merryfistmas said: Gesu- said: The multitude of American military films that promote the military industrial complex and portray us as the good guys in everything we do and demonizing other cultures. Those pander to right wing extremists.That echci thing was an example. What I meant was that everything is made with a target audience in mind. Now you could say that Elfen Lied panders to people who like gore, but in the end maybe it was meant to be just that ; a mindless gorefest. I won't be able to fully understand what you're trying to say if you don't have an example for it.. Superhero movies are usually an excuse to put superheroes on screen with no substance. People even admit to enjoying them simply because they want to see X hero on the big screen (I'm not trying to say this is wrong or that you shouldn't do it btw) Ellen Lied, at least what I've seen of it, is composed entirely of pandering, and saying it was meant as a pointless gorefest does not excuse this, it just means its' problems are far more fundamental. Most of the time it's harmless, and if you fine with it then good for you, you enjoy your pandering to the fullest, but some ideas are downright immoral. Now, that is pretty rare, and I'm mostly talking about shows with shit writing kept afloat by tits/car porn/etc. if it offers nothing else well, I'm sure you know my opinion on that. Of course I'm not immune to this, I love fight scenes and will watch something for that alone of the fights are truly exceptional, ButIf a show only offers fan service it better be the best goddamn fan service I've ever seen. It's just that even if you're gonna be using that word you'll have to use it carefully. Just because someone doesn't see the appeal in something doesn't mean that it's pandering. They should try and see if there really is some kind of substance behind what they're criticizing first. I remember CherryLover saying that Snk was a 'male pandering show' because it has 'violence' in it (assuming that there's absolutely no female on this planet who doesn't like violence). The term itself is way too ambiguous. |
Mamster-P said: kinda sucks when you love something yet 90% of ppl online who want to talk about it spend most of their time complaining.. just saying And would you say your actions are helping in any way? No one is going to listen to you as you probably won't change your mind either no matter how many times either side likes to repeat their dogma. There are people who complain to annoy others so your aggravation facilitates their perpetual complaints. I recommend rather than seeking out people in the general forums to just find people who share similar attitudes and just talk to them through the wall comments (which you already do), or your own special groups. |
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| @Gesu- having some merit doesn't mean there isn't pandering, and again, people's misuse of the term doesn't change anything. |
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Suryonets said: Mamster-P said: kinda sucks when you love something yet 90% of ppl online who want to talk about it spend most of their time complaining.. just saying And would you say your actions are helping in any way? No one is going to listen to you as you probably won't change your mind either no matter how many times either side likes to repeat their dogma. There are people who complain to annoy others so your aggravation facilitates their perpetual complaints. I recommend rather than seeking out people in the general forums to just find people who share similar attitudes and just talk to them through the wall comments (which you already do), or your own special groups. um...... no...... ill continue to engage in extreme masochism cause im someone who likes to get his opinions out there. besides, i get plenty of positive feedback from these threads, arguably much more than negative |
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Mamster-P said: i get plenty of positive feedback from these threads, arguably much more than negative That is fine, but it is still only from people who were already the same as you. |
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Suryonets said: Mamster-P said: i get plenty of positive feedback from these threads, arguably much more than negative That is fine, but it is still only from people who were already the same as you. i have enlightened people who disagree, thats always a bonus lol |
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Zeus- said: CodeBlazeFate said: nah, I think it's fine exactly for this reasonIf it is pandering in the way that most people who aren't part of that pandered niche group find it obnoxious, then it's a negative, therefore s criticism, because it makes most other viewers not happy with what there watching, and instead mindlessly panders to a specific audience. That's part of the reason these harem-school-battle shows have been rated so poorly, well, except for Chivalry, but that's because from what I've heard, it actually tried some new things. when someone's writing a show with an audience in mind, of course they'll put in things that the said audience would like if someone not in the target audience watches it, of course they wouldn't like the same stuff it's like a horror fan getting upset about watching a romantic comedy because it doesn't have enough deaths and too many cute romantic moments Well, I'm referring to something that only few audiences could tolerate, like tasteless fan service scenes for the sake of it (with no actual comedy attached to it) in a high school harem (I get that it's ecchi, but at least give some decent context or reason for the ecchi or a valid reason for it to be there, like for actual comedy that isn't just main character gets slapped for seeing girl undressed by accident or just random ecchi because pandering) or pandering to gore lovers by making an edgy show in which everyone dies for no good reason but blood. Stuff like that. It's like if you go to a fast food restaurant and order a salad menu, most competent ones have it, but the overly pandering ones get disgusting about their pandering and offer no diversity or anything you like, and only what a small group of diehards can enjoy. Hell, they could even sneer at you for expecting something. That's when pandering is bad. Also, a lot of these pandering moments tend to be very lazy, just going "HEY! BEWBZ!" to grab the audience's attention, when it only turns on a few prople and turns off most others who expected a punchline or anything other than just BEWBZ for the sake of it. |
CodeBlazeFateJul 2, 2016 8:09 PM
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zal said: darkbritishmagic said: Every show has a target audience, and I do agree it's a valid observation, but I don't think it should be used as a criticism. GamerDLM said: It implies merits and flaws of similar shows that have the same audience and appeal but in a shorter phrasing, but like most criticisms it need argumentation and explanation in order to be clearer what is meant by it.Except it's almost exclusively used with a negative connotation from what I've seen. Whether it has the option to be a neutral observation doesn't mean it will ever actually be a neutral one. Another similar example would be wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment based on its description and definition is not a negative thing but it's usually used as a negative connotation to bash a series for not appealing to the individual making the comment. Wish fulfillment and pandering have become buzzwords anyway.People who use it to bash on a show mostly use it to look smart. |
darkbritishmagicJul 3, 2016 1:47 AM
merryfistmas said: Gesu- said: The multitude of American military films that promote the military industrial complex and portray us as the good guys in everything we do and demonizing other cultures. Those pander to right wing extremists.That echci thing was an example. What I meant was that everything is made with a target audience in mind. Now you could say that Elfen Lied panders to people who like gore, but in the end maybe it was meant to be just that ; a mindless gorefest. I won't be able to fully understand what you're trying to say if you don't have an example for it.. Superhero movies are usually an excuse to put superheroes on screen with no substance. People even admit to enjoying them simply because they want to see X hero on the big screen (I'm not trying to say this is wrong or that you shouldn't do it btw) Ellen Lied, at least what I've seen of it, is composed entirely of pandering, and saying it was meant as a pointless gorefest does not excuse this, it just means its' problems are far more fundamental. Most of the time it's harmless, and if you fine with it then good for you, you enjoy your pandering to the fullest, but some ideas are downright immoral. Now, that is pretty rare, and I'm mostly talking about shows with shit writing kept afloat by tits/car porn/etc. if it offers nothing else well, I'm sure you know my opinion on that. Of course I'm not immune to this, I love fight scenes and will watch something for that alone of the fights are truly exceptional, ButIf a show only offers fan service it better be the best goddamn fan service I've ever seen. I wouldn't compare fight scenes to just sticking a superhero on the screen. Avengers was crap, but people enjoyed it because it had their favorite characters. The creators didn't have to put any effort. It was enough having the actors acting these superheroes. Fight scenes demand attention to detail, cheography and all that stuff. They're never all the same. Good action scenes are like a violent dance. There's rhythm and flow to the movements, the violence feels impactful. It's an art. Dead Leaves is mostly action, but most stories don't have such wacky set-pieces. |
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Suryonets said: they just target moe, ecchi, sometimes shounen, etc they aren't fooling anyone when they use the term. idk why people can't get over the fact that people really fucking love cute and sexy things to be thrown into media, as if wanting to look at those things isn't part of human nature and harmless Being part of human nature and harmless does not stop it from being annoying especially since a lot of medium appeals to that demographic. After all, acting like one's opinion matters on an internet forum is part of human nature and harmless, but still annoying to gaze at. People like complaining about insignificant things. You like complaining about people complaining. Complaining is fun. I'm sorry to hear that. I never knew ignoring anime outside of your comfort zone was this hard for you. Here, have some of these.  |
TheBrainintheJar said: I completely agree with this, I was comparing fights to sexual fan service though. There is an art to both. Although I guess it was inaccurate to say "I'm not immune to this" after giving examples of pandering and then giving an example of something that requires a level of skill.merryfistmas said: The multitude of American military films that promote the military industrial complex and portray us as the good guys in everything we do and demonizing other cultures. Those pander to right wing extremists. Superhero movies are usually an excuse to put superheroes on screen with no substance. People even admit to enjoying them simply because they want to see X hero on the big screen (I'm not trying to say this is wrong or that you shouldn't do it btw) Ellen Lied, at least what I've seen of it, is composed entirely of pandering, and saying it was meant as a pointless gorefest does not excuse this, it just means its' problems are far more fundamental. Most of the time it's harmless, and if you fine with it then good for you, you enjoy your pandering to the fullest, but some ideas are downright immoral. Now, that is pretty rare, and I'm mostly talking about shows with shit writing kept afloat by tits/car porn/etc. if it offers nothing else well, I'm sure you know my opinion on that. Of course I'm not immune to this, I love fight scenes and will watch something for that alone of the fights are truly exceptional, ButIf a show only offers fan service it better be the best goddamn fan service I've ever seen. I wouldn't compare fight scenes to just sticking a superhero on the screen. Avengers was crap, but people enjoyed it because it had their favorite characters. The creators didn't have to put any effort. It was enough having the actors acting these superheroes. Fight scenes demand attention to detail, cheography and all that stuff. They're never all the same. Good action scenes are like a violent dance. There's rhythm and flow to the movements, the violence feels impactful. It's an art. Dead Leaves is mostly action, but most stories don't have such wacky set-pieces. |
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Zeus- said: CodeBlazeFate said: okay, so you're upset about pandering in shows where you don't expect it, to be specific? I dunno about you, but most anime of that type, I kind of expect itWell, I'm referring to something that only few audiences could tolerate, like tasteless fan service scenes for the sake of it (with no actual comedy attached to it) in a high school harem (I get that it's ecchi, but at least give some decent context or reason for the ecchi or a valid reason for it to be there, like for actual comedy that isn't just main character gets slapped for seeing girl undressed by accident or just random ecchi because pandering) or pandering to gore lovers by making an edgy show in which everyone dies for no good reason but blood. Stuff like that. It's like if you go to a fast food restaurant and order a salad menu, most competent ones have it, but the overly pandering ones get disgusting about their pandering and offer no diversity or anything you like, and only what a small group of diehards can enjoy. Hell, they could even sneer at you for expecting something. That's when pandering is bad. Also, a lot of these pandering moments tend to be very lazy, just going "HEY! BEWBZ!" to grab the audience's attention, when it only turns on a few prople and turns off most others who expected a punchline or anything other than just BEWBZ for the sake of it. people who go into High School DXD know what they're getting into, lmao No. It's not that I'm upsets hen bad pandering rolls around, it's just that, if the pandering is tasteless, mindless, and has no real point, then it's bad pandering. With Highschool DXD, it knows you came for boobs and doesn't try to randomly slip some in there for no good reason. It's titled as such so there is almost always a reason for it, that being, so it could live up to its title. In violent action shows, people are brutally killed because you came to watch stuff like that. In a Highschool show, you don't expect a lot of ecchi so when it happens out of nowhere, you'd expect some decent context and or humor to make it worthwhile, just like in a slice of life, since death isn't expected so much there, you want some decent context behind it so it doesn't seem like you're pandering to another demographic by screwing with your own. It's when you get to that point, that pandering becomes bad. Context and execution separate good pandering from bad pandering. If it has no good reason to be there, or if it directly sacrifices the target audience's enjoyment for the sake of pandering to another. |
CodeBlazeFateJul 3, 2016 3:52 AM
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merryfistmas said: TheBrainintheJar said: I completely agree with this, I was comparing fights to sexual fan service though. There is an art to both. Although I guess it was inaccurate to say "I'm not immune to this" after giving examples of pandering and then giving an example of something that requires a level of skill.I wouldn't compare fight scenes to just sticking a superhero on the screen. Avengers was crap, but people enjoyed it because it had their favorite characters. The creators didn't have to put any effort. It was enough having the actors acting these superheroes. Fight scenes demand attention to detail, cheography and all that stuff. They're never all the same. Good action scenes are like a violent dance. There's rhythm and flow to the movements, the violence feels impactful. It's an art. Dead Leaves is mostly action, but most stories don't have such wacky set-pieces. The difference between sexual fanservice and fight scenes is that sex-fanservice is rarely necessary, and can be done outside of it. A fight scene is often necessary to progress the story, even if just for the heroes to the move to the next stage. The fight can have psychological developments, or it can be a puzzle. It also needs movements and characters for it to be engrossing, so it needs a story around it. How does sex fanservice contribute to a story? How is showing the character in lingerie can advance the story? Also, it can easily be done in posters and artbooks instead of in the show. There's no difference between the posters for Freezing and the sexystuff in the anime. Now, I do think sexy characters are their own artform. I just find they work better as static art and don't like it when anime pauses to show me how sexy the character is. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: It can tell us something about the characters, like how Kanbaru is confident and likes teasing Araragi ao he'll slip and Hitagi will kill him and Kanbaru can swoop in and devour that delicious tsundere fish taco. "Girl who likes being naked" is usually just a trope that's thrown in with everything else because it allows more boobies, but it can also add to a character. I'll admit I don't see this happen often, in fact, that was only example I can think of atm. Arousal's also a really easy way to please somebody so it doesn't take a lot of effort, but eroticism is still an art, and can add to the show while still feeling like it fits. I like fights better for the reasons you described as well as just having a personal preference of fights over cock teasing, but I don't agree that the ability to put fan service somewhere else makes it Unnecessarh or bad.merryfistmas said: I completely agree with this, I was comparing fights to sexual fan service though. There is an art to both. Although I guess it was inaccurate to say "I'm not immune to this" after giving examples of pandering and then giving an example of something that requires a level of skill. The difference between sexual fanservice and fight scenes is that sex-fanservice is rarely necessary, and can be done outside of it. A fight scene is often necessary to progress the story, even if just for the heroes to the move to the next stage. The fight can have psychological developments, or it can be a puzzle. It also needs movements and characters for it to be engrossing, so it needs a story around it. How does sex fanservice contribute to a story? How is showing the character in lingerie can advance the story? Also, it can easily be done in posters and artbooks instead of in the show. There's no difference between the posters for Freezing and the sexystuff in the anime. Now, I do think sexy characters are their own artform. I just find they work better as static art and don't like it when anime pauses to show me how sexy the character is. |
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