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How do you perceive the separation between the artist from his art?

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Feb 10, 3:37 PM
#1

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Apr 2024
1704
With the recent tweets of Kanye West , this discussion comes often but I just have a question.
Do you think we should stop listening to his first albums knowing that at the time he created those music's he definitely wasn't the n*zi he is today?
That's just a question I was asking myself recently , please don't hate or anything , I want a genuine and thoughtful response.

I will still listen.
Second fav artist after triple X.
19/09/2025 🕊❤
Feb 10, 4:10 PM
#2

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Jul 2021
2812
its just what Armenian pussy does to mf, I cant even be mad at him. He passed the torch on to Yuno Miles which was probably his best decision in the last 5 years
Feb 10, 4:37 PM
#3

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Jul 2021
10464
The correct way to handle it is to say you never really liked him to begin with.
Feb 10, 5:36 PM
#4
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Jul 2018
561873
It depends. Video games and movies and television shows lend themselves well to the separation of the art from the artist because so many people work on it. Buffy the Vampire Slayer may have been created by Josh Whedon, but there were dozens of people like Sarah Michelle Geller and dozens of other writers that worked on that show without whom the show would not have worked. Their contributions should not be ignored because Josh Whedon was an asshole.

There are times when this does not work, though, such as when the creators behavior is reflected in the art itself. You can’t separate Jeepers Creeper from Victor Salva and his crimes because the Creeper’s modus operandi of chasing young boys is WAY TOO SIMILAR to his real life abuse of a young boy that Victor Salva was convicted of. The opposite case also happens when an artist’s behavior is antithetical to the work they created and their messages.

A less bad example I suppose may be the television series (Actually, web) The Boys becoming a superhero franchise like Marvel despite being critical of capitalism in the context of soulless corporate reboots. I don’t really care for the show now because it is just too hypocritical, and think it’s self-awareness makes it okay. No, it does not.

Then you got works that are from individual artists, and your mileage may vary. I think for deeply intimate works the artist cannot be ignored as it could be for casual entertainment. Like, I cannot read Alice Munroe’s work with any appreciation due to her being complicit in the sexual abuse of her own daughter. Like, does this not make the work feel less genuine if you knew the author did not believe in it, did it for cash, or used AI? Or Sounds of Freedom, where it was alleged that Ballard, upon whom the film was based upon, coerced women into having sex with him and all sorts of horrid abuse allegations. Now assuming it has truth to it…For a film about a man who fights human trafficking, how does this not ruin the film? I don’t want to read a book about how racism is wrong from a white supremacist.

For casual entertainment, I can understand the separation a bit more, to be honest, which brings me to my final point. Sometimes separating the art from the artist is impossible, and that’s okay. If you actually consume art for anything more than distraction, then this is expected. Often, ignoring (Yes, separation is ignoring) the artist in the context of their art makes no fucking sense, as it ignores what “art” fucking is. Not to be a snob, but it is easier to separate art from the artist when it is an MCU movie because those films aren’t really “art” in the first place.

For Kanye, I can’t help but think of the man when listening to his music, and that ruins it for me. Now, I think there is a valid moral argument to not financially supporting awful people, but honestly? He’s repulsive and also fucking sad with his mental health issues. So I don’t listen to his music anymore.
removed-userFeb 10, 5:42 PM
Feb 10, 5:40 PM
#5

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May 2013
8249
There is no moral consumption under capitalism or whatever.

To make my point based on how I actually do things. If I were to morally police myself over media consumption in that I couldn't if any of it was made by terrible people you would come to realize that most mass media is made by pretty terrible people and to keep up with the background of every artist would drive anyone mad. People who say they don't separate are and artist usually use it as an excuse to attack others for said consumption and that is kinda petty and lame. We all draw our lines based on what we value but on the flipside we should chill tf out



♡ Harder Daddy ♡
Feb 10, 6:19 PM
#6

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Aug 2014
4971
Some of the most interesting art out there was made by people who were immoral or deranged.

It's silly (and dare I say, outright anti-intellectual) to cut yourself off from *gasp* looking at or listening to something simply because it's associated with someone you disapprove of in some way.
Feb 10, 6:37 PM
#7

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May 2021
3648
It completely depends on how you feel about the act of consuming his music. In theory, the fact that he is openly a nazi should make you feel something, if it doesn't then why would you stop listening to him? I personally can't listen to music or watch shows from people who are known to be abusers, but that pretty much comes from the artists souring my perception of their work



Feb 10, 7:51 PM
#8
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Jul 2018
561873
Reply to Gween_Gween
It completely depends on how you feel about the act of consuming his music. In theory, the fact that he is openly a nazi should make you feel something, if it doesn't then why would you stop listening to him? I personally can't listen to music or watch shows from people who are known to be abusers, but that pretty much comes from the artists souring my perception of their work
@Gween_Gween Honestly? For Kanye I can kind of understand it because of how he is now. Who wants to look at Kanye as he is now? Now, bipolar disorder is not an excuse, he is not schizophrenic (Which would arguably be an excuse, depending on the severity), but I have admired Kanye to an extent because he initially succeeded in spite of his mental health issues.

I can understand wanting to look back to when Kanye was better, even if this means being really charitable and saying that Kanye's mental illness is that big a factor. Personally it is not, because bipolar disorder does not break your brain to that extent of turning someone into full fledged Neo-Nazi, so I have been told, but I can understand wanting to look back before...all of this. It's like looking at a photo album when you're grieving.

I feel too sad to listen to him these days myself.
Feb 10, 8:42 PM
#9
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Aug 2014
8836
I don't know if you can fully separate the art from the artist unless you know nothing about the artist. Though like you said, people change over time, and you can certainly enjoy the work of person you do not actually care for.
Feb 11, 2:31 AM

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Sep 2016
21367
I perceive that there's a trend into the opposite direction, more art gets canceled because the artists did something unpopular.
No, this isn't my signature.
Feb 11, 2:52 AM

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Dec 2013
15747
There always be the battle between the architect's inner desire for the design, and the external factors (clients' needs, budget, time, etc.)..and it is mostly happen in the schematic design phase, which pretty much 70% determines if the design will be a shitty design or a masterpiece


Feb 11, 7:46 AM
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Jul 2018
561873
@LoveYourSmile

LoveYourSmile said:
Sorry for the serious tone, I simply don't get how this art x artist "coupling" works. If I worried about Stephen King's political views, I would end up reading zero of his novels. That's just the wrong way to approach art imo.


It depends? I certainly do not think you can separate Hemingway himself from A Farewell to Arms. I mean, he did serve in the war, and eventually committed suicide.

It is dishonest and superficial to reduce a work outside of an artist, however external an entity it is. Hemingway's war experience were fundamental to the creation of several of his works. You fundamentally understand works like A Farewell To Arms better in the context of the lives (and times) of their creators. Art is an expression of the self, and when you have deeply intimate work like this, it would be completely dishonest to pretend Hemingway or the life he lived did not factor into the how or why of Farewell to Arms

Putting aside any morality of enjoying a work of creators by bad or less than ideal person, I do not agree with this "approach", being any sort of defense, because it is just willful ignorance. For example, Dickens was socially conscious and hence why his books (David Copperfield, A Christmas Carol, Great Expectation) dealt with the most pressing issues of his time concerning the poor and downtrodden, especially children. He was famous for being a social reformer and crusader of children's rights. His books were intended to spread his very political beliefs for his time.

If you read his book in complete ignorance of the time it was written then yes, I do think you get less out of it; those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

Burroughs was literally a fucking drug addict, much like in Naked Lunch or Junkie. Since art is a fundamental expression of the artist, it cannot be completely impersonal, at least for the artists here I am familiar with. I rather just acknowledge artists as terrible, and then have that conversation of "how do we approach their terribleness in the context of their work" then pretending the artist magically does not exist. Ahistoricity is no virtue.

LoveYourSmile said:
PS: Thinking about my beloved King, I just remembered some oddly specific scene from his Dedication. Oh, boy, how come his "liberal" friends didn't cancel him for that yet?


To be honest, King is a blue-state liberal raised in a red state, in his own words, which he has admitted in his essay Guns. We are not talking Tom Wolfe here, who would actually be considered a conservative, but someone who is at least a centrist.

Even putting that aside, most agree that his best works were written during the most troubled period of his life. The Shining was about an alcoholic and dysfunctional father, whereas Pet Semetary opened with an introduction where King's daughter wandered a bit too close to a road for his liking, and how this influenced Pet Semetary. The stereotypical Stephen King is set in a small-town in Maine for a reason.

Not trying to be too much of a dick here, but I do think the artist and who they are is important to works like these. There are authors out there who do put works out there that don't want their lives to overshadow the works, but that is pretty telling in its own right. Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, who was notoriously private, but you understand Cormac McCarthy and Blood Meridian's themes on violence better if you read his earlier and later works too (Or watched, as is the case of No Country for Old Men)
removed-userFeb 11, 7:50 AM
Feb 11, 8:13 AM
Proud Ushi Simp

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Jan 2019
317
I will never understand the mentality of forcing yourself to stop enjoying something because of something the creator did. The art has nothing to do with the artist imo
Feb 11, 8:25 AM
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@LoveYourSmile

My point is that, even subconsciously, what you know about an artist can influence how you see or understand their works. This can be entirely neutral aspects about non-controversial people, and is not necessarily about dismissing someone's work because of what they've said. Cancel culture? No thank you.
Feb 11, 8:34 AM
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Jul 2018
561873
Reply to Kwanthemaster
@LoveYourSmile

My point is that, even subconsciously, what you know about an artist can influence how you see or understand their works. This can be entirely neutral aspects about non-controversial people, and is not necessarily about dismissing someone's work because of what they've said. Cancel culture? No thank you.
@Kwanthemaster I think the perspective makes sense as well; can any fan of Nirvana listen to their music in the modern day the same way they did before Kurt Cobain's death? You cannot unsee things or unlearn things.
Feb 11, 8:41 AM
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Reply to removed-user
@Kwanthemaster I think the perspective makes sense as well; can any fan of Nirvana listen to their music in the modern day the same way they did before Kurt Cobain's death? You cannot unsee things or unlearn things.
@PeripheralVision
That's true, but I was thinking more at the time the work was created. We all impart something of ourselves into what we create, and so the more you know about the creator, the more you may be able to pick up on that. Though of course, some people can take this too far and at the end of the day, you're also free to derive your own meaning.
Feb 11, 9:17 AM
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Jul 2018
561873
Reply to Kwanthemaster
@PeripheralVision
That's true, but I was thinking more at the time the work was created. We all impart something of ourselves into what we create, and so the more you know about the creator, the more you may be able to pick up on that. Though of course, some people can take this too far and at the end of the day, you're also free to derive your own meaning.
@Kwanthemaster That makes sense. To me, there are two extremes here, and one of them insists on a complete separation of the art from the artist. That positions makes no sense, as logically it should then suppose that not even plagiarism or AI generated anything matters when it comes to our appreciation of art, because the "art" still exists.

Take even a silly show like My Deer Friend Nokotan; should it not diminish the work if the mangaka stole it from someone else, or took credit for something he had no part in? I think if anyone can appreciate art beyond the big explosions of the latest Jason Statham flick, then the artist should matter to an extent, because art is a personal endeavour. All artistic creations are, I would say. As you said

We all impart something of ourselves into what we create, and so the more you know about the creator, the more you may be able to pick up on that.


Appreciating art without appreciating the artist is like trying to claim someone as your best friend without even knowing their name.

More than that, this extreme position insists that we have an imperative to ignore the artist lest it infringes on our enjoyment or appreciation or their work, or that we should ignore it, but this ignores the fact that you cannot simply ignore things, nor does it make a very good argument why. It is a very ends justify the means sort of way to approach art, and I think that is intellectual bankrupt on some level. Though I do agree this

Kwanthemaster said:
Though of course, some people can take this too far and at the end of the day, you're also free to derive your own meaning


...does happen, especially in a parasocial stance. The art cannot replace the artist, and the artist cannot replace the art. Some readings are just unhinged. Others lack nuance of the entire writer that cannot be gleaned from their works.

For example, Ludwig Wittgenstein is known for Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, something he later disagree with/found dissatisfactory. Or Thomas Merton and his biography The Seven Storey Mountain, in which he later wrote "I do not know that man" when referring to his younger self who wrote it. Personally, I think you can derive value from these works in spite of the authors even disavowing them to an extent.
removed-userFeb 11, 9:20 AM
Feb 11, 5:59 PM

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Jul 2021
10464
@LoveYourSmile Everything I know of those two I have learned against my will.
I'm pretty sure I never listened to a single song of his.
Feb 12, 1:29 AM

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Jul 2014
7299
I've got no guilt or shame about still listening to Kanye's back catalogue, just won't be listening to anything new he puts out or buying any of his merch. He was an exceptional artist at his peak, and no amount of edgelord Twitter rants will change that.
Take care of yourself

Feb 12, 4:09 AM
Émilia Hoarfrost

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Dec 2015
4321
Separating the art from the artist is ill-defining the "art of life"



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