| Back in the 1980s in the West, places like Circle K, 7-Eleven, and truck stops often sold shit like risque pin-up posters and magazine calendars featuring popular models of the time, such as Samantha Fox, Heather Thomas, Heather Locklear, Kathy Ireland, etc... This type of fucking merch was intentionally provocative and often featured women posed in extremely graphic and explicit ways (no pun intended lol), wearing such tight, skimpy bathing suits that they were barely covered at all (Sometimes one could even clearly see an impression of their clit or nipples poking through their bathing suits). Often, the camera would be hyper-focused on their crotch, ass, breasts, or even all that shit at once. While these models were never nude in such merch, it still gave customers clear sexual eye-candy onto which they could project their fucking fantasies (no pun intended lol). Often very young teenage brats bought such merch as 'rub one out' material, because they weren't old enough to buy actual fucking porn. lol Beyond that, there were just general 'fan-crushes' on famous actors and actresses from TV shows to movies. For example, before I was even a teenage brat, I had a fan-crush on Annie aka Naomi Morinaga from "Space Sheriff Shaider", back when I was still living in Osaka.  Even in the 90s, it was pretty common for teenage brats stealing either their mother’s or even sister’s Victoria’s Secret mail catalog, just to use as a quick "rub one out" material, from time to time. I used to know a dude back in high school who had a literal stack of Victoria’s Secret catalogs about three feet tall, all addressed to his mother lol. But even back then, people knew who the models in those catalogs were, such as Stephanie Seymour, Tyra Banks, Daniela Pestova, Rebecca Romijn, etc... Going back before the Victoria’s Secret era, kids would just jerk it to a Sears Catalog too. That shit was thick as a telephone book, with over a third of the catalog dedicated to just trying to sell women’s panties, bras, and bridal lingerie. In Japan, the equivalent was the "Peach John" catalog, although that shit wasn’t from a typical department store. lol But more to the point, these "FAN-tacies" almost always involved real-life people. So where did the shift begin when fandom started projecting their love, affection, and sexual gratification on fictional characters that only exist as animated drawings? Where fast forward to today, even full grown ass adults that have entire shrines built completely around a bunch or Anime characters, from waifus to husbandos. And, sure even before all this, people would still jerk off to sexually graphic depictions of fictional drawing and shit, but typically not ritualizing the actual characters in the art work or actually grow an extreme amount of physical attachments to said fictional characters. Before it seemed to only act as their personalized 'smutt' (whether it be actually pornographic or not). So if this type of topic interest you, converse on and let everyone know your opinions on the matter. |
ColourWheelOct 19, 8:05 AM
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I'm only here to pay respect to the first three true sexy waifus, Cutie Honey Doronbo Donronjo, and Invader Lum.   |
ColourWheel said: So where did the shift begin when fandom started projecting their love, affection, and sexual gratification on fictional characters that only exist as animated drawings? I guess around 2006 when Haruhi appeared, and cheap internet and free anime became widely accessible. |
| The sexualization of the person has existed since the dawn of time, it was not born with magazines and it will not end with waifus. But waifus are not just a sexual projection, everyone has a quite unique definition of "waifu": for example for me a waifu is not the character I would like to have sex with, but a personality I could very well relate to in real life, obviously looks play an important role, especially when the goal is to sell/display merch. I don't like characters who are blatantly sexualized for no reason... |
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality"  |
problems arose when the women stopped being hot, look at hollywood now, all are ugly when back in the day I would get instant hard-on when winona ryder was on screen these 2 were my favs back in the day to the point I went to the seaside 300 kms from my town to see them in concert and I was like 14 |
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Reply to Zarutaku
ColourWheel said:
So where did the shift begin when fandom started projecting their love, affection, and sexual gratification on fictional characters that only exist as animated drawings?
So where did the shift begin when fandom started projecting their love, affection, and sexual gratification on fictional characters that only exist as animated drawings?
I guess around 2006 when Haruhi appeared, and cheap internet and free anime became widely accessible.
| @Zarutaku no the anime board i went to had a long time *claims list* and that existed before haruhi |
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Reply to Duado
The sexualization of the person has existed since the dawn of time, it was not born with magazines and it will not end with waifus.
But waifus are not just a sexual projection, everyone has a quite unique definition of "waifu":
for example for me a waifu is not the character I would like to have sex with, but a personality I could very well relate to in real life, obviously looks play an important role, especially when the goal is to sell/display merch.
I don't like characters who are blatantly sexualized for no reason...
But waifus are not just a sexual projection, everyone has a quite unique definition of "waifu":
for example for me a waifu is not the character I would like to have sex with, but a personality I could very well relate to in real life, obviously looks play an important role, especially when the goal is to sell/display merch.
I don't like characters who are blatantly sexualized for no reason...
| @Duado Yeah they find little stone idols of the female form with big tatas from 25,000 years ago, though scholars debate their purpose; religious, symbolic, or erotic. There was other erotic art way before photography was invented; woodblock prints, sketches, engravings, even hand illustrated books and poems meant to tittilate. Then printing presses made erotic books gain in popularity with the rise of mass bookmaking. OPs references to lingerie magazines and gas station knickknacks are just another artifact of time and place. Really, looking at it historically, before photography, fictional persons represented in erotic art existed for much longer than Victoria's Secret models were popular. |
| @Oiisu Oiisu said: Really, looking at it historically, before photography, fictional persons represented in erotic art existed for much longer than Victoria's Secret models were popular. That's what I mean, thank you. Anime is just another media where someone can jerk off and Studios know that... |
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality" |
Reply to ComeInReiAsuka
@Zarutaku no the anime board i went to had a long time *claims list* and that existed before haruhi
| @ComeInReiAsuka Then maybe around 2002 when Azumanga aired. |
Duado said: The sexualization of the person has existed since the dawn of time, it was not born with magazines and it will not end with waifus. Was never contesting this. Where I already touch on it here... ColourWheel said: And, sure even before all this, people would still jerk off to sexually graphic depictions of fictional drawing and shit, but typically not ritualizing the actual characters in the art work or actually grow an extreme amount of physical attachments to said fictional characters. Before it seemed to only act as their personalized 'smutt' (whether it be actually pornographic or not). The key difference between then and now is the ritualization and extreme physical attachment to fictional characters. Duado said: But waifus are not just a sexual projection, everyone has a quite unique definition of "waifu": for example for me a waifu is not the character I would like to have sex with, but a personality I could very well relate to in real life, obviously looks play an important role, especially when the goal is to sell/display merch. I thought I already touched on this with my "Annie" example with a "fan-crush". Obviously I wasn't "rubbing one out" over her when I was still between the age of 8 and 10 years old. lol |
ColourWheelOct 19, 5:51 AM
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ColourWheel said: The key difference between then and now is the ritualization and extreme physical attachment to fictional characters. Do you really think that things have changed now compared to before? Now with the advent of the internet, AI and artists of all kinds available at all times it has certainly become easier to romanticize a fictional character, but before it was no different, it was just more difficult and there wasn't merch for everything. I speak from my experience as an Italian, between the 60s and the early 2000s dozens of international and non-international stars were created, romanticized and elevated by boys and adults only because they were more sensual in theaters or on television. Women who made history because there were entire communities of fans waiting for an exposed thigh, with posters glued to the walls of their homes. Nowadays it's just easier and those with social problems lock themselves in a fantasy where a fictional character can say and do anything you want with just one click... Then you used your imagination, now Rule34 |
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality" |
Duado said: Do you really think that things have changed now compared to before? Now with the advent of the internet, AI and artists of all kinds available at all times it has certainly become easier to romanticize a fictional character, but before it was no different, it was just more difficult and there wasn't merch for everything. I speak from my experience as an Italian, between the 60s and the early 2000s dozens of international and non-international stars were created, romanticized and elevated by boys and adults only because they were more sensual in theaters or on television. Women who made history because there were entire communities of fans waiting for an exposed thigh, with posters glued to the walls of their homes. Nowadays it's just easier and those with social problems lock themselves in a fantasy where a fictional character can say and do anything you want with just one click... Then you used your imagination, now Rule34 Speaking from my experience there was a shit ton of merch back then, more than you would probably realize if you weren't paying attention to it. lol - Trading cards with models or pop stars. - Magazine centerfolds (Playboy, Penthouse, etc.). - Swimsuit posters and “glamour” shot compilations - Action figures of popular TV and movie stars - Dolls modeled after celebrities or pop stars - Playsets or miniature accessories themed around characters or franchises - Even Collectible figurines of erotic models But, I get what you’re saying that sexualizing attractive people isn’t fucking new, and there are plenty of historical examples of fans idolizing real-life actors and models. I was never contesting that shit. My point is about the nature of attachment to fictional characters today specifically Anime, which is a different phenomenon. Even before the internet, people might have jerked off to drawings or fantasized about fictional depictions, but they rarely ritualized those characters or formed extreme emotional and physical attachments. What we see now; waifu/husbando culture, shrines, obsessive collections, and deep emotional investment in characters who only exist as animated drawings... That shit is fundamentally different in structure and intensity. It’s not just sexualization; it’s a ritualized devotion that didn’t really exist with real-life idols or models. Historical fans might have admired a poster on their wall or had a “fan-crush”, but they weren’t building entire lifestyles around it. That’s the distinction I’m highlighting. The tools have made it easier, sure, but the depth and ritualization of attachment is the real fucking shift. |
ColourWheelOct 19, 6:13 AM
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Reply to ColourWheel
Duado said:
Do you really think that things have changed now compared to before?
Now with the advent of the internet, AI and artists of all kinds available at all times it has certainly become easier to romanticize a fictional character, but before it was no different, it was just more difficult and there wasn't merch for everything.
I speak from my experience as an Italian, between the 60s and the early 2000s dozens of international and non-international stars were created, romanticized and elevated by boys and adults only because they were more sensual in theaters or on television. Women who made history because there were entire communities of fans waiting for an exposed thigh, with posters glued to the walls of their homes.
Nowadays it's just easier and those with social problems lock themselves in a fantasy where a fictional character can say and do anything you want with just one click...
Then you used your imagination, now Rule34
Do you really think that things have changed now compared to before?
Now with the advent of the internet, AI and artists of all kinds available at all times it has certainly become easier to romanticize a fictional character, but before it was no different, it was just more difficult and there wasn't merch for everything.
I speak from my experience as an Italian, between the 60s and the early 2000s dozens of international and non-international stars were created, romanticized and elevated by boys and adults only because they were more sensual in theaters or on television. Women who made history because there were entire communities of fans waiting for an exposed thigh, with posters glued to the walls of their homes.
Nowadays it's just easier and those with social problems lock themselves in a fantasy where a fictional character can say and do anything you want with just one click...
Then you used your imagination, now Rule34
Speaking from my experience there was a shit ton of merch back then, more than you would probably realize if you weren't paying attention to it. lol
- Trading cards with models or pop stars.
- Magazine centerfolds (Playboy, Penthouse, etc.).
- Swimsuit posters and “glamour” shot compilations
- Action figures of popular TV and movie stars
- Dolls modeled after celebrities or pop stars
- Playsets or miniature accessories themed around characters or franchises
- Even Collectible figurines of erotic models
But, I get what you’re saying that sexualizing attractive people isn’t fucking new, and there are plenty of historical examples of fans idolizing real-life actors and models. I was never contesting that shit. My point is about the nature of attachment to fictional characters today specifically Anime, which is a different phenomenon.
Even before the internet, people might have jerked off to drawings or fantasized about fictional depictions, but they rarely ritualized those characters or formed extreme emotional and physical attachments. What we see now; waifu/husbando culture, shrines, obsessive collections, and deep emotional investment in characters who only exist as animated drawings... That shit is fundamentally different in structure and intensity. It’s not just sexualization; it’s a ritualized devotion that didn’t really exist with real-life idols or models.
Historical fans might have admired a poster on their wall or had a “fan-crush”, but they weren’t building entire lifestyles around it. That’s the distinction I’m highlighting. The tools have made it easier, sure, but the depth and ritualization of attachment is the real fucking shift.
| @ColourWheel I agree that some situations are out of control now, but it's not true that before there weren't people creating entire imaginary lives around characters/people. Especially with Idols. They were certainly less common and limited to certain countries and certain people. Maybe the use of fictional characters makes those people feel less guilty and more legitimized in imagining certain situations. But yes, I can agree that today fewers are only looking for the sexual part, but they go so far as to create entire lifestyles around a character. However, the problem is always the plague of social problems that is spreading like wildfire... Edit: I'm aware of the merch you're talking about, but I didn't take it into consideration since it has never touched Italy. |
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality" |
Reply to Catalano
problems arose when the women stopped being hot, look at hollywood now, all are ugly when back in the day I would get instant hard-on when winona ryder was on screen
these 2 were my favs back in the day to the point I went to the seaside 300 kms from my town to see them in concert and I was like 14
these 2 were my favs back in the day to the point I went to the seaside 300 kms from my town to see them in concert and I was like 14
Catalano said: problems arose when the women stopped being hot, look at hollywood now, all are ugly when back in the day I would get instant hard-on when winona ryder was on screen This is so true, I am so glad to see I'm not only one still smitten with the stars I grew up with like Charlize Theron, Uma Thurman, Penelope Cruz, Nicole Kidman, Michelle Pfeiffer .. Modern actress just look fake like Instagram filters. |
| the sexualization of women didn't start with modern media or golden age of Hollywood motion picture. it spans cultures, eras, and mediums. From fertility goddesses in Mesopotamia to erotic art and sculptures in ancient Greece and Rome, Renaissance paintings, Victorian novels, and early edo period ukiyo-e style Shunga pictures all contributed to shaping modern waifu. |
I love women ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ |
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Duado said: I agree that some situations are out of control now, but it's not true that before there weren't people creating entire imaginary lives around characters/people. Especially with Idols. That’s the key difference. Those were real fucking people. Even if someone was attached to a fictional character they portrayed, the attachment was usually directed at the actor or actress. For example, if someone fell in love with "Elvira", they often collected tons of other shit featuring Cassandra Peterson in different roles, showing their interest was more in the performer than the fictional character itself. Sure, there could be outliers like the ones you’re describing, but they would have been rare. I’m looking at this from a broader perspective of overall trends. That’s like saying there could be a lesbian squirrel out there somewhere in the world. lol |
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I Love Gentle-Natured, Girlishly-Sweet Women  |
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| I think fictional waifus have the advantage because they can be whatever you want them to be. You can hyper focus on really specific or niche kinks from clothing and accessories, to body and personality types. You can give them different color eyes. You can give them animal ears and a tail. Whatever you want. With a real pinup model it's all the same beach or lingerie photos. There's no fun, there's no crazy fetishes... it's boring. And if you try to dress them up as an elf, for example, it just looks fake. Ironically the fictional elf waifu looks more realistic than a real person dressed as one. The exception would be the cosplayers that can do some very realistic and convincing work, but that's a different beast compared to Victoria's Secret catalogs and calendar models. |
| Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
LostSpectre said: Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer. But I wasn’t asking why anime fans started existing. Despite any shit going on in the West, even in Japan there wasn’t really a ‘waifu’ culture in the 80s or 90s either. That whole idea of personal emotional attachment to animated fictional characters came much later. |
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| I love that u mentions the SEARS Catalog... I loved those when I was little, my grandmother had them at her house. I have one I bought at a thrift shop, it's Fall 1977 and does have some interesting fashion. My growing up and ideas about beauty formed a lot differently than current gen I think. I started drawing when I was little and then started drawing anime-inspired characters of my own about 25 years ago. But my first exposure to drawn characters I loved was NOT anime. The first that comes to mind was the illustrations in fantasy novels, and I had a workbook from Sunday School that was full of colorful cartoony style characters from Biblical stories- I was in love with that book. Since it was a 'young people's' book, most of the characters were depicted as either children or very young looking adults- sort of like anime. I saw my first anime (Sailor Moon) in 1995. It was a revelation because the character designs were deliberately sexy, with short skirts and boots and I was amazed by that. But I've been kind of ambivalent about waifu culture and favorite characters since I can draw my own, well enough to at least satisfy MYSELF.... so my favorite characters are all mine, and anime comes a distant 2nd. I don't have a problem with people being into anime girls or boys. It's a positive thing to like cute characters and enjoy them is much better than doing drugs or joining gangs or just being miserable and lonely at home while Ma and Pa work in the fields? At least people can get into things that are just fun entertainment as an outlet for all life's worries and bullshit. |
Reply to ColourWheel
LostSpectre said:
Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer.
Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer.
But I wasn’t asking why anime fans started existing.
Despite any shit going on in the West, even in Japan there wasn’t really a ‘waifu’ culture in the 80s or 90s either. That whole idea of personal emotional attachment to animated fictional characters came much later.
| @ColourWheel Your entire post was about the west, pretty much, but I digress. Yeah, I remember reading about the origins of that, and there were a lot of different factors, but it didn't really gain popularity until the late 90's. Of course, this still has more to do with how animanga and games changed than why we started looking this way at anime characters instead of real women (not that you can't do both). |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to ColourWheel
LostSpectre said:
Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer.
Barely anyone knew about anime in the 90's, so there's your answer.
But I wasn’t asking why anime fans started existing.
Despite any shit going on in the West, even in Japan there wasn’t really a ‘waifu’ culture in the 80s or 90s either. That whole idea of personal emotional attachment to animated fictional characters came much later.
| @ColourWheel No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s. The original Cutie Honey was a waifu. Fujiko Mine was a waifu. That Creamy Mamy character from the early 80s was a waifu and probably one of the first digital fan arts was made of her. It came TO THE WEST later, but only because the more sexy anime like NGE came later to the west. Also the internet, like usenet and telnet forums didn't get going until the 90s, when social media started and people could talk about them. Before that all you could do was send your fan art of Sailor Mercury scribbled on line paper during Earth Science class to Animerica Magazine and hope they published it in their letters section. (they didn't) |
SuperAdventure said: @ColourWheel No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s. The original Cutie Honey was a waifu. Fujiko Mine was a waifu. That Creamy Mamy character from the early 80s was a waifu and probably one of the first digital fan arts was made of her. It came TO THE WEST later, but only because the more sexy anime like NGE came later to the west. Also the internet, like usenet and telnet forums didn't get going until the 90s, when social media started and people could talk about them. Before that all you could do was send your fan art of Sailor Mercury scribbled on line paper during Earth Science class to Animerica Magazine and hope they published it in their letters section. (they didn't) That’s kind of like calling Marilyn Monroe a fucking “VTuber”. Sure, people adored Honey and Fujiko, posters on the wall, fan art, the works (even my father had all that shit in Osaka), But nobody was lighting shit like candles and celebrating their birthdays. The ritualized, personal side of “waifu culture” didn’t really take shape until at least the late-90s Moe boom (I’d even argue it didn’t fully solidify until after the turn of the century), when fandom turned inward instead of collective. lol Waifu culture is generally defined by ritualized, personal devotion, not mere admiration or fandom. Admiration ≠ waifu culture |
ColourWheelOct 19, 3:25 PM
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Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
@ColourWheel No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s. The original Cutie Honey was a waifu. Fujiko Mine was a waifu. That Creamy Mamy character from the early 80s was a waifu and probably one of the first digital fan arts was made of her. It came TO THE WEST later, but only because the more sexy anime like NGE came later to the west. Also the internet, like usenet and telnet forums didn't get going until the 90s, when social media started and people could talk about them. Before that all you could do was send your fan art of Sailor Mercury scribbled on line paper during Earth Science class to Animerica Magazine and hope they published it in their letters section. (they didn't)
@ColourWheel No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s. The original Cutie Honey was a waifu. Fujiko Mine was a waifu. That Creamy Mamy character from the early 80s was a waifu and probably one of the first digital fan arts was made of her. It came TO THE WEST later, but only because the more sexy anime like NGE came later to the west. Also the internet, like usenet and telnet forums didn't get going until the 90s, when social media started and people could talk about them. Before that all you could do was send your fan art of Sailor Mercury scribbled on line paper during Earth Science class to Animerica Magazine and hope they published it in their letters section. (they didn't)
That’s kind of like calling Marilyn Monroe a fucking “VTuber”. Sure, people adored Honey and Fujiko, posters on the wall, fan art, the works (even my father had all that shit in Osaka), But nobody was lighting shit like candles and celebrating their birthdays. The ritualized, personal side of “waifu culture” didn’t really take shape until at least the late-90s Moe boom (I’d even argue it didn’t fully solidify until after the turn of the century), when fandom turned inward instead of collective. lol
Waifu culture is generally defined by ritualized, personal devotion, not mere admiration or fandom.
Admiration ≠ waifu culture
| I wouldn't be so sure about that. You're making a lot of assumptions that people weren't otakus in the past. They existed. What you call waifu culture seems like it could be subjective what someone else considers it. Anime didn't get big in the west until the 90s, that was just because of how entertainment was heavily regulated back then and the language barrier made it difficult. The global economy of today didn't really exist yet. The world was much more divided up and national cultures were more isolated to domestic market. Lack of the internet meant it had to be discovered in Japan and brought over by some pioneering entertainment people who saw its potential. It's not fair to say just because it took a long time to spread around the world that people were somehow less into sexy females. |
SuperAdventure said: I wouldn't be so sure about that. You're making a lot of assumptions that people weren't otakus in the past. They existed. What you call waifu culture seems like it could be subjective what someone else considers it. Anime didn't get big in the west until the 90s, that was just because of how entertainment was heavily regulated back then and the language barrier made it difficult. The global economy of today didn't really exist yet. The world was much more divided up and national cultures were more isolated to domestic market. Lack of the internet meant it had to be discovered in Japan and brought over by some pioneering entertainment people who saw its potential. It's not fair to say just because it took a long time to spread around the world that people were somehow less into sexy females. Just to clarify, my original premise wasn’t about otaku culture or whether people liked sexy characters back in the 70s/80s. That’s a completely different conversation. I’m talking about waifu culture specifically: the ritualized, personal devotion to fictional characters… shrines, lifestyle integration, deep emotional attachments, even people getting fucking married to basically a drawing. lol Admiring Cutie Honey or Fujiko Mine as an otaku? Sure, that existed. Fuck, my father collected that shit too in the late 70s early 80s back living in Osaka. But lighting candles for them and building your life around them? That didn’t. That’s the distinction I’m making, and it’s why the late-90s Moe boom, or even some time later after the turn of the century, is likely the real starting point for what most people today recognize as waifu culture. |
ColourWheelOct 19, 4:36 PM
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| Aw man, I truly miss the '90s, I had no clue how F great those times were and that they were fleeting just like sand that escapes your hand. You can't compare those times with these times. Yes, we had awesome lingerie catalogues, yes we had Playboy, yes we had playing cards of Pamela Andersson, yes we had posters of beautiful women revealing nipples & cameltoe, yes young F1 pitgirls were the norm, yes beautiful 'saleswomen' at carconventions were normal, yes romantic movies dared showing glimps of sex where you could see some naked sideboobies or if you were lucky full nudity for 0.8 seconds, yes Lara Crofts boobs were 3D pointy triangles and young boys loved it, yes all adds had beautiful unknown people, yes all TV shows had ex-misses working everywhere presenting shows, news & gameshows. Truly great times, especially knowing that not so long ago (from the perspective of living in the '90s) censorship was prominently present everywhere (at least in Western Europe) & was finally eradicated (only to come back now, stronger as ever, woohoow digital ID... /sarcasm). But I'll tell you what we didn't had in those great times of the '90s, a vast and endless supply of free porn on the internet. Overtime this little fact truly changed everything. Before the smartphones, people had to have a PC at home to get on the internet, often this device was shared among the entire family. Internet was cool and truly free back then. Sadly once the smartphones were released & the normies among normies had access to the internet 24/7 en mass. The entire dynamic shifted slowly but surely from good to bad & from bad to worse. The initial death of persuing consensus among those first internauts, ushered in a new era where every individual had the capability to freely enter a subtle mental prison shared by like minded individuals AKA bubbles. Some of these groups flourished and truly made the internet an even better place then it already was, other groups were strangely dead set on the destruction of everything enjoyable in life by nagging endlessly & criticize everything. These nagging groups with time only grew bigger and fiercer. Eventually the naggers won on way to many fronts in quick succession, because most people, the non-naggers, were tolerant and silent for way to many years. They foolishly and genuinely believed the naggers will never achieve something tangeable, because 'everything will stay like it always was'. The initial minority in real life became the mayority on the internet, the main drive of changing society, bending it to their will. No more F1 young women escorting the pilots on the tarmac with sun blocking parasols. No more 'saleswomen' at carconventions. No more ex misses working at TV shows of different levels. No more adds with unknown beautiful people, now it had to be celebrities. No more 3D triangle boobies. We actually made great improvements on the games market, BUT as you can clearly see, for the last decade Western game developers are under heavy fire where they need to comply a certain list of criteria, like for example the uglification of women in games, in order to get finances. ... Now what does this history rant has to do with the initial question? Simple, men are logical and simple creatures. Deny them everything they previously had & they will still succeed to goon succesfully. You can ban and censor literally everything, but with simply cutting the tip of their finger, they can still draw boobs on the wall with their own blood & nothing nor nobody can ever stop them. Remember the calculator trick 59009? Somewhere among these massive societal changes in a relative short span of time, anime rose like a blooming flower and provided a safe haven for many men. Before anime grew big in the West, the West already had cartoons. Betty Boop, ring a bell? She among many others opened a new gateway to goon back in the day when we still had the greatness of the '90s. So anime didn't introduced anything or changed the market that was already established, albeit in a far smaller form compared to the current scope. Anime was just the perfect fertilizer to strengthen that market, because many men knew this was a safe haven & wrongly thought it would always be a safe haven just for them, the outcasts of society. You would be ostracized for being an otaku, you were a nerd, a loser, if you watched anime. So why would anyone bother you and try to change the anime landscape? Otakus sadly also had to learn the hard way that the normies (hold your tits, I didn't say tourists) would infiltrate their little safe haven uninvited and obviously demand change. Insisting on a conformity to a certain ideology that is only losing traction right now, in 2025. Old movies and series that are digitized and re-released have suffered under the banner of modern censorship driven by an unrealistic ideology. The same thing happened in anime already. Sites are being hunted down, Visa & Mastercard payments are being blocked. If anything these extreme otakus that have shrines and figurines and all that, are simply winners. Unless a certain type of future censorship police invaded their homes to confiscate everything, they will always be able to enjoy that what they most love in life. TLDR I dunno man. |
| Kingdom Come Deliverance II GOTY 2025 Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 is another worthy GOTY contender I tip my fedora to Sandfall Interactive, excellent debut gentlemen! If digital buying isn't owning, then piracy isn't stealing My curiosity is an act of love for truth I do love the truth, I love it so much that I don't want to lie. Lying is tiring & in the end, the only thing that stands the test of time is truth, lies decompose over time. |
| Ah yes, the thread I was looking for. Retro men of culture! 😁 |
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Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. You're making a lot of assumptions that people weren't otakus in the past. They existed.
What you call waifu culture seems like it could be subjective what someone else considers it. Anime didn't get big in the west until the 90s, that was just because of how entertainment was heavily regulated back then and the language barrier made it difficult. The global economy of today didn't really exist yet. The world was much more divided up and national cultures were more isolated to domestic market. Lack of the internet meant it had to be discovered in Japan and brought over by some pioneering entertainment people who saw its potential. It's not fair to say just because it took a long time to spread around the world that people were somehow less into sexy females.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. You're making a lot of assumptions that people weren't otakus in the past. They existed.
What you call waifu culture seems like it could be subjective what someone else considers it. Anime didn't get big in the west until the 90s, that was just because of how entertainment was heavily regulated back then and the language barrier made it difficult. The global economy of today didn't really exist yet. The world was much more divided up and national cultures were more isolated to domestic market. Lack of the internet meant it had to be discovered in Japan and brought over by some pioneering entertainment people who saw its potential. It's not fair to say just because it took a long time to spread around the world that people were somehow less into sexy females.
Just to clarify, my original premise wasn’t about otaku culture or whether people liked sexy characters back in the 70s/80s. That’s a completely different conversation. I’m talking about waifu culture specifically: the ritualized, personal devotion to fictional characters… shrines, lifestyle integration, deep emotional attachments, even people getting fucking married to basically a drawing. lol
Admiring Cutie Honey or Fujiko Mine as an otaku? Sure, that existed. Fuck, my father collected that shit too in the late 70s early 80s back living in Osaka. But lighting candles for them and building your life around them? That didn’t. That’s the distinction I’m making, and it’s why the late-90s Moe boom, or even some time later after the turn of the century, is likely the real starting point for what most people today recognize as waifu culture.
| @ColourWheel Yes I am talking about the same thing, and am saying that I'm not so sure it didn't exist. Also, if you're using the decade of the 90s to say something started- that's still a 35 Year time span. That's longer than a generation, so it's hard to say something that old- is new or sudden. It's quite possible people were lighting candles for Cutie Honey in 1973. But there was no internet, and no social media, no Youtube or any such way for sharing of odd hobbies. EVERYTHING had to pass through an editor to find its way to a newspaper article or into a magazine. A lot of the stuff you're saying is the worst- is just Play Acting. Like, someone would light candles and hold a ritual birthday for an anime character JUST TO GET REACTIONS since Reaction-Plz has become the latest trend of online attention-seekers. I'm not convinced a lot of the people doing that are sincere. Including the ones who have paid for marriages. It's all part of the act- it will get them views and likes on their posts and videos. If the web had existed as it does today in 1973- I 100% guarantee it would have existed. But it's not correct to state it factually did not- just because we couldn't see it |
SuperAdventure said: @ColourWheel Yes I am talking about the same thing, and am saying that I'm not so sure it didn't exist. Also, if you're using the decade of the 90s to say something started- that's still a 35 Year time span. That's longer than a generation, so it's hard to say something that old- is new or sudden. It's quite possible people were lighting candles for Cutie Honey in 1973. But there was no internet, and no social media, no Youtube or any such way for sharing of odd hobbies. EVERYTHING had to pass through an editor to find its way to a newspaper article or into a magazine. A lot of the stuff you're saying is the worst- is just Play Acting. Like, someone would light candles and hold a ritual birthday for an anime character JUST TO GET REACTIONS since Reaction-Plz has become the latest trend of online attention-seekers. I'm not convinced a lot of the people doing that are sincere. Including the ones who have paid for marriages. It's all part of the act- it will get them views and likes on their posts and videos. If the web had existed as it does today in 1973- I 100% guarantee it would have existed. But it's not correct to state it factually did not- just because we couldn't see it @SuperAdventure Sure, I’ll give you that... it’s totally possible someone was lighting shit like candles for Cutie Honey in 1973, just like it’s possible someone out there was worshipping a rock that looked like fucking Elvis. But isolated quirks don’t make a cultural movement. The difference is broad visibility, scale, and intent. Which is something you pointed out, the lack of shit like the internet. lol Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and say, sure, this shit could date back to the 70s, just because the internet didn’t exist, there should still be massive amounts of well-documented historical traces of it... people taking photos, writing about it, some shit... if this was really happen before the internet era and extremely common. lol Once the late-90s Moe era hit and the internet gave people a shared shrine to project their obsessions onto, that’s when it likely became a true thing. Before that, it was just individual weirdness (like my example that there could be a lesbian squirrel somewhere in the world); after that, it became collective ritual. There’s a line between “guy with a poster” and “guy holding a birthday ceremony for a JPG.” Even if you think this shit is mostly performative, one only needs to look no further than checking out random Users’ profiles... it’s clearly not, when some are going to the extreme of celebrating their waifu’s birthday, holding actual wedding ceremonies with a printed body pillow, posting regular anniversary updates, or writing diary entries addressed to a fictional character. That’s not performance... That fucking even looks like genuine emotional integration. You can’t “fake” consistency that deep unless you’re running a decade-long bit, and at that point, congratulations... you’ve basically married the bit anyway. lol if this shit truly happened dating back to the 70s, someone out there on Mal or even somewhere on the internet should be publicly celebrating their 40th marriage anniversary with their 2D Waifu (which I’ve never once seen), even if one would call it just performative. lol |
ColourWheelOct 20, 11:24 AM
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| Supposedly people were making lockets with the MC from Magical Princess Minky Momo in the early 80s |
Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
@ColourWheel Yes I am talking about the same thing, and am saying that I'm not so sure it didn't exist. Also, if you're using the decade of the 90s to say something started- that's still a 35 Year time span. That's longer than a generation, so it's hard to say something that old- is new or sudden.
It's quite possible people were lighting candles for Cutie Honey in 1973. But there was no internet, and no social media, no Youtube or any such way for sharing of odd hobbies. EVERYTHING had to pass through an editor to find its way to a newspaper article or into a magazine.
A lot of the stuff you're saying is the worst- is just Play Acting. Like, someone would light candles and hold a ritual birthday for an anime character JUST TO GET REACTIONS since Reaction-Plz has become the latest trend of online attention-seekers. I'm not convinced a lot of the people doing that are sincere. Including the ones who have paid for marriages. It's all part of the act- it will get them views and likes on their posts and videos.
If the web had existed as it does today in 1973- I 100% guarantee it would have existed. But it's not correct to state it factually did not- just because we couldn't see it
@ColourWheel Yes I am talking about the same thing, and am saying that I'm not so sure it didn't exist. Also, if you're using the decade of the 90s to say something started- that's still a 35 Year time span. That's longer than a generation, so it's hard to say something that old- is new or sudden.
It's quite possible people were lighting candles for Cutie Honey in 1973. But there was no internet, and no social media, no Youtube or any such way for sharing of odd hobbies. EVERYTHING had to pass through an editor to find its way to a newspaper article or into a magazine.
A lot of the stuff you're saying is the worst- is just Play Acting. Like, someone would light candles and hold a ritual birthday for an anime character JUST TO GET REACTIONS since Reaction-Plz has become the latest trend of online attention-seekers. I'm not convinced a lot of the people doing that are sincere. Including the ones who have paid for marriages. It's all part of the act- it will get them views and likes on their posts and videos.
If the web had existed as it does today in 1973- I 100% guarantee it would have existed. But it's not correct to state it factually did not- just because we couldn't see it
@SuperAdventure
Sure, I’ll give you that... it’s totally possible someone was lighting shit like candles for Cutie Honey in 1973, just like it’s possible someone out there was worshipping a rock that looked like fucking Elvis. But isolated quirks don’t make a cultural movement. The difference is broad visibility, scale, and intent. Which is something you pointed out, the lack of shit like the internet. lol
Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and say, sure, this shit could date back to the 70s, just because the internet didn’t exist, there should still be massive amounts of well-documented historical traces of it... people taking photos, writing about it, some shit... if this was really happen before the internet era and extremely common. lol
Once the late-90s Moe era hit and the internet gave people a shared shrine to project their obsessions onto, that’s when it likely became a true thing. Before that, it was just individual weirdness (like my example that there could be a lesbian squirrel somewhere in the world); after that, it became collective ritual. There’s a line between “guy with a poster” and “guy holding a birthday ceremony for a JPG.”
Even if you think this shit is mostly performative, one only needs to look no further than checking out random Users’ profiles... it’s clearly not, when some are going to the extreme of celebrating their waifu’s birthday, holding actual wedding ceremonies with a printed body pillow, posting regular anniversary updates, or writing diary entries addressed to a fictional character. That’s not performance... That fucking even looks like genuine emotional integration. You can’t “fake” consistency that deep unless you’re running a decade-long bit, and at that point, congratulations... you’ve basically married the bit anyway. lol
if this shit truly happened dating back to the 70s, someone out there on Mal or even somewhere on the internet should be publicly celebrating their 40th marriage anniversary with their 2D Waifu (which I’ve never once seen), even if one would call it just performative. lol
| @ColourWheel This is too many words for me to keep up with. I don't think erotic obsessions are new at all, you seem to think they are new and I'm saying no way. People are basically the same as we've always been. I read about laws they passed during the Middle Ages on public indecency because too many people were wearing short clothing that showed their genitals... in the Middle fucking Ages. They've found X-rated graffiti in Roman baths. More recent things like the Oscar Wilde affair had public reactions that were incredibly similar to how people respond to it today. The only difference between today and then was technological advancement, first the printing press, then the camera, then the film strip, then radio, television, internet. But underneath the modern clothing we're all exactly the same as our ancient predecessors. I wouldn't be surprised if someone dug up an ancient lewd anime waifu in the Roman forum. |
SuperAdventure said: @ColourWheel This is too many words for me to keep up with. I don't think erotic obsessions are new at all, you seem to think they are new and I'm saying no way. People are basically the same as we've always been. I read about laws they passed during the Middle Ages on public indecency because too many people were wearing short clothing that showed their genitals... in the Middle fucking Ages. They've found X-rated graffiti in Roman baths. More recent things like the Oscar Wilde affair had public reactions that were incredibly similar to how people respond to it today. The only difference between today and then was technological advancement, first the printing press, then the camera, then the film strip, then radio, television, internet. But underneath the modern clothing we're all exactly the same as our ancient predecessors. I wouldn't be surprised if someone dug up an ancient lewd anime waifu in the Roman forum. @SuperAdventure Sure, humans have always been horny, I get that. It's literally how I started the entire premise for this conversation in post #1. Roman baths, lewd graffiti, Oscar Wilde… fine, fine. But none of that included people lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies, marrying a printed body pillow, or writing diary entries to a fictional character for decades. That’s the difference. You can admire, lust after, or scandalize over a real person all you want... that’s fucking been happening for millennia. What’s new isn’t desire, it’s ritualized emotional devotion to fictional characters, made visible and sharable by thing such as the internet. Everything else is just history, memes, and a very horny imagination. lol |
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Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
@ColourWheel This is too many words for me to keep up with. I don't think erotic obsessions are new at all, you seem to think they are new and I'm saying no way. People are basically the same as we've always been. I read about laws they passed during the Middle Ages on public indecency because too many people were wearing short clothing that showed their genitals... in the Middle fucking Ages. They've found X-rated graffiti in Roman baths.
More recent things like the Oscar Wilde affair had public reactions that were incredibly similar to how people respond to it today. The only difference between today and then was technological advancement, first the printing press, then the camera, then the film strip, then radio, television, internet. But underneath the modern clothing we're all exactly the same as our ancient predecessors. I wouldn't be surprised if someone dug up an ancient lewd anime waifu in the Roman forum.
@ColourWheel This is too many words for me to keep up with. I don't think erotic obsessions are new at all, you seem to think they are new and I'm saying no way. People are basically the same as we've always been. I read about laws they passed during the Middle Ages on public indecency because too many people were wearing short clothing that showed their genitals... in the Middle fucking Ages. They've found X-rated graffiti in Roman baths.
More recent things like the Oscar Wilde affair had public reactions that were incredibly similar to how people respond to it today. The only difference between today and then was technological advancement, first the printing press, then the camera, then the film strip, then radio, television, internet. But underneath the modern clothing we're all exactly the same as our ancient predecessors. I wouldn't be surprised if someone dug up an ancient lewd anime waifu in the Roman forum.
@SuperAdventure
Sure, humans have always been horny, I get that. It's literally how I started the entire premise for this conversation in post #1.
Roman baths, lewd graffiti, Oscar Wilde… fine, fine. But none of that included people lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies, marrying a printed body pillow, or writing diary entries to a fictional character for decades. That’s the difference.
You can admire, lust after, or scandalize over a real person all you want... that’s fucking been happening for millennia. What’s new isn’t desire, it’s ritualized emotional devotion to fictional characters, made visible and sharable by thing such as the internet. Everything else is just history, memes, and a very horny imagination. lol
| @ColourWheel But how do you know people didn't lust after fictional people... isn't that what fantasizing basically is? You keep specifying lighting candles as some kind of turning point in the decline of humanity. They may well have married stuffed dolls, or collected them. I don't think printed body pillows existed because there was no printing, but wouldn't be surprised if some medieval equivalent did exist. People didn't suddenly go overboard 30 years ago with erotica. It's ancient we've been doing it forever. If you went back in time and brought a box full of anime figures to the year 800 and showed Charlemagne, he'd surely condemn them as lewd and products of the devil, and after all his servants left the hall would ask you to leave a couple behind. Everyone in town would surely marvel at them and you'd be a very successful anime figure merchant, guaranteed. And after taking their waifus home, I imagine some of the townspeople would light candles for them since Lord knows they had a lot of candles back then. |
SuperAdventureOct 20, 3:58 PM
SuperAdventure said: @ColourWheel But how do you know people didn't lust after fictional people... isn't that what fantasizing basically is? You keep specifying lighting candles as some kind of turning point in the decline of humanity. They may well have married stuffed dolls, or collected them. I don't think printed body pillows existed because there was no printing, but wouldn't be surprised if some medieval equivalent did exist. People didn't suddenly go overboard 30 years ago with erotica. It's ancient we've been doing it forever. If you went back in time and brought a box full of anime figures to the year 800 and showed Charlemagne, he'd surely condemn them as lewd and products of the devil, and after all his servants left the hall would ask you to leave a couple behind. Everyone in town would surely marvel at them and you'd be a very successful anime figure merchant, guaranteed. And after taking their waifus home, I imagine some of the townspeople would light candles for them since Lord knows they had a lot of candles back then. If you’ve been paying any attention to the thread… I literally already touched on that shit. Fantasizing about fictional people or sexualized imagery isn’t new, like I covered that in my 1st post. Even projecting desire onto art too. I started the thread adding it in the premise. I was never arguing that lusting after fictional or idealized figures began recently, so not sure where you got that idea. lol I’m talking about a cultural and behavioral shift... when private fantasy evolved into a ritualized, lifestyle-defining devotion people openly identify with. The key word here is culture, not fucking individual desire. lol Lighting candles and holding “marriages” are symbolic examples of that socialization... where fantasy turned into a shared identity through community reinforcement. The premise was always about when that timeless horniness turned into a subculture with its own rituals, norms, and emotional investment, specifically around Anime. It’s more anthropology of a cultural movement, not a “National Geographic: Humans Be Thirsty Edition.” lol |
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Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
@ColourWheel But how do you know people didn't lust after fictional people... isn't that what fantasizing basically is? You keep specifying lighting candles as some kind of turning point in the decline of humanity. They may well have married stuffed dolls, or collected them. I don't think printed body pillows existed because there was no printing, but wouldn't be surprised if some medieval equivalent did exist. People didn't suddenly go overboard 30 years ago with erotica. It's ancient we've been doing it forever.
If you went back in time and brought a box full of anime figures to the year 800 and showed Charlemagne, he'd surely condemn them as lewd and products of the devil, and after all his servants left the hall would ask you to leave a couple behind. Everyone in town would surely marvel at them and you'd be a very successful anime figure merchant, guaranteed. And after taking their waifus home, I imagine some of the townspeople would light candles for them since Lord knows they had a lot of candles back then.
@ColourWheel But how do you know people didn't lust after fictional people... isn't that what fantasizing basically is? You keep specifying lighting candles as some kind of turning point in the decline of humanity. They may well have married stuffed dolls, or collected them. I don't think printed body pillows existed because there was no printing, but wouldn't be surprised if some medieval equivalent did exist. People didn't suddenly go overboard 30 years ago with erotica. It's ancient we've been doing it forever.
If you went back in time and brought a box full of anime figures to the year 800 and showed Charlemagne, he'd surely condemn them as lewd and products of the devil, and after all his servants left the hall would ask you to leave a couple behind. Everyone in town would surely marvel at them and you'd be a very successful anime figure merchant, guaranteed. And after taking their waifus home, I imagine some of the townspeople would light candles for them since Lord knows they had a lot of candles back then.
If you’ve been paying any attention to the thread… I literally already touched on that shit. Fantasizing about fictional people or sexualized imagery isn’t new, like I covered that in my 1st post. Even projecting desire onto art too. I started the thread adding it in the premise. I was never arguing that lusting after fictional or idealized figures began recently, so not sure where you got that idea. lol
I’m talking about a cultural and behavioral shift... when private fantasy evolved into a ritualized, lifestyle-defining devotion people openly identify with. The key word here is culture, not fucking individual desire. lol
Lighting candles and holding “marriages” are symbolic examples of that socialization... where fantasy turned into a shared identity through community reinforcement.
The premise was always about when that timeless horniness turned into a subculture with its own rituals, norms, and emotional investment, specifically around Anime. It’s more anthropology of a cultural movement, not a “National Geographic: Humans Be Thirsty Edition.” lol
| @ColourWheel I feel like you don't proofread your own replies: here is what you wrote in the previous reply, ColourWheel said: lewd graffiti, Oscar Wilde… fine, fine. But none of that included people lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies, marrying a printed body pillow, or writing diary entries to a fictional character for decades. That’s the difference. So... you said lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies etc was the difference^ I then responded in the way above, but now you're implying you didn't say that. ...This is why I hate arguments on the internet because it gets to a point where this happens. Repetition, word-twisting, denying this means that or that means this etc, followed by claims the original post wasn't understood properly.... C'mon man. BS. You know I understood it and my reply made sense. I don't have anything else to say that would be new- and I don't care to rearrange words. If I can understand you, you should be able to understand me. I would refer to my respond of 5 hours ago (followed by the one 1 hr ago) because I hate repeating myself. |
SuperAdventure said: So... you said lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies etc was the difference^ I then responded in the way above, but now you're implying you didn't say that. ...This is why I hate arguments on the internet because it gets to a point where this happens. Repetition, word-twisting, denying this means that or that means this etc, followed by claims the original post wasn't understood properly.... C'mon man. BS. You know I understood it and my reply made sense. I don't have anything else to say that would be new- and I don't care to rearrange words. If I can understand you, you should be able to understand me. I would refer to my respond of 5 hours ago (followed by the one 1 hr ago) because I hate repeating myself. Then why even bother… if you understood everything from the beginning, you shouldn’t be making such a stink about it in the first place. lol Also your missing the bigger picture that this is focused around Anime... where the last few posts, you were going back in history to almost prehistoric ages. lol SuperAdventure said: No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s. The entire time you’ve been trying to shift the conversation beyond the premise. I actually engaged just to humor your take, but it’s a bit absurd to claim "waifu culture" started in the 1970s. Come on… claiming waifu culture started in the 1970s is a stretch so big it needs its own zip code. The word "waifu" didn’t even exist back then. Engaging with this is like arguing that smartphones existed in the 70s because pocket calculators did. lol A culture without a name isn't a culture at all. |
ColourWheelOct 20, 5:38 PM
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Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
So... you said lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies etc was the difference^
I then responded in the way above, but now you're implying you didn't say that.
...This is why I hate arguments on the internet because it gets to a point where this happens. Repetition, word-twisting, denying this means that
or that means this etc, followed by claims the original post wasn't understood properly.... C'mon man. BS. You know I understood it and my reply made sense. I don't have anything else to say that would be new- and I don't care to rearrange words. If I can understand you, you should be able to understand me. I would refer to my respond of 5 hours ago (followed by the one 1 hr ago) because I hate repeating myself.
So... you said lighting candles, holding birthday ceremonies etc was the difference^
I then responded in the way above, but now you're implying you didn't say that.
...This is why I hate arguments on the internet because it gets to a point where this happens. Repetition, word-twisting, denying this means that
or that means this etc, followed by claims the original post wasn't understood properly.... C'mon man. BS. You know I understood it and my reply made sense. I don't have anything else to say that would be new- and I don't care to rearrange words. If I can understand you, you should be able to understand me. I would refer to my respond of 5 hours ago (followed by the one 1 hr ago) because I hate repeating myself.
Then why even bother… if you understood everything from the beginning, you shouldn’t be making such a stink about it in the first place. lol
Also your missing the bigger picture that this is focused around Anime... where the last few posts, you were going back in history to almost prehistoric ages. lol
SuperAdventure said:
No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s.
No way did waifu culture start "much later" than the 90s. It started way earlier... probably in the 1970s.
The entire time you’ve been trying to shift the conversation beyond the premise. I actually engaged just to humor your take, but it’s a bit absurd to claim "waifu culture" started in the 1970s.
Come on… claiming waifu culture started in the 1970s is a stretch so big it needs its own zip code. The word "waifu" didn’t even exist back then. Engaging with this is like arguing that smartphones existed in the 70s because pocket calculators did. lol
A culture without a name isn't a culture at all.
| @ColourWheel I don't really understand the point you're trying to make now... the word "waifu" is just a bad Japanese pronunciation of the western term. That scene from Nichijou or whatever made it a meme but that doesn't mean there was not a culture for waifus before the meme. I have already said this many times, and think it started in the 1970s. The only reason I mentioned history was because of your claim that suddenly everything changed recently and no, disagree, people have been horny and into weird hobbies since ancient times. There are enough hints in things going on back then, and some of the art, which suggests this was so. I gave a lot of examples even of more recent anime from the 1970s and 80s but you've dismissed that... apparently I changed the subject (no, but I am not going to repeat myself 20 different ways) |
SuperAdventure said: @ColourWheel I don't really understand the point you're trying to make now... the word "waifu" is just a bad Japanese pronunciation of the western term. That scene from Nichijou or whatever made it a meme but that doesn't mean there was not a culture for waifus before the meme. I have already said this many times, and think it started in the 1970s. The only reason I mentioned history was because of your claim that suddenly everything changed recently and no, disagree, people have been horny and into weird hobbies since ancient times. There are enough hints in things going on back then, and some of the art, which suggests this was so. I gave a lot of examples even of more recent anime from the 1970s and 80s but you've dismissed that... apparently I changed the subject (no, but I am not going to repeat myself 20 different ways) Here’s how I look at this so take it for what it’s worth... The original premise I started from was a sociocultural observation, so let me rephrase this as a simple question: "When did fandom shift from admiring real people (models, idols, celebrities) to ritualized, emotionally devoted attachment to fictional anime characters (waifus/husbandos)?" I’ve repeated the distinctions endlessly: - Not talking about lust, fantasy, or sexual attraction that shit has always existed. - Talking about the ritualization and lifestyle integration of devotion to fictional characters (shrines, birthdays, “marriages,”) all that shit. - I even went out of my way to frame it as a cultural phenomenon, an identifiable movement made possible by shared experience, and one that couldn’t have existed before the Moe boom (late 1990s onward). I’ve tried to be consistent, anthropological, and well-defined. so here’s how I see your position: - You keep collapsing the cultural/ritual argument into a biological/psychological one... saying stuff like “People have always been horny… people always fetishized things… erotic obsessions aren’t new… there was lewd art in ancient Rome… etc...” So your position basically boils down to: - Horny people have always existed, therefore “waifu-like” attachment isn’t new. - The word waifu is recent, but the behavior is ancient. - Therefore, there’s no “shift.” I see it as a category error... confusing individual desire with structured cultural behavior (a sociological construct). Where the breakdown happens: - You’ve been misreading my examples, (things like lighting candles, holding ceremonies, marrying body pillows) as the definition of the phenomenon, instead of illustrative symptoms of it. So when I said, “That’s the difference... people didn’t used to do things like hold birthday ceremonies or marriages to fictional characters”, You took that shit literally. Like I was saying the candles themselves are the entire point. Then you accuse me of contradicting myself because you think I “denied” saying that’s the difference. But I didn’t. lol I clarified that those things are symbolic indicators of a larger ritualized emotional devotion, which is the actual point. So, from where I stand, you’ve been attacking a strawman version of this conversation, focusing on candles instead of culture. You’re conflating a psychological universal with a modern cultural phenomenon, ignoring the temporal specificity of when waifu culture became socially visible and self-defined, and misrepresenting my examples as pedantic instead of symbolic. I’ve never argued that desire or fetishism is new. I’ve argued that the communalization and ritualization of affection toward 2D characters is new and that is objectively supportable. Historically 1st noticed, the first visible use of “waifu” emerged with Azumanga Daioh (2002) and I’ve been into anime since the late 80s. If this phenomenon existed earlier, it would’ve shown up somewhere, even on the early internet of the late 90s, but that shit didn’t. The Moe boom (late 90s–2000s) made emotional attachment a normalized fan identity. I never claimed an exact date, only acknowledged another user’s point that suggested as much. Prior decades had character admiration, sure... but not self-identified, ritualized waifu devotion. That’s cultural evolution, not the invention of lust. lol Fast-forward to fucking now... You’re spinning your wheels... repeating “humans have always been horny” without engaging with the actual premise. You’ve even said, “I don’t really understand the point you’re making now… I’m not going to repeat myself 20 different ways.” That’s not reasoned debate... that’s just fucking frustration. Meanwhile, I’ve stayed consistent, defined the scope clearly, and used analogies like, “smartphones vs. pocket calculators” and “a guy with a poster vs. a guy holding a birthday ceremony for a JPG”... All this shit to highlight the categorical difference you keep ignoring. So now, if you keep repeating broad claims about human sexuality, you’re no longer engaging in good faith with the conversation. |
ColourWheelOct 21, 1:00 PM
|
Reply to ColourWheel
SuperAdventure said:
@ColourWheel I don't really understand the point you're trying to make now... the word "waifu" is just a bad Japanese pronunciation of the western term. That scene from Nichijou or whatever made it a meme but that doesn't mean there was not a culture for waifus before the meme. I have already said this many times, and think it started in the 1970s. The only reason I mentioned history was because of your claim that suddenly everything changed recently and no, disagree, people have been horny and into weird hobbies since ancient times. There are enough hints in things going on back then, and some of the art, which suggests this was so. I gave a lot of examples even of more recent anime from the 1970s and 80s but you've dismissed that... apparently I changed the subject (no, but I am not going to repeat myself 20 different ways)
@ColourWheel I don't really understand the point you're trying to make now... the word "waifu" is just a bad Japanese pronunciation of the western term. That scene from Nichijou or whatever made it a meme but that doesn't mean there was not a culture for waifus before the meme. I have already said this many times, and think it started in the 1970s. The only reason I mentioned history was because of your claim that suddenly everything changed recently and no, disagree, people have been horny and into weird hobbies since ancient times. There are enough hints in things going on back then, and some of the art, which suggests this was so. I gave a lot of examples even of more recent anime from the 1970s and 80s but you've dismissed that... apparently I changed the subject (no, but I am not going to repeat myself 20 different ways)
Here’s how I look at this so take it for what it’s worth...
The original premise I started from was a sociocultural observation, so let me rephrase this as a simple question:
"When did fandom shift from admiring real people (models, idols, celebrities) to ritualized, emotionally devoted attachment to fictional anime characters (waifus/husbandos)?"
I’ve repeated the distinctions endlessly:
- Not talking about lust, fantasy, or sexual attraction that shit has always existed.
- Talking about the ritualization and lifestyle integration of devotion to fictional characters (shrines, birthdays, “marriages,”) all that shit.
- I even went out of my way to frame it as a cultural phenomenon, an identifiable movement made possible by shared experience, and one that couldn’t have existed before the Moe boom (late 1990s onward).
I’ve tried to be consistent, anthropological, and well-defined.
so here’s how I see your position:
- You keep collapsing the cultural/ritual argument into a biological/psychological one... saying stuff like “People have always been horny… people always fetishized things… erotic obsessions aren’t new… there was lewd art in ancient Rome… etc...”
So your position basically boils down to:
- Horny people have always existed, therefore “waifu-like” attachment isn’t new.
- The word waifu is recent, but the behavior is ancient.
- Therefore, there’s no “shift.”
I see it as a category error... confusing individual desire with structured cultural behavior (a sociological construct).
Where the breakdown happens:
- You’ve been misreading my examples, (things like lighting candles, holding ceremonies, marrying body pillows) as the definition of the phenomenon, instead of illustrative symptoms of it.
So when I said, “That’s the difference... people didn’t used to do things like hold birthday ceremonies or marriages to fictional characters”, You took that shit literally. Like I was saying the candles themselves are the entire point. Then you accuse me of contradicting myself because you think I “denied” saying that’s the difference. But I didn’t. lol
I clarified that those things are symbolic indicators of a larger ritualized emotional devotion, which is the actual point. So, from where I stand, you’ve been attacking a strawman version of this conversation, focusing on candles instead of culture.
You’re conflating a psychological universal with a modern cultural phenomenon, ignoring the temporal specificity of when waifu culture became socially visible and self-defined, and misrepresenting my examples as pedantic instead of symbolic.
I’ve never argued that desire or fetishism is new. I’ve argued that the communalization and ritualization of affection toward 2D characters is new and that is objectively supportable.
Historically 1st noticed, the first visible use of “waifu” emerged with Azumanga Daioh (2002) and I’ve been into anime since the late 80s. If this phenomenon existed earlier, it would’ve shown up somewhere, even on the early internet of the late 90s, but that shit didn’t.
The Moe boom (late 90s–2000s) made emotional attachment a normalized fan identity. I never claimed an exact date, only acknowledged another user’s point that suggested as much. Prior decades had character admiration, sure... but not self-identified, ritualized waifu devotion.
That’s cultural evolution, not the invention of lust. lol
Fast-forward to fucking now... You’re spinning your wheels... repeating “humans have always been horny” without engaging with the actual premise. You’ve even said, “I don’t really understand the point you’re making now… I’m not going to repeat myself 20 different ways.” That’s not reasoned debate... that’s just fucking frustration.
Meanwhile, I’ve stayed consistent, defined the scope clearly, and used analogies like, “smartphones vs. pocket calculators” and “a guy with a poster vs. a guy holding a birthday ceremony for a JPG”... All this shit to highlight the categorical difference you keep ignoring.
So now, if you keep repeating broad claims about human sexuality, you’re no longer engaging in good faith with the conversation.
| @ColourWheel I mean, one of the ways to tell someone is consistent, and not "frustrated" is by the length and content of what they say. I have kept myself within about a paragraph each time and repeated (despite my dislike of repetitive) the same couple of things; and you've varied between short, and extremely long replies that narratively I can't (or won't try) follow. And you use the typical internet argument of "you refuse to engage" which is nonsense. I "engaged" and told you I disagreed with your 'premise' and am not going to reword it. You should be able to understand the simple argument I made without me having to state "I hereby engage in your premise on the cultural phenomenon of waifus" lol There's another MAL user who does the same thing. It's an exhausting, and for you, frustrating way of talking to people online. You refuse to accept dissent, and so write these paragraphs going in circles accusing ppl of repeating the same thing- uh YES, that is EXACTLY what I am doing because my position hasn't changed... I took a simple position and it remains simple. But you can't just accept that and say hmmmmph, okay. |
SuperAdventureOct 22, 8:17 AM
| @SuperAdventure No... consistency means maintaining internal logic and conceptual clarity, not just limiting shit like reply length. lol Otherwise, by that logic, any shitpost like “I’m right and you’re wrong, so go fuck off!” would count. lol You’re equating brevity with strength of argument, which is false. If anything, one-paragraph replies tend to oversimplify, not clarify. Either way, it’s clear you simply disagree with the premise and reject it outright and that’s fine, but disagreement doesn’t automatically make one side correct. Let’s just agree to disagree and end shit there. lol |
|
Reply to ColourWheel
@SuperAdventure
No... consistency means maintaining internal logic and conceptual clarity, not just limiting shit like reply length. lol
Otherwise, by that logic, any shitpost like “I’m right and you’re wrong, so go fuck off!” would count. lol
You’re equating brevity with strength of argument, which is false. If anything, one-paragraph replies tend to oversimplify, not clarify.
Either way, it’s clear you simply disagree with the premise and reject it outright and that’s fine, but disagreement doesn’t automatically make one side correct.
Let’s just agree to disagree and end shit there. lol
No... consistency means maintaining internal logic and conceptual clarity, not just limiting shit like reply length. lol
Otherwise, by that logic, any shitpost like “I’m right and you’re wrong, so go fuck off!” would count. lol
You’re equating brevity with strength of argument, which is false. If anything, one-paragraph replies tend to oversimplify, not clarify.
Either way, it’s clear you simply disagree with the premise and reject it outright and that’s fine, but disagreement doesn’t automatically make one side correct.
Let’s just agree to disagree and end shit there. lol
At least I've figured out that you definitely don't read fully what people say, because this: ColourWheel said: No... consistency means maintaining internal logic and conceptual clarity, not just limiting shit like reply length compared to this: SuperAdventure said: one of the ways to tell someone is consistent, and not "frustrated" is by the length and content of what they say. I have kept myself within about a paragraph each time and repeated (despite my dislike of repetitive) the same couple of things; You ignored or hadn't read the bold and just went off about paragraph length because I mentioned that first...... and this is precisely WHY I keep my arguments short & concise- because the longer they get, the more disunderstanding can be made, and then it's downhill from there Yes, I disagree that waifu culture is just since the 90s, I think at least since the 70s, and equivalent hobby obsessions about fictional females (or males) probably goes back centuries. The one thing you didn't argue with is that I have no real proof to go back that far |
SuperAdventure said: At least I've figured out that you definitely don't read fully what people say, because this: ColourWheel said: No... consistency means maintaining internal logic and conceptual clarity, not just limiting shit like reply length compared to this: SuperAdventure said: one of the ways to tell someone is consistent, and not "frustrated" is by the length and content of what they say. I have kept myself within about a paragraph each time and repeated (despite my dislike of repetitive) the same couple of things; You ignored or hadn't read the bold and just went off about paragraph length because I mentioned that first...... and this is precisely WHY I keep my arguments short & concise- because the longer they get, the more disunderstanding can be made, and then it's downhill from there Yes, I disagree that waifu culture is just since the 90s, I think at least since the 70s, and equivalent hobby obsessions about fictional females (or males) probably goes back centuries. The one thing you didn't argue with is that I have no real proof to go back that far When someone starts complaining about how another person debates instead of engaging the actual argument, that's usually a clear signal. lol I’ve stated my position clearly, you’ve stated yours... If you didn't understand my last statement here... ColourWheel said: Let’s just agree to disagree and end shit there. lol Then you’re not here to fucking have a conversation anyone. You’re here to try to gain some shit like petty social cookie points and try to win an already dead conversation. lol |
|
| Didn't they make a whole musical album out of Lynn Minmay from Macross? and it sold like billions. Maybe they didn't celebrate her birthday and they didn't fire candles to her, but the mass movement was already there. Through the use of the wallet. |
| Came here, saw pantsushot, feeling content, so I'll leave now, thank you ningen pero~ |
 |
ProudElitist said: Didn't they make a whole musical album out of Lynn Minmay from Macross? and it sold like billions. Maybe they didn't celebrate her birthday and they didn't fire candles to her, but the mass movement was already there. Through the use of the wallet. I see what you are getting at. Lynn Minmay was hugely popular and had albums, but my point isn’t general fandom or spending money on a character. The cultural shift I’m talking about involves ritualized behavior, which didn’t exist back then. For example, fans back then didn’t go out of their way to build their own lives around a Lynn Minmay doll. Nor is there any evidence of fans holding birthday ceremonies, creating shrines, or treating a fictional character as a lifestyle-integrated devotion (to be clear, these are just symptoms). That level of personal, symbolic engagement is what most people define as modern waifu culture, and such a collective clearly emerged much later. Sure, that was a shared movement, but that’s just basic otaku behavior of collecting merchandise. Like, back in the early 80s they released G.I. Joe LPs, including songs performed by fictional characters like Cobra Commander. lol I read that stuff sold like hotcakes to fans, but I highly doubt their was a cultural movement of fans ritualizing the LP or jerking off to Cobra Commander’s voice. lol |
ColourWheelOct 22, 12:40 PM
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Reply to ChouunShiryuu
Came here, saw pantsushot, feeling content, so I'll leave now, thank you ningen pero~
| @ChouunShiryuu if you watch shaider there will be plenty of those. I myself stopped the show and jerked while seeing those. It's also a very good show on its own, better than Gavan. |
ProudElitistOct 22, 10:57 PM
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