| The only time I can specifically remember is this scene from Lucky Star: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T0eW4f98PQ&t=9 I remember at least one or two passing references to the term in some other series I've seen but it didn't get this kind of emphasis so I can't even remember which show much less the episode... What I was thinking though was trying to compile a list of these scenes (ep/minutes/seconds) so they can be put in order to get a picture of how the Japanese use the term and how that usage might have changed over time. Of course that probably requires assessing manga too. Lucky Star's anime was in 2007 but maybe the 2003 manga had a similar conversation at some point? In which case such a list would need volumes/chapters/pages too. There seems to be a shit by the time of Konata because you see Konata emphasizing her own appearance distinct from classmates, but it's not clear if she means "because I look younger than HS age" or just "I look younger than my classmates". The 1984 "Lolita Anime" by Wonder Kids' first episode featured Youko who was a very buxom High School Senior, so what kind of gradual process might we observe over the intervening twenty years that might have shifted the use of this slang to refer to progressively younger girls and exclude elder girls it once included? This is a project for chronological historians requiring massive digging, but the starting point is basically somehow mining usage of the term. I don't know if there's a searchable database of transcripts (either raw or subtitles) that could help, or if we could just go purely on memory somehow. A big problem in doing such a search IMO is in association with many shows you'd have FANS retroactively calling characters loli / lolicon which could pollute search results when all you want is the DIALOGUE (or in the case of manga : also including author's narration) to provide points in the timeline. EDIT: okay one other scene I came across was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4HjASLvD6Q from 2014 anime https://myanimelist.net/anime/25159/Inou-Battle_wa_Nichijou-kei_no_Naka_de presumably a conversation derived from the 2012 light novels, but this is post-lucky star. Probably the clearest kind of description I can recall hearing since the character specifies a "strike zone" of 7-12 years. I don't really know if we can say that's consistently been reflected in earlier series though... might just be a modern reinterpretation in the 2000s of 80s/90s slang which also applied to older girls'? |
YJBAug 2, 2021 9:06 PM
| in gintama, matako calls her colleague a lolicon but he is a feminist, you see term in almost all anime |
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| There's one (at least so far) in Urusei Yatsura in episode 16 when the teacher appears and iirc it used there for |
| I feel like Monogatari series has at least one or two moments. Not too sure though. |
"Nobody could laugh at someone who's trying their hardest" -Machio- |
Catalano said: in gintama, matako calls her colleague a lolicon but he is a feminist, you see term in almost all anime Do you recall which episode this was in? Trying to get specific info to actually cut the clips and arrange chronologically for easy comparison. "almost all" sounds like an exaggeration, pretty sure it was never used in Golgo 13 for example. I'd be surprised if it was more than 1%. If it seems like more that might just be due to it being a common theme of those which are more popular to some people. PiyushSan said: I remember Tomoko from WataMote using the term lolicon. I don't remember the exact episode but she was talking about how not even lolicons (the word was was changed to "pedophile" during translation) fall for her despite having a child like body. The term lolicon is used quite often in anime. Titles to look at are at least a good start, I suppose episode/minute numbers could be narrowed down later. It could be a "hey you guys who haven't watched X yet, please listen for it and tell us" to avoid those of us who've already seen it rewatching for this sole purpose. Makes me also wonder if we have searchable subtitle databases anywhere. Like you know how sometiems instead of embedding subtitles into an MPV or MP4 that some groups will just release an add-on file for a raw, and that tends to include the text and the times to display it? If we could somehow make those collective documents searchable (can't be much size, being just text, no audio or video) then that could help in narrowing down this term, or as you point out, common substitutions for it viewed by some as synonyms when doing a dub/sub. 2077 said: if you want an archive of japanese subtitles or something then here's one you could maybe use to analyze or whatever. Looks like a useful took, I'm just not sure if there's a way to collectively search a string in all those SRT files. When I search on file explorer I think it only searches in the titles but not the contents. Yuu_Kanzaki said: I feel like Monogatari series has at least one or two moments. Not too sure though. Yeah probably, though with the propensity of subbers to swap our words (might not leave lolicon as-is, like the common swapping out of "Nakama" for "Friend" .. never mind subtle differences in meaning) unless we're actively listening instead of letting it blur as we read the subs, it can be easy to overlook. I'm so used to seeing "itadakimasu" and never zeroing in on a specific meaning that I really only noticed a subber playing around with it when in Higurashi Gou two characters said that in direct sequence and it was subbed as 2 different phrases (neither which had direct relation to it's meaning in Japanese) mhkr said: There's one (at least so far) in Urusei Yatsura in episode 16 when the teacher appears and iirc it used there for This is the most specific so far, and a good place to start since chronologically it is also the earliest, PLUS it's a show I've wanted to see but hadn't got around to seeing (having enjoyed Ranma/IY) so I can just make a note to listen for it and crop that clip. In looking into this, this is the first segment of the 16th episode (ie 16a) and worth noting eps 16a/16b are also called 31/32 in some distributions which number the first episodes' dual segments consecutively Lum is 17 like Konata but obviously a lot more developed, so she could be the "slang archtype" of the early 80s to which we could compare later changes in meaning throughout the 90s/00s in the use of loli/lolicon possibly in the direction of younger girls. One thing ironic about the "lolita anime" series (came out in 84, which i thought until now was the first use of Loli(ta) in Japanese anime) is you actually had a guy in it reject a toddler girl at a whorehouse as "too young", but two decades later you have guys arguing "high school girls are too old to be loli" which is seeming ridiculous. Especially since I've only ever seen this expressed in the west, which almost seems like a kind of cultural appropriation with westerner toddlercons trying to redefine japanese slang like loli not just to include preschoolers but to emphasize them, despite historically this not being it's application when it was popularized in the 1980s. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and that did originate in Japan... it's really hard to know without being a native speaker and being able to listen to anime and read manga in it's original phrasing. When it's all the the realm of subbers (and even moreso with scanlators) the changes in language over time don't leap out at you, so it would be a small segment of english-speaking westerners able to offer thorough input on this. |
YJBSep 12, 2021 4:01 PM
| I've been told Lum might've been 15 years old and that age 17 is by the series conclusion? |
| I'll start with a direct answer to your original question: the earliest notable anime usage of the term that I know of is from https://myanimelist.net/anime/1430/ The girl who the term is being used with regard to, Clarisse, is an interesting case because she's one of the spark points for the bishoujo craze, along with characters from Urusei Yatsura and the like previously mentioned ITT. However, the term is used here in something closer to its original meaning rather than the meaning it took on within fandom. But more on that later. I've heard of 'lolicon' being used in manga as early as 5-6 years before, and a fanbase centered around the term had already come to exist by the end of the 70s (also more on that later). I think this mid-70s origin of the term coincides roughly with when the actual book Lolita was officially translated in Japanese, but I'm not sure of that. That said, you should get some additional context as well. Start by familiarizing yourself with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-eigo Now, why is this relevant? Because 'lolicon' as a derivative of 'Lolita complex' has been a seperate idea from the original book, and undergone several changes in that time. Before the term was adopted by fans in the late 70s, it probably would be safe to say its use was simply 'heterosexual attraction to barely-pubescent girls'. When Azuma Hideo (look him up if you care to know why I would cite him as an authority here) and others in related circles began to use the term to refer to themselves, it started evolving into also being a character-focused term similar to how 'moe' did much later, but was still something fairly specific and not the only one around. Refer to this note from the magazine Cybele, published by various artists including Hideo around the end of the 70s/early 80s:  Translation: Classification * Hei-Con (Heidi-Complex) 5-10 * Ari-Con (Alice-Complex) 7-12 * Loli-Con (Lolita-Complex) 10-15 So, not only did the term already branch off from its original intent into instead a character fandom term, there are also other classifications which didn't take off and aren't often seen since ages ago. What that meant over time is that 'lolicon' became the term used in place of all of these, until eventually it simply had no lower bound. I think because the term got vague and overly broad over time, characters that most embodied childlike traits ended up being touted as representative of the term 'loli'. There's probably no specific point that it happened, but comic LO began publishing in 2002 and although it casts a fairly large net in terms of character types, it focuses younger and that's where the core definition among fans ended up. Japan even now has several sub-terms, but since 'lolicon' is the only one that's known enough to be used as slang outside fandom discussions it's the only one you'll generally see in anime, and the only one that's made the language jump back to English. |
smugloli said: I'll start with a direct answer to your original question: the earliest notable anime usage of the term that I know of is from https://myanimelist.net/anime/1430/ The girl who the term is being used with regard to, Clarisse, is an interesting case because she's one of the spark points for the bishoujo craze, along with characters from Urusei Yatsura and the like previously mentioned ITT. However, the term is used here in something closer to its original meaning rather than the meaning it took on within fandom. Now regretting not following up on past-plans to watch the Lupin animes, had found (much like Jojo) it a bit overwhelming due to being spread across movies/OVAs. Do you recall how many minutes into the film the term gets used? I plan to watch it in entirety eventually but maybe if I skip to just that part first to transcribe whatever the subtitler did... I'm unclear on specifically how old she is at various moments, do you know where estimates like "16" or "18" come from? I don't know if the anime mentions any numbers or if people are just guessing on how she is drawn. The only references I can find numerically aren't to her age but to time lapses in the story: she meets Lupin, 3 years pass and parents die, seven more years pass and Lupin revisits castle a total of ten years after earlier meet. smugloli said: But more on that later. I've heard of 'lolicon' being used in manga as early as 5-6 years before, That movie came out in December 1979 so you're estimating between 1973 and 1974 then? smugloli said: and a fanbase centered around the term had already come to exist by the end of the 70s (also more on that later). I thought about the possibility into digging into Usenet or the equivalent that Japanese fans might have used to communicate in the late 80s or early 90s (about the only forum which seems to have archives that exist today) but I'm thinking maybe old magazines might have had references from the 70s or 80s too... The issue is, assuming these magazines survive, do we actually have searchable OCRd scans of them to machine-search for instances of ロリコン inside? Without that, we'd be limited to appealing to people who have read them (in case they remember) or actually reading them ourselves. I can't do that unless I learn some Japanese =/ With so many actual manga still untranslated from those times, it's even less likely that "letters to the author" or equivalent fan-commentary would have gotten translations from whatver pertinent magazine histories existed at the time. God... is this the torture that people who work as Historians deal with? smugloli said: I think this mid-70s origin of the term coincides roughly with when the actual book Lolita was officially translated in Japanese, but I'm not sure of that. Not just finding the 1st Japanese translation of Nabokov's 1955 "Lolita" would be useful, but also that of Trainer's 1966 "Lolita Complex", since the latter could have had some influence in the complete term's popularization too. smugloli said: That said, you should get some additional context as well. Start by familiarizing yourself with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-eigo Now, why is this relevant? Because 'lolicon' as a derivative of 'Lolita complex' has been a seperate idea from the original book, and undergone several changes in that time. I would assume originally it was closer and then over time changed, not just locally, but maybe also through international adaptation by English-speakers, like how "anime" gets used to mean "Japanese animation" instead of "animation" abroad? smugloli said: Before the term was adopted by fans in the late 70s, it probably would be safe to say its use was simply 'heterosexual attraction to barely-pubescent girls'. Do you mean in Japan? I don't want to assume anything about it's usage unless I can find some written references to it. Going purely from the source material, I think Dolores Haze aged from 12-19 in the book and Humbert never stopped referring to her as Lolita, so rather than referring to only her age when he first coins the nickname (the beginning of puberty, "barely" as you say,) perhaps it could have been used to refer to girls throughout the entirety of puberty? smugloli said: When Azuma Hideo (look him up if you care to know why I would cite him as an authority here) and others in related circles began to use the term to refer to themselves, it started evolving into also being a character-focused term similar to how 'moe' did much later, but was still something fairly specific and not the only one around. What would be ideal is if I could compile a list of these exact quotes and arrange them chronologically. Perfection would be getting the raw kanji/hiragana, then some romaji adaptations of those, and then people's attempts to do English translatiosn on Hideo an others' commentary. smugloli said: Refer to this note from the magazine Cybele, published by various artists including Hideo around the end of the 70s/early 80s: Translation: Classification * Hei-Con (Heidi-Complex) 5-10 * Ari-Con (Alice-Complex) 7-12 * Loli-Con (Lolita-Complex) 10-15 Great find! I don't suppose you recall which issue/page? Not sure what years this magazine was out. I notice what you wrote as a dash (-) between the numbers is actually a tilde (~) which is used to indicate approximation, which I think shows they acknowledged there was some flexibility there. Especially since there are two ranges of overlap (7-10 is both Heidi/Alice, 10-12 is both Alice/Lolita) What is also interesting is how (as you adapt with a dash) the dot preceding I don't suppose you'd know how to type out the parenthesized longer Katakana the first ones? ★ ハイ . コン ( ) 5~10 ★ アリ . コン ( ) 7~12 ★ ロリ . コン ( ) 10~15 I would assume the 1st is derived from Heidi of the Alps whose anime adaptation came out in 1974 so probably mid/late 70s is when this got published? Given that Heidi is 5 when the story begins I understand that starting point, but apparently only 3 years goes by and she is 8 by the end, so any idea why they would extend that up to 10? Alice I'm figuring is Liddell/Wonderland inspired, and 7 as a starting point makes sense since that's how old Alice is during the story. No years go by so I don't know why they would extend it up to 12 except the influence of pentaphilia, as the min/max has a difference of five, spanning six possible ages each (ie 5/6/7/8/9/10 etc) 10-15 for Loli is similarly confusing since Dolores was 12-17... even if we were referring to when Dolores lost her virginity (at summer camp a year prior to an older boy, not to Humbert) that only brings us down to 11, not 10. smugloli said: So, not only did the term already branch off from its original intent into instead a character fandom term, there are also other classifications which didn't take off and aren't often seen since ages ago. With the gradual broadening of loli/lolicon to include girls 5-9 (which as you pointed out, Cebele excludes) would leave a gaping void in need of slang if Lolicon were transitioned back to it's narrower meaning, so Heidi-con/Ali-con could be useful in filling that foid. I'd be tempted to restructure it though to avoid the confusing overlap but am not sure what adjustments would be ideal since you want it to be based on the 5/7/11 in literature but be of similar span sizes. The primarily problem being that the Heidi>Alice gap is smaller (2yrs) compared to the Alice>Dolores gap (4yrs). I don't suppose there's a popular 9 year old in western literature also popular in Japan who could balance that out? smugloli said: What that meant over time is that 'lolicon' became the term used in place of all of these, until eventually it simply had no lower bound. Yeah... I can imagine ways how this happens but it still seems off, like a reduction into absurdity, since Humbert+Dolores is nowhere near toddlercon and similar. The 1974 scene in "Lolita Anime III: House of Kittens" where the protagonist turns down a kindergartener offered to him as "too young" before accepting Miu springs to mind as opposition to such broadening, and why resurrecting a term like Heidicon to denote that distinction would be useful. smugloli said: I think because the term got vague and overly broad over time, characters that most embodied childlike traits ended up being touted as representative of the term 'loli'. There's probably no specific point that it happened, Oh definitely not, that would be rare to find for any slang, the best we can hope for is assembling a timeline and then debating on the importance of various milestones and how they might have influenced later ones. smugloli said: but comic LO began publishing in 2002 and although it casts a fairly large net in terms of character types, it focuses younger and that's where the core definition among fans ended up. True... though it would be interesting to compare how the characters average ages might possibly have changed between issue 1 in October 2002 vs the latest (November 2021 ... not sure which number... Akaneshinsa's site doesn't seem to assign overall numbernig). If we assume they publish 12 per year (perhaps some gaps?) then 12x19 is ~228 batches of chapters in which to monitor fluctuations. smugloli said: Japan even now has several sub-terms, but since 'lolicon' is the only one that's known enough to be used as slang outside fandom discussions it's the only one you'll generally see in anime, and the only one that's made the language jump back to English. Sub-terms different from the Heidi/Alice you cited? Would definitely be worth noting, since even if they haven't made a popular jump here, their existence (and localized popularity) in Japan could be illustrative of how lolicon is used there. If we were ever to adopt a truer-to-Japanese usage of lolicon then we would likely create voids in conversation that would benefit from adopting Heidi, Alice or other sub-terms. |
Managed to find more on this because of the well-referenced wiki as there's mention from it on their articles: page 5 of chapter 91. Thank you for your help! PiyushSan said: I remember Tomoko from WataMote using the term lolicon. I don't remember the exact episode but she was talking about how not even lolicons (the word was was changed to "pedophile" during translation) fall for her despite having a child like body. At least it's not a long anime, so we know it happened in 2013, and I know this is one I planned to watch eventually so maybe I can narrow it down later, unless someone else knows? Yuu_Kanzaki said: I feel like Monogatari series has at least one or two moments. Not too sure though. https://bakemonogatari.fandom.com/wiki/Koyomi_Araragi#Personality seems to support your recollection: "Other characters, Mayoi Hachikuji and Hitagi Senjougahara especially, seem to speculate that Koyomi is a lolicon." I've watched 2-3 seasons of that (my memory on where I left off is a bit blurry) and it does seem vaguely familiar to me as well. Would definitely love to narrow down where Mayoi/Hitagi made such comments though, as I'd like to get as specific as possible (date, rough translation, context) of when they make such comments. eli_shmeli said: They just used it in Shield Hero, around the start of episode 3 This is mentioned as being based on volume 1 of the light novel and "chapters 17-21" though I'm not sure if that refers to manga chapters or "chapters in the light novel". So to get a true "first date" I'll need to dig deeper to find if this comment was anime-original or present in the preceding source material. I checked and it happens at 2m55s after the OP regarding Raphtalia and how a bunch of lolicon villagers are offering her free food and stuff... I'm not sure if we are ever told the age of Raphtalia before/after her maturation though so this is at best a visual indicator. Also given the flashbacks that are shown to guys offering Raphtalia free stuff... she looks closer to the teenage Raphtalia as opposed to the pre-teen Raphtalia he started out with, so given this context it's like the younger Raphtalia was non-loli but the "grown" Raphtalia is a loli now. So basically Naofumi is lamenting that he doesn't like thew new attention Loli-Raphtalia is getting, whereas she was too young (not sexually mature enough) when they started out to get these annoying attentions. |
YJBSep 21, 2021 5:25 PM
| NEW FIND Not specifically "lolicon" but I did discover another adjacent reference: KonoSuba s2e2 at 15m9s when Kazuma freezes the door so Aqua doesn't see him bathing with Megumin, he mentions he doesn't want to be called "Loli-NEET" and some other term I couldn't here (HorribleSubs translated it as "Lolimaniac" Megumin is 13 though flatchested compared to her same-age rival, while Kazuma is 3 years older at 16. EDIT: cancel that, the term does get used (twice) at 15m40s where Kazuma says he almost got branded a lolicon, and Megumin gets mad and asks him to explain why bathing with her would make him seem like that. smugloli said: the one I'd suggest is Patrick W. Galbraith as he's written specifically about lolicon before. There are citations in those works that would steer you towards Japanese cultural critics who have talked about this as well. Sounds like a good frame of reference, so I'm looking for a specific book, or some paper? smugloli said: The line in question is around 1:19:30 or thereabouts. As an aside, if you are going to watch Lupin, Cagliostro is one of the most commonly reccommended entry points and often considered the series' peak or at least near it. Unlike most the series has almost no continuity or enforced order so the real answer is "it doesn't matter where you start". Cool, starting there now. Man... 10gb for 1080p ... SSD is cool and fast but not much for capacity... smugloli said: I tried to remember where I had heard about this, and it was apparently in a manga published by Shinji Wada in the shoujo magazine Margaret around 1974. However, I've no idea how to actually find out exactly where. As he's fairly influential, a lot of his stuff probably isn't lost media unlike a lot of really old manga but I wouldn't know where to begin looking. I suppose one might brute-force it by collecting everything he published in the decade and just combing it all, I'm sure it'd be entertaining if one could understand it, but "not lost" still could mean it's untranslated. smugloli said: That particular snippet is from volume 2, published in 1979. All but the first volume (2-7) are scanned and available on any of the places you'd usually find this sort of thing such as the panda or sites that scrape it like nhentai. It actually could be a useful reference for this exercise, because in addition to things like that classification, there's information recorded on doujin circles and artists active in that genre at the time. Yeah, I haven't really bothered to collect/organize H-manga lately but would make an exception for something like that. You only mention scan though, not translated? smugloli said: However, the vast majority of doujinshi that old is basically lost media, so I'm not sure how far one would get looking into it further. I guess if they couldn't even save Doctor Who we can't complain, but it does seem tragic to see it lost to time. Guess it's to be expected from a time when you couldn't easily do digital backups. smugloli said: Sure: Heiji Konpurekkusu ヘイジ コンプレックス Arisu Konpurekkusu アリス コンプレックス Rori-ta Konpurekkusu ロリータ コンプレックス Thanks smugloli said: That's the term's origin, yes. The Heidi anime adaptation was pretty popular at the time. I remember planning to watch it (plus other stuff like Little Women and Trapp Family Story) because I'd enjoyed other WMT stuff like Akage no Anne and Daddy Long Legs but kind of fell behind... haven't even watched Before Green Gables or Shoujo Cossette s yet, it's pathetic. smugloli said: There are theme/subgenre tags such as Lolibabaa (ロリババア), referring to characters with loli appearance but much higher in age (like, say, Oshino Shinobu). Lolibabaa in fact has its own themed magazine, Towako (also Akaneshinsa I believe). I might be able to remember that one, 'obaba' meaning old lady is one of those things I actually recall when most Japanese flies out of my mind. I know there's that teacher in ranma, then biscuit in hunter x hunter, in terms of "transforms" ones like Shinobu (even though we don't see that until later... which I haven't, fell behind in Monogatari too) and I guess Washu and Mina Tepes transform too. Not sure if it would apply to "I'm old but I never assumed an adult form" lolis like Etna/Flonne or Sunako Kirishiki though. smugloli said: But as far as classifications go, it'd be terms like youjo (幼女) for characters considerably younger. These are somewhat vague, so I don't consider them very useful. However, there's a more concrete metric that can be used: school year. Even outside of the more deviant side of the anime/manga fanbase, it's not rare to see the terms 'JS' 'JC' 'JK' 'JD' (for joshi shougakusei/chuugakusei/koukousei/daigakusei elementary/middle/high/university-schooler, respectively, as well as the male equivalents with danshi instead of joshi) used to refer to either characters or real people. You may have even seen the terms used in anime at some point. I recall stuff like "first years" or "the second years" and so on. Though I wonder how that lines up with chars who skip grades or get held back. smugloli said: But as far as lolicon goes, in cases like LO, characters are commonly referred to by their specific year (like JS6 or sometimes 小６, a girl who would be either 11 or 12). I'm getting flashbacks to Cannon Sensei Tobashisugi where she invents the "teleevision from another dimension" ... *checks page 67* yeah in addition to age 12 she emphasizes being in 6th year. So I guess it's a cultural thing. I don't think you tend to see "oh, I'm only a 17 year old high school student in the 12th grade!" in western banter. |
YJBSep 27, 2021 11:17 PM
| Probably best is anime de wakaru shinryounaika because it's an educational anime about psychology and they did all of episode two (the episodes are just a few minutes long) about the topic. |
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| A followup regarding s2e2 of the Konosuba anime (broadcast in Jan 2017) In volume 5 of the manga (March 2017) the bath scene between Megumin and Satou was adapted in chapter 25. Much of it is the same (he'll be called a lolicon for bathing with the flatchested thirteen year old) but there's dialogue preceding that which is absent in the anime. I checked the corresponding place in the light novel (volume 3 chapter 2) and it appears the manga adapted it, but it was cut from the anime: “Middle two and high one?… I am not sure what you mean, but I will be fourteen next month. You won’t treat me like a kid after that?” Megumin who was relaxing in the bath said with her eyes closed… “… Huh, are you serious? Your birthday is next month? Eh, fourteen? you’re graduating from being a loli character?” “Who is a loli character! I don’t recall making such a character! And… what’s with you? Why are you acting strange all of a sudden…” Someone I thought of as an incapable young sister was gradually morphing in my mind into an incapable school junior… “We, well, I suddenly think this situation is a bit embarrassing.” “Hey, don’t say that all of a sudden, that will make me feel embarrassed too! What’s wrong with you? Is just one year older that much of a difference? And can you stop stealing glances at me so shyly!?” followed of course by the bit which was left in the anime: If Aqua was to see us like this, she will definitely not let me off, and give me nicknames like LoliNEET, Lolima and spread it all over town! “Kazuma–! Megumin–? I am home–! Will someone welcome me back?! I sold the toad and brought the money back–!” Aqua’s voice was getting closer. I got out of the bathtub hastily and charge towards the changing room. As I ran, the thumping footsteps draws near… “Kazuma–!… What, so you are bathing?” Aqua seemed to notice I am in here. The moment before the door to the changing room was about to open, I used all the mana within me and stretched my right hand out, concentrating like never before! “Freeze–!” Using all my mana, the ‘Freeze’ I bet everything on froze the door handle of the changing room door in an instant. Fatigue and weakness assaulted me after I exhausted all my mana, and I collapse onto the floor. “Kazuma– I left both of your share of the money on the table in the living room! Let’s grab a bite after you finish your bath!” After that, Aqua left without opening the door. … That make sense. If she knew someone was inside, why would she open the door and look at my naked body, this is not a manga. “Are… are you okay, Kazuma? Did you deplete your mana? I should say that was a close one. If things escalates…” “I would be labeled a lolicon. Too close… ah, Megumin, sorry to trouble you, but can you help me wipe my body? I am completely out of mana and can’t move. I will catch a cold if I lie down here.” I lay face down on the floor, asking for her help without seeing Megumin’s face, but… “… Hey, why will you be labeled a lolicon if you bath with me, explain clearly. You have guts to say such things when you can’t move.” The part omitted in the anime seems critical, since he seems to be drawing the loli line between 13 and 14 for whatever reason, possibly because he considers lolis to be middle-schoolers but not high-schoolers? Which of course doesn't align with the Lum/Clarisse usage since both of those are HS girls not middle school girls, it seems safe to say. I'm still not 100% clear on how to interpret the use in Shield Hero. I finally got around to checking this, [REVO] translated it as "pedophiliac" =/ but you're right "lolicon" is audibly what Lupin is calling the Count for trying to marry Clarisse, however old she ends up being (??+10=??) traed said: Probably best is anime de wakaru shinryounaika because it's an educational anime about psychology and they did all of episode two (the episodes are just a few minutes long) about the topic. Thanks, that should be an interesting watch and a good place to mine quotes, though it's also a perspective from 2015 which I'd also need to take into consideration when comparing to it's forefathers. smugloli said: Yeah. Most 'eternal loli' characters don't have an adult form and I've never seen 'lolibabaa' restricted that way in any context. I used Shinobu as an example since she's among the most-known such characters, not because she has older forms. It does seem strange there wouldn't be slang differentiation between "ancient loli locked in loli form" vs "ancient loli who can switch from loli form to busty form at will" as they're remarkably different tropes. |
| The term lolicon nowadays refers to attraction to petite bodies that look like anime girls 4-12 regardless of the age stated (ie 1000 year old excuse). I never really thought its usage changed (for the english speaking crowd anyway), but if it did; it could be due to the rise of the ancient lolis in modern anime passed the year 2010. For Japan lolicon means pedo I think, but some otaku there accept the title for their fictional loli kink too. |
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| I'm actually thinking you shouldn't use anime as your sole source because anime characters tend to not always talk like real people do. Also there are subtleties you may miss going by references and potentially flawed translations. I wouldn't go by some random post online with no explanation of support for their descriptions but this should give you a list of some words for reference on what to look for when spoken. Unfortunately romaji wasnt provided. https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/75168/lexicon-for-the-word-pedophile I'm also seeing some people claim lolicon isn't inherently sexual in meaning just an obsession with little girls. |
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| In Detective is Already Dead, Siesta calls Kimizuka a lolicon. I think it is in episode 8 |
| Kirino calls her brother a lolicon in Oreimo. Among other things |
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| It occurs to me a similar study of etymology (ie finding dated written or spoken references) would also be useful for the phrase shotacon. The phrase "Shotaro Complex" is said to be derived from Shotaro Kaneda from the 1956 manga Tetsujin 28-go but this doesn't answer the question of WHEN someone coined the phrase and when we began to see it's usage spread. The closest I've gotten is hearing the slang picked up in the 80s so it may have debuted a decade after the rise of the "lolicon" slang in the 70s. The ideal thing is to find actual titles and page numbers (or episode numbers) to make a timeline for this too. Especially interested in the first time we hear the term used in an anime. As seen earlier in this thread, the earliest dates pinpointed so far for lolicon (both provided by Smugloli) are both in 1979, which is Lupin's usage in anime and the Cybele usage in manga/magazine. There are probably pre-1979 ones for loli which we jus don't know about (a more obscure anime or magazine perhaps? or a book/newspaper) so we can keep looking but I'm pretty satisfied with labeling Cybele/Lupin as the "effective firsts" and searching for equivalent markers for the 'shotacon' slang too. rohan121 said: The term lolicon nowadays refers to attraction to petite bodies that look like anime girls 4-12 regardless of the age stated (ie 1000 year old excuse). Nowadays in Japan, or nowadays among Westerners who consume anime and might misinterpret or redefine the culture? Dolores remained Lolita up until she died at 17 in childbirth so if people are insisting it's only pre-pubescent girls that's definitely a change. rohan121 said: but if it did; it could be due to the rise of the ancient lolis in modern anime passed the year 2010. I don't want to speculate. You'd hope we'd derive this from how the Japanese use the term but I expect a lot of appropriation of slang and evolving usage in 'chan culture' might have derailed our usage in respect to Japanese usage. rohan121 said: For Japan lolicon means pedo I think, but some otaku there accept the title for their fictional loli kink too. Why should we speculate if we're not fluent and willing to do indepth breakdowns? I can't do a direct observation of evolving usage on 2ch or Japanese Usenet or magazines so we should at least say what Japanese reporters fluent in their own discourse say. traed said: I'm actually thinking you shouldn't use anime as your sole source because anime characters tend to not always talk like real people do. I'm definitely for branching beyond this where possible, but anime just seems like the easiest starting point to establish a timeline of usage (not to mention generate interest) and then if people have different trends they want to exhibit in other media (Japanese newspapers, literature, live-action dramas, etc) we can then supplement them to build the timeline even further. I just think that step would be MUCH harder due to our lack of familiarity. I think the best strategy to find out that information is first to get at the easiest stuff (the audible anime) and build something impressive enough to attract the native Japanese speakers familiar with such history to come on over and offer their contributions. traed said: Also there are subtleties you may miss going by references and potentially flawed translations. Definitely - the subtitles for Castle Cagliostre in the version I managed to access mistranslated "lolicon count" as "paedophiliac count" for example. Here you have a false conflation done by a subtitler unfamiliar in nuance. Even with people who keep the slang intact, there could be contexts like "is the character being sarcastic" to take into account too. These are all discussions I look forward too, but I think the important first steps are presenting a timeline, even if it's one with flaws in it's interpretation that we expect to build on. traed said: I wouldn't go by some random post online with no explanation of support for their descriptions but this should give you a list of some words for reference on what to look for when spoken. Unfortunately romaji wasnt provided. https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/75168/lexicon-for-the-word-pedophile Romaji would help, we don't need it that much when it's hiragana or katakana but moreso when it's terms using kanji traed said: I'm also seeing some people claim lolicon isn't inherently sexual in meaning just an obsession with little girls. I think we should put less emphasis on coming up with sweeping definitions until we have more material for study, the first step is just to document the actual sounds being spoken (or written, in manga) and we can then discuss the context of each incident and differing interpretations of them. Mantron said: In Detective is Already Dead, Siesta calls Kimizuka a lolicon. I think it is in episode 8 a new 2021 series, I'll add it to my 'watch' list and hopefully notice when it happens and add it to the timeline, thanks. Do you know the context, like is this in reference to Kimizuka being attracted to Siesta, or maybe some other char? Siesta from the looks of screenshots has breast growth. Even though I want to emphasize locating it in older works of previous decades , these are still notable StarfireDragon said: Kirino calls her brother a lolicon in Oreimo. Among other things that does sound familiar which reminds me how I stalled and didn't complete that. I don't suppose you recall which episode? I'm basically wanting to pinpoint each episode to the minute/second for a timeline so that people can easily verify claims in the timeline and also watch for context to easily discuss the context and intonation. |
| Did you just repost your last reply? Lol |
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| @tycio it was the episode where she brought home her rival from America. Look up episodes with Ria Hagry |
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| In Japan they tend to not associate the word lolicon with pedo like in the west. They sometimes use it just to refer to young girls or even young looking women sometimes. Their culture values youthful looks a lot. You are free to think whatever of that info. |
| Lost my old account in the hacking accountpocalypse |
| Okay compiling all of the above info here is the timeline I have so far... - - - 1978 Lupin Cagliostro film, from ??:?? - ??:?? 1982 Urusei Yatsura episode ?? from ??:?? - ??:?? 1984 Lupin III part III s1 e2 00:52:44,067 --> 00:52:46,970 and e11 00:52:40,071 --> 00:52:42,974 01:03:23,247 --> 01:03:26,484 and s3 00:09:21,403 --> 00:09:24,640 1996 Hell teacher Nube E39 00:05:54,681 --> 00:05:57,667 2004 Crayon Shin-chan The Kasukabe Boys of the Evening Sun 00:52:57,155 --> 00:52:59,124 2006 GinTama episode ?? from ??:?? to ??:?? 2007 Detective Conan E476 00:11:53,666 --> 00:11:57,670 2011 Bokutachi ha tomodachi ga sukunai E4 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:26,168 2013 Tokurei Sochi Dantai Stella Jogakuin Koutou-ka C3-bu e13 00:08:10,451 --> 00:08:13,872 WataMote episode ?? from ??:?? to ??:?? 2014 Saikin, Imouto no Yousu ga Chotto Okashiinda ga. E13 0:05:58.38,0:06:00.00 Mahou sensou/ Magical Warfare e3 00:02:29,792 --> 00:02:32,795 2015 Anime de Wakaru Shinryounaika (episode 2) 2016 Kono bijutsu bu ni ha mondai ga aru 00:23:54,724 --> 00:23:58,144 2017 Maid Dragon S1 E12 00:13:43,197 --> 00:13:45,366 2019 (Shield Hero) Tate no yuusha S1 E3 00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:01,180 And E6 00:00:15,265 --> 00:00:19,144 2021 Beastars s2 e14 00:06:29,388 --> 00:06:34,852 - - - Can always add more over time if people produce more suggestions later. I think organizing by air date is the most valuable so you can see if changes happen how they might have evolved in the culture over time. PhantasistaG said: You want to find the ロリコン sentences in subs Beastars s2 e14 00:06:29,388 --> 00:06:34,852 Maid Dragon S1 E12 00:13:43,197 --> 00:13:45,366 Tate no yuusha S1 E3 00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:01,180 And E6 00:00:15,265 --> 00:00:19,144 Saikin, Imouto no Yousu ga Chotto Okashiinda ga. E13 0:05:58.38,0:06:00.00 Bokutachi ha tomodachi ga sukunai E4 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:26,168 Crayon Shin-chan The Kasukabe Boys of the Evening Sun 00:52:57,155 --> 00:52:59,124 Detective Conan E476 00:11:53,666 --> 00:11:57,670 Hell teacher Nube E39 00:05:54,681 --> 00:05:57,667 Kono bijutsu bu ni ha mondai ga aru 00:23:54,724 --> 00:23:58,144 Lupin III part III s1 e2 00:52:44,067 --> 00:52:46,970 and e11 00:52:40,071 --> 00:52:42,974 01:03:23,247 --> 01:03:26,484 and s3 00:09:21,403 --> 00:09:24,640 Mahou sensou/ Magical Warfare e3 00:02:29,792 --> 00:02:32,795 Tokurei Sochi Dantai Stella Jogakuin Koutou-ka C3-bu e13 00:08:10,451 --> 00:08:13,872 Good luck to you. @tycio This all looks very promising though I'm not sure what resources you used to locate ロリコン is it common for Japanese DVDs to include closed captions for the deaf and for these CC to be compiled in searchable databases? Another concern I have is my being overly reliant on English fansubs because of how they might deviate from the phrases used. To use Urusei Yatsura as an example, here is an example of a group subtiling the infamous monk narration, for example: https://youtu.be/fhnlz5qZtNE On having a fresh listen and paying close attention, two things jumped out at me: "bishoujo" is spoken, and subtitles translate this as "beautiful, young girls" (seems accurate) "middle-aged" (an english phrase) is for some reason translated as "grown-up men" though ,which seems pretty strange. One common attribute we see in the substitute teacher pining for Lum and the kidnapper-count pining for Clarisse in the Lupin 3rd film, is that both appear to be middle-aged men, not merely "grown-up men" which is an odd-sounding expression. I don't know why the subbers didn't leave the phrase "middle-aged" intact, but it alerts me that there could be other examples where too many liberties are taken in subbing where we lose distinction of meaning. If we were ever to build a collage of the scenes you've nailed down, the ideal is probably Line 1) kanji of spoken word Line 2) hiragana of spoken word Line 3) romaji of spoken word Line 4) englishy translations of spoken word I guess that cold get cluttersome, it might work better to tack on some height to a video to make room for such over-subbing rather than do an overlay if it would clutter the vid too much. It seems the "middle-aged" requirement of a lolicon might have gradually been lost by the time of Lucky Star though since by that point Konata is asking her dad if her own high-schooler classmates are lolicons if they crush on her. |
YJBSep 12, 2022 11:32 PM
| @tycio the word is used in JJBA Stone Ocean part 2. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
EndlessMaria said: @tycio the word is used in JJBA Stone Ocean part 2. that's a new release right? we can tack it onto the bottom though I'm more interested in older releases I guess trying to find similar roots for shotacon is a nightmare, I can't find any english references prior to 2004 on google books so I'm going to need to use the symbols... ショタコン on Google Books searches is a nightmare though, seems like I'm getting false positives because this one result is supposedly from 1907 which is half a century prior to Tetsujin 28 go https://www.google.ca/books/edition/%E6%97%A5%E8%87%BA%E5%A4%A7%E8%BE%AD%E5%85%B8/nRJBAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3&pg=PA210-IA104&printsec=frontcover |
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