| Frieren's demons are not merely a different race, they're a whole different species - A natural predator of humans, that co-evolved with them, and is using an actual real-life evolutionary adaptation known as "aggressive mimicry". They look similar to humans and are capable of speech, not because they descended from the same common ancestor, but because they evolved to prey on humans. By making them this way the author avoided the threat of making them cartoonishly evil, after all, they're only acting according to their nature. However, once you understand their true nature it's hard not to see them as irredeemable, incomprehensible monsters. From that perspective, there's not a single reason not to treat them as a threat/enemies. There's really not a single reason to even let them live. After all, why would you want to coexist with your predator? Anime demons are a case of a common trope being subverted so much and so often, that it's no longer common, thus playing that trope straight feels refreshing. It's way too common for fantasy anime to depict demons as very similar to humans in their personalities and appearance and also victims of prejudice and persecution. This alone puts Frieren above most other fantasy anime in terms of creativity. |
Tulkas_AstaldoOct 20, 2023 10:43 AM
Simply reinvigorating to see complex irredeemable demons again, creatures cunning and not to be reckon with. Past few years are fill mainly with butt of a joke subversive demon-lords , some are fun yes, but most others are just overdone. |
| Devilman, as far as I remember from the manga, does that too. Shin Megami Tensei series (I'd say Devil Survivor is the closest, but overall main franchise does a good job at this) is also pretty close to that depiction. Basically, you'd have to go for either more gore(?) or video game route in order to find more of this. It's uncommon, but I wouldn't call it original nor fresh. |
 ❝Only you can save yourself.❞ I only know what I know, I guess? Yuri enjoyer and El Cazador de la Bruja fan |
Reply to BetterBegoneThot
Devilman, as far as I remember from the manga, does that too. Shin Megami Tensei series (I'd say Devil Survivor is the closest, but overall main franchise does a good job at this) is also pretty close to that depiction.
Basically, you'd have to go for either more gore(?) or video game route in order to find more of this. It's uncommon, but I wouldn't call it original nor fresh.
Basically, you'd have to go for either more gore(?) or video game route in order to find more of this. It's uncommon, but I wouldn't call it original nor fresh.
| @BetterBegoneThot Yes, I'm sure, there are some other works that depict demons in a similar way. But like I said before "Anime demons are a case of a common trope being subverted so much and so often, that it's no longer common, thus playing that trope straight feels refreshing." I'm talking in relative terms. It feels refreshing because it's so uncommon. |
| The seventh episode reminded me a lot of Mahouka, with a hint, whether intentional or not, that peaceful initiatives could be a cover for cynical aggression. |
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Reply to BetterBegoneThot
Devilman, as far as I remember from the manga, does that too. Shin Megami Tensei series (I'd say Devil Survivor is the closest, but overall main franchise does a good job at this) is also pretty close to that depiction.
Basically, you'd have to go for either more gore(?) or video game route in order to find more of this. It's uncommon, but I wouldn't call it original nor fresh.
Basically, you'd have to go for either more gore(?) or video game route in order to find more of this. It's uncommon, but I wouldn't call it original nor fresh.
| @BetterBegoneThot Devilman Lady, or rather its adaptation, which deviated quite a lot from the manga, turning the female Devilman into a near-lesbian drama about tolerance. The original title simply used demons as an anti-war metaphor. |
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RobertBobert said: @BetterBegoneThot Devilman Lady, or rather its adaptation, which deviated quite a lot from the manga, turning the female Devilman into a near-lesbian drama about tolerance. The original title simply used demons as an anti-war metaphor. I'm talking about original Devilman, which is the only one I've read so far. Can't talk about neither its anime adaptations nor the spin-off you mentioned (which truth be told, all I heard about that spin-off is that it's straight up bad). |
❝Only you can save yourself.❞ I only know what I know, I guess? Yuri enjoyer and El Cazador de la Bruja fan |
Reply to BetterBegoneThot
RobertBobert said:
@BetterBegoneThot Devilman Lady, or rather its adaptation, which deviated quite a lot from the manga, turning the female Devilman into a near-lesbian drama about tolerance. The original title simply used demons as an anti-war metaphor.
@BetterBegoneThot Devilman Lady, or rather its adaptation, which deviated quite a lot from the manga, turning the female Devilman into a near-lesbian drama about tolerance. The original title simply used demons as an anti-war metaphor.
I'm talking about original Devilman, which is the only one I've read so far. Can't talk about neither its anime adaptations nor the spin-off you mentioned (which truth be told, all I heard about that spin-off is that it's straight up bad).
| @BetterBegoneThot The manga is mostly just a female Devilman, taking into account the time difference and the development of Nagai's tastes. Adaptation is a slightly different work, although I do not rule out that the increased interest in it could only be caused by the yuri bait factor. For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, the modern Western Devilman fandom largely consists of obsessive slashers, while the franchise has always been aimed at the eroguro audience. Especially after CryBaby, which became even more hipster-oriented. |
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Reply to Moppit
They already have that with Helck this season. There's older animes that do the same thing. If I remember them later, I'll post them. This isn't as significant as you think. Just not used a lot.
Moppit said: That's what I mean by refreshing, though. The fact that depicting them as unredeemable (from human perspective), while also not being evil for the sake of it, is uncommon. Also, the fact that demons are not really a race but a different species. Frieren said it herself. "They are descended from monsters who cried 'help' from the shadows to lure humans to them". Therefore they are a threat not by some unfortunate circumstances, but by their very nature.This isn't as significant as you think. Just not used a lot. Also, I've never watched or read Helck, but from what I've heard about it, it's the exact opposite of what you're describing. |
Tulkas_AstaldoOct 20, 2023 12:50 PM
| What do you mean "irredeemable"? They just need to kill humans. That's all they're asking for! Is that really too much to ask? |
ChainxBastard said: It's nothing crazy honestly or creative. There are a lot of implications with this route that I know this anime won't get into with detail and give it the proper nuance, same with the issue with Frieren being an Elf and how the Efl race is depicted. It's not bad at all but I do wish for more depth that I'm ultimately sure that I will never get. Which implications are you looking for though? The manga does explore further the demons and their nature in later chapters. Although, the anime probably won't get to cover those chapters until a season 2. |
| Yeah, demons being misunderstood good-guys or them being empathetic is getting old. Rare case when I'm all for the extermination of the entire species. Demons need to goooo. |
Reply to ChainxBastard
It's nothing crazy honestly or creative. There are a lot of implications with this route that I know this anime won't get into with detail and give it the proper nuance, same with the issue with Frieren being an Elf and how the Efl race is depicted. It's not bad at all but I do wish for more depth that I'm ultimately sure that I will never get.
| @ChainxBastard Maybe not crazy, but demons here are certainly very creatively done. It also has fair share of nuances already. Elves in other hand are quite opposite case. While demons received pretty inovative approach, elves are very "standard", but that's not bad thing either as there is not many works that actually deeply explore what being standard elf means beyond reason why elves girl play hard to get for human suitors... |
| Btw, I don't think the show properly established that demons can't be negotiated with/no peace agreement can be reached. It was shown that their values are different and that they don't have concepts of family, but they still seem to value their lives, for example. It's also not explained why they want to kill humans. A position might still be reachable that allows for peaceful coexistence. Maybe more info is added in the future that removes that possibility, but this episode alone isn't enough. |
| You are technically right. Demons can be negotiated and peace agreement can reached. Point is demons would never even consider keeping their part of deal, that's already firmly established. Words are just fishing baits and fisherman will not became friend with fish just because former is willing bit into lure... |
Reply to Tenzen12
You are technically right. Demons can be negotiated and peace agreement can reached. Point is demons would never even consider keeping their part of deal, that's already firmly established. Words are just fishing baits and fisherman will not became friend with fish just because former is willing bit into lure...
| @Tenzen12 The question would be which desire is greater: survival or killing of humans. |
| I agree! It's very refreshing to see the author actually try to show us a completely different species with a different moral set, rather than DEMON LIKE HUMAN, WE SHOULDN'T DISCRIMINATE trope, or the DEMONS ARE MORE HUMAN THAN HUMANS trope. I'm excited to see what other species they talk about. So far it's been Elves (Frieren), Demons, and a bit of Dwarves and other commonly known mythical creatures. Seems like demons are mostly irredeemable for the most part tho. |
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Reply to Menternor
ChainxBastard said:
It's nothing crazy honestly or creative. There are a lot of implications with this route that I know this anime won't get into with detail and give it the proper nuance, same with the issue with Frieren being an Elf and how the Efl race is depicted. It's not bad at all but I do wish for more depth that I'm ultimately sure that I will never get.
It's nothing crazy honestly or creative. There are a lot of implications with this route that I know this anime won't get into with detail and give it the proper nuance, same with the issue with Frieren being an Elf and how the Efl race is depicted. It's not bad at all but I do wish for more depth that I'm ultimately sure that I will never get.
Which implications are you looking for though? The manga does explore further the demons and their nature in later chapters.
Although, the anime probably won't get to cover those chapters until a season 2.
| @Menternor I really wish I could see Macht animated |
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| Its crazy because we've only gotten that mindset with the absolute flanderization of demons in isekai animes and harem power fantasy schlock. Frieren puts the demon back into demons, and I fucking love it. Makes me miss Berserk frfr. |
RobertsahDHDAOct 20, 2023 10:11 PM
| Keep scrolling |
| Haha take a note Neet Otaku tensei |
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Reply to NotDigit
@Tenzen12 They could make it mutually exclusive
| @NotDigit So far we didn't see any magic that can enforce obedience and if there were demons would find loopholes. Again demons aren't capable of communication. Speach is NOTHING but mimicry. Peacock cannot use their feathers to see, because it isn't real eyes. Flower Flies cannot sting just because they look like wasps and demons cannot be reasoned just because they use words |
Tenzen12Oct 21, 2023 4:43 AM
Reply to Tenzen12
@NotDigit So far we didn't see any magic that can enforce obedience and if there were demons would find loopholes. Again demons aren't capable of communication. Speach is NOTHING but mimicry. Peacock cannot use their feathers to see, because it isn't real eyes. Flower Flies cannot sting just because they look like wasps and demons cannot be reasoned just because they use words
| @Tenzen12 That makes sense, but it was shown that the demons use the same language to talk to each other even when there are no humans around. The language does convey meaning if they talk about their secret plans in it. There is also some logic in wanting to replace the killed daughter with another one. There seems to be some logic to them, it's just very different to how human society works. Even if you compare demons to animals, dogs and cats got domesticated, why not demons? It might be simpler to do that than to eradiate them. |
Reply to NotDigit
@Tenzen12 That makes sense, but it was shown that the demons use the same language to talk to each other even when there are no humans around. The language does convey meaning if they talk about their secret plans in it. There is also some logic in wanting to replace the killed daughter with another one. There seems to be some logic to them, it's just very different to how human society works. Even if you compare demons to animals, dogs and cats got domesticated, why not demons? It might be simpler to do that than to eradiate them.
| @NotDigit Because dogs and cats see humans as part of their family and demons have no such concept in first place. Demons don't feel any camaraderie even with each other so it wouldn't be possible transfer something that doesn't exist among themselves to other spieces. |
Tenzen12Oct 21, 2023 6:10 AM
| They kind of ARE depicted as typical demons, aka handsome, yet evil humanoids with horns and/or tails, indifferent to human emotions, tho. The only thing setting them apart from the stereotypical devil is the little backstory about the demon killing the chief, we've got. I do think the Show is special in giving this standart setting a new twist., but I don't think the demons are a huge part of what makes this Show different. |
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Reply to Merve2Love
They kind of ARE depicted as typical demons, aka handsome, yet evil humanoids with horns and/or tails, indifferent to human emotions, tho.
The only thing setting them apart from the stereotypical devil is the little backstory about the demon killing the chief, we've got.
I do think the Show is special in giving this standart setting a new twist., but I don't think the demons are a huge part of what makes this Show different.
The only thing setting them apart from the stereotypical devil is the little backstory about the demon killing the chief, we've got.
I do think the Show is special in giving this standart setting a new twist., but I don't think the demons are a huge part of what makes this Show different.
| @Merve2Love That's the thing. Demons here are not really evil. In same way natural predators like cats or wolves aren't evil. That's what makes these demons different. |
Tenzen12 said: @Merve2Love That's the thing. Demons here are not really evil. In same way natural predators like cats or wolves aren't evil. That's what makes these demons different. They are^^ The young demon decapitated a guard, just to kill Frieren, while Lügner-Sama is telling the father lie. You're talking nonsense^^ |
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Reply to NotDigit
@Tenzen12 The question would be which desire is greater: survival or killing of humans.
| @NotDigit As a manga reader - The possibility of coexistence is actually going to be one of the themes of one of the future arcs. They probably won't adapt it this season, though. We'll be seeing more demons and learn about their thought processes throughout the series. (if it ever gets season 2) |
Reply to NaoKurobane
Just wait until season 2 (if there'll be any) and you'll really see why demons in Frieren are an absolute masterpiece.
I really hope that they'll make a season 2... I really want that part to be animated.... I really need it
I really hope that they'll make a season 2... I really want that part to be animated.... I really need it
| @NaoKurobane Mind developing that? |
Saimatsu_Fan said: ah yes because demons only exist in these genres and only exist as evil in these genres you're so smart Did you quote the wrong person my fellow troll? Cus that strawman is so poorly made, our kind would be ashamed. |
| Keep scrolling |
Reply to Merve2Love
Tenzen12 said:
@Merve2Love That's the thing. Demons here are not really evil. In same way natural predators like cats or wolves aren't evil. That's what makes these demons different.
@Merve2Love That's the thing. Demons here are not really evil. In same way natural predators like cats or wolves aren't evil. That's what makes these demons different.
They are^^
The young demon decapitated a guard, just to kill Frieren, while Lügner-Sama is telling the father lie.
You're talking nonsense^^
| @Merve2Love I don't see your point. Of course predator would kill their prey. If demons are evil, then any carnivore or omnivore is evil. Humans included. |
| They didn't strike me as malicious for the sake of being malicious for no other reason than malice itself and to cause suffering, pain, and loss for its own sake to those who have done nothing to them, in an inexplicably cartoonish (or...anime-ish, I suppose) way. Rather just vicious. Naturally primal and vicious like a cheetah or python seeking its prey. For example, the demon girl in that village portrayed in Frieren's flashback in the latest episode did not And we don't think of cheetahs, pythons, or any other non-human predator animal in the wild as malicious or "evil" in a moral/philosophical way do we? Generally they are just thought of as animals in the wild, doing their thing, acting in accordance with their instincts and nature, and as immovable and inseparable from their nature as viruses from hijacking target host cells and self-replicating or static electricity building up in the atmosphere causing a lightning storm. But partially that's because those animals are anthropomorphized, considered as "innocent" akin to human children as it is believed they could not possibly have the same level or degree of free will in the same way as is self-attributed to humans, due to assumed lower mental capacity shaping their entire conscious experience of themselves, others, and their surrounding environment. Yet the problem with this arrogant baseless assumption is that humans, collectively, are neither intelligent nor advanced enough at this present stage of history to even come close to beginning to understand the subjective experience of the world from the perspective of another species. They cannot even, within their own one species, decode fully the human brain, its inner workings, and adequately account for the the sheer range of neurological variances within humanity itself. So another species? Forget it. Those who believe it are supremely wrongheaded and only fooling themselves, I believe. Anyway, back to the portrayal of demons specifically in Freiren thus far, it struck me, as I said, that they're not intended to be portrayed as mindless troublemakers, but more like an extreme version of the differences and gap in understanding between foreign human cultures, or, even more to the point, neurotypes. Because even if they all utilize human speech it doesn't mean they're remotely compatible for daily living alongside one another. If a dinosaur were transported through spacetime and granted the power of being able to intelligibly speak a human language like Japanese, English, or Arabic, it doesn't mean they still wouldn't want to devour every human, every cow, and every other mammal in sight. Or that people would either want to or even safely physically be able to live with or near them. But would that make them evil or villains? Generally dinosaurs aren't thought of that way either. Or wolves or bears. And so on. You get the picture. It's the same thing here. And for the purposes of comparison I am indeed lumping Frieren in with the humans, since it's implied that elves are closer to humans than they are to demons or non-humanoid monsters based on the way Frieren views and speaks of herself, treats and interacts with humans. And the revelation that elves either at this stage now or always were an extreme minority, so it makes sense if many from their numbers blend and assimilate into human societies over time anyway whether as a survival mechanism or mere preference. In a way, the willing depiction of organisms being unrestrained and prepared at any second to enact behaviors of ruthless indiscriminate brutality not for the pleasure of causing harm itself but because of the recognition of its utility in service of a goal and apathy to any other concern is the most respectful and thoughtful of all, because it is the most true to life. From the human perspective (or an enlightened human-adjacent mage Frieren perspective, omnipotent by comparison to this naive and unprepared town community), it's logical and valid to want to exterminate the demons to the last like cockroaches and any other embodiment of filthy vermin. From the demon perspective, it's logical and valid to view the humans in this community - in any community - as a herd of cattle or pigs waiting to be farmed, dominated, and butchered, if they succeed in charming and fooling them into walking into their own deaths. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 21, 2023 5:46 PM
| It's good that demons are this way, because those who aren't and try to understand and empathize with humans are the worst |
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