| I already made a club for this, so i'll just copy some of the arguments posted in the club. rederoin said: The problem is that shoujo-ai is used on MAL for 'light yuri', when in fact that word refers to love for little girls and/or paedophilia. You can check its wikipedia page for more info. In other words, it's outdated. Shoujo-ai - Little girl love, in other words love for little girls. Yuri - Girls' love. Symbv said: Or Love Shoujo (little girl), and this is this meaning that is how the word is understood in Japan now. So you end up with a Japanese word that you think you know its meaning, but in fact the actual meaning turn out to be vastly different in Japan. What worse usage of a foreign term can it be? Ejc said: rederoin is correct. A MAL user from who currently lives in Japan has confirmed that the correct definition of shoujo-ai in Japan, now means love for little girls (associated with pedophilia). It has been this way for awhile now. The Western usage of the term is now outdated. If westerners really want to use Japanese terms, then they should use it in the correct way, or find another way to express what they mean. |
| Uhh, Loli-Ai? Hehe. Anyhow, I am all up for correct meaning and setting of various words/sentences with what they represent. If Shoujo-Ai and Shounen-Ai indeed aren't a light girl-on-girl and boy-on-boy marks, then this could be seen as a misleading setting. If it indeed is, then I do agree that a differently-named tag would be nice. Thanks for pointing this out to a bit more wider MAL public, it sure sounds interesting. Edit: Pretty much a reply on the idea that stands clear: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=759295&show=20#msg28107489 |
SubbedJan 30, 2014 11:21 PM
| We also need a section for demographics. |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
rederoin said: rederoin said: The problem is that shoujo-ai is used on MAL for 'light yuri', when in fact that word refers to love for little girls and/or paedophilia. You can check its wikipedia page for more info. In other words, it's outdated. Shoujo-ai - Little girl love, in other words love for little girls. Yuri - Girls' love. Really? Wikipedia said: If we're changing the tags, then we should also change shonen-ai and yaoi, to yaoi and BL respectively.Yuri focuses on the sexual or the emotional aspects of the relationship, or both, the latter of which sometimes being called shōjo-ai by western fans. ... Following the pattern of shōnen-ai, a term already in use in North America to describe content involving non-sexual relationships between men, western fans coined the term shōjo-ai to describe yuri without explicit sex.[6] In Japan the term shōjo-ai (少女愛?, lit. girl love) is not used with this meaning,[6] and instead tends to denote pedophilia (actual or perceived), with a similar meaning to the term lolicon (Lolita complex). |
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| Sometimes a loan word can come to mean a different thing in the language it is adopted into than what it does in the original language. And, at the end of the day, that's what the term is used as. Apart from the unfortunate implications involved, it makes no more sense to launch a campaign againt English speakers using 'shoujo-ai' to refer to light yuri than it does to launch a campaign against Japanese speakers using mansion (or マンション) when referring to a flat, rather than the grand stately home that it usually refers to in English. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
| I didn't know we'd become a Japanese site. |
Zalis said: That is true. This whole site is based on the definition of anime that they created.I didn't know we'd become a Japanese site. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
DarknessOfEmo said: I confused at the shoujo-ai definition. How it could be little girls where it should mean light yuri instead.(that's what I think about what it means instead.) The meaning of Shoujo-Ai in japan relates to loving little girls. after all the direct translation means "Girl Love". Western Otakus have changed the meaning to be innocent love between females. |
Zalis said: I didn't know we'd become a Japanese site. I do not see the connection between that statement and (possible) incorrect using of various words around. If we indeed do have some Japanese words here and there, I believe those can have the correct meaning (if they don't already). |
Peiale said: Well he's basically saying this site is for English speakers and we already know these definitions. Our definition of anime on this site is different than Japan, we use what fits for the database and our community.Zalis said: I didn't know we'd become a Japanese site. I do not see the connection between that statement and (possible) incorrect using of various words around. If we indeed do have some Japanese words here and there, I believe those can have the correct meaning (if they don't already). |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| @IntroverTurtle In other words, it doesn't matter what the real meaning of some words/sentences is, as long as we know what they represent on MAL. Well, sounds good with me either way. ;) |
SubbedJan 29, 2014 9:08 PM
Peiale said: Ehhhh it's more like what works, it's not completely wrong, just outdated. I don't completely agree though. I do think trying to keep with the Japanese definition would be better as it would be more consistent but I also see that this is a different culture and community that uses some words differently as it fits(like anime).@IntroverTurtle In other words, it doesn't matter what the real meaning of some words/sentences is, as long as we know what they represent on MAL. Well, sounds good with me either way. ;) |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| w/e just don't use shojo ai as that's something entirely different lol |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
IntroverTurtle said: I don't completely agree though. I do think trying to keep with the Japanese definition would be better as it would be more consistent but I also see that this is a different culture and community that uses some words differently as it fits(like anime). Yeah. Same here. Peiale said: I am all up for correct meaning and setting of various words/sentences with what they represent. If Shoujo-Ai and Shounen-Ai indeed aren't a light girl-on-girl and boy-on-boy marks, then this could be seen as a misleading setting. If it indeed is, then I do agree that a differently-named tag would be nice. |
Peiale said: @IntroverTurtle In other words, it doesn't matter what the real meaning of some words/sentences is, as long as we know what they represent on MAL. Well, sounds good with me either way. ;) What does "real meaning" mean? People in Japan call "anime" ALL animation. Is that the "correct meaning"? As word "anime" is from Japan, hence we should follow Japanese definition. Then we should add all existent in the world cartoons to MAL and all other anime-related sites The same with "shoujo-ai". They may mean whatever they want with that words in Japan, but it already has different meaning in English, and I don't understand how any of those meanings is more "real" than other |
SerhiykoJan 30, 2014 3:27 AM
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Serhiyko said: What does "real meaning" mean? People in Japan call "anime" ALL animation. Is that the "correct meaning"? As word "anime" is from Japan, hence we should follow Japanese definition. Then we should add all existent in the world cartoons to MAL and all other anime-related sites The same with "shoujo-ai". They may mean whatever they want with that words in Japan, but it already has different meaning in English, and I don't understand how any of those meanings is more "real" than other By "real", I meant the direct translations. I do not know if the Japanese people call the American cartoons "anime" as well, so I won't say a thing on that. However, you have said that they do in your post. Anyhow, yeah, the word "real" was capturing the direct translation and meaning from the Japanese language. We are currently using some phrases which aren't directly translated to the same meaning, but we are used to them already. As I've said, I'm perfectly fine with both. However, that is only when it comes to the anime culture. Elsewhere, such inaccurate and false translations aren't wanted. Hence why I've said "real". I covered the full-scale usage the phrases tell when saying that, not only the anime culture. |
Serhiyko said: I agree with this.t already has different meaning in English Whatever it means in japanese, people have already grown accustomed to using shoujo-ai so I don't think it should be changed. If anything it would be confusing for some people. So does shounen-ai refer to paedophilia in Japan as well? |
rederoin said: Would you mind giving numbers for that? I like the term since it's the equivalent of shonen-ai in female.Heredity said: Yes, let's orient MAL towards a foreign userbase that doesn't browse the website. Perfect. A large part of the western yuri fanbase hates the term. |
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| As I have already been quoted in the OP, I would like to see something done about the misuse of "shoujo-ai" and "shounen-ai". They need to be changed to "yuri" and "BL" for accuracy and consistency, as that is what MAL prides itself for its DB entries? I already know of one Anime DB mod that agrees with me that the outdated usage of shoujo-ai should no longer be used here. Now will the MAL staff actually do something about it, or continue to dodge the problem as with many other problems we have on MAL? Heredity said: Yes, let's orient MAL towards a foreign userbase that doesn't browse the website. Perfect. Not true. There are native Japanese also using MAL (I have seen posts at 2ch that have come from MAL), and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". Vudis said: I agree with this. Whatever it means in japanese, people have already grown accustomed to using shoujo-ai so I don't think it should be changed. If anything it would be confusing for some people. So does shounen-ai refer to paedophilia in Japan as well? I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 9:44 AM
The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. |
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yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 9:52 AM
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
Ejc said: So, besides removing two tags, there would be a need to add another one to differentiate whether a yaoi/yuri/hentai was sexual or not?yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. |
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yazio said: Ejc said: So, besides removing two tags, there would be a need to add another one to differentiate whether a yaoi/yuri/hentai was sexual or not?yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. I wouldn't mind hentai being used here, as sexual stuff can also be considered perverted, strange or whatever. So there's a way to differentiate from non-sexual yuri/BL. But yes, those two tags (shoujo-ai and shounen-ai) should be removed from here and/or replaced with yuri and BL respectively. Yuri is already available, but BL should be added if MAL actually gets more coders on board. The problem is on CraveOnline's end though, on why a small amount of significant changes have occurred here on MAL in recent times. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 10:18 AM
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
| Oh this again http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=516019&show=0#msg18247025 No offense but you really need to calm down about this yuri/shoujo ai genre crap. |
| There is no reason to change the tag. Language is just a collection of words with shared meaning. Most of MAL agrees the term 'shoujo ai' refers to girls' love, and so it does. That's how language works. |
| Shoujo-ai is redundant anyway, since we have a yuri tag which applies to all girl's love, sexual or not. I've never seen something like Yuru Yuri or Sakura Trick described as "shoujo-ai" in English, people use "yuri" instead. |
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| l propose keeping the shojo-ai tag but using it correctly (as little girl love) |
| This is turning into a far longer and deeper deal than it's worth it. Let's face it: This site focuses on entertainment. And although it is good to keep some standards up, it is the matter of understanding that's the key. I'm personally okay both ways, as said, but would like one setting to stay for a longer time after being changed/input, purely for the sake of users getting used to it and automatically connecting it with a specific topic. If Shoujo-Ai already tends to do that, then it's just fine, IMHO. |
Peiale said: However, that is only when it comes to the anime culture. Elsewhere, such inaccurate and false translations aren't wanted. Hence why I've said "real". I covered the full-scale usage the phrases tell when saying that, not only the anime culture. "Direct translation" is not "real meaning". And we are not using translation, we are using the words themselves that kind-of have become part of the language (maybe in some specialized sphere). Words come from one language to other and alter their meanings and sometime pronunciation and spelling, hence one meaning, pronunciation or spelling is not more "real" then other. They are all "real" in their own languages or dialects, as even in one language the same word may mean completely different things depending on the area. Why is that all of a sudden only restricted to the anime culture, I don't even... |
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| I was focusing specifically on Shoujo-Ai when saying that it's restricted for the anime culture only. You make a road in your post, and although it usually keeps to the topic, you come to a tad misguided solution in the end by stretching it and taking everything for granted. Regardless, I know what you mean. And I agree with it. Whatever is easier to understand and is used to, no need to turn MAL into an education site. Moreover, something that sounds "cool" never hurts, does it? ;) |
Heredity said: Ejc said: There are native Japanese also using MAL (I have seen posts at 2ch that have come from MAL), and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". Fuck them. Catering to the extreme minority is an absolutely idiotic idea. But they've posted their arguments at 2ch, how can we take it lightly? |
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| I'd rather people just use yuri/yaoi as an umbrella term for all homosexual pairings if it would stop all the semantics bitching. People can use other tags to discern whether or not there's sexually explicit content. If there has to be an alternative, just use GL/BL. Easier to type and say, and harder to misinterpret. |
| Hmm, could use: "bian" (short for lesbian), "Onna x Onna" ("women x women"), or "Onna-doushi" ("women together") I'd be fine with this change (Onna-doushi is my favorite) But my biggest problem with having two terms is that I find they keep overlapping which can make searches and proper categorizing hard to do. For example, Girls Friends and Octave Girl Friends is shoujo-ai, Octave is yuri* They have enough similar qualities that it seems out of place to put them into two separate categories of romance. It's easier to just say "yuri" but I've seen people take this as "gay porn" so I've been going with "yuri/shoujo-ai"... * (and seinen but it's content runs closer to josei) |
Mogu-samaFeb 1, 2014 6:59 AM
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
| Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
ToG25thBaam said: Are the ratings on anime from MAL or a ratings board in Japan?Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). |
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
| I like it how this discussion has actually taken approximately 50%-50% sides in the userbase contributing. So, what do we do in a situation when both sides are correct? One saying that you cannot simply change the meaning of some words/sentences/phrases as you wish (which I agree with), with the other one stating that it has to be understandable and used to (which I agree with as well, since the site itself focuses on entertainment). Perhaps this calls for having things optional. For each user to have an option of what will display for him/her in the database under that meaning. Of course, if these words would be hyperlinked, the link would stay the same, just the direct display could vary from here to there, as someone would prefer to see it. |
mugi said: You can't twist another language to your liking and say, well "umi" now means "earth", because you're english and that's how you want to use that japanese word. Actually, if 'umi' got used enough by English speakers when referring to 'earth', then it would mean that. It wouldn't mean that in Japanese, true. But it would still have that meaning. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
Mogu-sama said: ToG25thBaam said: Are the ratings on anime from MAL or a ratings board in Japan?Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). I actually mean on MAL, and for the manga section. We have a rating system for the anime already, we need one for the manga too to be honest, because we don't have the "mature" or "adult" tag on MAL like on any other manga site. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| This thread is really weird. Why do people want to be wrong? |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
brrr said: Why do people want an English-language site to be controlled by a few speakers of another language on the other side of the planet telling them they're wrong? As others have pointed out, if we're going by the "whatever Japan/2ch says is Law" standard, why are we restricting "anime" to Japanese/East Asian animation in the first place?This thread is really weird. Why do people want to be wrong? |
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