Japanese audio. @_@

Ya know I actually never saw Bacanno before, though I have heard of it here and there. Maybe ya might wanna fill me in on what that anime is about sometime.

And yeah, depending on the settiing, some cases a dub where the actors use accents may end up better than Japanese acting because who can honestly understand when a Japanese actor speaks in a British accent? I certainly dont hear that when Rina Satō plays the role of Negi Springfield in Negima.

Also if the subculture involved is where anyone of any region can understand, then any audio can be acceptable. Case in point, One Piece and the whole "nakama" thing. That term in One Piece would make sense if the anime actually took place in Japan. But it doesn't. The anime takes place in the vast seas, a desert kingdom, a civilization above the clouds, among other places. No nakama or otaku thing neccesar if you ask me.

There's also the street gang scene in episode 1 of BECK. I saw the dub first but then heard the Japanese version (very fluent english on the Japanese actor's part btw) ad liked the feel that hostility in the streets was abrewing.

Jun 11, 2009 8:26 PM

#506

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Translucent said:
I always prefer Japanese. It just sounds cooler lol
Also, American pronunciation of Japanese names is funky ;_;

That's one reasonable complaint. Unfortunately, many of the "older" voice actors can't even say words in Japanese properly.

Hmm.. as long as newer generations of voice acting open up to learning foreign languages - such as Japanese - they'll be able to do proper pronunciations.

===

Yet on the flipside, Japanese voice acting cannot mimic languages foreign to its own. We all know what happens when a Japanese speaks English. We have a word for that ... um ... "Engrish". I'd like to hear 'em try... either French or German. Maybe even Spanish.

KyuuALJun 11, 2009 8:30 PM

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Jun 11, 2009 8:47 PM

#507

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Hypeathon said:

Foggle said:

kurodayuchi said:
But if you really are a fan of anime and keep watching a lot of series, youll always find dub kinda weak.

Untrue. I'd consider myself an anime fan and have enjoyed many a series (in both English and Japanese), and the entire argument for or against either the Japanese audio track or any sort dubbing boils down to only two things: personal preference and opinion.

Before whoever arrives and intends to contradict you say, I just wanna say that what you said makes total sense! I mean I always found dubs to be good for one reason or another. Case in point, I found the dub of Lucky Star to be WAY funnier than the original not neccesarily because of the voices (I actually like Nozomi Sasaki playing as Patty better than Patricia Ja Lee), but because the dubbed dialogue is far more hilarious than the translated subtitles.

Misao (subtitles):"Contrary to her looks, Ayano's scary when she's angry."
Misao (dubbed): "She looks all sweet and mellow but piss her off and she'll cut ya man!" And I find that totally hilarious!

I also happen to like the idea of hearing the Yugioh 4kids dub better than the original. Not because of the acting or anything, but there's something about the feel of the original version that you at times can't help but be bored watching it.

That being said, depending on the "feel" of the anime I may like hearing the original version of an anime better than the dubbed no matter how great the dubbing is. I like how in Rurouni Kenshin, all of the dub actors pronounce so many Japanese terms while still maintaining their acting, not to mention I like how Richard Cansino applies a more masculine voice. But I fell in love with Japanese audio as soon as I heard it because it gave a more authentic, Japanese feel to the Meiji era setting of the show.

That's one of the rare occasions where I will like the original audio better than the dub. Other than that I personally don't understand why people would say that Japanese audio is better than dub when many people don't even understand the language well enough to determine good and bad acting. I'm certainly one of those people even though I learn Japanese here and there.

But it's as you said, no mater how you slice it, the basis is preference.

... Okay, the part with you agreeing with the last guy I can understand. But Lucky Star's dub was painful and bad.

CakeLander said:

Since the setting takes place in America, its only necessary to have an English dub.

Stupidest fucking thing I've read all day. Seriously.

KyuuA4 said:

Yet on the flipside, Japanese voice acting cannot mimic languages foreign to its own. We all know what happens when a Japanese speaks English. We have a word for that ... um ... "Engrish". I'd like to hear 'em try... either French or German. Maybe even Spanish.

Asuka tried to speak German at one point in Evangelion if you're still interested.

King_KenshiroJun 11, 2009 8:51 PM

Jun 11, 2009 8:52 PM

#508

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Foggle said:

kurodayuchi said:
But if you really are a fan of anime and keep watching a lot of series, youll always find dub kinda weak.

Untrue. I'd consider myself an anime fan and have enjoyed many a series (in both English and Japanese), and the entire argument for or against either the Japanese audio track or any sort dubbing boils down to only two things: personal preference and opinion.

This argument was far far harsher 15+ years ago... meaning most of the people of this forum weren't born yet or were in diapers.

In the VHS days -- pre-DVD -- this issue was a money issue. People literally had to choose which VHS anime to buy based on the language. Even worse, if people wanted "both" - they had to pay "double" as the price of a English and Japanese VHS were the same (or similar) price.

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Jun 11, 2009 8:53 PM

#509

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King_Kenshiro said:
Asuka tried to speak German at one point in Evangelion if you're still interested.

Hmm... true. However, I watched that series in English and never really bothered with it in Japanese. Per my last post, I was watching this series on VHS - and yes - in English.

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Jun 11, 2009 9:04 PM

#510

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KyuuA4 said:

This argument was far far harsher 15+ years ago... meaning most of the people of this forum weren't born yet or were in diapers.

IIRC I did not wear diapers when I was three. I know this because I clearly remember flushing the toilet and then running away as the noise scared me.

KyuuA4 said:
Hmm... true. However, I watched that series in English and never really bothered with it in Japanese. Per my last post, I was watching this series on VHS - and yes - in English.

I'll sound alot younger than I'd like to right now, but the only anime I ever watched on VHS were Final Fantasy: Legend of the Crystals and the first movie in the trilogy of MSG compilation movies. I used to just watch stuff on TV before I learned to internet.

Jun 11, 2009 9:13 PM

#511

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King_Kenshiro said:

Hypeathon said:

Foggle said:

kurodayuchi said:
But if you really are a fan of anime and keep watching a lot of series, youll always find dub kinda weak.

Untrue. I'd consider myself an anime fan and have enjoyed many a series (in both English and Japanese), and the entire argument for or against either the Japanese audio track or any sort dubbing boils down to only two things: personal preference and opinion.

Before whoever arrives and intends to contradict you say, I just wanna say that what you said makes total sense! I mean I always found dubs to be good for one reason or another. Case in point, I found the dub of Lucky Star to be WAY funnier than the original not neccesarily because of the voices (I actually like Nozomi Sasaki playing as Patty better than Patricia Ja Lee), but because the dubbed dialogue is far more hilarious than the translated subtitles.

Misao (subtitles):"Contrary to her looks, Ayano's scary when she's angry."
Misao (dubbed): "She looks all sweet and mellow but piss her off and she'll cut ya man!" And I find that totally hilarious!

I also happen to like the idea of hearing the Yugioh 4kids dub better than the original. Not because of the acting or anything, but there's something about the feel of the original version that you at times can't help but be bored watching it.

That being said, depending on the "feel" of the anime I may like hearing the original version of an anime better than the dubbed no matter how great the dubbing is. I like how in Rurouni Kenshin, all of the dub actors pronounce so many Japanese terms while still maintaining their acting, not to mention I like how Richard Cansino applies a more masculine voice. But I fell in love with Japanese audio as soon as I heard it because it gave a more authentic, Japanese feel to the Meiji era setting of the show.

That's one of the rare occasions where I will like the original audio better than the dub. Other than that I personally don't understand why people would say that Japanese audio is better than dub when many people don't even understand the language well enough to determine good and bad acting. I'm certainly one of those people even though I learn Japanese here and there.

But it's as you said, no mater how you slice it, the basis is preference.

... Okay, the part with you agreeing with the last guy I can understand. But Lucky Star's dub was painful and bad.

CakeLander said:

Since the setting takes place in America, its only necessary to have an English dub.

Stupidest fucking thing I've read all day. Seriously.

Asuka tried to speak German at one point in Evangelion if you're still interested.

Your point dude? Disagree with me if you like, I don't really care. I found the dub of Lucky Star awesome because of the dialogue and that's that. You're not really gonna change my opinion towards the dub, there's no denying that. I could really care less if you found the dub "painful and bad."

Jun 11, 2009 9:14 PM

#512

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To anyone who says -- "anime is better in the original language"... etc.

Is MANGA better in the original language?

XD

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Jun 11, 2009 9:16 PM

#513

PunishedHametsu

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I usually try watching one episode in Japanese and then another one in English, then I just roll with whichever set of voices I like more.

KyuuA4 said:

King_Kenshiro said:
Asuka tried to speak German at one point in Evangelion if you're still interested.

Hmm... true. However, I watched that series in English and never really bothered with it in Japanese. Per my last post, I was watching this series on VHS - and yes - in English.

That is a good point. Would have definitely made it a lot harder to please everyone. What I normally do would not have worked, considering I'd have to pay double. In that case, I suppose it'd just be safer to go with the Japanese voices unless you had prior experience with the dubbing.

Jun 11, 2009 9:17 PM

#514

Gin-iro

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Hmm, I dunno. It looks kinda better with the Japanese text in the up-down format. :P

Especially
Since the En-
glish version
has to be bro-
ken up like this

Omae wa mou shindeiru.

Jun 11, 2009 9:17 PM

#515

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Hypeathon said:

Your point dude? Disagree with me if you like, I don't really care. I found the dub of Lucky Star awesome because of the dialogue and that's that. You're not really gonna change my opinion towards the dub, there's no denying that. I could really care less if you found the dub "painful and bad."

Way to fuck shit up in your post. lern2quote

KyuuA4 said:
To anyone who says -- "anime is better in the original language"... etc.

Is MANGA better in the original language?

XD

Probably, yes. Neither the licensing companies nor most scanlators know how to do shit right.

Jun 11, 2009 9:18 PM

#516

PunishedHametsu

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937

KyuuA4 said:
To anyone who says -- "anime is better in the original language"... etc.

Is MANGA better in the original language?

XD

But of course! You just can't express language so eloquently without the beautiful Japanese characters.

Jun 11, 2009 9:22 PM

#517

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King_Kenshiro said:
Way to fuck shit up in your post. lern2quote

Again, your point?

Jun 11, 2009 10:48 PM

#518

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Hypeathon said:

King_Kenshiro said:
Way to fuck shit up in your post. lern2quote

Again, your point?

My point is you're a newfag dickhole. gtfo

Jun 12, 2009 2:05 AM

#519

Noblesse_Oblige

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Always will be......anime in english sucks....well except DBZ that one was okay i guess

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Jun 12, 2009 2:49 AM

#520

YukiForslund

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KyuuA4 said:
To anyone who says -- "anime is better in the original language"... etc.

Is MANGA better in the original language?

XD

what a jump from the main discussion, Manga and anime.. Learning the kanji is the hardest part about Japanese. Manga is probly better when there is japanese charters but all dont have time to spend years on study to learn to read it in original language. what a stupid question KyuuA4 .

Jun 12, 2009 4:47 AM

#521

Boursk

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Guys (mostly King_Kenshiro), it's cool if you want to discuss things, but keep it civil. Don't resort to ad hominem. If you've got something constructive to say, go ahead and make a heated debate, but there's no need to insult people for their opinion or just to say someone's wrong.

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Jun 12, 2009 5:12 AM

#522

V3gas

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ITT: Walls of insulting text.

Jun 12, 2009 12:10 PM

#523

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Boursk said:
Guys (mostly King_Kenshiro), it's cool if you want to discuss things, but keep it civil. Don't resort to ad hominem. If you've got something constructive to say, go ahead and make a heated debate, but there's no need to insult people for their opinion or just to say someone's wrong.

Glad to know there are some moderators on this site that get the idea. ^__^

Jun 12, 2009 3:19 PM

#524

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Again, you're on an anime website. We're all fucking nerds, get the hell out.

Jun 12, 2009 3:30 PM

#525

CakeFighter

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Noblesse_Oblige said:
Always will be......anime in english sucks....well except DBZ that one was okay i guess

Yeah, I like the dub for DBZ too. They got alot of funny sounding voices in there so it was pretty funny.

King_Kenshiro said:
Again, you're on an anime website. We're all fucking nerds, get the hell out.

What's with all the hate man?

[Your Sig, But With Cake.]

Jun 12, 2009 4:14 PM

#526

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CakeLander said:

What's with all the hate man?

Sorry bro <3

Jun 12, 2009 6:11 PM

#527

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Azoga said:

KyuuA4 said:
To anyone who says -- "anime is better in the original language"... etc.

Is MANGA better in the original language?

XD

what a jump from the main discussion, Manga and anime.. Learning the kanji is the hardest part about Japanese. Manga is probly better when there is japanese charters but all dont have time to spend years on study to learn to read it in original language. what a stupid question KyuuA4 .

Y'totally missed the point why I even bothered asking that question:

The "original language" answer is nothing more than an excuse or a show of complete ignorance.

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Jun 12, 2009 7:05 PM

#528

alex-012

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Woah, some pretty hostile guys on here ^_^

IMO, anime is much better when it is in Japanese and has been subbed, with the exception of afro samurai because Samuel L. is a legend :3

Jun 12, 2009 7:14 PM

#529

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alex-012 said:
Woah, some pretty hostile guys on here ^_^

IMO, anime is much better when it is in Japanese and has been subbed, with the exception of afro samurai because Samuel L. is a legend :3

And because Afro Samurai wasn't dubbed in japanese ever, lol

And I'm the only hostile guy in here tbqh. Always fun to see how others react.

Jun 12, 2009 7:22 PM

#530

alex-012

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King_Kenshiro said:

alex-012 said:
Woah, some pretty hostile guys on here ^_^

IMO, anime is much better when it is in Japanese and has been subbed, with the exception of afro samurai because Samuel L. is a legend :3

And because Afro Samurai wasn't dubbed in japanese ever, lol

And I'm the only hostile guy in here tbqh. Always fun to see how others react.

But mainly because he is a legend... O_o

Jun 12, 2009 7:31 PM

#531

Karubi

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Oct 2008

1560

IMO the only animes to have good eng voice acting are Ghost in Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Panic and Ah My Goddess. Everything else is either blad or just plain awful. Most english voice actors don't put any emotion or feeling into their roll, it seems lifeless. the japanese, however, do a much better job. Azumanga Daioh probably had some of the worst english voice acting ive ever heard in my life, osaka's VA was awful.

Jun 12, 2009 8:14 PM

#532

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alex-012 said:
Samuel L. is a legend :3

To think -- he became on film what most of us Geeks here can dream of.

Let's see... he was:

* A Jedi
* An anime character
* A comic book hero
* A meme

And so on...

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Jun 12, 2009 9:01 PM

#533

vivavoce

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I personally prefer Japanese over English when it comes to Anime, I find the dubs to just sound terrible most of the time. The horrid voice acting usually distracts me from the actual show and then I don't appreciate it as much. The only exception is Vic Mignogna, because he's great.

Jun 12, 2009 9:20 PM

#534

CakeFighter

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vivavoce said:

I personally prefer Japanese over English when it comes to Anime, I find the dubs to just sound terrible most of the time. The horrid voice acting usually distracts me from the actual show and then I don't appreciate it as much. The only exception is Vic Mignogna, because he's great.

What about Mary Elizabeth McGlynn? I loved her voice as the Major In Ghost in the shell.

There are more English voice actors with good voice talent you know.

[Your Sig, But With Cake.]

Jun 12, 2009 10:07 PM

#535

http://microcuba.blogspot.com/

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CakeLander said:

vivavoce said:

I personally prefer Japanese over English when it comes to Anime, I find the dubs to just sound terrible most of the time. The horrid voice acting usually distracts me from the actual show and then I don't appreciate it as much. The only exception is Vic Mignogna, because he's great.

What about Mary Elizabeth McGlynn? I loved her voice as the Major In Ghost in the shell.

There are more English voice actors with good voice talent you know.

Agreed, but they're often miscast.

Jun 13, 2009 12:38 AM

#536

Mr_Panda

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vivavoce said:

The only exception is Vic Mignogna, because he's great.

Ooooh! My poor vocal cords!

I wonder how this discussion has managed to go this long. Then again, the topic itself was asking for a flaming wall of text.

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Jun 14, 2009 1:01 PM

#537

hypertreb

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That was dubbed by disney. so no. JP version

Jun 14, 2009 1:45 PM

#538

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hypertreb said:
That was dubbed by disney. so no. JP version

What's this now?

Jun 16, 2009 11:09 PM

#539

smileggd

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of course. except i need subtitles. but i can read so thats okay

(\___/)
(="."=)
(")__(")

Jun 16, 2009 11:24 PM

#540

ShinobiCJ

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Mar 2009

656

Japanese version is alot better..
Like for example they cut out good parts in naruto (english version) which i watched once on Cartoon Network with my brother and it was odd..Plus their english voices sounds weird to me. now if it was DBZ in english then it would be diffrent because im used to their voices ever since i was little. but usually Japanese > English Version. >:3

Jun 17, 2009 2:44 AM

#541

sailorascella

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Jun 2009

38

I prefer Japanese anime! The Finnish dubs are so embarrassing. A few years ago, when I watched Sailor Moon with my sister in Oulu, the dubs were in Swedish! I think I loved it because it was Swedish - but if heard it again, I'd probably hate it! There is one exception - Dragonball Z. I think the English dubs are quite good.

Jun 17, 2009 8:15 AM

#542

HydraA

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Sep 2008

346

Original is always the best. This is of course not limited to Anime only.

Jun 17, 2009 12:07 PM

#543

Firelord76

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HydraA said:
Original is always the best. This is of course not limited to Anime only.

QFT.

There are a lot of anime shows and cartoons that got dubbed here. I have yet to find any that I didn't enjoy in their original version more than the dubbed version.

I used to watch Disney movies dubbed in Dutch (because hardly any movie theater had the original version). That all changed when I got to see both version of Aladdin. From then on, I never wanted to hear another dub for the rest of my life and even though I've seen a few shows that were dubbed since then (mostly coz I had no alternative), my opinion overall still stands, especially when you hear one guy voice as much as 10 different characters (who, in the original, probably would have been voiced by no less than two different people) or when one character's voice sounds nothing like he should sound like.

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Jun 17, 2009 12:52 PM

#544

Avoidea

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AO968 said:

HydraA said:
Original is always the best. This is of course not limited to Anime only.

QFT.

There are a lot of anime shows and cartoons that got dubbed here. I have yet to find any that I didn't enjoy in their original version more than the dubbed version.

I used to watch Disney movies dubbed in Dutch (because hardly any movie theater had the original version). That all changed when I got to see both version of Aladdin. From then on, I never wanted to hear another dub for the rest of my life and even though I've seen a few shows that were dubbed since then (mostly coz I had no alternative), my opinion overall still stands, especially when you hear one guy voice as much as 10 different characters (who, in the original, probably would have been voiced by no less than two different people) or when one character's voice sounds nothing like he should sound like.

About one person not voicing multiple characters in the original isn't really true, especially in US animated series. It's very normal to have one person do multiple voices and one example would be Billy West who does probably way much more than 10 voices in the show Futurama and other series.

Jun 19, 2009 9:03 AM

#545

Skullthrone

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Nov 2008

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I compared my german dubbed Dragonball Z episodes with the subbed Dragonball Kai episodes, that's the only anime where I prefer the dubbed version.

Jun 19, 2009 1:41 PM

#546

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Capellabun said:

AO968 said:

HydraA said:
Original is always the best. This is of course not limited to Anime only.

QFT.

There are a lot of anime shows and cartoons that got dubbed here. I have yet to find any that I didn't enjoy in their original version more than the dubbed version.

I used to watch Disney movies dubbed in Dutch (because hardly any movie theater had the original version). That all changed when I got to see both version of Aladdin. From then on, I never wanted to hear another dub for the rest of my life and even though I've seen a few shows that were dubbed since then (mostly coz I had no alternative), my opinion overall still stands, especially when you hear one guy voice as much as 10 different characters (who, in the original, probably would have been voiced by no less than two different people) or when one character's voice sounds nothing like he should sound like.

About one person not voicing multiple characters in the original isn't really true, especially in US animated series. It's very normal to have one person do multiple voices and one example would be Billy West who does probably way much more than 10 voices in the show Futurama and other series.

Or Seth MacFarlane, who does Peter, Stewie, Brian, Quagmire and a bunch of other characters from Family Guy. Or Mel Blanc, who did all of the Looney Tunes characters at one point. Or Dave Wittenberg who did all of the Trailmon from Digimon Frontier.

Jun 19, 2009 1:59 PM

#547

PokoPoko

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I prefer Japanese voices most of the time with the exception of some Studio Ghibli films that have cool dubs.

I think some anime series have also come close to getting me to switch audio tracks ( i must waste like 20mins each series trying out both tracks until i settle on one) but for the most part i like the Japanese voice artists better. It also helps me learn the language.

Jun 19, 2009 2:51 PM

#548

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121

Mikerdupes said:
Ive watched Cowboy Bebop both dubbed and subbed and enjoyed the dubs more, they just all seemed to sound more natural (I watched it subbed first)

In Gurren Lagann I enjoyed the dubbed voices even though they sounded kinda cheesy, it felt like it fit the series well.

And yea pretty much everything else is better subbed. xP

Worst dubs ive heard were the Azumanga dubs, TEXAN ACCENT OSAKA ISNT RIGHT.

Gurren Lagann's dub took all the emotion out of it. Sure, there was that "EAT THIS! NEVARRRRRRRRRRRRRR!" in the last episode, but besides that, everything in the japanese version was done better.

Jun 19, 2009 2:58 PM

#549

Offline

Aug 2008

16084

Mikerdupes said:
Worst dubs ive heard were the Azumanga dubs, TEXAN ACCENT OSAKA ISNT RIGHT.

That's just to emphasize the fact that she HAS an accent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhZ2lyKq8xs

There's nothing wrong about that.

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RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it.

Jun 19, 2009 3:56 PM

#550