TV Anime of Manga 'Pupa' Announced

Yause said:


Whoever commissioned the project in the first place. Blaming Deen for the length is about as fair as accusing the voice actors of being too lazy to voice more than five minutes per episode.

Any studio would prefer to work on a longer series with commercial potential. However, if you're hired to make five minute episodes, you make five minute episodes......furthermore, if they give you X amount of money to do it, you try to finish it within X......not 2X or 3X, for which you'll never be reimbursed.

On the other hand, the ball is in Deen's court to produce five satisfying minutes of animation within these limitations (provided that the length is even true).

neontaster said:
You're assuming the limitation was dictated by the franchise owner and not the studio. Deen has concurrent projects and might have only been able to do a shorter form show, and since Pupa seems like the type of project that isn't easy to get made, they might have taken what they could get.

symbv said:
To be honest, I would think that the franchise owner would have much bigger say than the studio in determining the length of the anime.

neontaster said:
In any case, DEEN is a serial offender of making a mess of things, so excuse me if I no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yause said:
Deen rarely joins a production committee, and they're fully capable of doing four shows simultaneously.

It's their way of doing business: staying afloat by taking contracts with low risk. Naturally, lack of investment means that

1) They're especially inclined to stay within budget. A studio that joins a committee might accept an initial loss on production while gambling that there will be a return on investment later on. Deen doesn't play that game.

2) They focus on lower budget productions. If a commissioner wanted a fancy show, they would hire a company specializing in high quality animation. However, the industry has a huge demand for cheap, lower risk anime, and companies like Deen (or ZEXCS, feel, Xebec, etc.) cater to them. These things are made on the cheap because the commissioner wants them cheap.

3) To secure work, they're especially inclined to lowball during negotiations. Bear in mind that they wouldn't be much cheaper than the competition (a low budget show would be low budget in the hands of any studio, but a company like Deen might be slightly lower), but it's enough to make a difference on whether or not they win a contract.

4) They are under less pressure to produce a hit.

At any rate, length is out of the hands of a non-member company.



Correct. Often, their aim is to commission what's essentially a commercial for their franchise. As we can see, the publisher of pupa, Earth Star Entertainment, has produced a lot of 5 minute anime this year: Teekyu, Mangirl, Yama no Susume.

Sekai de Ichiban Tsuyoku Naritai! is the only full length show, so I'm guessing that their focus is on 5 minute promotional anime for their properties.

neontaster said:
Everything you've written here just plays into my dislike of Deen.

neontaster said:
These facts may also be true for other studios, but somehow Deen manages to continuously disappoint me and others. So I am not necessarily saying it is Deen's fault that it is 5 minutes long, but I will certainly blame Deen if it isn't a good show, and it being 5 minutes long is already one foot into awfulness.

neontaster said:

Ultimately, at the end of the day, the studio takes the glory or the flak for the product they make. If Deen didn't have confidence in this show they shouldn't have made it. But they did make it, and therefore if it sucks, I will blame them. Seems perfectly reasonable and logical.

symbv said:
How did what we wrote played into your dislike of Deen? If what we wrote could really add to your dislike of Deen, that would only indicate you hold such a strong opinion that even neutral opinion or shortcomings that could not be attributed to Deen is being interpreted by you as counting negatively against Deen.

So by your logic, EVEN THOUGH Deen cannot be blamed for doing this anime as 5 min show, just because 5 min is awful and because Deen has always managed to disappoint you, so these two must add together and to be counted further against Deen? That just does not make any sense AT ALL.

You calling it 'perfectly reasonable and logical' so I hope you are really being perfectly reasonable and logical here. So far we have not even seen the product, and what you tried to blame Deen for earlier we have proved that the accusation makes little sense, and still you are saying here that what we said played into your dislike, so are you still trying to blame Deen about this anime? If so, how is it that you are being "perfectly reasonable and logical"???

neontaster said:
Untrue. I enjoyed Rozen Maiden quite a bit, as well as other Deen shows, so it isn't like I have a predetermined notion that anything they do will be bad. And besides, Yause detailed their business practices: They don't take creative risks, they focus on lower budget productions, and they lowball offers to secure projects (that they then make poorly with their low budget). I am not sure why disliking that kind of business strategy is misguided. I'm sure they have solid business reasoning behind it, but I am not a Deen shareholder. I am an anime consumer and if the product is cheap and risk-free, I see less chances of liking it.

neontaster said:
I didn't say they can't be blamed. I said they aren't necessarily to blame. It is true that I don't know a lot about the inner workings of the business aspects of anime, but I do know a thing or two about the inner working of the business aspects of other media, and I can foresee a scenario in which they are "to blame" for it. And again - I am a consumer. If Studio Deen puts out a shitty show, I don't really care if they had a valid excuse for why it was shitty. Ultimately they are responsible for their own projects.

neontaster said:

See what I said above. Look, take this example: There is a new Godzilla movie being made in Hollywood now by Legendary and Gareth Edwards. If that movie is terrible, nobody will blame Touhou, EVEN if they dictated some kind of rules that were the cause of the movie being terrible. People will blame the filmmakers because that's who made it.
So, if Pupa is amazing, then Deen will get all the credit. In that case, why shouldn't it get all the blame if it isn't amazing?

symbv said:
I read what Yause said as Deen is being competitive and focuses on its competitive advantage, which means making shows that are not risky and high profile. I think this is all very fine as a business and calling that it "played into your dislike" of Deen seems to indicate that you hold an opinion of what studio should be liked and disliked.

symbv said:
You seem to try to downplay what you said earlier: 5 min is awful ! Deen to blame! but could not let go of the notion that there is still something blame worthy to be placed upon Deen, otherwise why did you still say they "aren't necessarily to blame" even though it is fully clear your initial charge (the 5 min length) has nothing to with Deen?? And your argument about "shitty show" does not stand even in the line of the argument here as we have not even seen the show.

symbv said:
Yeah, so why not hold your "shitty show" line until we actually have a show to comment on? Why mix it with the bunch of comments you made about how you dislike Deen or disappointed by Deen in the past?

neontaster said:

I hold a studio responsible for the product it puts out. Whether or not it was their DECISION to make it 5 minutes is irrelevant. It is still their name on that product.

neontaster said:
Because I'm a fan expressing his frustration, not someone writing an anime business article. The show is on an indefinite delay, there is zero info out there, and the little info we do get is discouraging. This isn't how you properly run a project and that's the studio's fault as far as I'm concerned EVEN if they have some kind excuse.

symbv said:
This is where you have gone decisively wrong. You can hold Deen for the directing or the animation or even the adaptation choice (but not all come from the studio) but saying just because it is Deen's name on the product then it is irrelevant that it is not their decision that it is a 5 min anime is absolutely Unreasonable and Illogical.

And you act like an emotional fan acting against rational thought and logic here because you are going indiscriminate on placing the blame and worse, keep insisting it is the studio's fault EVEN AFTER you were told certain outcome has nothing to do with the studio.

neontaster said:
That's how the entertainment world works. Every creator has things outside their control, but those things are still on their backs as the creators. If some director has an actor in the movie that they didn't want there, they will still get credit if the actor's performance is good and blame if it isn't. The point isn't whether or not it will be 5 minutes. It is whether or not it will be good, and because it is 5 minutes I have a hard time believing that it will, and THAT will be Deen's fault. If they didn't think they could do it, they would have turned down the project. But they think they can and therefore it is their responsibility if it works or not.

symbv said:
Nyah, this is how you tried to impose your understanding of "the entertainment world" into this part of entertainment world which is anime industry. No one in Japan would blame Deen for having a 5 min show for Pupa.

And your example of "directors being blamed for actor's performance" just does not apply there. The case here is more like you heard there will be a TV series which you find very interesting and you also heard the TV station commissioned a certain studio to make the work. But instead of a series composed of 1-hour episodes, it turned out it is going to consist of 30-min (or 15-min) episodes. Now do you blame the TV station who creates and will own the franchise, or the studio commissioned to make the series??

And it is hard to argue that it makes sense to blame Deen just because you have your expectation messed up by the revelation that it is a 5 min anime. And aren't you holding a particular bias against 5 min anime as you seem to believe that now that it is a 5 min anime then it must be bad - but should we judge a short anime with exactly the same standard and expectation as a 25 min anime? Apparently you are holding that since 5 min anime is not going to be good and since Deen accepts an offer of making a 5min anime then it must be Deen's fault. So it is even worse than what I said earlier: Not only you are being an prejudiced anime fan on the matter of studio, but also on the matter of short anime.

neontaster said:
You keep harping on the 5-minute thing even though it isn't the main issue. The main issue is whether or not the show will be GOOD, and if it isn't - THAT'S Deen's fault. The fact that it is 5 minutes only increases my suspicion that it won't be good.

neontaster said:
Of course I am prejudiced against 5 minute anime! Why shouldn't I be? I like complex and involved and detailed stories and 5 minute episodes don't deliver that. Does that mean I can never enjoy a 5 minute show? No. But it definitely means that any 5 minute show has to work hard to overcome my low expectations of such a truncated format.

neontaster said:

So yes - I am totally biased against Deen and against short anime, but both of those biases are based on past experience.

neontaster said:

Conversely, I have zero interest in Super Sonico, but when I heard it was being made by White Fox, suddenly I was interested. Why? Because historically White Fox make stuff that I like and is of good quality. Studio Deen hasn't earned that kind of credit in my mind.

symbv said:
The reason why I keep coming back to the 5 min thing is because you have been linking the 5 min thing with your holding Deen at some fault as you said "It is whether or not it will be good, and because it is 5 minutes I have a hard time believing that it will, and THAT will be Deen's fault. If they didn't think they could do it, they would have turned down the project."

symbv said:
Well, if you know it is your preference and taste can only be best delivered in long episode then the question is less about whether the studio makes a good show of 5 min anime or even whether it should have turned down a 5 min anime project because with your preference it is a forgone conclusion that any 5 min anime is no good for you but it still stretches argument that you should thus extend your personal preference to deem any 5 min anime to be no good before the product is even released, and proceed to jump to conclusion that because Deen accepts such offer then it must be no good as well.

symbv said:
At least you finally come clean now about your personal prejudice instead of hiding behind pretense about being "perfectly reasonable and logical".

symbv said:
If you want to use studio to adjust your expectation about an anime, then AT LEAST learn which part of the project can be attributed to the studio and which part is not so much attributable. Length of anime is not attributable to the studio, not even some of the adaptation choice (like adding filler or changing the story from original material because it has a lot more to do with the key staff than the studio itself).

neontaster said:
Again, that's like me blaming a movie for having a bad ending and you saying "it's the screenwriter's fault for writing that in the script, not the filmmaker's fault for shooting it." I don't see things that way. The success or failure of a project is on the shoulders of the creator, and Deen putting out a 5 minute anime is their decision and no one else's. Like I said - they could have said no to it, but they said yes, so it is their decision. Your theory is that they had no choice in the matter because it was dictated by the franchise owner, but even if that's true, they still agreed to actually make it.

neontaster said:
I said that it made me pessimistic, not that it would definitely be bad.

neontaster said:
It is perfectly reasonable and logical to not have faith in people and formats that have disappointed you before.

neontaster said:

If they said yes to it, then it is also attributable to them. If I say to you "I'll give you a job if you rob this bank" and you do, no one will care if you say "what was I supposed to do? If I didn't rob the bank I wouldn't get a job." Same here. Let's say your scenario is correct - Studio Deen is approached to make a 5 minute Pupa anime and the 5 minute thing is dictated in advance. The moment they say yes, they share the blame for it in my mind. It is their name on the product. It's like me saying "I don't like the iPhone 5s and it's Apple's fault" and you would say "well, it's actually Foxcon that produced faulty parts" or "it was the software department that messed this up so you can't blame Apple as a whole."

neontaster said:

Again, that's like me blaming a movie for having a bad ending and you saying "it's the screenwriter's fault for writing that in the script, not the filmmaker's fault for shooting it." I don't see things that way. The success or failure of a project is on the shoulders of the creator, and Deen putting out a 5 minute anime is their decision and no one else's. Like I said - they could have said no to it, but they said yes, so it is their decision. Your theory is that they had no choice in the matter because it was dictated by the franchise owner, but even if that's true, they still agreed to actually make it.

symbv said:
As I said your example does not apply in this case and you still fail to understand that Deen could not possibly to be responsible for the 5 min decision. How could a studio, just by accepting an offer to make a 5 min anime, be responsible for the initial decision that the anime is going to have 5 min? And if the anime is 5 min and you are prejudiced to dislike 5 min anime in the first place, why blame the studio for accepting the offer to make 5 min anime? You are trying so hard to leave blame at the table of Deen that you fail to be reasonable AT ALL and sound absolutely absurd in saying that Deen has to shoulder at least part of responsibility of Pupa being a 5 min anime. I guess in your twisted logic, the best way is for all the studios to refuse to take the offer because the offer is on making 5 min anime and then you will be happy? But sorry the industry does not work this way.

symbv said:
Yeah, but you are also meaning that just because it is a 5 min anime you now find it unlikely you are going to like this anime, even without seeing the anime itself, right?

symbv said:
And your "perfectly reasonable and logical" part only extends this far. The argument of how much to blame the studio show no reason or logic from your side unfortunately.

symbv said:
And this is your biggest problem - just by agreeing to make 5 min anime the studio should thus shoulder the blame. By the amount you rant about the studio, one could conclude that you are holding Deen solely responsible, despite what you claimed, while the fact is that the franchise owner should shoulder most if not all the blame, which you only mentioned in passing if at all. This just goes to show the bias and prejudice you hold and how unreasonable you are in your thinking. The example you gave about just goes to illustrate my point: How seriously can one compare a decision to accept an offer of making 5 min anime with an offer to commit a violent crime of robbing a bank??

symbv said:
No, it is not, your example here is just the same as "director/filmmaker being blamed for actor's performance". The filmmaker has a say on the output from the actors or the screenwriter. Here the length of anime is more like a project constraint placed at the very beginning. Which is why my example of TV channel making a series with shorter episodes is appropriate but yours not.

neontaster said:
I know the industry doesn't work that way, but in that case they don't get a pass because it wasn't their initial decision. If they accept every single project they can, then they also have to face the music if it fails. I don't understand what you expect me to say. "Oh this anime was awful but it isn't the studio's fault because they only made it, they didn't create the idea"? That makes no sense to me.

neontaster said:
I really want it to be good. The premise seems like something I'd enjoy and I fully intend to give it a fair shot. I just don't know how they would make it work, but I was never one of those people who actively search for things to hate.

neontaster said:
Perhaps I am operating out of a logic that was formed by the way Western entertainment is produced, but even anime studios seem to stand at the forefront. I'd like to do an experiment - ask 100 anime fans "who made Gundam?" I am willing to wager that the most common answer you will hear is "Sunrise." Who made Eureka Seven? Bones. Etc.

neontaster said:
but in the end the result is still that plenty of people dislike Studio Deen (again, I am talking from my personal experiences conversing with other anime fans), and a track record like that makes me think that there is some kind of fundamental problem with the way they operate. I am told by more knowledgeable people that some people from Shaft recently moved to Deen, which made things better.

neontaster said:
It's an extreme example, sure. Let me try something more mild: Let's say you work for an advertising company and a client wants you to make him an ad campaign. He gives you detailed instructions and you do it and it fails utterly. The industry will look at it as a failure of the advertising company, NOT the client, because the thing you are judging is not the product (which in this case would be the story and characters of Pupa), but rather the ad campaign itself (which in this case would be the Pupa anime specifically). Now, in reality the failure wouldn't really be yours as an advertiser because you did what the client wanted, but outside observers will still hold you responsible and that isn't an unreasonable position because you put your name on it and it failed.

neontaster said:
If a TV channel put on a show that had 10 minute episodes, and that ultimately caused the show to fail, then yes, I would absolutely also blame all parties involved because they should all be responsible for the thing they put out there.

neontaster said:
but again - having a bad track record means that people don't cut you a lot of slack..

symbv said:
I think we should separate your current issue with Deen from the situation when they face the music if it fails. The anime fandom, particularly in the west, too often put the blame on studios when the issue is not with them. Saying that they will need to face such misguided view does not mean that you should also subscribe to this view. In fact I would say that your thinking is one that can often make no sense because if it is an adaptation and the studio is not the franchise owner nor part of the production committee, then it is far too simplistic to say that "Oh this anime was awful and it must be the studio's fault" without looking into more details about which part of the anime was awful. Your view is just the usual simplistic "let's blame studio for whatever fails for the anime" which unfortunately is far too prevalent around here.

symbv said:
You want it to be good but turns pessimistic when you heard it will be a 5 min anime, right? This just means that the mere news of it being 5 min predisposes your expectation to turn negative about how the anime will turn out for you.

symbv said:
If you asked "who made" then of course the studio is the answer, but if you ask "who owns" then the answer could be different if the anime is an adaptation. All the examples you quoted here are not adaptation. How about asking anime fans "who owns Shingeki no Kyojin" or "who owns Magi" ?

symbv said:
Personally I would also admit myself that I find quite many of shows made by Deen to be uninspiring, but this is one thing, and it should never become a factor of influencing the judgement of how much Deen should take blame for the outcome of Pupa being a 5 min anime.

symbv said:
The bottom line is whether the requirement from the client is reasonable. If it is unreasonable (say, the budget is super low) then of course you can say that the studio should decline the offer at the beginning, but this is not the case here: Why should the constraint that the episodes being 5 min long becomes a sufficient reason for Deen to reject the offer? Why do you think that Deen accepting it must mean that it thus should take the blame?

symbv said:
Well, but here we do not even have the show to talk about, and you are already assigning blame, and doing it mostly on the basis of Deen accepting the format of 5 min anime.

neontaster said:
At least learn where you are being unreasonably harsh in appropriating slack you are withholding from cutting. Don't over-compensating by blaming it for things that they should not have been blamed.

neontaster said:
So here's my question - are you saying that Studio Deen's role here is reduced to something like an animation subcontractor? Like how ILM did the CG for Pacific Rim? It's not an ILM movie, they were just hired to do special effects? If that's the case then yes, I guess they should only be held directly accountable for the animation quality and everything else falls on the production committee or Earth Star or both.

neontaster said:

I started turning pessimistic when it got delayed for an unknown amount of time. The fact that the delay is over a 5 minute anime makes me more worried because you'd think that less material like this wouldn't present substantial production difficulties.

neontaster said:
And I disagree that being pessimistic predisposes me. I personally admit errors in prejudgment all the time. Samurai Flamenco is one of my favorite shows this season and when I first heard about it I wasn't interested at all. Like I said before, I'm not one of those people who actively searches for things to hate.

neontaster said:

What I meant is that in my personal experience people tend to remember which studio was behind an anime more than they do what publisher owned the rights or who was on the production committee, especially since production committees are essentially ad-hoc entities for each show. So even if Deen had very little or even nothing to do with the decision-making process, in 5 years if you ask someone about Pupa, chances are they'll remember it was Deen, but not necessarily Earth Star, and definitely not the "Pupa Production Committee" because that's just a random name.

neontaster said:

If the show is bad, it'll still end up in my list of Deen shows that I don't like. Is that fair? Maybe it isn't.

neontaster said:

So how about this - if the show is brilliant, does that mean I can't give Deen any credit for that either?

neontaster said:

As I've been saying - once again I am hearing disappointing news about a show, and once again Studio Deen is involved. I have to assume that this isn't some kind of cosmic coincidence..

neontaster said:

Hell, do we even know if this was originally going to be 5 minutes? Since this info is only coming out now, is it possible that it was originally meant to be full length and was reduced due to some kind of production difficulties? Because that could totally be Deen's fault. Or not.

neontaster said:
Yup. It's a 5 minute anime. Way to go, everyone involved EXCEPT Studio DEEN, which had nothing to do with this decision and shoulders zero blame for anything.

http://seventhstyle.com/2013/11/02/pupa-is-only-a-5-minute-anime/

neontaster said:
Again - this isn't politics and I don't need to be fair or reasonable or impartial. I am relaying to you my impressions AT THIS STAGE. If creative differences are to blame for the delay, then it is certainly partly Deen's doing, and the delay was always my main concern.

neontaster said:
You seem to be so focused on the 3 words in my original post that you shut out everything else I said.

neontaster said:
Can we go back to focusing on the fact that I still think they will make a mess of this, which was why I named them in the original post to begin with.

symbv said:
Well, who say politics will be fair and reasonable and impartial?? I don't mind you being unreasonable or prejudiced but at least say it so when you first expressed your frustration instead of covering in some so-called "perfectly reasonable and logical" deduction that is actually based on misguided understanding of how the industry works and your personal preference and bias.

symbv said:
It is not "shut out", because everything else you said 1) could trace back to your original post assigning the blame to Deen about the 5 min anime 2) the more you tried to argue it is reasonable and logical (with many misguided analogy and inappropriate examples) you made your case even less convincing - if I had indeed shut out what you said I would not even be able to point out the fallacy in your argument one by one.

symbv said:
Sure, and just bear in mind that what you think how bad Deen will make this anime indeed has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a lot of things you are now unhappy with this project, definitely not the length of the anime for one. And I would also point out that among "everything else" you said not much is actually about how you think "they will make a mess of this".

neontaster said:
But it isn't because I don't like the people at Deen. I don't like their actual work so hearing they are involved in a project reduces the statistical chance that I will like it based on past performance. That in itself does not seem illogical or unreasonable. Regardless of how much say they have in the production process, their hand will still be apparent in the final product, for better or worse.

neontaster said:

For someone who complains that people have misguided notions about the anime industry, you don't do a particularly good job of explaining how and why they are misguided. It took me a long time to understand the point you were getting at (which was that in this case Deen's role in the production was relegated to drawing things and putting them in a row so they look like they are moving and that's about it), and once I did, I conceded the point about the length. The only point of contention in this argument stemmed from my misunderstanding of the scope of Deen's role in the production. If you read the debate again knowing this you will understand the points I was trying to make better IMO.

symbv said:
That is perfectly fine. I have no objection about it. I was just saying that at least if you want to blame Deen or criticize Deen, pick the relevant thing that Deen is really responsible.

The reason why I skipped the details is because Yause and my early posts already gave quite a lot of information about what an anime studio does. It rather seems to me that you either did not listen or refused to listen with the result that you keep sticking to your theory about how much Deen is responsible, even coming up with the inapplicable "Apple should be responsible for Foxconn's fault" example very late in the debate, and it is what I found frustrating.

neontaster said:

I went back and looked and he mentioned it briefly but then we got to talking about the other things he mentioned and it was never addressed again.

symbv said:
I think the information there is quite detailed. Besides, when we said that Deen could not be held responsible for the length of anime because it was determined way at the beginning by the franchise owner (and the production committee) it should be clear that by implication the studio would not have the say over the matter - which would mean that the studio does not have the same power as your usual "creator" as you perceive it to be. In fact several times you even admitted to such possibility but you always added the part like "even if Deen has no say, it still needs to share the blame".

neontaster said:
Yes but when I said that I was specifically referring to the blame if it is a bad show, not the blame that it is 5 minutes.

symbv said:
You muddied the water by saying that the 5min made you pessimistic and that because Deen accepted the offer it has to take the blame. The impression, since the first post you made about the 5 min revelation, has been that the blame is to be assigned now - any mention of IF and Future seems to be more like afterthought instead.

neontaster said:
That's quite the assumption considering that I said more than once that I have enjoyed some Deen shows and that I don't actively look for things to hate

symbv said:
You did say it 2 times perhaps (about enjoying some Deen shows) but unfortunately it always came with qualifications as to why Deen needs to take the blame for the 5 min length (even at a very late stage - the Apple / Foxconn example again came to mind) and this you did more often than whatever limited praises you gave to Deen, which is why I said you have muddied the water.

neontaster said:

But the Apple/Foxconn thing is a perfect example for our misunderstanding because I imagined Deen like Apple in that analogy, not like Foxconn.

symbv said:
If that Apple/Foxconn had come early in our discussion I would have no issue. That it came very late after more than a dozen of post exchanges was what got me frustrated.

phoenixalia said:
Please, Winter. Give me my Pupa anime, :'( Symbv, does anhyone know why it was delayed?

symbv said:
The official twitter also confirms Jan 2014 schedule
https://twitter.com/pupa_anime/statuses/401230082850582528

neontaster said:


Was the news item about it being 5 minutes ever confirmed or refuted? Do we still not know?