Sword Art Online (light novel)
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symbv said: Amberleh said: You said SAO is far more popular with male than female because it is a harem, but we all know the female fandom of Ranma and Maison Ikkoku is big.Ranma 1/2 and Maison Ikkoku ARE harems and i don't think miss Rumiko Takahashi would even disagree with that. She happens to be a female who writes shounen/seinen series because there are more male anime fans than female anime fans, so she probably grew up reading shounen series and was influenced by them. Especially during her childhood shoujo/josei were very rare. No offense, but harems in general tend to be more directed towards the male audience, those are prolly just one of the few exceptions. |
RockerXD said: True, but that does not necessarily mean that because of existence of harems females will be turned off, making the work "much less popular with" females.No offense, but harems in general tend to be more directed towards the male audience, those are prolly just one of the few exceptions. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| wow. this is just getting worse and worse. |
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| @Amberleh You know that that they could make Sugu fall in love with him even if she was his real sister right?It's not something the Japanese CANT do. No females in the background?oh plz get of your feminist horse and see the last ep again. And the girls do not have friends?How about Asuna and Liz?Oh right Liz loves Kirito so she doesnt count(logic).How about Lufa and And the murder case...wow...Kirito and Asuna surely forgave the husband for killing his wife so you are right.We cant have a husband being a total asshole(which is sexist towards men if you want)and have him pay for this(logic #2). "There's also the manner in which female gamers are portrayed- they're weak and scared and have to be protected." Guess what. SAO wasnt a simple game afterall.You die when you are killed.Tell me of a mediocre anime, with life and death situations where the females arent being protected. There already is a "SAO is Sexist" BS thread already for you to rant for something that doesnt make sense. |
ssjokgNov 8, 2012 7:14 AM
| This anime isn't sexist. More importantly, who here agrees that Suguha is pretty much the best thing that's happened so far? |
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| If it's SAO, it's sexist, if it's any other blatantly harem anime.. nobody says a thing.. The haters are getting more and more pathetic. |
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MusashiRose said: wow. this is just getting worse and worse. I was about to say that. +1 |
| Here comes Amberleh again, the overly defensive female rights activist. It's hard to argue gender equality when you were the one who said "Then again you're a guy so you wouldn't understand." This show isn't sexist but it is cliche and stereotypical. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Amberleh said: SAO is also far more popular among males than females because it's a harem series. It's not even a pseudo-harem at this point- It's just a harem. Yet, SAO is not a harem, at least in the sense you are trying to imply, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. You can say too many girls fall in "love" with Kirito, but that does not make it a harem. Kirito does not actively try to get girls to like him. He just does what he thinks is right and somehow they like him for it. When they find out he already likes someone they back off, example Lizbeth. The only girl Kirito himself likes and wants is Asuna. Kirito is a monogamous person, not a polygamist. You can call all those other girls "fangirls." If you still say it is a harem, well then I guess Naruto is also a harem at the beginning with all those girls going after Sasuke. |
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ssjokg said: Not the power of love by itself but how it is used. In most -if not all- shounen the MC will suddenly gain enough power to save the day. In SAO it was even worse since it absolutely couldnt happen because: 1)The Software:within the game as Kayaba designed it, nothing should be able to "overpower" the system. 2)The Hardware: NerveGear CANT do what the Soul Translator in Vol9 and 10 can(and whatever is used in AW since I havent seen/read it but heard stuff) so it would be impossible for Asuna to use her imagination to break free form the paralysis. "This is something you have to just put in the "just accept it" column and don't question it IMO." I did. Well there are some Regardless, I just accepted that it happened, like you and my poor attempt at explaining it is not very good ^^ |
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BloodRequiem said: Here comes Amberleh again, the overly defensive female rights activist. It's hard to argue gender equality when you were the one who said "Then again you're a guy so you wouldn't understand." This show isn't sexist but it is cliche and stereotypical. BloodRequiem said: Here comes Amberleh again, the overly defensive female rights activist. It's hard to argue gender equality when you were the one who said "Then again you're a guy so you wouldn't understand." This show isn't sexist but it is cliche and stereotypical. But it is. I'd call it the most sexist show I've seen in a long time, but Btooom aired. I mean, the only strong (in terms of stats) female in the whole show was Asuna, and even she became meekly subservient once she got together with Kirito. It was far worse than when the FSN anime kept Saber in the kitchen. That guys don't see this - especially in this case - has a lot to do with the fact that they don't want to see their little fantasy as anything 'bad'. In a way it isn't. If the average rating of this was around 7 on MAL few people would be annoyed, but the number of people insisting it is a masterpiece is just plain annoying. My comparison to Twilight is in terms of: *really high sales, huge mainstream appeal, the fans think it's the best thing ever 10/10. (<- this one is important) *fans defend themselves from criticism by saying equivalents of 'they're just haters'. *great production values for the adaptation. Poor vocabulary and style for the original. *it's a romantic self-insert fantasy of the author written as they were a teenager. *the main love interests are, depending on who you ask, either perfect or deeply troubling. *both the main characters are average looking dark haired introverts with old-fashioned values; their difference in activity levels can be explained by the male power fantasy vs the female being taken care of fantasy - Twilight is worse in this regard. *in spite of this, both have several unique attractive individuals wanting a piece of them - SAO is worse in this regard. *the plot has very poor progression - SAO is again worse in this regard. They do of course have differences in terms of story and themes, but I'm drawing the comparison based on these important points that stick out very strongly in my mind. |
| Really? Calling SAO sexist when there are other animes that is far worse? What next will these haters think of? |
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Kiraly said: BloodRequiem said: Here comes Amberleh again, the overly defensive female rights activist. It's hard to argue gender equality when you were the one who said "Then again you're a guy so you wouldn't understand." This show isn't sexist but it is cliche and stereotypical. BloodRequiem said: Here comes Amberleh again, the overly defensive female rights activist. It's hard to argue gender equality when you were the one who said "Then again you're a guy so you wouldn't understand." This show isn't sexist but it is cliche and stereotypical. But it is. I'd call it the most sexist show I've seen in a long time, but Btooom aired. I mean, the only strong (in terms of stats) female in the whole show was Asuna, and even she became meekly subservient once she got together with Kirito. It was far worse than when the FSN anime kept Saber in the kitchen. That guys don't see this - especially in this case - has a lot to do with the fact that they don't want to see their little fantasy as anything 'bad'. In a way it isn't.If the average rating of this was around 7 on MAL few people would be annoyed, but the number of people insisting it is a masterpiece is just plain annoying. My comparison to Twilight is in terms of: *really high sales, huge mainstream appeal, the fans think it's the best thing ever 10/10. (<- this one is important) *fans defend themselves from criticism by saying equivalents of 'they're just haters'. *great production values for the adaptation. Poor vocabulary and style for the original. *it's a romantic self-insert fantasy of the author written as they were a teenager. *the main love interests are, depending on who you ask, either perfect or deeply troubling. *both the main characters are average looking dark haired introverts with old-fashioned values; their difference in activity levels can be explained by the male power fantasy vs the female being taken care of fantasy - Twilight is worse in this regard. *in spite of this, both have several unique attractive individuals wanting a piece of them - SAO is worse in this regard. *the plot has very poor progression - SAO is again worse in this regard. They do of course have differences in terms of story and themes, but I'm drawing the comparison based on these important points that stick out very strongly in my mind. So that's it.... And you obviously dont know the meaning of subservient. Also from the OMG sexist SAO thread: ssjokg said: Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there. Make up your mind would you. AND PLEASE. Stop saying that the only ones that like it are fantasied teen boys.You embarrass yourself with that "fact" you have found. |
ssjokg said: AND PLEASE. Stop saying that the only ones that like it are fantasied teen boys.You embarrass yourself with that "fact" you have found. Didn't say that. 13 year old girls aren't the only Twilight fans either. ssjokg said: ssjokg said: Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there.[ Heh. ssjokg said: Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist It's something guys and radical feminists often claim, but by itself it's not - look at all the useless female shoujo leads. Now, if said female lead doesn't actually do do anything is another matter. Or a useful female character turning useless once a Guy appears, that's also a different matter. ssjokg said: Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist ? Where did you ever read someone saying this? Is it about Asuna? Her problem is that the the story turns her useless one she has a guy. Is it about what I said about Saber? She's freaking King Arthur, she shouldn't be anywhere near a kitchen. ssjokg said: Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist When was the last time you saw an unattractive female lead? Especially in a romance? Bella in the movies was pretty. The problem some people had was that the movies turned her from an ugly duckling into a pretty girl. ssjokg said: Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist And the problem here isn't that the girl is attractive, it's when your only female character is a DD barely clad sex bomb - this is a problem games often have, but SAO mostly side-stepped. I mean, it sucks that none of the girls looks unattractive, or even ugly (considering the setting), but we're used to that. ssjokg said: Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Mmm, no. Nobody ever said that. Unless by loyal you mean 'doesn't think for herself, doesn't do anything without the guy's permission, stays in the kitchen' (Asuna). And when was the last time you saw female infidelity in anime? ssjokg said: Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist When was the last time you saw female infidelity in anime? In fact, a girl character that sleeps around would be the opposite of sexist. ssjokg said: Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there. Of course you do. whatever123456 said: All in all, your points are not very convincing. You either make things up or compare cherry picked aspects that have nothing to do with the show or its plot (haircolor). Hair color? Heh. I picked a list of important similarities. You didn't exactly offer counterarguments either. SAO is to teenage male anime fans as Twilight is to female teenage girls, this clearer? Point me one other thing that fits the bill better that is not SAO. (If you say Vampire Knight then you completely missed the point). That doesn't make them structurally or thematically similar; it's not about the individual points either. As for the specific points: LNs on average are rather poorly written, and the two chapters of SAO that I've read are no exception. I'm not getting into the plot progression debate for either story. People complain about the production values being misused (in both, might I add), rather than about them by itself. Edited for like a million typos. |
KiralyNov 8, 2012 8:49 AM
Kiraly said: ssjokg said: AND PLEASE. Stop saying that the only ones that like it are fantasied teen boys.You embarrass yourself with that "fact" you have found. Didn't say that. 13 year old girls aren't the only Twilight fans either. ssjokg said: ssjokg said: Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there.[ Heh. ssjokg said: Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist That in itself is not sexist. It's something guys and radical feminists often claim, but in itself is not - look at all the useless female leads. Now, if said female lead doesn't actually do do anything is another matter. Or a useful female character turning useless once a Guy appears, that's also a different matter. ssjokg said: Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist ? Where did you ever read someone saying this? Is it about Asuna? Her problem is that the the story turns her useless one she has a guy. Is it about what I said about Saber? She's freaking King Arthur, she shouldn't be anywhere near a kitchen. ssjokg said: Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist When was the last time you saw an unattractive female lead? Especially in a romance? ssjokg said: Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist And the problem here isn't that the girls is attractive, it's when you only female character is a DD barely clad sex bomb - this is a problem games often have, but SAO mostly averted it. I mean, it sucks that none of the girls looks unattractive, or even ugly (considering that the setting), but we're used to that. ssjokg said: Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Mmm, no. Nobody ever said that. Unless by loyal you mean 'doesn't think for herself, doesn't do anything without the guy's permission, stays in the kitchen' (Asuna). And when was the last time you saw female infidelity in anime? ssjokg said: Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist When was the last time you saw female infidelity in anime? In fact, a girl character that sleeps around would be the opposite of sexist. ssjokg said: Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there. Of course you do. Your "answers" reek of "It's not like that".Also it reeks of "It's sexist because it is SAO". When I saw female infidelity?Not anime but Nozoki Ana is one series that has female infidelity.Just because you do a bad job at finding "sexist" series,it doesnt mean everyone does. Also female infidelity isnt sexist?The eternal debate of "women are sluts if they sleep with multiple men but for men it is normal to sleep with many women" doesnt ring a bell? Be a feminist as much as you want but try at least to know what the fuck is going on in the world and what you "fight" for. You are a radical feminist you just dont accept it.The fact that just because Asuna stopped to fight(when Kirito also did) you see her as a wife-slave shows a lot. |
ssjokgNov 8, 2012 8:54 AM
ssjokg said: Your "answers" reek of "It's not like that".Also it reeks of "It's sexist because it is SAO". When I saw female infidelity?Not anime but Nozoki Ana is one series that has female infidelity.Just because you do a bad job at finding "sexist" series,it doesnt mean everyone does. Also female infidelity isnt sexist?The eternal debate of "women are sluts if they sleep with multiple men but for men it is normal" doesnt ring a bell. Be a feminist as much as you want but try at least to know what the fuck is going on in the world and what you "fight" for. That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity. "Not anime". Ok. Don't care then. There's a million manga, of course you'd find one where the lead female is promiscuous. But tell me, for I haven't read it, who is calling her sexist? The same guys calling her a 'whore' (your own word)? SAO is sexist, but SAO is sexist because it is SAO is ridiculous - or is the core, the essence, the soul of SAO that Asuna has to be his property slash trophy wifey? If that's the case, then I apologize. |
ssjokg said: Did Kirito and Asuna actually forgive the husband? I thought they just let his former team-mates to take him away because they wanted to deal with him themselves (mete out the punishment among themselves) and Kirito/Asuna just let them do so since they are outsiders and they are no judge anyway. Where did it show that the two "surely forgave the husband for killing his wife"?And the murder case...wow...Kirito and Asuna surely forgave the husband for killing his wife so you are right. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Kiraly said: ssjokg said: Your "answers" reek of "It's not like that".Also it reeks of "It's sexist because it is SAO". When I saw female infidelity?Not anime but Nozoki Ana is one series that has female infidelity.Just because you do a bad job at finding "sexist" series,it doesnt mean everyone does. Also female infidelity isnt sexist?The eternal debate of "women are sluts if they sleep with multiple men but for men it is normal" doesnt ring a bell. Be a feminist as much as you want but try at least to know what the fuck is going on in the world and what you "fight" for. That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity. "Not anime". Ok. Don't care then. There's a million manga, of course you'd find one where the lead female is promiscuous. But tell me, for I haven't read it, who is calling her sexist? The same guys calling her a 'whore' (your own word)? SAO is sexist, but SAO is sexist because it is SAO is ridiculous - or is the core,the essence, the soul of SAO that Asuna has to be his property slash trophy wifey? If that's the case, then I apologize. what the fuck am I reading? Your feminist ideals are bad and you should feel bad. And your facts too. And" who is calling her sexist? The same guys calling her a 'whore' (your own word)?" Eh no.We call her a whore because she is.You call the character/work/writer sexist because she was made like that and being made like that is "sexist"(because it is supposed to be VERY WRONG to have a cheating female char).Big difference between hating a char for what he/she is and calling it sexist because that char is doing something that one of the genders finds unacceptable because "it portrays everyone of the same gender". |
symbv said: It was sarcasm. They didnt.ssjokg said: Did Kirito and Asuna actually forgive the husband? I thought they just let his former team-mates to take him away because they wanted to deal with him themselves (mete out the punishment among themselves) and Kirito/Asuna just let them do so since they are outsiders and they are no judge anyway. Where did it show that the two "surely forgave the husband for killing his wife"?And the murder case...wow...Kirito and Asuna surely forgave the husband for killing his wife so you are right. Kiraly just cant see that if there was sexism in those eps it was towards men since it "portrayed them/us" as assholes that only want slaves as wives. |
| Miss Kiraly, instead of quoting everything you've said I will just say this- Thank you and bravo. Everything you've stated is true and I'm glad someone else is here to back up what I have said and to put it MUCH more eloquently than I did. =) I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. I also love how some guys try to throw around 'feminist' like an insult. =) |
AmberlehNov 8, 2012 9:33 AM
Amberleh said: Actually it boggles my mind that some people can think that SAO is so out-of-the-way-sexist.I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Amberleh said: Miss Kiraly, instead of quoting everything you've said I will just say this- Thank you and bravo. Everything you've stated is true and I'm glad someone else is here to back up what I have said and to put it MUCH more eloquently than I did. =) I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. I also love how guys try to throw around 'feminist' like an insult. =) Backing someone up doesnt make him the right one. Feminist isnt an insult but for radical wannabe feministes like you that rant for no real reason at all it can be used any time of the day.WHY?Sarcasm.You arent a feminist.Kiraly showed that she doesnt even know why she "fights" with ''That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity." and ""Not anime". Ok. Don't care then" FFS you even have people that dislike SAO calling this "SAO is sexist" thing stupid yet you still try to sound as the logical one that can see something.Something that isnt there btw. |
ssjokgNov 8, 2012 9:37 AM
ssjokg said: (because it is supposed to be VERY WRONG to have a cheating female char).Big difference between hating a char for what he/she is and calling it sexist because that char is doing something that one of the genders finds unacceptable because "it portrays everyone of the same gender". I don't understand, is she in a relationship with the guy and keeps cheating on him? That would be morally wrong, yes, but also not "bad" as far as fiction is concerned because it would be something original. However, unless the message is that 'all women cheat' it's not sexist by itself (showing a complex female character who is flawed and cheats is not sexist.) Or is she sleeping around with a bunch of guys, none of whom she's in an exclusive relationship with? I was talking about this case, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and claiming otherwise would be what we call 'sexist'. And thanks, Amberleh :D |
ssjokg said: Amberleh said: Miss Kiraly, instead of quoting everything you've said I will just say this- Thank you and bravo. Everything you've stated is true and I'm glad someone else is here to back up what I have said and to put it MUCH more eloquently than I did. =) I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. I also love how guys try to throw around 'feminist' like an insult. =) Backing someone up doesnt make him the right one. Feminist isnt an insult but for radical wannabe feministes like you that rant for no real reason at all it can be used any time of the day.WHY?Sarcasm.You arent a feminist.Kiraly showed that she doesnt even know why she "fights" with ''That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity." and ""Not anime". Ok. Don't care then" Since I was talking about anime, you bringing up a manga was kinda - pointless. Well, it also proved my point in a roundabout way. And you seem to think that feminism is about rallying against promiscuity, wat? How did you manage to reach that conclusion? Or did you somehow misunderstand 'more than one guy' as 'more than one guy at once'? (There's nothing wrong with the second either, as long as everyone involved consented, ie it's not cheating.) |
Kiraly said: ssjokg said: (because it is supposed to be VERY WRONG to have a cheating female char).Big difference between hating a char for what he/she is and calling it sexist because that char is doing something that one of the genders finds unacceptable because "it portrays everyone of the same gender". I don't understand, is she in a relationship with the guy and keeps cheating on him? That would be morally wrong, yes, but also not "bad" as far as fiction is concerned because it would be something original. However, unless the message is that 'all women cheat' it's not sexist by itself (showing a complex female character who is flawed and cheats is not sexist.) Or is she sleeping around with a bunch of guys, none of whom she's in an exclusive relationship with? I was talking about this case, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and claiming otherwise would be what we call 'sexist'. And thanks, Amberleh :D EXACTLY.Lets assume that Asuna became Kirito's "slave" as you said many times .Was EVERY woman in SAO like that?Does it portray ALL women like that?NO.You make it sound like that so that it can be sexist.YOU are the one that makes SAO seem as a sexist series.Thats why you arent a real feminist. And in case you didnt watch the show I ask you to watch again and show me where ffs did we see that Asuna couldnt do anything without Kirito's permission?Where did she become a slave? Obviously I am talking about a char that has a relationship with another. |
ssjokgNov 9, 2012 5:18 AM
whatever123456 said: If every LN is poorly written, why do you use that as a similarity between Twilight and SAO? Why do you write something about the plot progression if you have no idea about it and don't want to go into specifics? Why didn't you respond to the other ~8 flawed points I pointed out? Like how you compare them just because they are both popular? Or what about the asspulled claim that the author was a teenager when he wrote it? And and and... Because the plot thing is a dead horse by now. It's like arguing about biology with a creationist. He wasn't a teenager? That's what I keep hearing, that he started SAO in highschool. Being popular is a factor. For Twilight, it's the main factor annoying people - why should I ignore it? It's not by itself a bad thing, though. Not all the points I listed are necessarily bad (or good). I tried to be neutral, as much as I could. LNs are a subgenre of novels written for younger people, using simple vocabulary and simple story structures, adapted to middle school (and high school, to a degree) needs and preferences; this does not make it a different medium from novels the way VNs are though. Twilight was written primarily for the same age group LNs are targeted at. And most of your answers (no idea? haters hate is a good argument because everything has haters?) were a bit pointless to answer. |
Kiraly said: ssjokg said: Amberleh said: Miss Kiraly, instead of quoting everything you've said I will just say this- Thank you and bravo. Everything you've stated is true and I'm glad someone else is here to back up what I have said and to put it MUCH more eloquently than I did. =) I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. I also love how guys try to throw around 'feminist' like an insult. =) Backing someone up doesnt make him the right one. Feminist isnt an insult but for radical wannabe feministes like you that rant for no real reason at all it can be used any time of the day.WHY?Sarcasm.You arent a feminist.Kiraly showed that she doesnt even know why she "fights" with ''That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity." and ""Not anime". Ok. Don't care then" Since I was talking about anime, you bringing up a manga was kinda - pointless. Well, it also proved my point in a roundabout way. And you seem to think that feminism is about rallying against promiscuity, wat? How did you manage to reach that conclusion? Or did you somehow misunderstand 'more than one guy' as 'more than one guy at once'? (There's nothing wrong with the second either, as long as everyone involved consented, ie it's not cheating.) No, for real feminists, it isnt pointless. "It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity" Infidelity=adultery. promiscuity=/=adultery, if everyone involved is consented including the ones in relationship. Were in your post did you talk about orgies?Nowhere.Where did I?Nowhere. And that eternal debate has everything to do with adultery. Especially with adultery since a lot of men still think it is ok for men to cheat unlike women. Stop.You make real feminists look bad. |
ssjokg said: Kiraly said: ssjokg said: Amberleh said: Miss Kiraly, instead of quoting everything you've said I will just say this- Thank you and bravo. Everything you've stated is true and I'm glad someone else is here to back up what I have said and to put it MUCH more eloquently than I did. =) I really don't know HOW you people can argue that SAO isn't sexist. It just boggles my mind. There are plenty of anime that I would call sexist that I can understand how others could see them as not sexist, but SAO is NOT one of these. I also love how guys try to throw around 'feminist' like an insult. =) Backing someone up doesnt make him the right one. Feminist isnt an insult but for radical wannabe feministes like you that rant for no real reason at all it can be used any time of the day.WHY?Sarcasm.You arent a feminist.Kiraly showed that she doesnt even know why she "fights" with ''That 'eternal debate' is called 'slut shaming', and feminism is actively fighting against it. It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity." and ""Not anime". Ok. Don't care then" Since I was talking about anime, you bringing up a manga was kinda - pointless. Well, it also proved my point in a roundabout way. And you seem to think that feminism is about rallying against promiscuity, wat? How did you manage to reach that conclusion? Or did you somehow misunderstand 'more than one guy' as 'more than one guy at once'? (There's nothing wrong with the second either, as long as everyone involved consented, ie it's not cheating.) No, for real feminists, it isnt pointless. "It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity" Infidelity=adultery. promiscuity=/=adultery, if everyone involved is consented including the ones in relationship. Were in your post did you talk about orgies?Nowhere.Where did I?Nowhere. And that eternal debate has everything to do with adultery. Especially with adultery since a lot of men still think it is ok for men to cheat unlike women. Stop.You make real feminists look bad. Who are you to even decide what a 'real' feminist is? Feminism isn't just one type of personality or one argument. Feminism encompasses a lot of different viewpoints and people from all walks of life- Think of it as similar to a political party in that way. There are extremists, people who feel pretty strongly but don't man-hate, and then people who have some feminist ideals but are not extreme about them by any means but still see that there is a need for gender equality in some areas. |
ssjokg said: No, for real feminists, it isnt pointless. "It's the people thinking that females should only ever have one guy that are sexist, and this has nothing at all to do with infidelity" Infidelity=adultery. promiscuity=/=adultery, if everyone involved is consented including the ones in relationship. Were in your post did you talk about orgies?Nowhere.Where did I?Nowhere And that eternal debate has everything to do with adultery. Especially with adultery since a lot of men still think it is ok for men to cheat unlike women. ...you're a troll, right? Or you really do lack basic reading comprehension. Infidelity = adultery = wrong. HOWEVER not ignoring it in fiction is a good thing. Also, nothing to do with sexism. The ATTITUDE that women are not allowed to cheat but men are is sexist. However nobody (except for the odd asshole) thinks like this anymore. The ISSUE that exists on the other hand is that men expect women to stay pure virgins, unlike themselves. None of these things have any relevance whatsoever to SAO. Yes, I wasn't talking about orgies anywhere and neither were you. What was your point in mentioning it? Amberleh said: Who are you to even decide what a 'real' feminist is? Feminism isn't just one type of personality or one argument. Feminism encompasses a lot of different viewpoints and people from all walks of life- Think of it as similar to a political party in that way. There are extremists, people who feel pretty strongly but don't man-hate, and then people who have some feminist ideals but are not extreme about them by any means but still see that there is a need for gender equality in some areas. Oh hush, it's obvious you aren't a feminist unless you jump on every strawmen argument presented. |
KiralyNov 8, 2012 10:07 AM
whatever123456 said: Kiraly said: Because the plot thing is a dead horse by now. It's like arguing about biology with a creationist. He wasn't a teenager? That's what I keep hearing, that he started SAO in highschool. Being popular is a factor. For Twilight, it's the main factor annoying people - why should I ignore it? It's not by itself a bad thing, though. Not all the points I listed are necessarily bad (or good). I tried to be neutral, as much as I could. LNs are a subgenre of novels written for younger people, using simple vocabulary and simple story structures, adapted to middle school (and high school, to a degree) needs and preferences; this does not make it a different medium from novels the way VNs are though. Twilight was written primarily for the same age group LNs are targeted at. And most of your answers (no idea? haters hate is a good argument because everything has haters?) were a bit pointless to answer. If you don't want have any arguments for your statements then don't make them. Just because some other trolls like to claim that doesn't make it true, but go ahead and try to find information on Kawahara's age. No, you listed popularity as your first similarity between those two. And claiming that two different things are similar because they are both popular is retarded. You take my word out of context. Your argument was that both shows had fans that said something like "haters gonna hate". This again shows how incredibly weak your whole argument is since that has nothing to do with the show itself and these are found for everything popular. You deliberately try to take what I said out of context instead of giving answers. 80% of your points were things that could be said about anything popular, and the rest was either false or completely unrelated. If you have valid comparisons between those two aside from "they are both popular" and "their protagonists both have the same hair color" go ahead. You missed my entire point. All. Of. It. Wow. I even said that the similarity isn't about themes and story structure (save for the fact that both spend too little time on plot). Well, maybe that's why both you ssjokg love SAO's story so much. Ad hominem? Yes. Arguing against your points would mean rephrasing what I already said. No thanks. |
whatever123456 said: Kiraly said: Because the plot thing is a dead horse by now. It's like arguing about biology with a creationist. He wasn't a teenager? That's what I keep hearing, that he started SAO in highschool. Being popular is a factor. For Twilight, it's the main factor annoying people - why should I ignore it? It's not by itself a bad thing, though. Not all the points I listed are necessarily bad (or good). I tried to be neutral, as much as I could. LNs are a subgenre of novels written for younger people, using simple vocabulary and simple story structures, adapted to middle school (and high school, to a degree) needs and preferences; this does not make it a different medium from novels the way VNs are though. Twilight was written primarily for the same age group LNs are targeted at. And most of your answers (no idea? haters hate is a good argument because everything has haters?) were a bit pointless to answer. If you don't want have any arguments for your statements then don't make them. Just because some other trolls like to claim that doesn't make it true, but go ahead and try to find information on Kawahara's age. No, you listed popularity as your first similarity between those two. And claiming that two different things are similar because they are both popular is retarded. You take my word out of context. Your argument was that both shows had fans that said something like "haters gonna hate". This again shows how incredibly weak your whole argument is since that has nothing to do with the show itself and these are found for everything popular. You deliberately try to take what I said out of context instead of giving answers. 80% of your points were things that could be said about anything popular, and the rest was either false or completely unrelated. If you have valid comparisons between those two aside from "they are both popular" and "their protagonists both have the same hair color" go ahead. Between Twilight and SAO? How about etc, etc. |
Amberleh said: Accel World was a lot better in every single way, which is why I find the idea of a SAO not written when he was 15 puzzling at best. |
| @Kiraly Amberleh And who are you to claim that ANY work of FICTION is sexist without proper facts? ALL of your facts on SAO or the similarity with Twilight is pure speculation since you DONT have facts. You look like trolls more than we do. And I still didnt get answer at "And in case you didnt watch the show I ask you to watch again and show me were ffs did we see that Asuna couldnt do anything without Kirito's permission?Where did she become a slave?" |
| You just said that Kirito isn't a Mary Sue. I don't think there is any point in continuing this. Even other fanboys say he's a Gary Sue. Good day. =) Oh, and by the way, .hack. Might wanna look into it. |
| FYI, I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, just posting my opinion. I don't see why people call SAO sexist. All girls are into main character? Sure. The main girl is a perfect "waifu"* ? Sure. There's an endless amount of stupid fanservice? Sure. The female lead has a "save the princess" arc? Sure. I consider myself a feminist (the equal kind, mind you, NOT "women should stomp on men for fun" kind) but, PLEASE, just HOW is that sexist? The only thing I see is a bunch of perfect/stereotype characters. Just look at the other side. Main lead is a hot and cool "nice guy". He is badass and kind to all girls that are all over him. Really well skilled and somewhat mysterious and does what he can to help others ignoring himself (only ep 1 didn't have this). Even when everything seems awful, he goes through enormous lengths to save his "princess". I can only see a perfect "hubby"*. Yet, no one goes around saying how sexist SAO is because the main guy is a male lead from a typical shoujo. Guess what, HE IS! Just go look around, even though I avoid shoujos, I could name a few with male leads like those. Besides while Kirito is a perfect self-insert character, so is Asuna. I mean, what teen girl wouldn't want to be beautiful, popular, strong, famous for her skills and a good cook, call is sexist or not, most of girls want it anyway, at least most of those I know. NOT TO MENTION get for herself a hottie interested only in her that COMPLETELY ignores (yet not in an offensive way) all other girls. I bet as much money as you want that that's the dream of 80% of teen girls. tl;dr version Yes, SAO DOES fulfll dreams of 80% teen boys in Kirito BUT it also fulfils dreams of 80% teen girls in Asuna. That's why it is so popular, IMO. It gives both genders what they "dream" about and (judging by the rating) they go along with it and embrace it. If you want to call it sexist, then you have to call it sexist "both ways". * used to emphasise unrealistic/ideal/romantic nature of such characters |
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whatever123456 said: Amberleh said: Between Twilight and SAO? How about Debatable. Kirito isn't a Mary Sue in my opinion. Wrong. Your opinion is wrong. Amberleh said: Like? Please give examples from both, Twilight and SAO. The girl that dies, the blacksmith girl, the pet girl, the murder mystery couple, the villain, the guy that died in the first episode, the current villain, his cousin... Actually, every single character, pretty much. Amberleh said: Wrong. LNs are written for middle schoolers or young highschoolers. Most kanji in them that aren't gradeschool level have furigana. Seinen and josei manga, as well as novels, don't. whatever123456 said: Amberleh said: Trapped in an MMO is generic how? Your definition of generic seems to be "something I don't like". Twilight had potential? Really? You missed her point. Generic here means that it wasn't developed to be anything more than generic. whatever123456 said: Amberleh said: That's not an argument because everything has fanboys/girls. I've never seen anyone call SAO deep. I think they might just like it because they find it entertaining? Haha. Just because you don't call it deep doesn't mean that the other fanboys don't. whatever123456 said: Amberleh said: Again, no idea about Twilight but SAO isn't a harem. Yes, I know you said harem elements, multiple girls in love with the protagonist, etc. If Twilight also has those then you have a point here. Then again, many shows have harem elements. SAO isn't a harem? Wow. |
HikaruIzumi said: FYI, I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, just posting my opinion. I don't see why people call SAO sexist. All girls are into main character? Sure. The main girl is a perfect "waifu"* ? Sure. There's an endless amount of stupid fanservice? Sure. The female lead has a "save the princess" arc? Sure. I consider myself a feminist (the equal kind, mind you, NOT "women should stomp on men for fun" kind) but, PLEASE, just HOW is that sexist? The only thing I see is a bunch of perfect/stereotype characters. "I want to take a vacation, guild leader." "You what? I won't let you, because that's how guilds work. Unless your boyfriend defeats me." "Okay, It's not like I'm an awesome fighter myself. I'd rather just cook and sew now that I have a guy to protect me." "Brill! Kirito, you and me, on Asuna's honor." "Bring it on." Later she's even further demoted to damsel in distress. It was your regular old harem adventure before it started focusing on Asuna's evolution from a frontliner to a meek housewife. |
| ^ Neither of the two examples above show sexist intention though. HikaruIzumi said: That's pretty much it, although I would say that SAO fulfills the dream of GIRLS for an ideal boy in Kirito and it fulfills the dream of BOYS for an ideal girl in Asuna (perhaps you wanted to say the same thing, but it reads a bit differently).tl;dr version Yes, SAO DOES fulfll dreams of 80% teen boys in Kirito BUT it also fulfils dreams of 80% teen girls in Asuna. That's why it is so popular, IMO. It gives both genders what they "dream" about and (judging by the rating) they go along with it and embrace it. If you want to call it sexist, then you have to call it sexist "both ways". |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Kiraly said: "I want to take a vacation, guild leader." "You what? I won't let you, because that's how guilds work. Unless your boyfriend defeats me." "Okay, It's not like I'm an awesome fighter myself. I'd rather just cook and sew now that I have a guy to protect me." "Brill! Kirito, you and me, on Asuna's honor." "Bring it on." Later she's even further demoted to damsel in distress. It was your regular old harem adventure before it started focusing on Asuna's evolution from a frontliner to a meek housewife. Did you read the party about "self-insert" characters? Yes, Kirito had to get Asuna from the guild party, what guy doesn't want to protect his girl? (what girl doesn't want to be protected?) Not to mention that Asuna saved Kirito's life later. That makes Kirito the "damsel in distress", doesn't it? Besides, it was a freaking game full of people that were there to fight, heck, I would challenge him for the fun of it too. EDIT: symbv said: That's pretty much it, although I would say that SAO fulfills the dream of GIRLS for an ideal boy in Kirito and it fulfills the dream of BOYS for an ideal girl in Asuna (perhaps you wanted to say the same thing, but it reads a bit differently). Pretty much that but I meant it as everyone* wants to be perfect, just like Kirito and Asuna and everyone wants to have perfect partners just like Kirito had Asuna and Asuna had Kirito. *referring to those 80% of teens, I'm just too lazy to write/copy it each time |
SuiNoByakkoNov 8, 2012 11:10 AM
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whatever123456 said: Kiraly said: SAO isn't a harem? Wow. Correct. Coff* Coff* Argh- May I ask how did you come to that conclusion, whatever? |
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| >calling opinions wrong You people should stop arguing with folks who think like this. |
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HikaruIzumi said: Kiraly said: "I want to take a vacation, guild leader." "You what? I won't let you, because that's how guilds work. Unless your boyfriend defeats me." "Okay, It's not like I'm an awesome fighter myself. I'd rather just cook and sew now that I have a guy to protect me." "Brill! Kirito, you and me, on Asuna's honor." "Bring it on." Later she's even further demoted to damsel in distress. It was your regular old harem adventure before it started focusing on Asuna's evolution from a frontliner to a meek housewife. Did you read the party about "self-insert" characters? Yes, Kirito had to get Asuna from the guild party, what guy doesn't want to protect his girl? (what girl doesn't want to be protected?) Not to mention that Asuna saved Kirito's life later. That makes Kirito the "damsel in distress", doesn't it? Besides, it was a freaking game full of people that were there to fight, heck, I would challenge him for the fun of it too. Nobody seemed to be doing anything for fun in that game, much less dueling. And saving a life isn't exactly jumping in to fight a guy that has (or shouldn't have, welp) no real power over Asuna because she can't decide to just tell him to stfu and let her leave on her own. If you want a regular girl getting saved, do that; SAO set up this strong independent girl just to destroy that as soon as she had screentime again just for the same of some odd fantasy of domination - or I don't even understand why Asuna had to become what she did. HikaruIzumi said: EDIT: symbv said: That's pretty much it, although I would say that SAO fulfills the dream of GIRLS for an ideal boy in Kirito and it fulfills the dream of BOYS for an ideal girl in Asuna (perhaps you wanted to say the same thing, but it reads a bit differently). Pretty much that but I meant it as everyone* wants to be perfect, just like Kirito and Asuna and everyone wants to have perfect partners just like Kirito had Asuna and Asuna had Kirito. *referring to those 80% of teens, I'm just too lazy to write it each time Perfect characters that are written as nothing more than a vehicle for self-insertion are called Mary Sues. Arguing that SAO panders to girls too because Asuna is also a Mary-Sue is... |
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