Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu Part 2 Episode 9 Discussion

Raptor1221 said:
...but the showing being framed to the subjective perspective of its characters rather than omniscience is pretty clear right? Like allot of visual works frame to subjective and character to some capacity, it's one of the basic framing types along with objective. Mushoku does it primarily to character and subjective it's not particularly special to do so. Lots of things afterall feature monologue as well as subjective and POV shots, but rarely to the excess of Mushoku. So saying it frames to subjective / character rather than omniscience seems apt.

Mushoku's camera does also have some unreliability at times though it's infrequent. We see it with Paul's bit of insanity from his perspective as well as sometimes with Rudeus fantasies.

The main unreliable bit of the narrative comes from Rudeus' narration through monologue not so much the camera. Which is often contradictory to things playing on screen and give a nice contrast to his state of mind vs what's going on. The Paul bar scene where he's happily regaling his adventure while taking no note of his father's anger or the heavy atmosphere of the bar is a great example.

Tylaen said:
It's about as apt as saying it about any other isekai monologuing about themselves, their thoughts, their perspective, etc. Even if it's somehow more utilized here, that is not an indicator of anything except excessive use of a framing device.

Citation needed. Bring up a specific timestamp and scene, and we can talk about it but know that even if I grant you one scene, that would not somehow absolve all others of which I frequently criticize for their framing. On top of that, I've had this conversation a bunch, and hence my comfort in mocking it. Don't expect fruit in this conversation if you wish to pursue it.

You know I haven't really said anything contradicting Rudeus's "unreliable" monologuing, right? I was contesting this idea that the camera was not to be trusted, a pawn of Rudy's every whim.

What you're going on about here? I hold no qualms against it. Go wild, it affects none of my thoughts regarding what you replied to.

Raptor1221 said:
For your curiosity the scene with Paul's insanity was when he saw that image of a mangled Rudeus before him in his bedroom in episode 17. He sees it as real and it's a real image to the camera, but by all means we the audience know it isn't real.

The camera is not really controlled by the character in a Deadpool sort of 3rd wall breaking sort of way, but often framed by the director in to show us how a character sees things and the emotions that they feel from those things, that is subjective framing. In Mushoku it uses liberal use of POV into subjective shots for framing to character giving what they see into a direct tie of the emotional response. Which is classically used in many visual works to communicate how the character is feeling to the audience, but it is not necessarily how the audience should feel. This is how I see the direction and framing of the show looking at it in a textbook view, but again you said this would be fruitless and you don't agree. I've said my piece so we'll leave it at that.

Well if I should expect no fruit in it then I guess we best drop it here.

Tylaen said:
Suffering what basically what amounts to a cartoon rape villain taken straight out of SAO's second arc, who I wouldn't put past licking the tears off of Asuna's face either. This mini-arc was a pain to endure.

Then there are these guards, none of them loyal to Rape face guy, somehow having their families threatened by some sort of other guards who we never see and they aren't important because Ruijerd takes care of it. Given we've seen no guards remotely loyal to this guard beyond superficiality, how am I to assume they'd kill their fellow guard's families on his whim?

Stacked on top of this is some unseen ruler king guy who holds both responsible afterwards because of reasons...???, even though he'd tolerated them holding their own guard's families hostage over what I presume to be trivial shit. The lack of an authority figure in all of this really hurts my brain, like a missing connective tissue because this scenario feels a lot like "Lol just because". Don't really care if it's important later.

What was important was that I be subjected to 5 straight minutes of two guys gushing over a pre-pubescent-looking figurine instead of even attempting to make the current arc enjoyable in any fashion.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:

Nah, something's not right... this is supposed to be the best Isekai evah, with great worldbuilding and shiet. F'ing average Isekai, such as "Seirei Gensouki" had better worldbuilding than this lol. It seems like we're leaving the kingdom already, and what did we learn about it? What about the furry-village earlier this season? Nah, better concentrate on pedo-shit, Roxy's panties, figurines, horny elfs, masturbation and tiddies instead. *chef's kiss* 10/10

By the way, they will add an aditional "explicit" scene of that horny elf in the DVD release.. Because this anime really needed more of that....

Rekuiemu said:
Cringe episode, I facepalmed a lot. Also slice of nothing happens. World building yeah, what a great world.
Now there is the bootlicking prince, he doesn't seem to be weak (he's not fat). People have superhuman strength in Mushoku so can't say that he's not relatively weak but I assume he'd have some advanced level combat capabilities he must have good trainers, he has high status as a price yet drools over figurines and attempts to lick the boots of some child. What a disgrace, hard to watch cringe. That's it, there is no redemption or seriousness in this story, and another evident thing is what Lilia has sad. She said that Aisha is dumb because she can't comprehend how brilliant her onii-chan is but Aisha shit tested Rudy at the end and did great. Oh well Aisha is dumb maybe due to not appreciating the perversion of her brother, what else can be made of Lilia's statement? Well Rudeus is genius, that's admirable but is really that what a little sister should care most about her big brother.

tofei said:
So the princes of Shirone, well at least the two who were shown already are basically useless and a pain in the arse to deal with

As I suspected it, the clever half-sister knew all along.

I'm not worried about Zenith, she'll probably survived where she ended up being a retired experienced adventurer, Slyphiette though....

Johnny00 said:
Y’all need to stop defending the series, better laugh at the hate reviews instead. It’s clear some people here are so b*tth*rt from the success of the series that they love to hate on it even if the reviews are amazing lmfao.

Keep crying y’all. The reviews are speaking for themselves. Go touch some grass instead.

Tylaen said:
What was important was that I be subjected to 5 straight minutes of two guys gushing over a pre-pubescent-looking figurine instead of even attempting to make the current arc enjoyable in any fashion.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:
Nah, something's not right... this is supposed to be the best Isekai evah, with great worldbuilding and shiet. F'ing average Isekai, such as "Seirei Gensouki" had better worldbuilding than this lol. It seems like we're leaving the kingdom already, and what did we learn about it? What about the furry-village earlier this season? Nah, better concentrate on pedo-shit, Roxy's panties, figurines, horny elfs, masturbation and tiddies instead. *chef's kiss* 10/10

Tylaen said:
When the going gets tough, just call the opposition trolls. It's your one-stop-shop item to discredit literally anything with minimum effort!

Try calling whatever you disagree with trolling, the results will astound and amaze!

Avicebrons said:

Well you probably have something lowly rated that I probably have highly rated. That means your taste is trash, because we obviously use my taste as the standard. And if your taste is trash how can I trust anything you say even though your taste having no relevance in the statements that you make. I asked everyone who loves this show if they love the show and they all said yes. This clearly proves that you're just a hating contrarian whose trolling for attention smh.

dabdabgoose said:
Ah well I got time I'll bite, please explain your view that Seirei Gensouki has better world building.

It's just given your tag teaming with an obvious baiter who has complained about every single episode soo far usually over the most minor insigificant things which just makes me wonder how he still is watching I don't have much hope for an coherent view here.

Conceptualhero said:


Seiirei Gensouki is really...shit. The animation was flat out horrible lol. Does it get better?

dabdabgoose said:
Ah well I got time I'll bite, please explain your view that Seirei Gensouki has better world building.

It's just given your tag teaming with an obvious baiter who has complained about every single episode soo far usually over the most minor insigificant things which just makes me wonder how he still is watching I don't have much hope for an coherent view here.

I don't have much hope for an coherent view here

Avicebrons said:

I'm not exactly sure why you are asking me this instead of the person who made the comparison? I just generally agreed with what they said about the world building being poor and them focusing on "pedo-shit, Roxy's panties, figurines, horny elfs, masturbation and tiddies instead". Not the part about Seirei Gensouki specifically. I haven't even seen Seirei Gensouki. Although with how poor the world building in MT is, it's not exactly hard to imagine something being better at it.

But here you're also proving the point was being poked fun at. You're so quick to call "troll", "bait" and whatnot. And even before you have heard the other side, you preface it by saying:With that kind of mindset it seems like even if someone would give you a coherent view, you would still find a way to dismiss it.

dabdabgoose said:
Alot of the things your complaining about is part of the world building, but your pre emptively writing it off as tropes.

All of it is important and gets addressed later but it's hard to go into detail without spoiling. It's just the writing direction the author goes with laying ground work for future scenes with what looks like filler at the time.

The Horny Elf is a perfect example of that, same with episode 19 as Aisha and Zanoba are important characters for the show but your only getting a little taste of them now.

dabdabgoose said:
Alot of the things your complaining about is part of the world building, but your pre emptively writing it off as tropes.

All of it is important and gets addressed later but it's hard to go into detail without spoiling. It's just the writing direction the author goes with laying ground work for future scenes with what looks like filler at the time.

The Horny Elf is a perfect example of that, same with episode 19 as Aisha and Zanoba are important characters for the show but your only getting a little taste of them now.

Avicebrons said:
It's up to the author to make something good without the audience needing the knowledge of future episodes.

Avicebrons said:

Part of world building or not it's still really bad. Hence the world building being bad.

The rest of what you're saying is simply "this will be important later because I know what's going to happen". Okay? But this is a discussion for what we've been shown so far. I don't exactly see how you can dismiss people criticizing something if they've watched all content that is available in the selected medium. That's quite literally what episode discussions are for...

And I would still call it bad if it's not even introduced in a well written way. Introduction is almost as important as consequence. Future episodes might make you look at earlier episodes in a new light. But that also doesn't mean that you suddenly travel back in time and enjoy your first watching of those earlier episodes. It's up to the author to make something good without the audience needing the knowledge of future episodes.

Conceptualhero said:

Mushoku Tensei opt out of a traditional OP and instead uses the time to showcase backgrounds of the places the main characters are located. I can't think of an isekai series that goes that far to point out some of the details to the viewers.

Conceptualhero said:


You mean the director. It has been stated numerous time that the anime skipped out on certain events that happened in the light novels. I do not think the "author" is at fault since they aren't the one directing the anime.

dabdabgoose said:
For instance Lilia saying in episode 4 she would get her daughter to serve rudeus as a maid for saving their lives and then in episode 20 that comes to light, zanoba being teased in the background of Roxy in shirone(seems insignificant but he was perplexed by the Figurine which came up later)

Even things such as Ghislaine talking about her party and they had a shadow of all the members, watching that now you can actually name them all when all you knew was 3 at that time. Could even add Roxys real age being in her 40s but Rudy thought she was a teen, then you got Roxys former party who both of the living members had an encounter with Rudeus and his crew.

I can name more but it's all there to see, the world building is quite detailed and heavily forshadowed in the writing your just missing it.

That said this show is made to be rewatched to get the full picture, without it your missing half the context of the story I would say, it's like watching a new show with all the information.

dabdabgoose said:
Even things such as Ghislaine talking about her party and they had a shadow of all the members, watching that now you can actually name them all when all you knew was 3 at that time.

Avicebrons said:

As soon as you compare it to other isekais, you're already setting the bar extremely low.


I meant it more as a general statement. The author, director, writer, whoever that is the lead in presenting the story whether it be in the LN, manga or anime, will have the responsibility to make sure that the story can be enjoyed chronologically. I simply said author cause that's the highest on the ladder. But of course if the anime director cut something then the author can't be blamed if it's bad as a result of the cutting. But then again, maybe said thing was bad even before the director cut it, in which case the author is to blame.

Point was simply that it's valid to criticize something based on what you've seen so far. As long as it's transparent.

Or maybe I'm not missing it, it's just not as impressive as you're making it out to be. Even basic generic and bad animes like Future Diary have stuff like this. You're really making it seem more impressive than it is. I mean stuff like foreshadowing simply means "I have planned my story". I've seen pretty much any bad anime do foreshadowing. Even animes like Naruto/Boruto does it frequently.

Hell even Sword Art Online has the introduction of seemingly minor characters that only become relevant as major characters in arcs way down the line. Still wouldn't call that in SAO good.

Also, a lot of what you're mentioning isn't world building. You're talking about the development and revelation of specific characters. World building is about the world. The geography, economy, history and so on.

dabdabgoose said:
It relates to the world though, just as Roxy saying she was from the Migard village that Rudeus ends up seeing, I mean pretty much all of part 2 has been adding to the world building so I'm not really sure your point here, from the Demon continent, the adventure guilds, the port towns, the smuggling, the beast villages, Millis and the church to the central continent there is even a world map and accurate timelines of travel.

There is also different languages that where actually made by the author(how many stories even bother with that rather then just saying it's a different language while speaking japanese).

If there is one thing this show excells at is it's world building and Character developments that also intertwine with that world building.

Avicebrons said:

My point was that much of what you specifically said had nothing to do with world building. And that you're praising basic concepts such as foreshadowing which pretty much any show is capable of and indeed uses.

dabdabgoose said:
It did though because locations and character interactions increase the scope of the known world, that and this was your original point right that the world building is bad, yet look at the detail in only 20 episodes.

Even things such as Ghislaine talking about her party and they had a shadow of all the members, watching that now you can actually name them all when all you knew was 3 at that time. Could even add Roxys real age being in her 40s but Rudy thought she was a teen, then you got Roxys former party who both of the living members had an encounter with Rudeus and his crew.

Avicebrons said:




I meant it more as a general statement. The author, director, writer, whoever that is the lead in presenting the story whether it be in the LN, manga or anime, will have the responsibility to make sure that the story can be enjoyed chronologically. I simply said author cause that's the highest on the ladder. But of course if the anime director cut something then the author can't be blamed if it's bad as a result of the cutting. But then again, maybe said thing was bad even before the director cut it, in which case the author is to blame.

Point was simply that it's valid to criticize something based on what you've seen so far. As long as it's transparent.

Conceptualhero said:
I also do not think the author is the "highest on the ladder" since they usually have very little involve in the production of the anime itself. I am not going to contest your point since I don't care about the mess that is currently in the thread, but I do want to point out the difference between an anime director and the author of the series.

Avicebrons said:

I meant highest in the ladder in the sense that he is the one that actually wrote the story that everything is based on. He is quite literally at the top of the ladder in terms of the story.

Conceptualhero said:


Sure, that's true. However, like I have stated before, the author has no involvement in the production of the anime itself. I would be pretty mad if I was the author, and I was blamed for what scenes the director decided to cut.

Avicebrons said:

Yeah, like I said, if the anime chooses to cut something out and it's bad as a result of that then it's not the author's fault.

Avicebrons said:

Could you explain how something like
Relates to world building?

Avicebrons said:

Part of world building or not it's still really bad. Hence the world building being bad.

The rest of what you're saying is simply "this will be important later because I know what's going to happen". Okay? But this is a discussion for what we've been shown so far. I don't exactly see how you can dismiss people criticizing something if they've watched all content that is available in the selected medium. That's quite literally what episode discussions are for...

And I would still call it bad if it's not even introduced in a well written way. Introduction is almost as important as consequence. Future episodes might make you look at earlier episodes in a new light. But that also doesn't mean that you suddenly travel back in time and enjoy your first watching of those earlier episodes. It's up to the author to make something good without the audience needing the knowledge of future episodes.

Conceptualhero said:

World building is about the world. The geography, economy, history and so on.

dabdabgoose said:
Ghislaine talking about being in a Party and how not being able to read or calculate meant she couldn't survive on a world of commerce? The other party members who when you see them expand your view of new races(namely Elves and Dwarfs and whatever Demon race Geese is supposed to be).

Look I know your clearly focusing on this because you have no point on the world building(your actual argument).

dabdabgoose said:
not being able to read or calculate meant she couldn't survive on a world of commerce?

dabdabgoose said:
The other party members who when you see them expand your view of new races(namely Elves and Dwarfs and whatever Demon race Geese is supposed to be).

dabdabgoose said:
Look I know your clearly focusing on this because you have no point on the world building(your actual argument).

Sigmar-Unberogen said:
Certain someone here seems to have forgotten how to quote others. I'll return the favor.

Considering he imagines others to be trolls, it's no surprise he'd miss my explanation to why I, and that other dude I was talking with, consider worldbuilding in this show weak and this particular episode - abysmal.

Episode 9 was trash, with the exception of final few minutes. Aisha figuring out the truth was predictable, but still an ok moment.

The rest - horrendous.

The kingdom we're in was not explained at all! The princes, the king, the infiltration? Who needs any of that? Roxy figure is what actually matters! Worldbuilding my ass. Now that they revealed an actual Roxy figure on sale, this episode becomes nothing than an AD; a promotion for sale! This is "The Truman show" type of crap.

Since the comparison hit the nerve, I'll explain that I brought up Seirei Gensouki because even something that average spent more time exploring the demi-human village. Was Milis explained? The current kingdom?

This anime certainly prioritizes other bullshit over actual plot and worldbuilding sometimes. That was the case in episode 1 and now the same happened with episode 9. I don't need to be a hater to see something so obvious.

Once again, I couldn't care less if LN fills the gaps for you, or the knowledge of what's to come makes the judgment seem trollish/unfair.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:
Now that they revealed an actual Roxy figure on sale, this episode becomes nothing than an AD; a promotion for sale! This is "The Truman show" type of crap.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:

The kingdom we're in was not explained at all! The princes, the king, the infiltration? Who needs any of that? Roxy figure is what actually matters! Worldbuilding my ass. Now that they revealed an actual Roxy figure on sale, this episode becomes nothing than an AD; a promotion for sale! This is "The Truman show" type of crap.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:

Since the comparison hit the nerve, I'll explain that I brought up Seirei Gensouki because even something that average spent more time exploring the demi-human village. Was Milis explained? The current kingdom?

Sigmar-Unberogen said:

This anime certainly prioritizes other bullshit over actual plot and worldbuilding sometimes. That was the case in episode 1 and now the same happened with episode 9. I don't need to be a hater to see something so obvious.

Avicebrons said:
You are really walking the thinnest line I've ever seen someone make in regards to world building. What's next, you're gonna say them touching grass speaks volume of the ecological structure and nature's biology?

Well you see in Isekai Cheat Magician, Taichi was shown purchasing food. Which shows that one would not survive in this world of commerce if they don't posses the capability to make money.

Well whoop-de-do. You see Isekai Cheat Magician has great world building for expanding our view of new races like elves.

So in conclusion. Isekai Cheat Magician has 10/10 world building.

But really, these are the examples you bring up when trying to present Mushoku Tensei as having good world building? If anything, that should speak volume of MT's world building as a whole.

What are you on about? This has always been the focus. I merely picked a singular example that you made and asked you to expand on it. Which, to no ones surprise, didn't go particularly well.


And yes thank you. Someone who actually understands what world building is. This is why I initially said I agreed with your statement. If MT is supposed to have such great world building, why haven't they actually explored the regions they've visited.

But that apparently doesn't matter, because a character not being able to read or calculate means "they wouldn't survive in a world of commerce" and introducing new races is obviously peak world building. I bet you haven't seen any other isekai do that have you? Oh wait you have? Ah shit.

Also this. I was initially confused why in the world they spent so much time on a loli figurine in this episode (or well not really since it's MT after all). And then the same literal day, they announce that figurine being on sale. I mean to be fair, it's peak world building. Part of Mushoku Tensei's world is added into our own.

Sigmar-Unberogen said:
Certain someone here seems to have forgotten how to quote others. I'll return the favor.

Considering he imagines others to be trolls, it's no surprise he'd miss my explanation to why I, and that other dude I was talking with, consider worldbuilding in this show weak and this particular episode - abysmal.

Episode 9 was trash, with the exception of final few minutes. Aisha figuring out the truth was predictable, but still an ok moment.

The rest - horrendous.

The kingdom we're in was not explained at all! The princes, the king, the infiltration? Who needs any of that? Roxy figure is what actually matters! Worldbuilding my ass. Now that they revealed an actual Roxy figure on sale, this episode becomes nothing than an AD; a promotion for sale! This is "The Truman show" type of crap.

Since the comparison hit the nerve, I'll explain that I brought up Seirei Gensouki because even something that average spent more time exploring the demi-human village. Was Milis explained? The current kingdom?

This anime certainly prioritizes other bullshit over actual plot and worldbuilding sometimes. That was the case in episode 1 and now the same happened with episode 9. I don't need to be a hater to see something so obvious.

Once again, I couldn't care less if LN fills the gaps for you, or the knowledge of what's to come makes the judgment seem trollish/unfair.

dabdabgoose said:
You clearly ignored the points I made earlier when I even explained using the map just so you can argue semantics, a classic Red Herring.

If your not going to address it and just try and play games it's obvious I was correct in taking you for someone with a disingenuous argument aka a troll.

I'm not saying there are not criticisms to be had of this show but yours are literally on the strongest points of the show, given you have watched nearly a 1000 animes on your list I would assume you can work out what point your trying to come across.

That's actually a perfect way of Advertisement? considering the source material do the same. They went so far as to showcase the figure which I find surprisingly good.

Also, the princes and the king didn't quite important to the plot therefore why would they include it?

It will be explained in OVA which I suppose not only includes Eris Goblin Quest but other stuff which is quite important for the future plots.

This anime certainly prioritizes other bullshit over actual plot and worldbuilding sometimes.
Nope, they had explained enough world-building back in the previous episode?

I am quite new in the MAL and it takes time for me to figure out how to quote.