How would you rate this character overall?
10
19.2%
10
9
23.1%
12
8
17.3%
9
7
11.5%
6
6
3.8%
2
5
9.6%
5
4
0.0%
0
3
3.8%
2
2
1.9%
1
1
1.9%
1
I do not know this character
7.7%
4
52 votes
Spotlight Character: Lelouch "Zero" Lamperouge (Code Geass) MAL Character Information Page: Lelouch Lamperouge MAL Favorite Character: #6 (with 1015 favorites) For the next week I would like to have everyone familure with Lelouch discuss what they think makes him an exceptional character. What attributes make him stand out in the ocean of interesting characters that exist in the realms of anime and manga. Unlike the other two subjects I will not force this conversation to fall into any set structure. Characters that are nominated typically get here because they are adept at breaking the existing character molds and defying definition. Because of this freedom I encourage everyone to do their very best to stay on topic and keep any and all debate civil. Have fun and I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say about this character. RESULTS OF THE "YOU DECIDE POLL" Lelouch Lamperouge was NOT inducted into the club Character list: 38 Yes - 57.58% 28 No - 42.42% 10 I haven't know this Character - 13.16% of the total number polled |
8GaugeBrettApr 10, 2008 11:32 AM
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| Without going terribly too much into detail, I'll just say a few things. Initially, Lelouch reminded me a lot of Light Yagami from Death Note, but as the series went on I began to grab a better understanding of his motives (I'm not a Light fan). He is a brilliant strategist; initially it appears he "uses" his troops like pawns, but this isn't really the case. He has a human side, which is probably what makes him so believable to me. It is a struggle for him to balance living the life of a normal high school student, and that of Zero. Moreover, his struggles are constantly dedicated to bettering the life of his crippled sister. Sometimes he allows his emotions to slip through, which becomes more and more evident as the series progresses. Overall, Lelouch is a very complex individual. He has passion, determination, fortitude, and possesses necessary leadership qualities. He easily earns a spot on my top 10 characters list. 10/10 |
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| True. At first I thought Lelouch was much like Light but it changed when I watched more and more of it. |
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| Lelouch is very similar to Light Yagami of Death Note, however there are some significant differences which make him different, and better than Light in quite a few ways. For instance, his entire reasoning behind overthrowing a tyrannical empire is for his little sister. There's also Lelouch's natural theatrical side. Nothing he does is ever from the shadows. He stands at the forefront of the revolution proud and willing. |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
Rofelos said: I always felt like Lelouch was just ham handedly conceived, given a sudo-Machiavellian philosophy, and turned loose in a mech action/drama. This doesn't sound bad on paper but something simply didn't translate for me. His soft spot for Suzaku made him rather unlikeable to me. Once Suzaku chose Euphie and Britannia over Lelouch and Nunnally all bets should have been off. Instead he continuously made decisions unbecoming to his purported level of intelligence. This seemed like a forced way of reflecting his "humanity" which is otherwise lacking. I can't see where all this "humanity" so many people mention he posses is. At first his goals of destroying Britannia to create a world Nunnally could live peacefully in seemed simple enough, but by the end his goals became convoluted and often contradictory. His high profile and poor decisions only serve to put his sister in more danger thus farther from his goal than even before he obtained Geass. At that point it seems obvious that a mix of foolish pride and revenge are what are most important to him. Revenge stories are a dime a dozen so I expect the protagonist to have some personality trait that sets them apart from the pack and I don't see that in Lelouch. He isn't a bad character and as far as mech show protagonists go he is one of the better ones. I will give Lelouch a 7/10. Good but nowhere near making the cut for me. This, except I'd only give a 5/10. I don't see any actual humanity or complexity in Lelouch, and consider him to be only a pale shadow the some of the more outstanding revenge-motivated protagonists in literature. I actually liked the guy for a few episodes, but as the show got more and more ridiculous Lelouch also failed to retain any interest. |
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| @Splitter Well you seem to have a unique take on Lelouch since I thought his mother's death might have had a little bit to do with his reasoning as well. And to me, most of what he does is from the shadows. He moves players in the game as if they are pieces for the most part and even when he makes moves of his own, he hides behind a mask. I'm not going to say he should just run around without a mask because that would be unwise. But I guess I just have a different perception of his tactics. I like Lelouch because he seems somewhat similar to Kira Yamamoto from Gundam Seed except without the emo side. Lelouch is not only willing to fight, he's willing to kill. Another thing I like about Lelouch is that it takes effort to accomplish things despite having a superpower. All too often characters are just too powerful for little reason other than to simplify the plot. Using Kira from Gundam Seed as an example...Kira is a coordinator and thus is basically a perfect human specimen. Not only that, but for whatever reason he seems to be superhuman even compared to other coordinators despite their military training. Don't get me wrong, I actually really enjoyed Gundam Seed. I just enjoy things more when a character has to work for their accomplishments. Even though Lelouch had the Geass pretty much fall into his lap, it is hardly an omnipotent power. It has quite a few limitations and, as we see later in the series, Geass isn't the most stable thing either. Some people have brought up something about "humanity". While I'm guessing this refers to Lelouch's ability to retain empathy for those around him despite his cold and calculating tactics...I don't really care about that. To me, humanity is struggling for something. Different people are born with more potential than others, and then to top it off different people find opportunity more often than others. Maybe some of it is a reflection of American values, but I think a person should have to work to attain their goals. If a person has more potential, then they should set their goal that much higher. Maybe it's a throwback to old school pastoralism, but I think even those who are set for life should strive for something beyond their immediate means. Lelouch satisfies all these criteria and that makes him a likable character for me. 7/10 because despite his likability, he is lacking something that I can't quite put my finger on. In Death Note when Raye Penber's wife was coming close to destroying Kira, I was on the edge of my seat. In Code Geass when Lelouch's lifepod and helmet were broken revealing his identity, I was kinda like meh. |
BlackMagicMar 29, 2008 10:57 PM
| No..."humanity" means can I view this character as a real person. Lelouch doesn't give me the impression of a real person, but rather a puppet pulled along by plot strings. I don't get any sort of true internal motivation from him, and his actions seem contrived for the sole effect of a more "dramatic" plot. All flash and no flesh, if you will. |
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| I can kind of see that. Lelouch seems very detached as a character and his voice actor only contributes to this. The fact that Lelouch himself seems so detached from everything kind of keeps me from really getting absorbed in anything that's happening. I get the feeling this anime is going to suffer from "can't kill a main character" syndrome as well, which is always a shame to see. |
| I'm actually pretty torn on Lelouch. I would agree that he has very little in the way of humanity or complexity on his own. However, the way he is used in the story makes it very difficult for me to see what he is supposed to symbolize, especially in contrast to Suzaku. It's actually kind of fun for me to about it in a political theoretical kind of way. I would also argue that Lelouch isn't really revenge-motivated in the same way as he was at the beginning of the story when it all falls apart. |
| Actually Geass was originally slated for a 52 episode run. Due to some circumstances that pretty much forced the writers to rewrite the anime from the ground up, it was probably decided to give Geass a "test run" so to speak. This is why Geass is split into two seasons and why episode 24/25 had an original end so to speak, just in case a second season wasn't green lighted. Sunrise would have been mad not to green light such an overwhelmingly successful series. I believe that Lelouch is probably one of the more compelling characters I've seen in anime thus far. You can even view him as either a protagonist or an antagonist depending on your view point concerning his actions. His determination for building a new world is just pure...A boy at the young age of 10 brutally losing his mother in an assassination, his younger sister left crippled by the event, his own father using him as a political hostage, and the same man himself that indirectly ordered his execution. With all of these reasons in mind, one can't help but wonder that he has every right to exact revenge to those who did this to him...and yet...all he wants is for his little sister to live in a world of peace. As a man willing to overturn the world, he himself is forced to kill his emotions to become an effective leader. Yet he can't...he himself is burdened time and time again by these emotions that will only hinder his plans. Sure he can probably just kill everyone he knows and be done with it, but this certain quality in him is what makes him human. Sure he has goals that exceeds your wildest imaginations, but is it really worth killing who you are inside to achieve your goals? Ah well enough of the long posts, just not my style. Lelouch's struggle within himself is what makes him a great character. He is willing to carry the sins of his friends and comrades to keep themselves "clean". Try finding some anime characters who are willing to carry such a burden. I suggest looking at the other mediums to learn more about Lelouch's character, hell even wait for S2 before deciding that you don't like the guy. |
| If he hasn't started to act like a believable human being in 20 odd episodes, the odds he will in 50 are slim to none. |
kasumisamaMar 28, 2008 11:34 PM
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| Well the argument of acting like a human being in anime is already a bad one... What's not believable about the guy? When he does something that is outside of the people that he cares about, he remains cold and ruthless. When something happens to people he cares about, he gets confused and sometimes panics about the situation. I know that this is anime but I think those are some human-like characteristics right there. The amusing thing about humans is that everyone is different. Your definition of acting human can vastly differ from someone else's. If caring for the people you hold dear to you is not considered a "believable human," then what is? |
| I've already addressed that point. BlackMagic said: I can kind of see that. Lelouch seems very detached as a character and his voice actor only contributes to this. The fact that Lelouch himself seems so detached from everything kind of keeps me from really getting absorbed in anything that's happening. Point missed as well. Detachment has nothing to do with failure to be anything but a passive vehicle for plot necessity. And I actually really LIKED the voice work. |
kasumisamaMar 28, 2008 11:40 PM
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| The thing I like about Lelouch is basically his hubris and hamartia. Despite his usual brilliance, he has flaws that will undoubtedly lead to his undoing, like his foolish hesitation to kill Suzaku when he had the chance. He also seems to think too highly of his own abilities, which can only lead to problems. Because of this, I can only hope for a tragic ending, and I wouldn't say it's unlikely that he might die in the end, in fact, that is what I am hoping for. Of course, Suzaku would have to die too, he is far too annoying to be kept alive -__- I didn't really get any feeling that Lelouch was detached, nor a passive vehicle for plot necessity. |
I don't see any actual humanity or complexity in Lelouch, and consider him to be only a pale shadow the some of the more outstanding revenge-motivated protagonists in literature. I actually liked the guy for a few episodes, but as the show got more and more ridiculous Lelouch also failed to retain any interest. Quite agreed, well the episodes quite good to me. |
Rofelos said: PimpToad said: Actually Geass was originally slated for a 52 episode run. Due to some circumstances that pretty much forced the writers to rewrite the anime from the ground up, it was probably decided to give Geass a "test run" so to speak. This is why Geass is split into two seasons and why episode 24/25 had an original end so to speak, just in case a second season wasn't green lighted. Sunrise would have been mad not to green light such an overwhelmingly successful series. Thanks for the clarification. I must have either misunderstood what I originally read or my memory is just foggy. The point I made though, is after rewriting the first season from the ground up they chose to churn out a puff piece with limited content. PimpToad said: I suggest looking at the other mediums to learn more about Lelouch's character, hell even wait for S2 before deciding that you don't like the guy. This is completely irrelevant. We are judging him by the content currently available to us, not by the potential that he could dispel my opinion of him The material is available to you...o-O If you don't want to buy the Sound Episodes, you can always just read the translations. The Picture Books themselves were subbed by [gg]. Try to think of Lelouch as a man with a split personality. When he is with the Order, he has his Zero personality that is cold and calculating. Behind any closed doors, he reverts to his Lelouch personality and he contemplates and blames himself for anything that happened that is probably beyond his control. |
| @kasumisama I think people might understand your point a bit better if you could provide some examples of either characters you do think act well and how they differ from Lelouch...or maybe give some examples of how Lelouch should have acted to be more human. Really all characters are merely pulled along by plot strings so I think "believability" would be pretty subjective. The only analogy I can think of is the Jerry Springer show and its squabbling theatrics. When Girl A calls Girl B a cum gurgling crotch goblin, it is believable that Girl B would want to respond with hostility. The reactions I would expect are either 1) a very witty verbal jab or 2) a very damaging physical attack. Most people would not use violence since it paves the way for lawsuit. But personally, if I was going to use violence then I would make sure I did something very damaging before the security pulled me away. On Springer neither of these things happen. A small little slapfight occurs and nobody is really worse for wear. In Code Geass, nothing is really standing out to me that seems obviously contrived and unbelievable given the situation Lelouch is in, so I think I might need an example or two to give me a focal point. |
| All the events in Geass seem to come from a need to ADD MOAR DRAMAS NOW rather than more "natural" developments. It feels like things are forced along to make the show more exciting rather than developing more organically, albeit with less theatrics. Since I haven't watched the show in a while, I can't give any specific examples at the moment, but I'll definitely get back to you on that when I think of some. Oh yes. Another thing is that Geass characters are lousy (over)actors, which has nothing to do with the script. |
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| @kasu You are getting a bit offtopic since this thread is for Lelouch, not Code Geass. The show has always presented itself that way, with fast plot developments and plot twists that are completely unexpected but you know is coming due to the information given to you. This also goes hand in hand with Lelouch's personality. He likes to watch "sentai" shows, hence the whole ally of justice kind of thing. Are you just bashing a character/show because you don't like it for some odd reason? Hordes of people who watched the show at an inconvenient timeslot would say otherwise, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You really need to give out specific examples though since until you do, your posts seem nothing more than just pointless trolling. |
| Give me a link to some detailed episode summaries, and I'll do that. And I don't like it because I find it sloppily written and executed. |
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| Oh if you are knowledgeable enough to comment on a/n character/anime, then you should already have some facts to back up your claims. Episode summaries themselves are insufficient since those are biased summaries of the episode. You have to formulate your own opinions based on what you saw, not what others think they saw...or something like that. You just proved my point by writing that down ya know xD |
| Oh wow. You're really not making any sense. Not to mention trolling. If I'm writing an paper on a novel, I'll re-read the book several times before I'm done with the paper. Do you think I would be able to come up with the best examples for my paper if I read the book several years ago and haven't thought much about it since? I think not. Same deal. Episode summaries would refresh my memory enough to remind me of the specific examples you desire. |
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| I'm not desiring anything, I'm asking you to backup your statements. If you make a statement then wouldn't it be natural to support them with evidence? Your analogy itself doesn't make sense since Geass itself is less than a year old after it finished its run. If you also forgot about the story itself, then what the hell are you doing here? You are saying you don't like 'x' character when you completely forgot why you don't like 'x' in the first place? Again, all you are doing is proving that I'm right xD You may want to stop digging yourself in a hole there o-O |
| Ah then you'd be wrong. I remember the overall plot quite well. I don't remember every tiny detail of every episode. And I haven't seen any pro-Lelouch people post anything specific either. So I'm going to bow out until the pro side puts something up. Because talking to a wall isn't the same thing as a real debate. |
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| Hm. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire and I'm aware that this is supposed to be a character debate and not about the show generally... but I've been trying to watch it for a week or two now and I'm having a bit of trouble, um, sitting through episodes of the show. Admittedly, I'm not terribly fond of mecha to begin with. So... obviously I'm not qualified to give an opinion on the character since I'm no where near finished yet, but... um... I don't like the show at all right now and I'm having a hard time imagining that it gets so much better that they chance to really do something with his character. Um... does the show get significantly better as it goes on or is the rest of it more of the same? And I'm certainly not saying anything about people who do like the show -- after all, to each their own -- but I just wondered if it's never going to become my cup of tea. Or do you think this would be better in the anime recommendation thread? I just thought here since we're talking about the main character here. |
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| Usually, the burden of proof lies with the minority side of an argument. Going by the ratings so far, I'd say anti-Lelouch is somewhat in the minority at the moment ^_^ I don't know about others, but personally I'm not looking for anything too specific like "Well when Lelouch takes his coffee in episode 9 he dumps sugar into it which makes me think less of him. He should quit fooling himself and just have some cappuccino." A simple character comparison would be enough to give me a better idea of where you're coming from. |
| You'd be wrong. Burden of proof lies on the side of someone positing that something does exist, rather than claiming something's nonexistence. Majority/minority has no rational bearing on an argument. I'll think of some characters to cross-reference and post something tomorrow. |
kasumisamaMar 29, 2008 11:03 PM
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kasumisama said: Ah then you'd be wrong. I remember the overall plot quite well. I don't remember every tiny detail of every episode. And I haven't seen any pro-Lelouch people post anything specific either. So I'm going to bow out until the pro side puts something up. Because talking to a wall isn't the same thing as a real debate. I've already laid down my claims as to why I like the character Lelouch. You haven't even said anything other than stating that you dislike the anime, which has no correlation to the topic at all. I personally try to avoid comparing characters from different anime. Theres already a good comparison in Code Geass itself, that being Lelouch and Suzaku. Both are burdened by their pasts but handle different situations in their own unique way. I'm not gonna delve more into it since I want to see what kasu will write to defend her side. |
| Um... very generally speaking, the burden of proof falls to the party making an assertion. Uh, in this case, this probably means anyone with an opinion here. Of course, it's usually easier to prove a positive assertion "x exists" rather than a negative assertion "x does not exist." For instance, if Party A asserts "X exists" and Party B denies that, then Party A should prove X exists. Conversely, if Party A asserts "X does not exist" and Party B denies that, then Party A should prove X does not exist. If Party A asserts "X exists" and Party B counter-asserts "X does not exist" then both parties should actually attempt to prove the appropriate point. Um, in a legal context, because of the presumption of innocence, the prosecutor bears the burden of proof in criminal court. However, in civil matters, though the plaintiff bears the burden of proving his/her original causes of action, the defendant is also responsible for proving his/her defense or counterclaim. (Sorry. I really am in an obnoxiously talkative mood tonight. Too much coffee maybe.) |
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PimpToad said: kasumisama said: Ah then you'd be wrong. I remember the overall plot quite well. I don't remember every tiny detail of every episode. And I haven't seen any pro-Lelouch people post anything specific either. So I'm going to bow out until the pro side puts something up. Because talking to a wall isn't the same thing as a real debate. I've already laid down my claims as to why I like the character Lelouch. You haven't even said anything other than stating that you dislike the anime, which has no correlation to the topic at all. I personally try to avoid comparing characters from different anime. Theres already a good comparison in Code Geass itself, that being Lelouch and Suzaku. Both are burdened by their pasts but handle different situations in their own unique way. I'm not gonna delve more into it since I want to see what kasu will write to defend her side. READ PAGE 1! I'm not responding to you further. |
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lowell said: Um... very generally speaking, the burden of proof falls to the party making an assertion. Uh, in this case, this probably means anyone with an opinion here. Of course, it's usually easier to prove a positive assertion "x exists" rather than a negative assertion "x does not exist." For instance, if Party A asserts "X exists" and Party B denies that, then Party A should prove X exists. Conversely, if Party A asserts "X does not exist" and Party B denies that, then Party A should prove X does not exist. If Party A asserts "X exists" and Party B counter-asserts "X does not exist" then both parties should actually attempt to prove the appropriate point. Um, in a legal context, because of the presumption of innocence, the prosecutor bears the burden of proof in criminal court. However, in civil matters, though the plaintiff bears the burden of proving his/her original causes of action, the defendant is also responsible for proving his/her defense or counterclaim. (Sorry. I really am in an obnoxiously talkative mood tonight. Too much coffee maybe.) Awesome totally off topic post dude! xD I oversimplified your post to basically just providing evidence for any claim you make...xD |
PimpToad said: I personally try to avoid comparing characters from different anime. Theres already a good comparison in Code Geass itself, that being Lelouch and Suzaku. Both are burdened by their pasts but handle different situations in their own unique way. I'm not gonna delve more into it since I want to see what kasu will write to defend her side. Um. It's just my opinion and you can ignore it as you will, but I don't really think it's reasonable to avoid comparing characters from different anime. Especially in the context of a club that's attempting to select and recognize excellence from the masses. If you don't compare something to the rest of what you know is out there, how are you going to establish where it fits in the scheme of things? I mean, isn't that one of the reasons for the completed anime/manga list minimum -- to make sure you have a broad base of comparison? If we didn't consider what else is out there, couldn't we pick a character from, like, every anime? For example, Sasuke's character is more interesting than Naruto or Sakura or that little annoying Naruto-wannabe kid, so let's put him in. And comparing Lelouch to Suzaku in that contained way is just like... picking someone you think is cooler rather than a good character, isn't it? ...That's like comparing a single apple to a single orange from one fruit stand instead of trying to find the best fruit in the world. ...Don't you think? [P.S. Really, guys, I apologize for the uncontrolled brain vomit that's spewing out on these threads. I'm just playing devil's advocate with all of you at this point. Sorry -- I haven't even finished this show. Don't take me too seriously. =D] |
lowellMar 30, 2008 12:06 AM
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| Well sometimes tackling indirect tangential issues serves to bring things back on course ^_^ And technically burden of proof has nothing to do with positing something's existence. Take a criminal case for example: The prosecution tries to prove guilt. The defense tries to prove innocence. While you might say the defense does this by trying to prove the absence of things such as evidence, the prosecution does the same by disproving the existence of counter-evidence. Usually both sides will try to prove the existence as well as the nonexistence of various things. But since this isn't a criminal or civil case but just a normal discussion, I would say the burden is on the side making the more unpopular claim..which kinda means they are in the minority :P |
This, except I'd only give a 5/10. I don't see any actual humanity or complexity in Lelouch, and consider him to be only a pale shadow the some of the more outstanding revenge-motivated protagonists in literature. I actually liked the guy for a few episodes, but as the show got more and more ridiculous Lelouch also failed to retain any interest. No..."humanity" means can I view this character as a real person. Lelouch doesn't give me the impression of a real person, but rather a puppet pulled along by plot strings. I don't get any sort of true internal motivation from him, and his actions seem contrived for the sole effect of a more "dramatic" plot. All flash and no flesh, if you will. If he hasn't started to act like a believable human being in 20 odd episodes, the odds he will in 50 are slim to none. Anything else I missed? I don't know if I missed some things, but I believe you forgot to use evidence/comparisons to support your claims. No such thing as a debate since you refuse/don't have anything thus far to support your statements. Again I could be misreading things... @lowell "I personally try" I try to judge a character by their own merits first, then start the comparisons. Doing comparisons first means that you are using character 'A' to judge the merits of character 'B', with character 'A' usually being a character you favor over character 'B'...or something like that o-O An often used comparison is Lelouch and Light Yagami from Death Note. Work with that? xD |
| And you're still completely wrong. No side in a regular discussion has greater burden of proof. I'm highly tempted to make no further responses to you as well. Provide some actual critical (in the humanities department sense) reasoning of Lelouch as an example of good characterization. I'd imagine that it cannot be done. No further response until the pro departments their act together and gives me something besides baseless fanboying to work with. |
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kasumisama said: And you're still completely wrong. No side in a regular discussion has greater burden of proof. I wonder. If the discussion takes the form of an adversarial one similar to a courtroom, then the ultimate objective is to sway majority opinion to one or the other side. In that scenario, the minority would have the burden. On the other hand if the discussion is simply about providing some information, then there is no burden of proof initially. But if someone asks for clarification on a point, then the provider of said point gains the burden of proof. If that person shirks the burden, then it comes at the cost of the point. Doesn't really matter to me since it's your point and your choice. It's just that by shirking the burden, many people will consider your point groundless and ignore it. A couple pro things I mentioned earlier: Despite being a "chosen" one, Lelouch's power is very limited and requires quite a bit of strategy to properly employ rather than just obliterating everything because he "fights for his friends" He is willing to not only fight, but kill which is a plus for me. I get tired of idealistic characters who aren't grounded by reality like Suzaku...though they usually are standard foils for characters like Lelouch |
BlackMagicMar 30, 2008 12:34 AM
BlackMagic said: And technically burden of proof has nothing to do with positing something's existence. Take a criminal case for example: The prosecution tries to prove guilt. The defense tries to prove innocence. ..."X exists" was just a random example of an assertion; you can replace it with any assertion you'd like. Basically, so that it would be easier to follow my thoughts than with just terms like "assertion," "denial of that assertion," and "counterassertion." And, technically, fyi, defense in a criminal case in the U.S. (which is the only system I'm qualified to discuss in any sort of detail) has no obligation whatsoever to prove innocence. In criminal cases, defense actually has zero burden of proof -- of course, it might be easier to win if you do offer some sort of counter to the prosecution, but there is no actual responsibility to do so. PimpToad said: @lowell I try to judge a character by their own merits first, then start the comparisons. An often used comparison is Lelouch and Light Yagami from Death Note. Work with that? xD And that's totally fair -- I do the same. I just got the impression from "I personally try to avoid comparing characters from different anime" that you avoided comparisons with character from other animes completely. If I misread that, that's my mistake. And while I think it isn't so productive to compare character A with a character I just like more, I do think it's potentially enlightening to compare character A with characters B, C, and D (better or worse) if they're all have something in common to base a comparison on. Funny enough, I had compared what little I had seen of Lelouch to Light earlier tonight -- it's nice to know that wasn't just a random thing I imagined ;) -- if you try to judge Lelouch on the merits and you come out on the fence... why shouldn't you compare him to Light, if appropriate or valid? Aren't you sort of... underestimating Lelouch if you avoid the comparison? And who knows what you come up with... you may decide one belongs and one doesn't, but you can also decide both belong, or neither. *shrug* But to use an admittedly extreme example... let's take Simba from Lion King and Hamlet (from Hamlet ;D). They're both princes who lost their fathers to fratricide and are faced with the dilemma of avenging the past crime despite the fact that their personalities are not suited for revenge. If you look at Simba alone, you can come up with whatever... but I think, generally, we can all agree that Hamlet is the superior character and the comparison brings that to light. And I think that exercise may be beneficial whether you start with Simba and then compare him to Hamlet or if you start with Hamlet and compare him to Simba. As to doing an actual, on-topic comparison... I actually can't. I'm having trouble finishing the show. And no matter what I think now, I don't think I should be making judgments based on the 6 episodes I've seen. ;) |
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BlackMagic said: I wonder. If the discussion takes the form of an adversarial one similar to a courtroom, then the ultimate objective is to sway majority opinion to one or the other side. In that scenario, the minority would have the burden. Um, just as another technicality... um, that's actually the exact opposite of the purpose of "presumed innocent until proven guilty." Uh, one of the reasons of the presumption of innocence in the U.S. is so that the minority (/individual) is not unfairly prosecuted by the majority (/state, represented by the prosecutor). There's no numbers game to burden of proof in a legal sense... uh, ever. If you want to talk about something else like, uh, need to persuade or something... that might be more what you're talking about? (Though, in theory, it would be nice to think the majority is right most of the time... but I think we can all site a great number of examples when that was not the case.) (Sorry, I can't let misuse of legal terminology slide. It's a character flaw.) |
lowellMar 30, 2008 12:52 AM
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| I was actually addressing a different post and not trying to refute anything you were saying lowell. I'm pretty versed in the cjus system and only used my example in a very shallow sense regarding positive vs negative assertations without accounting for the various stances of the courtroom workgroup. As far as character comparisons, while sometimes it is possible to compare characters within a series, it is often necessary to compare characters across series when referring to certain traits. If you were talking about a lack of character development, when giving a counter example you would probably have to pick someone from a different series since all the characters in the first likely share the same lack of development. For Light and Lelouch, no reason not to compare. Both are highly intellectual characters who happen to find themselves in the possession of a superpower (albeit a limited one) that has potential to impact the world. Both are teenagers and are kind of falling into the same methods of thinking (employing evil means to pursue a good end). |
BlackMagicMar 30, 2008 1:01 AM
BlackMagic said: I was actually addressing a different post and not trying to refute anything you were saying lowell. I'm pretty versed in the cjus system and only used my example in a very shallow sense regarding positive vs negative assertations without accounting for the various stances of the courtroom workgroup. Sorry, my bad! =) I just got used to playing devil's advocate with absolutely everything for a little while there. XD |
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| I'm only using courtroom examples because it is something basically everyone can picture in their head. On the other hand much of the fine print isn't known by the general public. But in the case of people who actually do have some extra knowledge as you seem to, I can easily add depth to the analogy if need be to avoid confusion ^_^ In a courtroom I probably would refer to it as a "need to persuade" rather than burden of proof. Though for everything else I usually simplify and just call it burden of proof. |
BlackMagicMar 30, 2008 1:15 AM
| So... I'm a little confused. I've been shooting from the hip for the past thousand posts or so, but going back and actually re-reading what happened on the first page... how did this thread turn into this??? ;D To be honest, from the admittedly very limited view that I've had of the show, I personally agree with kasumisama and it sort of seemed like... she wasn't really as a significant minority as it sounded (which is why I'm a little confused by the majority/minority burden of proof thing atm). I mean, she was just more vocal and more firm about her opinion, which is great, but the opinions seemed like 2 for, 3 against (including k-sama -- I wonder if she's going to "D:" at that nickname ;D) and the rest were ambivalent/unclear. ...I'm so confused. ^.^ BlackMagic said: Lelouch satisfies all these criteria and that makes him a likable character for me. 7/10 because despite his likability, he is lacking something that I can't quite put my finger on. In Death Note when Raye Penber's wife was coming close to destroying Kira, I was on the edge of my seat. In Code Geass when Lelouch's lifepod and helmet were broken revealing his identity, I was kinda like meh. kasumisama said: I don't see any actual humanity or complexity in Lelouch, and consider him to be only a pale shadow the some of the more outstanding revenge-motivated protagonists in literature. kasumisama said: "humanity" means can I view this character as a real person. Lelouch doesn't give me the impression of a real person, but rather a puppet pulled along by plot strings. I don't get any sort of true internal motivation from him, and his actions seem contrived for the sole effect of a more "dramatic" plot. All flash and no flesh, if you will. kasumisama said: It feels like things are forced along to make the show more exciting rather than developing more organically, albeit with less theatrics. ...So, uh, would both of you kill me if I suggest as a possibility that maybe the "lacking something" and the "meh" that BlackMagic indicated in his post is actually, in a way, related to the lack of "humanity" (as defined by k-sama as: puppet-like and driven by plot requirements more than true internal motivation) and "complexity" in the character? =) ...Which is actually how I originally read all of those posts until I got sidetracked by my own dislike of the show and the fun of all those tangents in page 2. ;D It may not be persuasive, but... I'm just saying that it could be possible that if the humanity/complexity that kasumisama was looking for actually was there, then Lulu might have been a more compelling character who was capable of moving/affecting BlackMagic as a viewer. And because Lulu was missing that vital element and because of that lack in the development in his character, as stated by kasumisama, Lulu was not able to reach BlackMagic on that visceral level. ...Am I crazy? |
lowellMar 30, 2008 1:46 AM
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| Well I think Lelouch displays human-like characteristics. I'm not going to say I'm well versed in the seriously offtopic crap people seem to be posting in this thread, but would you kindly explain to me as to why you think Lelouch isn't human-like? That's all I'm asking, not some useless jargon you use to confuse the hell out of everyone else. For a guy that is supposedly very active in this club, brett sure isn't doing much to stop the spam. Need I remind everyone who seem to be brain dead that the purpose of this thread is to EXPLAIN why you like/hate the character Lelouch Lamperouge. Anything else can be taken to a spam thread. |
| I think the point isn't so much whether people are disagreeing with what kasumisama is saying, it's that she is just being too vague. Kasumisama says she considers him to be only a "pale shadow of some of the more outstanding revenge-motivated protagonists in literature". That's fine and all, but since that can-o-worms has been opened, I would like some examples of other revenge-motivated protagonists. In addition, I dont know if it would be fair to compare Lelouch to characters in "literature" since that is a different medium than anime and I don't know if many anime characters can stand up to that kind of scrutiny. I don't think anyone really cares so much about personal opinions. These spotlight threads are more about spreading information. So when someone raises an issue, they also need to clarify it enough for others to follow. Having others to bounce your thoughts and ideas off of helps to refine your own opinions and perceptions. I think this is one of the goals of this club's discussions. |
BlackMagic said: I think the point isn't so much whether people are disagreeing with what kasumisama is saying, it's that she is just being too vague. Oh... I see. =) ...Too vague. Then I must have misread this: BlackMagic said: Usually, the burden of proof lies with the minority side of an argument. Going by the ratings so far, I'd say anti-Lelouch is somewhat in the minority at the moment ^_^ That's fine... in which case, please clarify one of your points from the first page. I've been wondering about it, but I felt like it would be nitpicking to ask. Since it seems like you would want to clarify any of your own vagueness and "refine your own opinions and perceptions," please explain. =) BlackMagic said: I like Lelouch because ...Lelouch is not only willing to fight, he's willing to kill. Another thing I like about Lelouch is that it takes effort to accomplish things despite having a superpower... To me, humanity is struggling for something. Lelouch satisfies all these criteria and that makes him a likable character for me. 7/10 because despite his likability, he is lacking something that I can't quite put my finger on... So, willingness to fight/kill and the willingness to struggle for something is all any character needs to be likeable? Isn't the willingness to fight/kill sort of embedded in the larger range of willingness to struggle? So, in actuality, isn't that really just one criterion? What are your other criteria? Or is that the only criterion you base your opinions on? But wait, no... because you say that he is lacking something. It's just that you don't know what it was. So... that indicates there are more criteria than just a willingness to struggle/fight/kill. They're just a mystery -- perhaps to you as well? Is that the case? Maybe your point would be clearer if you spent some time thinking about it and trying to actually get your finger on something? Or is kasumisama the only person who needs to provide actual examples of things that are missing/lacking from the character? Maybe her "vague"-ness would be completely acceptable if she just threw in a disclaimer like "I can't quite put my finger on it but..."? =) And for the record, I understand her point very clearly. ^.^ |
lowellMar 30, 2008 3:27 PM
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| ...it would help if you actually wrote something that is related to the topic itself. All I see are posts trying to rationalize humanities and the burden of proof and everything else but the topic in question. Kasu seems to be hellbent on not providing any evidence and leaving the "pro Lelouch" people to refute her statements with theirs. I may be a simpleton since I need evidence to support a statement, but hey you are probably seeing something I'm not even if you haven't seen the entire series...or the Picture Books...or the Sound Drama...which are all canon btw. Maybe people need to answer some simple questions about the character before posting anything on this thread. Well here is a simple one...what does the name Lamperouge have in relation to Lelouch? If you know even an inkling about Lelouch, then you would know that Lamperouge is an alias that he took. If you don't know the answer to that, then you are probably not versed enough on the topic to comment on this thread any further. Any words admin? |
| When I referred to the ratings so far showing pro-Lelouch in the majority, I'm looking at the actual 1-10 ratings rather than the various posts since more people are voting than posting. That and I'm not saying the minority needs to respond because the majority is ahead and is thus going to win some game. I think there should be a balance of positive and negative perspectives in the thread to give a balanced view on things. While the pro side is giving more examples, there haven't been so many specifics coming from the other. Rather than giving the general "I like Lelouch cause he's so cool and intelligent" I am trying to give extra, more obscure examples. Generally like vs dislike is a gut reaction that is kind of hard to measure without proxy indicators. I mention willingness to fight/kill as an example of something I like about Lelouch and not the only reason I like him. I don't think a willingness to fight/kill is necessary as a trait since it depends on the type of character we're talking about. But, considering Lelouch is planning to cause a revolution and overthrow a government, I am of the mindset that you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette. When looking at the greater good, arguably the needs of the individual are outweighed by those of the many. If a character is really dedicated to the cause, then this is an issue he will be forced to tackle sooner or later. Usually characters who are rooted in ideals rather than reality get on my nerves. The closest example from Code Geass would be Euphemia. The fact that Lelouch strives to keep objective views on things is one of his likable traits for me. But along with this trait usually comes the issue of how far to take the objectivity. Similar to how ideals are eventually a burden under the weight of reality, cold and calculating objectivity comes at the price of your humanity for lack of a better word. My other point about struggling is another reason I like Lelouch. All too often, especially in shounen anime, characters have magical powers rooted in their desire to protect their friends. Examples would be Naruto, Kazuki from Buso Renkin, and Ichigo from Bleach. These characters can magically defeat anyone at any given time when they have some flashback about their friend handing them a snack or something. I get really tired of instant win powers like that. Lelouch's geass is a very limited power. By itself the power is only a tool. And as is the case with tools, their power relies on the skill of their users. These are two qualities of Lelouch that stood out to me since they are usually absent in many other characters. In the absence of traits that get on my nerves, Lelouch has more positive for me than negative. As you have said, I have other criteria...most of them are shallower though. Maybe I like the guy's hairstyle, his voice actor, the way he interacts with the people around him. He reminds me a bit of Kamui from the X tv series and movies which is another CLAMP work. I haven't previously had a reason to refine my feelings about certain characters since most of the time it's just me watching a show and thinking "that Lelouch..he seems like a decent guy. I hope he has the nerve to kill his brother. Whoa, nice" and so forth. I don't really fall in love at first sight with characters. Some of them may catch my eye at first, but their actions either staying in accordance with my opinion of them or not is what ultimately molds my final opinion. Every now and then I will like a character and identify with him and yet they will do something radically different than I expected. Rather than simply turning me off of the character, it may make him more likable since he has managed to redefine a previously narrow archetype. Honestly Lelouch hasn't done this yet, which may contribute to the intangible something that has kept me off the edge of my seat. While this may seem to be a negative thing, I only think it is negative when it comes to our voting to add him as a relation. I have seen enough anime that I don't expect every character I see to redefine my notions on the anti-hero. So basically, my standard for likability is lower than the one I will use to vote for relations of this club. I guess I can see where this thread may have started looking like a witch hunt going after kasumisama, and if that's the case then I'll apologize for any contribution in that direction I might have made. As you have pointed out, my posts have hardly been the pinnacle of enlightenment and I'm well aware of it. That's why I'm looking for people with more negative viewpoints to bounce ideas off of. Since kasumisama was one of the more vocal detractors, I hoped she could clarify a few of her points since it would also help me in making my final determination. |
BlackMagicMar 30, 2008 5:10 PM
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