InsertPriestHere said: I thought it was confirmed somewhere he didn't use UBW? Yes it was, gotta wait for core to sourcepull though. |
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| Berserker should be able to catch him before Archer completes the chant as well.So what gives? Also Nasu confirmed that Archer used K&B against Berserker.So yeah he can at least defend against him while trying to pull out 6 BPs. Fate/complete material II: Character material - Weapons: Kanshou & Bakuya Overedge, p.127 User: Archer A version of Kanshou & Bakuya used by Archer in the undescribed battle against Berserker in Fate route. Using reinforcement magecraft, the blades have been completely transformed into long swords. And he has to fire only one BP at Berserker.Then he can charge the next one while Berserker "resurrects".Repeat. |
ssjokgDec 10, 2014 8:55 AM
| Is it confirmed somewhere that he didn't use it in clear words? I've searched before but never found anything. No Archer does have abilities which can stall berserker before he completes his chant. And maybe even kill him once during that. Also, since we never got to see the fight, ignorance from Illya can be a factor as well. Getting a confirmation that Archer used K&B against berserker confirms what? Him pulling them out and them being of no use would also count as 'using them'. However with upgraded versions, he can probably do better when it comes to 'survival' since the difference between the strength still remains too big. Dragon_Slayer_X said: Stating a Fact from the Source Material =/= Fanboy label..............okay(?) Man the Denial Complex is annoying. Stop putting "fanboy" excuse to cover up your own issue. Oh btw Archer's Caladbolg II could kill Berserker 2-3 times, that's why he blocked. So he doesn't need to fire 6 BPs to give Berserker a run for his money. Also you are seriously underestimating Archers sword skills, he may not be as strong as Saber or Berseker, but he can hold his own pretty well. Do you have the source for the bolded parts? It might be true if that is the case, else it isn't. |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 9:08 AM
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| @Dragon Each death was from a different weapon ,so 6 different BPs. @Litzbar A chant is something that a magus uses in order to prepare themselves.A fight with Berserker wouldn't give him a chance to focus for nearly a Ten count. What is more luckily?Trying to find a way to activate UBW or fire BP "stun" Herc and then spam another 5 BPs? Honestly even inside UBW a sword spam wouldnt do anything against Herc it wouldnt even be a distraction thanks to Mind of Eye. |
| I thought UBW chant didn't have to be said consecutively and that it could be broken up over time. Shirou describes it as a suggestion to change himself and the words that will "connect Shirou Emiya." Their chants differ slightly due to the different experiences in their respective lives. The lines of the incantation can be said at any time without requiring preparation, and Archer is able to stop between lines to speak and then resume without issue. -http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works Not that the wiki has to be correct. |
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| Like I said, ignorance from Illya can also be a factor since she has shown to have it. Especially when it comes to Archer. Like you urself said, it is difficult even inside UBW where he can do spam sword better, so why wouldn't he go the way which would be not as difficult as the other one. Though not just stun, his BP is strong enough to kill berserker once. He would get time to activate UBW. |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 9:22 AM
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nocorras said: I thought UBW chant didn't have to be said consecutively and that it could be broken up over time. Shirou describes it as a suggestion to change himself and the words that will "connect Shirou Emiya." Their chants differ slightly due to the different experiences in their respective lives. The lines of the incantation can be said at any time without requiring preparation, and Archer is able to stop between lines to speak and then resume without issue. -http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works Not that the wiki has to be correct. All spell chants are suggestions at manipulating energy. Archer needs to only say one line but he did not use it in that fight. |
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| Ignorance when it comes to RMs?Yeah I forgot that Iya is below Waver as a magus. When I say stun I mean the time Herc needs to revive.But he doesnt need it.Besides for me it makes no sense to not have at least 12 A(now B) rank NPs inside UBW.If he had used UBW he should have been able to kill him for good. |
| No, ignorance Before him using UBW. Since she wouldn't have any idea of Archer's abilities at that point of time and would most likely look down on the nameless hero. It's not that he would be able to kill him for good if he uses UBW, it's that he can't do it six times without using it. That "Stun" would just require a lot of effort too since herc wouldn't be focused on any other opponent this time around and would be able to fight Archer better while closing in on him which wasn't the case before. Not endangering himself again to a higher degree and resorting to UBW seems more likely than not using it. I don't see what the problem is with him having 6 A ranks inside UBW when he can use it outside it. |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 9:38 AM
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| We arent in the same line of thought here.At any point. I mean she would have noticed it if he had used it.She was impressed by one BP in UBW.A RM would not only explain(for her) Archer's feat of killing Herc 6 times but would also make her even more mad because, to her, he is a nobody. I see no problem in preparing one BP while evading Herc but I see a lot with activating UBW while doing the same. I see a problem with having ONLY 6 A rank NPs. |
| Core, where art thou? |
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| Well I agree. Yes that's right and wrong too considering how highly he thinks of berserker compared to Archer. Even in UBW just her getting an interest in Archer doesn't automatically mean that she started expecting from Archer to be able to kill her herc in a straight fight. No there's no problem with that, if you are going for a less dangerous route, might as well endanger yourself once instead of multiple times. Having mutiple A NPs is good but berserker isn't just gonna sit around while he would use them. With his much superior agility and battle continuation, it makes sense for berserker to reach him and for Archer to kill him six times since he would be using UBW during that. This feat he can't do when he is outside UBW with berserker charging on him. - Seems like a source on such an important matter is out there which btw happens to be highly elusive. I think I'll wait for it as of now, seems unlikely but yeah. :) |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 10:14 AM
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| Would Archer really have enough mana to activate UBW long enough to use 6 BPs? |
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| I don't see the problem with Archer killing Berserker 6 times without UBW; after all, all what UBW does when deployed is reproduction of all weapons stored inside it, allowing Archer to use them immediately and without initial manacost for swords - in other words, removes projection time as all swords are already created. Considering Berserker's stats, I have some doubts of Archer being able to find time to chant UBW at all between defense and firing Broken Phantasms. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
LitzSabr said: Having mutiple A NPs is good but berserker isn't just gonna sit around while he would use them. With his much superior agility and battle continuation, it makes sense for him to reach him and for Archer to kill him six times since he would be using UBW during that. This feat he can't do when he is outside UBW with berserker charging on him. His superior agility and battle continuation didnt stop Shirou from projecting Caliburn and cutting his arm or projecting again and stabbing him.Holding Rin shouldnt be a problem in doing that. And as I said Archer only needs to hit him with one BP and then Herc will be a sitting target killed upon revival. |
HentaiPriest said: LitzSabr said: Having mutiple A NPs is good but berserker isn't just gonna sit around while he would use them. With his much superior agility and battle continuation, it makes sense for him to reach him and for Archer to kill him six times since he would be using UBW during that. This feat he can't do when he is outside UBW with berserker charging on him. His superior agility and battle continuation didnt stop Shirou from projecting Caliburn and cutting his arm or projecting again and stabbing him.Holding Rin shouldnt be a problem in doing that. And as I said Archer only needs to hit him with one BP and then Herc will be a sitting target killed upon revival. He wasn't even taking him seriously during the time he cut his arm. Shirou got taken down in a matter of seconds after that and saber had to come in to save him and use the sword. Berserker has nothing to prove here when it comes to shirou. Like it's that easy especially when you have berserker upon you who have literally shit stats compared to his. Herc only needs to slash him once to kill him(is that how we do it?) |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 11:06 AM
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| Eye of the Mind (False).If Shirou could somehow corner him with freaking Caliburn that should set alarms off in Herc's head, then Archer can as well. Assassin has basically the same shit stats as Archer and he denied entry to Berserker.Sure Archer doesnt have the sword skills of Sasaki but he can defend and parry for a while. |
HentaiPriest said: Eye of the Mind (False).If Shirou could somehow corner him with freaking Caliburn that should set alarms off in Herc's head, then Archer can as well. Assassin has basically the same shit stats as Archer and he denied entry to Berserker.Sure Archer doesnt have the sword skills of Sasaki but he can defend and parry for a while. How exactly did Shirou cornered freaking berserker? When berserker went mad on his arm, shirou was easily pushed back even with his one arm(Before saber came in) >Assassin has better combat skills than archer. >We never got to see the fight between assassin and berserker. Illya might as well hve left that too. And I thought the saber wank was real. u_u |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 11:33 AM
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| Well why don't we wait for Core to see if there's confirmation that he used it or not? |
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| Is Caliburn EX-rank? Otherwise Shirou could not have cut Berserker, because projection reduced the rank by one, i.e. would go EX -> A. |
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Grey-Zone said: Is Caliburn EX-rank? Otherwise Shirou could not have cut Berserker, because projection reduced the rank by one, i.e. would go EX -> A. Does not matter with caliburn. |
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LitzSabr said: HentaiPriest said: Eye of the Mind (False).If Shirou could somehow corner him with freaking Caliburn that should set alarms off in Herc's head, then Archer can as well. Assassin has basically the same shit stats as Archer and he denied entry to Berserker.Sure Archer doesnt have the sword skills of Sasaki but he can defend and parry for a while. How exactly did Shirou cornered freaking berserker? When berserker went mad on his arm, shirou was easily pushed back even with his one arm(Before saber came in) >Assassin has better combat skills than archer. >We never got to see the fight between assassin and berserker. Illya might as well have left that too. And I thought the saber wank was real. u_u When he cut his arm.Herc should have been able to sense the danger and deal with him.Same with when Saber came and helped.As far as I know Calburn>>>>>>Caladbolg II.But Herc didnt do anything. >Isnt that what I said? >The narration clearly states that Sasaki drove them off. You are one of those that wank about saber. As for any source about UBW activation.I dont think that exists. |
| Oh damn, I started some shit. IMO y'all kinda missing the point that Archer killing BERSERKER of all Servants six times WITH UBW is still pro as fuck. Archer is a badass and among the stronger servants, but I don't think he's strong enough to kill Berserker six times without even using his Noble Phantasm. Even though Saber was nerfed, she was still supposed to be the strongest Servant, but even she couldn't pull that off. |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
| Saber is supposed to be strongest class.She is.But she isnt the Strongest Servant. 10 years later people still cant tell the difference.... And Archer is weak-mid class.It's his style and UBW(not RM) that give him chances. |
WrongPriest said: And get you hyped as fuck when at the beginning of UBW you stop Saber from injuring him which means you'll get to see him in action.I'm mean it's not unexplainable but the whole idea is meant to ignite the imagination anyway. Oh how I wish I never watched DEEN 2006 or the 2010 movie and started with the VN T_T |
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| Taken from the VN ( day 11 fate route Archer and Berserker "Dawn in the ruins") First, both his legs are almost melted Second, there is a clear mark of a cut on his neck Third,his arm is barely hanging from his elbow Fourth, he is slashed from his shoulder to his groin Fifth, a large amount of blood is gushing from his chest Sixth, his internal organs can be seen from his stomach Berserker does not move. It is only natural, it is a corpse no matter how one looks at it. I think from this you can already get a vague idea how Archer killed Berserker 6 times on top of that it is also stated in the same scene that each kill was done through a different method. |
Raziel1991Dec 10, 2014 12:20 PM
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HentaiPriest said: When he cut his arm.Herc should have been able to sense the danger and deal with him.Same with when Saber came and helped.As far as I know Calburn>>>>>>Caladbolg II.But Herc didnt do anything. >Isnt that what I said? >The narration clearly states that Sasaki drove them off. You are one of those that wank about saber. As for any source about UBW activation.I dont think that exists. Herc did do something. Saber interfered before herc could land the finishing blow on shirou. Ofc they didn't go in because of sasaki, that is still open to many interpretations and you can't just think sasaki overwhelmed berserker to the point where he had to leave. Sasaki probably drove them off by boring the fk out of Illya. And you are wanking Archer. I know her limitations and have one solid place for her within the servants by abilities and no situational interfences. Saying Archer did all that without UBW isn't much different than saying Saber with Avalon is stronger than Gilgamesh. I don't care about that unless someone who claims it to be there shows it. |
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HentaiPriest said: Saber is supposed to be strongest class.She is.But she isnt the Strongest Servant. 10 years later people still cant tell the difference.... And Archer is weak-mid class.It's his style and UBW(not RM) that give him chances. Yep Abilities > stats. Saber class has "Stat advantage" but that does not mean much. Archer has shitty stats but his adaptability, thinking and powerset is what makes him the more dangerous and formidable opponent. |
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CookingPriest said: HentaiPriest said: Saber is supposed to be strongest class.She is.But she isnt the Strongest Servant. 10 years later people still cant tell the difference.... And Archer is weak-mid class.It's his style and UBW(not RM) that give him chances. Yep Abilities > stats. Saber class has "Stat advantage" but that does not mean much. Archer has shitty stats but his adaptability, thinking and powerset is what makes him the more dangerous and formidable opponent. Not to mention "Eye of the Mind (True): B" |
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Raziel1991 said: That doesnt prove anything.Taken from the VN ( day 11 fate route Archer and Berserker "Dawn in the ruins") First, both his legs are almost melted Second, there is a clear mark of a cut on his neck Third,his arm is barely hanging from his elbow Fourth, he is slashed from his shoulder to his groin Fifth, a large amount of blood of blood is gushing from his chest Sixth, his internal organs can be seen from his stomach Berserker does not move. It is only natural, it is a corpse no matter how one looks at it. I think from this you can already get a vague idea how Archer killed Berserker 6 times on top of that it is also stated in the same scene that each kill was done through a different method. LitzSabr said: HentaiPriest said: When he cut his arm.Herc should have been able to sense the danger and deal with him.Same with when Saber came and helped.As far as I know Calburn>>>>>>Caladbolg II.But Herc didnt do anything. >Isnt that what I said? >The narration clearly states that Sasaki drove them off. You are one of those that wank about saber. As for any source about UBW activation.I dont think that exists. Herc did do something. Saber interfered before herc could land the finishing blow on shirou. Ofc they didn't go in because of sasaki, that is still open to many interpretations and you can't just think sasaki overwhelmed berserker to the point where he had to leave. Sasaki probably drove them off by boring the fk out of Illya. And you are wanking Archer. I know her limitations and have one solid place for her within the servants by abilities and no situational interfences. Saying Archer did all that without UBW isn't much different than saying Saber with Avalon is stronger than Gilgamesh. I don't care about that unless someone who claims it to be there shows it. You are grasping on straws.The point is that Shirou HURT Herc without Saber and Herc could do nothing about it. So Sasaki, as the VN states, used his skill WITH HIS SHIT STATS and hold back Herc till Ilya got bored and left.Soooo what is different from what I said? So Shirou can attack Herc and hurt him, without Herc doing anything to him, although he should be able to, but Archer cant?Okay... |
| So people are gonna question a battle when archer had to blackmail his opponent in not using her NP so that he won't die? Only chance archer has in this battle is if he is on a 40 floor high building and saber below with no cover with shirou. before he gets cuts. But no wank without that u_u HentaiPriest said: You are grasping on straws.The point is that Shirou HURT Herc without Saber and Herc could do nothing about it. So Sasaki, as the VN states, used his skill WITH HIS SHIT STATS and hold back Herc till Ilya got bored and left.Soooo what is different from what I said? So Shirou can attack Herc and hurt him, without Herc doing anything to him, although he should be able to, but Archer cant?Okay... The answer is so clear, how is that now grasping on straws. Herc never really took shirou seriously until after he cut his arm. Lel, so we're gonna decide it on something which wasn't even shown xd. Yes probably and why aren't you understanding it? He couldn't do nothing to berserker, there isn't much fun in fighting a weak(comparatively) opponent. Read the first line. If berserker would start not giving archer much attention, then Archer would have a chance. -x-x- |
SNSConnectionDec 10, 2014 12:26 PM
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| What? Do you know how Eye of the Mind (False) works?Clearly not. So you ignore the VN narration. If Herc didnt pay attention to a single sword that could kill him as many times as Archer did because of his Eye of the Mind (False) then yeah Archer has many chances. |
| Eye of the Mind (True) > Eye of the Mind (False) |
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Grey-Zone said: Different kinds.False can actually be used by Berserkers.Eye of the Mind (True) > Eye of the Mind (False) |
HentaiPriest said: Grey-Zone said: Different kinds.False can actually be used by Berserkers.Eye of the Mind (True) > Eye of the Mind (False) False is mainly an ability that helps at defending and possibly counter-attacking (seems a bit similar to Saber's "instinct"), but True also helps at taking the initiative. |
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HentaiPriest said: What? Do you know how Eye of the Mind (False) works?Clearly not. So you ignore the VN narration. If Herc didnt pay attention to a single sword that could kill him as many times as Archer did because of his Eye of the Mind (False) then yeah Archer has many chances. Wasn't for you. Assassin>Berserker confirmed. Just because someone interpreted an ambiguous thing however they liked in the VN to support what they want, even if its not logical. Archer might be able to make one in either case at most. The fact with shirou either way doesn't change that berserker did nothing for whatever reasons. If the answer is that he couldn't then he shouldn't have been able to do it afterwards either. |
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| You call defending a place an "ambiguous thing"? The rest doesnt make sense.Well neither discrediting a VN line does but anyway. |
| We never got to see what exactly happened there. It wouldn't be wrong even if Illya left on his own. We would still say that Assassin defended the place just the situation was different.. she left of boredom or maybe dissapointed (Anything but not because assassin overwhelmed berserker which isn't possible considering all abilities and NP of herc.). It does, apply your situation of EOM in it. Either berserker himself didn't do it or he couldn't do anything to stop shirou(which I already countered). Both ways still lead to one conclusion that shirou got easily taken down(with one arm berserker) when berserker attacked him. |
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| Wasn't it mentioned in a side material that Assassin had Caster's help in defending against Berserker? |
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| Yup, Assassin single-handedly repelled everyone except Berserker, for whom he needed Caster's help to weigh Berserker's body down + high ground advantage. That says both how powerful Berserker is... and how amazing is Assassin. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
Grey-Zone said: Wasn't it mentioned in a side material that Assassin had Caster's help in defending against Berserker? Well that would end this part of argument of comparing archer against herc with assassin against herc, since Assassin in that case would've been packing much more force(terrain advantage+caster+himself). |
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| How on earth did they clean up the mess at the temple with berserker vs assassin though. I just see the stairs crumbling underneath berseker's weight. |
| The church has a construction company subsidiary, along with a gas company. |
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LitzSabr said: It does, apply your situation of EOM in it. Either berserker himself didn't do it or he couldn't do anything to stop shirou(which I already countered). Both ways still lead to one conclusion that shirou got easily taken down(with one arm berserker) when berserker attacked him. This makes no sense. |
| What on earth is even happening in here anymore? Are we fighting about how Archer kills Berserker? |
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HentaiPriest said: This makes no sense. You make a question on shirou damaging berserker (neglecting Berserker's ignorance) and then saying it for Archer and now this. Okay mate, thats enough for now I guess. |
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ANGRY2011 said: What on earth is even happening in here anymore? Are we fighting about how Archer kills Berserker? Litzaber baiting(or genuinely believing Saber is strongest pokemon) |
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