| I would prefer HF Kirei's death even if I wasn't his fan. It kinda reminded me to Gilgamesh's end in the Fate route. |
 |
HeisenPriest said: I would prefer HF Kirei's death even if I wasn't his fan. It kinda reminded me to Gilgamesh's end in the Fate route. Which I also thought of as fanpandering. |
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CookingPriest said: HeisenPriest said: I would prefer HF Kirei's death even if I wasn't his fan. It kinda reminded me to Gilgamesh's end in the Fate route. Which I also thought of as fanpandering. Again, how could it even be fanpandering if there is no way for him to have fans at this point? You and your damn buzzwords. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
ijuka said: Shirou telling Lancer he can't touch Rin. This, Archer vs Shirou and Shirou vs Gil, with the famous: "Here I come, King of Heroes! Do you have enough swords in stock?" |
| Red is the color of a hero |
 |
insan3priest said: Eh, I'll take Kirei vs. Shirou over Shirou vs. Gil any damn day. The former is just much more personal to me given how so similar the two of them are in their differences. Not that the Gil fight wasn't cool, particularly Shirou's awesome line and the UBW setting. I fully agree. I found the Kirei vs Shirou fight to have so much more meaning. |
 |
Hantsuki03 said: ijuka said: Shirou telling Lancer he can't touch Rin. This, Archer vs Shirou and Shirou vs Gil, with the famous: "Here I come, King of Heroes! Do you have enough swords in stock?" Fuck, I'm looking forward to that line so much. Also Archer's headshot. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Most anticipated "dem feels" scene. open this in a new window but dont look at the name of the tab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1BdRJzc3Dk and then open the spoiler |
Ragna92 said: insan3priest said: Eh, I'll take Kirei vs. Shirou over Shirou vs. Gil any damn day. The former is just much more personal to me given how so similar the two of them are in their differences. Not that the Gil fight wasn't cool, particularly Shirou's awesome line and the UBW setting. I fully agree. I found the Kirei vs Shirou fight to have so much more meaning. No fight could beat Shirou vs. Archer in term of meaning. :3 But well, i agree that Shirou vs Kirei has a meaning to it. Shirou scares of confronting Kirei because he scares that his resolve is weaker than Kirei's. In the fight, he has to constantly persuade himself that he has Sakura, while Kirei has nothing. But in the end, he cannot beat Kirei. And that's why I don't like HF Shirou. In UBW, Shirou wants to confront Archer. We wants to punch Archer in the face. He has to show Archer that his ideal is fake, but it is beautiful, and he will live his life with it. He has absolute fate in his ideal. And his enemy is far greater than a badass villain: himself. |
Just_ChickenOct 23, 2014 11:24 AM
insan3priest said: CookingPriest said: Which I also thought of as fanpandering. Again, how could it even be fanpandering if there is no way for him to have fans at this point? You and your damn buzzwords. Possible fans are there "hey this douchebag badass villain got horrible and fitting fates in other routes - let's do one for those who want to feel better" Even Shinji gets one like that. |
|
| Man, I'm going to be honest, that sounds ridiculous. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: Man, I'm going to be honest, that sounds ridiculous. That's how fiction works. Why do you think The Last Episode exists? |
|
CookingPriest said: insan3priest said: Man, I'm going to be honest, that sounds ridiculous. That's how fiction works. Why do you think The Last Episode exists? No, I meant your comment sounds ridiculous. Last Episode is completely different because it came about well after Saber had already gotten her fan base. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: CookingPriest said: That's how fiction works. Why do you think The Last Episode exists? No, I meant your comment sounds ridiculous. Last Episode is completely different because it came about well after Saber had already gotten her fan base. Well yes, butthe purpose is the same. Nasu covered all bases in case someone really liked those characters. The problem is while SHinji's fate is still awful and fits. Kirei and Gil's do not really fit the tone of their characters. Gil at least gets owned, while kirei gets a honorable battle. |
|
| Yeah, I'm done arguing this. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
chickenonthepan said: No fight could beat Shirou vs. Archer in term of meaning. :3 |
-Shuda- said: chickenonthepan said: No fight could beat Shirou vs. Archer in term of meaning. :3 I dunno, both this and his fight with Kirei at the end of Heaven's Feel are both substantial, just in different ways. The one with Archer is a fight against a future self that regrets his life, the other is just as I said before. Both Kirei and Archer are very important to Emiya Shirou and his growth. So, to me, they are about even. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Obviously Shirou vs Gil is not as personal as Shirou vs Kotomine, but still Gil being defeated by a human of the modern era is pretty meaningful. Its literally poetic justice. And besides like everyone says no fight could have more meaning than Archer vs Shirou. |
 |
insan3priest said: -Shuda- said: I dunno, both this and his fight with Kirei at the end of Heaven's Feel are both substantial, just in different ways. The one with Archer is a fight against a future self that regrets his life, the other is just as I said before. Both Kirei and Archer are very important to Emiya Shirou and his growth. So, to me, they are about even. Again, "The biggest enemy you have to deal with is yourself." For this, Kirei vs Shirou is nowhere near Shirou vs. Archer. :3 Also, Archer is not simply a future self. Archer is one part inside Shirou that he has to defeat to uphold his ideal to the very end. Archer is the representation of doubts and regrets inside him. |
Just_ChickenOct 23, 2014 1:12 PM
| Well, yeah. But, I consider the Kirei/Shirou relationship just as compelling. To put it simply he's kind of like the Joker to Shirou's Batman, both are crazy and have some degree of similarities but ultimately handle themselves differently. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| We can probably agree that "meaning-wise" those are the top two in Fate, for our protagonist, hands down. Also, Kirei/Shirou is a true "finale", and I acknowledge that they are the ultimate foils to each other. I'm about to start my re-read of Heaven's Feel soon after just completing the first two. Here I come Mapo Tofu. |
Kayaba-Oct 26, 2014 9:52 AM
chickenonthepan said: insan3priest said: I dunno, both this and his fight with Kirei at the end of Heaven's Feel are both substantial, just in different ways. The one with Archer is a fight against a future self that regrets his life, the other is just as I said before. Both Kirei and Archer are very important to Emiya Shirou and his growth. So, to me, they are about even. Again, "The biggest enemy you have to deal with is yourself." For this, Kirei vs Shirou is nowhere near Shirou vs. Archer. :3 Also, Archer is not simply a future self. Archer is one part inside Shirou that he has to defeat to uphold his ideal to the very end. Archer is the representation of doubts and regrets inside him. Well Kirei is SHirou too in a way. But the way SHirou deals with him in Fate is more fitting |
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CookingPriest said: But the way SHirou deals with him in Fate is more fitting While I like the dagger scene and the sequence is pretty cool in general, I'll respectfully disagree. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: CookingPriest said: Well Kirei is SHirou too in a way. But the way SHirou deals with him in Fate is more fitting While I like the dagger scene and the sequence is pretty cool in general, I'll respectfully disagree. The buildup as foils for each other is what makes it much more significant in Heaven's Feel. So yeah, Kirei's exposure isn't present in Fate. Maybe after knowing his full character and going back to view the dagger scene makes a difference that CP is overlooking. The way the VN is presented, HF is the more powerful scene, especially since the two with similarities are in a battle of wills, and "what to lose". KIREI surpasses all expectations, honestly. |
| I'd say Kirei's fate in Fate fits very well with his revelation of what he did to TOkiomi in UBW. |
|
CookingPriest said: I'd say Kirei's fate in Fate fits very well with his revelation of what he did to TOkiomi in UBW. I think all three ends are fitting for him. |
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CookingPriest said: I'd say Kirei's fate in Fate fits very well with his revelation of what he did to TOkiomi in UBW. I agree with you that it was fitting, but on that same point, the revelations come after it, and so does the experience in Fate/Zero (speaking more on "execution" than "overall content" here). Heaven's Feel had more than enough buildup, follow up, and shock factors. I get both sides though. |
Kayaba-Oct 23, 2014 1:46 PM
RinPriest said: HeisenPriest said: I think all three ends are fitting for him. I liked UBW the most because its where he is most surprised by his death, sorry I just like seeing Kirei suffer. As expected of a Rin priest. I'm not saying I don't like his other endings by the way, I just prefer Heaven's Feel's version. Also, keep in mind that I didn't really start to totally dig Kirei's character until that particular route. His argument about Angra Mainyu's birth was particularly compelling, as well as the history with his wife and all. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
RinPriest said: HeisenPriest said: I think all three ends are fitting for him. I liked UBW the most because its where he is most surprised by his death, sorry I just like seeing Kirei suffer. I like both ubw and fate ends because they are fitting ends of his narrative full of poetic justice and karma. HF ending is just traditional "honorable glorious villain fight with gracious exist that makes you respect him". And sorry, I will never "respect" Kirei. I enjoy him as villain but I want him suffer for shit he does, not go out gloriously. |
|
| I certainly would never call Kirei honorable, it's just in Heaven's Feel he and Shirou had a common enemy and the guy, despite his compelling argument as I said, is still wanting to unleash All Evil of the World just to see what it does. He's still evil, it's just you get more context for it and it paints in him in a much more interesting light. Also, I loved that Heaven's Feel was very grey in a lot of ways, so him going out gloriously and not "how he deserved" is perfectly fine with me. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| I don't see how HF was more grey than UBW or fate. |
|
| Should have known you would just zero in on the grey part......Look, when I say that I am not saying that the other routes are "lesser" because of this or anything of that nature. I just think that, by their very natures, the first two routes are closer to being good vs. evil stories. They have to be and I think UBW in the end was amazing for it. Shirou realizing that he may suffer because of his decision to be a hero, but embracing it anyway was profound imo. I just think Heaven's Feel takes it in another interesting direction, is all. For the record, I consider both UBW and HF 10/10 routes. Sure, I slightly favor HF but UBW is compelling stuff in it's own right. As far as the spoiler. When you use words like "emo" I just lose all interest in the conversation. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
CookingPriest said: RinPriest said: I liked UBW the most because its where he is most surprised by his death, sorry I just like seeing Kirei suffer. I like both ubw and fate ends because they are fitting ends of his narrative full of poetic justice and karma. HF ending is just traditional "honorable glorious villain fight with gracious exist that makes you respect him". And sorry, I will never "respect" Kirei. I enjoy him as villain but I want him suffer for shit he does, not go out gloriously. Huh? If you think of it this way then I don't see how Kirei's Fate and UBW ends are any less "traditional" than his HF one, cause "karma's a bitch" is just as common, really. In any case, I disagree with your vision of Kirei's fate in HF: |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| @ GangstaPriest Kind of forgot about the details you brought up, but I see what you mean. I think Fai means glorious in the "epic battle" sense, though. At least that is what I think he means. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: Oh yeah, the battle itself is definitely glorious. But Fai-kun seemed to downplay the cruelty behind his end in HF, hence my rant on the subject.@ GangstaPriest Kind of forgot about the details you brought up, but I see what you mean. I think Fai means glorious in the "epic battle" sense, though. At least that is what I think he means. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
GangstaPriest said: insan3priest said: Oh yeah, the battle itself is definitely glorious. But Fai-kun seemed to downplay the cruelty behind his end in HF, hence my rant on the subject.@ GangstaPriest Kind of forgot about the details you brought up, but I see what you mean. I think Fai means glorious in the "epic battle" sense, though. At least that is what I think he means. he goes out fighting single person who is closest to him in terms of being "void", in a fair fight with both of them running out of time and is portrayed as way stronger and simply dies because he ran out of time. That's way too much fairness and gloriousness I am willing to allow to feel for Kirei. He went out the way that is VERY unfitting to the way he lived. That's my problem. I still think the fight is badass, its just not as badass as those I listed few pages back. |
|
| Having just read it, I'm looking forward to the Kuzuki vs. Saber fight. It will be interesting how they adapt it as it could be controversial. I thought it was a great moment, though. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: Having just read it, I'm looking forward to the Kuzuki vs. Saber fight. It will be interesting how they adapt it as it could be controversial. I thought it was a great moment, though. Predicted reaction: Saber can kill Berserker but cannot kill a mere human? Asspull... |
| Predicted reaction: Wow saber sucks |
chickenonthepan said: insan3priest said: Having just read it, I'm looking forward to the Kuzuki vs. Saber fight. It will be interesting how they adapt it as it could be controversial. I thought it was a great moment, though. Predicted reaction: Saber can kill Berserker but cannot kill a mere human? Asspull... I still don't like it. Her instinct is relevant against Tsubame Gaeshi, Lancer, Bazaka.... etc. Although, I don't want to start this again, so I shall sit through it all quietly. Since C-rank cutting Bazaka is already a bit contradictory, I can let Kuzuki/Saber slide now as a one time glory moment in this Anime. It can be a bit lenient, and it's not like I have any complaints as the scenes are/will be great since Ufotable. |
Kayaba-Oct 26, 2014 10:01 AM
| The fight makes perfect sense. All throughout the Fate route Saber is very adamant that "Masters cannot fight servants", hell she's borderline smug about it. Taking this into account, of course she would be caught completely and utterly off guard by this guy stopping her blade and hitting her "from out of nowhere" in her eyes. Also, from a storytelling stand point, the Caster team not having a combatant wouldn't be particularly interesting and it makes sense that Caster would be able to augment Kuzuki's abilities. Most importantly it is stated that Saber was only bested because of surprise and her instincts in this case screwing her up. She would certainly destroy him given another chance. Another thing to note is that it sets up a precedent that Masters can in fact fight Servants given certain conditions. Which is obviously important going forward. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Valid points. My only gripe is that she gets out of his range many times, even if the beginning of the fight is logical (King Arthur isn't a trainee or anything, and instinct is basically nearing objective precognition). It just doesn't click with me, but thanks lol. The 'Masters can fight servants' could also be showcased without a complete and utter stomp in favor of one in that fashion (Caster could've indirectly interfered a bit here in unorthodox methods to keep it consistent). Kuzuki seemingly claimed that he couldn't use his finishing blow on Saber again because she has seen the trick once, not sure about Saber completely destroying him (although Rin/Saber of course "should"). So yeah, the point going forward that Masters can fight Servants could still be showcased, but could've clearly been handled better. Although once again, don't mind me too much. I have to learn to accept it, and it doesn't affect my view on the overall plot, enjoyment, story or anything. It was just a bit too much of a "jab" at Saber. |
Kayaba-Oct 26, 2014 10:43 AM
| Anyone who has read Mahoyo would be not in the slighest surprised on how that fight turned out. |
|
CookingPriest said: Anyone who has read Mahoyo would be not in the slighest surprised on how that fight turned out. So Aoko/or friends buff themselves with magic and lay the smackdown on a Saber Arturia servant with bare hands/unorthodox martial arts. Cool. If Kuzuki is well and above Nanaya Kiri as a threat without the aid of Caster, then it would start to make a bit more sense that he could "maybe match" her for a bit with buffs. |
Kayaba-Oct 26, 2014 10:56 AM
-Shuda- said: Kuzuki Souichirou.CookingPriest said: Anyone who has read Mahoyo would be not in the slighest surprised on how that fight turned out. So Aoko/or friends buff themselves with magic and lay the smackdown on a Saber Arturia servant with bare hands/martial arts. Cool. Mahoyo spoilers: |
-Shuda- said: CookingPriest said: Anyone who has read Mahoyo would be not in the slighest surprised on how that fight turned out. So Aoko/or friends buff themselves with magic and lay the smackdown on a Saber Arturia servant with bare hands/unorthodox martial arts. Cool. Like a fuckin boss tho'. Goddamn I wanna read this thing. |
InsertPriestHere said: -Shuda- said: So Aoko/or friends buff themselves with magic and lay the smackdown on a Saber Arturia servant with bare hands/unorthodox martial arts. Cool. Like a fuckin boss tho'. Goddamn I wanna read this thing. That is sick as shit. I've seen the CG before, but is it really done like that in the actual VN? Anyway, Kuzuki doesn't even match Saber. The sequence very clearly drives home that the element of surprise is why she took that beating. Also, I'm pretty sure that fight ended in a matter of seconds so it'll also be interesting to see how Ufotable handles that. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: InsertPriestHere said: Like a fuckin boss tho'. Goddamn I wanna read this thing. That is sick as shit. I've seen the CG before, but is it really done like that in the actual VN? Anyway, Kuzuki doesn't even match Saber. The sequence very clearly drives home that the element of surprise is why she took that beating. Also, I'm pretty sure that fight ended in a matter of seconds so it'll also be interesting to see how Ufotable handles that. I believe (and hope) so, yeah, they seem to have a lot of animations. God fucking damn I wanna read this thing. @_@ |
insan3priest said: InsertPriestHere said: Like a fuckin boss tho'. Goddamn I wanna read this thing. That is sick as shit. I've seen the CG before, but is it really done like that in the actual VN? Anyway, Kuzuki doesn't even match Saber. The sequence very clearly drives home that the element of surprise is why she took that beating. Also, I'm pretty sure that fight ended in a matter of seconds so it'll also be interesting to see how Ufotable handles that. Yes. Exactly like that. What that scene does not show in that gif is |
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