| I've been thinking a lot about this and I want to give up fansubs. I'd like to limit my anime intake and more importantly, make sure I'm supporting the industry more than I have been. However, my resolve is weak because of a few other factors. 1. How ingrained fansubs are in the fandom; let's face it. If you don't watch fansubs, you're always going to be a slowpoke. You risk being spoiled on everything, and no one's going to care about what you think about it because by the time you see it legitly, it will be old news to everyone else. In short, if you don't watch fansubs, you distance yourself from the majority of the fandom. 2. The inconvenience of the alternatives; no, I'm not just talking about money. Netflix solves that problem. What I'm talking about is big, bulky DVDs taking up space left and right. I already have enough DVDs. I've proven I support the industry, but I still don't think it's right that just because of my collection, I feel exempt from ever having to buy DVDs again. Also, given all the pushes against copyright infringement, it's becoming impossible to even play a DVD on a computer (my main monitor for any anime) and if I can't watch it, why should I pay for it? 3. The limitations; not every anime is licensed, and any fansub watcher can tell you how sad it is that certain hidden gems go unnoticed for years or maybe altogether. Many of my favorite anime are not typically licensed for American consumption. If I were to surrender anime fansubs altogether, I'd be removing myself from a large chunk of anime genres I like. On the postiive of things, giving up fansubs means that whenever I watch anime from now on, I'm supporting the industry that makes and licenses and sells the anime. I'm funding them so they can make more anime. I WANT more anime, so this is good for both of us. Also, giving up fansubs reduces the guilt of not funding the industry, something that's bugged me for a while. So I ask you MAL members, is it foolish to quit the fansub addiction or am I making a step for the better? |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
| Theres 1 think i know for sure. If i had money i would buy all my animes for sure. I would love have the DvD and support them! But Sadly i really cant afford not a single DvD since in Greece they r waaaaay too expensive. But anyways that doesnt mean i wouldnt watch subbs. I want to be able to discuss new wps on MAL and other ppl. But when the DvDs r out i would buy them for sure. |
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| What about still watching fansubs, and buying the series that you like the most? That way you don't waste money on something that you might find disappealing, and are still "up to date" on whatever is airing at the moment. I'd find it hard to give up fansubs, considering where I am there are not many licensed anime, and if there are, they are *badly* dubbed >.> Sometimes I feel like fansubbers put more attention in the series then those who are paid to do their job, and it's not a good thing. |
| Well, what I normally do is buy older series DVD's/new releases and save the fansubs to newly aired stuff. If the show isn't airing anymore for quite some time, I wait to see if it was picked up for licensed. Also, bulky dvds... well wait for box sets. They look nicer. |
| Yay for supporting the industry! My suggestions, in order: 1. Eh, I'm never up-to-date, and I don't care. It's quite overrated. Plus, there will usually be hardcore fans sticking around after a series finishes. 2. If you're worried about space, you can try putting your DVDs into different cases (thinpaks or bricks, search around the Animeondvd.com forums and you should find some decent info on repackaging your DVDs), getting rid of the packaging entirely (extreme, but it saves space), focus on series in compact cases, or find some large and empty, but not very attractive, space to keep them (a closet or something). I don't know what to say about not being able to play things on your computer though, that just sucks. 3. You could always switch to not watching fansubs unless the series has a very low chance of getting licensed! If you're really worried about supporting even those series, maybe you could buy a few R2s or some merchandise? |
| Tons of anime never reaches the US, enough said |
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LovelongSought said: Tons of anime never reaches the US, enough said If a series is licensed, I don't download it, but somehow I feel like that isn't enough. Should I put a time cap on certain series, like if it's been out for 5 years and the US still hasn't picked it up, it's free game? Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I'm starting to see a clearer picture here. |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
| 5 years.... you'd probably forget by then that you ever wanted to watch it |
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LovelongSought said: 5 years.... you'd probably forget by then that you ever wanted to watch it I still wanna watch Tokyo Mew Mew... |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
| Well I still buy anime but I watch it subbed to see if it's worth buying if it reaches the US and yet I still watch it subbed on Dvd |
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| I have zero qualms about downloading licensed series. In fact, anime companies have gotten a large number of purchases out of me because I downloaded licensed series, as I rarely ever buy something I haven't checked out previously. Even if I don't like the series particularly, I might pick up the OST if its good. New series I like to watch as they air because of the discussion that goes on. I think this even improves some series (ie. Haruhi). So I really don't see what the fuss is. Watch whatever anime you want. I think you'd miss out on a lot if you only limited yourself to licensed series. And stick to thinpak release if you want to save space. |
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LovelongSought said: 5 years.... you'd probably forget by then that you ever wanted to watch it We have a section on our lists for that! :p |
Splitter said: LovelongSought said: 5 years.... you'd probably forget by then that you ever wanted to watch it I still wanna watch Tokyo Mew Mew... I heard the dub for that was butchered, so you should probably go with the subs on that one. And just...don't stress over it so much. You watch anime cause you enjoy it, right? It makes you happy. So, do whatever makes you happy. It's nice that you're concerned with supporting the industry, and it's fine that you don't want to distance yourself from the fandom, but I don't think it's healthy to put either of those above just watching and enjoying anime. |
| D&D Club Because my sig making skills are non-existant. |
| What? Man, you should just cut down on your anime watching, not kill your fansub intake! Cut down on anime! Go for it~! |
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| I agree with you on all that, but it's sad that fansubbers are so much better than professional subbers. One thing I love about fansubbers is how they don't try to translate certain untranslatable things into English. For instance, the Japanese system of suffixes. While a fansubber would have in their subtitles "Yoruichi-dono", a professional would say "Lady Yoruichi" which just sounds stupid. Fansubbers understand that some things need to just be left in Japanese. Fansubbers also provide a more accurate translation that stay closer to the original script than do professional ones. |
quitearush said: Fansubbers also provide a more accurate translation that stay closer to the original script than do professional ones. I've never seen a completely accurate fansub. NEVER. |
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| Fansubs and fansubbers are the slime of the fandom. To date, I have watched probably only seven or eight series online. All of which there is no physical way for me to get a hold of. They have not been dubbed and I cannot import them from Japan. Besides, aside from the petty fact that you wont be as far as the people who steal, you get high-quality, professionally translated, snazzy DVD's with up to six episodes with some series, plus extras and such. And hey, if you're not a fan of dubs, there is the un-cut, professionally subtitled Japanese track. Worried about space? But the box-sets, and hey! Some of them even come in slim packs ( which are absolutely beautiful by the way! They fit almost anywhere! ) and really, it is worth it. And there is also the fact of: NO GUILT. You paid for what you are watching. You have the right to be watching it. What you are watching is not illegal and you are not making the fans who actually support the industry suffer. My FAVORITE dubbing company, Geneon, went out of business in November. 50% of the reason went to the fact that fansubs are now the priority for most "fans". The industry is suffering, and if things continue down the path of fansubs, there will be no such thing as legal anime in America. In the old days, fansubs were for previewing. People would sub the first two or three episodes to get it out there that there was fans of it so it would get dubbed. Now they sub boundless amounts of episodes and that is how people get their anime fix. It is greedy, speedy, self-indulgence and it is sickening. In shorter terms: DROP THOSE NASTY FANSUBS. =D |
| I've felt guilty about it for awhile, too. So I decided I would buy every anime series that I've seen illegally whether I liked it or not. I can buy my favorite ones first but if I run out of favorites then I have to buy the ones I don't like. Sure it's not as good as only buying anime but it's something better. |
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| I feel guilt all the time, when I do I just think of Ghost Stories, or what is about to happen to poor Sola and I feel less guilty. Don't get me wrong I like ADV and really support their online player(when it works) but Ghost stories is a horrible dub. |
| My anime list |
| Hey ObsidianJoy, what's up man. Splitter: I'd have to agree with lynx. Keep buying the anime you like, and continue watching fansubs of unlicensed anime. It's the best way to do things. Also, no, fansubs are not always better than official translations. Fansubbers are amateurs who, for the most part, are still learning the language themselves. :/ |
You can find me on IRC. |
| I don't watch fansubs. Personally, I hate them. That said, I think that watching them is fine as long as you continue to buy the shows. It sounds like you don't want to leave fansubs behind. So, why not keep watching fansubs while still buying DVDs? I really want to say you should give them up, but I'm happy as long as people buy DVDs. |
SuiDream88Mar 4, 2008 10:30 AM
| I dont think you should feel guilty about watching fansubs. Do you feel guilty watching tv shows? okay, better yet, do you feel guilty watching TV shows online? or do you feel the need to own every single tv show you've watched.. I say you should not drop fansubs. I mean ,you can still support things by buying the dvds when they come out in america (which will probably take a LONG time) or buy merchandise. Besides, there are a lot of anime shows that havent been licensed yet , or never will be... and do you really want to limit yourself to what is only available in the US anime/manga market? |
quitearush said: I agree with you on all that, but it's sad that fansubbers are so much better than professional subbers. One thing I love about fansubbers is how they don't try to translate certain untranslatable things into English. For instance, the Japanese system of suffixes. While a fansubber would have in their subtitles "Yoruichi-dono", a professional would say "Lady Yoruichi" which just sounds stupid. Fansubbers understand that some things need to just be left in Japanese. Fansubbers also provide a more accurate translation that stay closer to the original script than do professional ones. Using more Japanese words =/= more accurate. Plus some companies use Japanese terms in their subtitles and plenty of fansubbers don't. |
katsup said: I dont think you should feel guilty about watching fansubs. Do you feel guilty watching tv shows? okay, better yet, do you feel guilty watching TV shows online? or do you feel the need to own every single tv show you've watched.. TV shows and fansubs are COMPLETELY different. TV shows get there revenue FROM being on TV. As for the online bit, if it is through illegal means and you don't support the product, yes, I think you should feel guilty. By watching the show, you are ensuring that more shows like it are made, and you ensure the creators are compensated. I think some people are feeling guilty about watching fansubs because of the state of the R1 market and the state of anime in Japan. Sales are severely down in R1 and the downward trend continues in the Japanese market. If anime doesn't make money, then bye bye anime. Plus, there's the whole morality thing. Haha, I wanted to just say that the comparison was flawed, but I guess I went into a little rant. |
SuiDream88Mar 4, 2008 4:53 PM
| I agree with Kuyukly -- fansubbers are amateurs, and while some are quite good at what they do, they are nowhere near perfect and rarely professional. Professional translators usually "interpret" (like the example, "Yoruichi-dono" to "Lady Yoruichi") whereas fansubs and scanslations tend to favor literal translation. It's not necessarily better to read a literal translation and then have to interpret it's meaning yourself (which is essentially what you must do). And often too literal wording can make a character sound stupid, or make all character's way of talking sound the same. Interpretation allows for better understanding of slang and intonations that amateurs might not get. Regarding industry support -- the industry is most definitely in trouble: Geneon, ADV, FUNimation, 4Kids; Anime is loosing its footing in the US. Fansubbers originally worked hard to "promote the anime industry's growth" in the US. I think they should make a pledge to only sub the first 3 to 8 eps (depending on series length) and let fan interest fuel licensing interest. Also, the royalties *do* get back to the artist--let's not forget the licensing issues for Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon are in part due to Naoko Takeuchi demanding a higher-than-standard royalty on it. The US companies pay royalties to the J companies who in turn must pay royalties to the creators (and sometimes even the seiyuu!). |
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quitearush said: Well, the pros have a more general audience in mind. Really, why would any casual viewer care what "-san" and "itadakimasu" means? Also, the pros have the actual script to work with, resulting in much better translations than what fansubbers come up with.I agree with you on all that, but it's sad that fansubbers are so much better than professional subbers. One thing I love about fansubbers is how they don't try to translate certain untranslatable things into English. For instance, the Japanese system of suffixes. While a fansubber would have in their subtitles "Yoruichi-dono", a professional would say "Lady Yoruichi" which just sounds stupid. Fansubbers understand that some things need to just be left in Japanese. Fansubbers also provide a more accurate translation that stay closer to the original script than do professional ones. |
strawberry-kun said: katsup said: I dont think you should feel guilty about watching fansubs. Do you feel guilty watching tv shows? okay, better yet, do you feel guilty watching TV shows online? or do you feel the need to own every single tv show you've watched.. TV shows and fansubs are COMPLETELY different. TV shows get there revenue FROM being on TV. As for the online bit, if it is through illegal means and you don't support the product, yes, I think you should feel guilty. By watching the show, you are ensuring that more shows like it are made, and you ensure the creators are compensated. I think some people are feeling guilty about watching fansubs because of the state of the R1 market and the state of anime in Japan. Sales are severely down in R1 and the downward trend continues in the Japanese market. If anime doesn't make money, then bye bye anime. Plus, there's the whole morality thing. Haha, I wanted to just say that the comparison was flawed, but I guess I went into a little rant. i knew someone would say that about my comparison. i know they're different, but to me its the same thing. especially since i never watch commercials due to all the things like tivo/dvr. to me, watching tv shows on tv/computer is the same as anime. i know its a flawed arguement, but i just dont see how you should feel guilty watching fansubs when in japan people watch it for free on TV. |
katsup said: i knew someone would say that about my comparison. i know they're different, but to me its the same thing. especially since i never watch commercials due to all the things like tivo/dvr. to me, watching tv shows on tv/computer is the same as anime. i know its a flawed arguement, but i just dont see how you should feel guilty watching fansubs when in japan people watch it for free on TV. It doesn't matter whether you watch the commercials or not. Advertisers pay based on the number of viewers. The point is that the show and it's creators are still making money. I just love the sense of entitlement people have these days. First, television is NOT free in Japan. In addition to cable fees, you must pay a national tax just for owning a TV. Besides, anime airs on TV in Japan. The key word is Japan. This isn't Japan, and no one is entitled to free anime because it aired in Japan. Life sucks. Move on. As for why should people feel guilty, I already said it. You can see the panic all over the web on various anime sites. The industry has been shot by the fans and is currently on life support. There is less anime being made now. If people don't stop being cheap anime will no longer be made. I certainly don't think that most will ever feel guilty. I am trying to explain the reasoning of one who thinks people should feel guilty. I love my hobby, and I don't want to see it go away. |
SuiDream88Mar 4, 2008 5:43 PM
strawberry-kun said: katsup said: i knew someone would say that about my comparison. i know they're different, but to me its the same thing. especially since i never watch commercials due to all the things like tivo/dvr. to me, watching tv shows on tv/computer is the same as anime. i know its a flawed arguement, but i just dont see how you should feel guilty watching fansubs when in japan people watch it for free on TV. It doesn't matter whether you watch the commercials or not. Advertisers pay based on the number of viewers. The point is that the show and it's creators are still making money. Television is NOT free in Japan. In addition to cable fees, you must pay a national tax just for owning a TV. Besides, anime airs on TV in Japan. The key word is Japan. This isn't Japan, and no one is entitled to free anime because it aired in Japan. Life sucks. Move on. As for why should people feel guilty, I already said it. You can see the panic all over the web on various anime sites. The industry has been shot by the fans and is currently on life support. There is less anime being made now. If people don't stop being cheap anime will no longer be made. I certainly don't think that most will ever feel guilty. I am trying to explain the reasoning of one who thinks people should feel guilty. I love my hobby, and I don't want to see it go away. You said that beautifully, and I am glad I'm not the only one who thinks in this logic. I mean really, Geneon died. 50% of the reason that I can now never finish one of my very favorite series is because people are too cheap and too lazy to support the suffering industry. You know, this is sad but I can't wait until the day that the anime industry completely collapses due to the shallowness of "fans". Who'll be whining and bitching the most if and when worse comes to worse. The one who can't even find anime online or the ones who have their own personal stock of DVD's, manga, and other anime/manga related merchandise. It'll serve them right. Pft. |
quitearush said: Well, the pros have a more general audience in mind. Really, why would any casual viewer care what "-san" and "itadakimasu" means? Also, the pros have the actual script to work with, resulting in much better translations than what fansubbers come up with.I agree with you on all that, but it's sad that fansubbers are so much better than professional subbers. One thing I love about fansubbers is how they don't try to translate certain untranslatable things into English. For instance, the Japanese system of suffixes. While a fansubber would have in their subtitles "Yoruichi-dono", a professional would say "Lady Yoruichi" which just sounds stupid. Fansubbers understand that some things need to just be left in Japanese. Fansubbers also provide a more accurate translation that stay closer to the original script than do professional ones. |
strawberry-kun said: I certainly don't think that most will ever feel guilty. I am trying to explain the reasoning of one who thinks people should feel guilty. I love my hobby, and I don't want to see it go away. I agree -- A fair amount of US anime fans -- pro-fansub ones in particular -- will just breathe a sigh of relief that they can resume DLing every anime on fansub rather than pay for a US-licensed release. I know many who rush to order/DL fansubs of shows just as the licensing is announced, before the fansub is pulled. If they're so keen to see it, why not support its release? Anywho, I also hope that the US industry doesn't collapse, but our economy's not doing so great and anime may have missed its chance to make it safely into the US "mainstream." :*( |
| |
AnomalousOne said: I wasn't implying that, that's why those two claims were in separate paragraphs :)Using more Japanese words =/= more accurate. |
Allura said: strawberry-kun said: I certainly don't think that most will ever feel guilty. I am trying to explain the reasoning of one who thinks people should feel guilty. I love my hobby, and I don't want to see it go away. I agree -- A fair amount of US anime fans -- pro-fansub ones in particular -- will just breathe a sigh of relief that they can resume DLing every anime on fansub rather than pay for a US-licensed release. I know many who rush to order/DL fansubs of shows just as the licensing is announced, before the fansub is pulled. If they're so keen to see it, why not support its release? Anywho, I also hope that the US industry doesn't collapse, but our economy's not doing so great and anime may have missed its chance to make it safely into the US "mainstream." :*( I think you may have misunderstood me a bit. I'm talking about the Japanese side of things, too. Sales are going down in Japan as well. Having no US market will further damage the industry in Japan. I think the industry will manage to adapt, but when I say the industry is dying, I mean the ENTIRE industry. If there's no more anime made, DL'ers are just as screwed as we are. Like I said though, I REALLY doubt it will get that bad. I'm very confident that the industry will find an answer before things get that bad. I do fear that things may get a whole lot worse before a solution surfaces, though. |
SuiDream88Mar 4, 2008 6:58 PM
strawberry-kun said: I think you may have misunderstood me a bit. I'm talking about the Japanese side of things, too. Sales are going down in Japan as well. Having no US market will further damage the industry in Japan. I think the industry will manage to adapt, but when I say the industry is dying, I mean the ENTIRE industry. If there's no more anime made, DL'ers are just as screwed as we are. Like I said though, I REALLY doubt it will get that bad. I'm very confident that the industry will find an answer before things get that bad. I do fear that things may get a whole lot worse before a solution surfaces, though. Ack! Yea, I was thinking you just meant the US industry...if the J industry went down everyone'd be screwed. |
| |
| Alright, thank you everyone for your opinions. I agree that it's right to support the industry and that's what I'm going to do. While I'm not going to buy anymore than I usually do (i.e. 3-4 series a year and maybe a movie or two), I'm going to stop dl'ing the more common, recent and popular series. HOWEVER, I don't want to give up fansubs altogther. There are series out there that will never be licensed. Can you honestly tell me I'll be able to buy something like Akazukin Chacha in America? I didn't think so. I can wait for stuff like Dennou Coil and Moyashimon, and the way I see it, if in five years there's no interest in them, I'll consider them fair game. Seriously, if a show isn't licensed five years from it's initial release, there's a rare RARE chance it will ever be licensed at all. Everything else can wait. I'm going to get a Netflix account and keep tearing through anime as quickly as I please, and this time I'll be paying for the privelege and reward the industry for allowing me to enjoy the anime they paid for the rights to let me view it in my country. This is my decision and I thank you all for helping me come to it. Tokyo Mew Mew, here I come! EDIT: Of course, I would like to finish the winter season and my backlog. I can always Netflix anything that does get licensed out of those ^_^" |
SplitterMar 4, 2008 8:05 PM
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
| ROFL I love these threads. They always bring the stuck-up fans out the woodwork. Not to say that everyone here was that way (FAR from it...most people were reasonable), but, well....you know who you are. All I gotta say is that I'll feel guilt when I'm allowed to return a series I paid for if I felt genuinely dissatisfied with the ending. (*cough*NGE*coughcough*) Until then I'll download, watch, then if enjoyable, buy--totally guilt-free. Asking any fan for more than that (when they're honest with themselves about what series they enjoy rather than just buying the Top 5 or Top 10 or some bs) is supporting that idea of "screw the little person, what about the business?!" that America...and the world in general, really....has gotten WAY too used to. |
| Jumping in Headfirst - I hear reading it causes immortality. Warning. Reading may not actually cause immortality. |
SageShinigami said: ROFL I love these threads. They always bring the stuck-up fans out the woodwork. Not to say that everyone here was that way (FAR from it...most people were reasonable), but, well....you know who you are. All I gotta say is that I'll feel guilt when I'm allowed to return a series I paid for if I felt genuinely dissatisfied with the ending. (*cough*NGE*coughcough*) Until then I'll download, watch, then if enjoyable, buy--totally guilt-free. Asking any fan for more than that (when they're honest with themselves about what series they enjoy rather than just buying the Top 5 or Top 10 or some bs) is supporting that idea of "screw the little person, what about the business?!" that America...and the world in general, really....has gotten WAY too used to. Now see, this is a genuine differentiation from the "Advertisers pay for people to watch TV shows!" See, anime isn't cheap, and you're gonna pay at least 60 bucks for any given series; at LEAST. If that series sucks and you didn't know that when you bought it... and no one else had ever seen it (in this magical scenario, fansubs don't exist), then you just poured 60 bucks down the drain. At least with American TV box sets, you knew what you were buying... but then again, that's why I'm going Netflix :3 No more 100 dollar travesties on my shelves anymore ^^ |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
| Someone doesn't know how to bargain shop. I rarely buy complete series for over $60, and I DON'T own any bootlegs. |
|
| There you go. :D I mean, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I don't support people downloading and never buying even when they finish it and rave on the forums how OMG THAT WAS THE BEST SHOW EVAR! No, that's horrible. People that do that should be ashamed of themselves. I'm not going to make any retarded argument about how anime should be free, or bring up how "people don't pay for it in Japan (which is a lie)" or whatever. I am saying that people that are honest enough can at least use fansubs as a sort of "equalizer" to keep themselves from buying series that aren't worth the DVDs they were burned on. They have value for that, and people that say otherwise are just being stuck-up. And no, sometimes you can't tell from one or two episodes. You know what? I actually liked NGE until about episode 10 or 11, when that one kid got hospitalized. From there it was downhill, but still worth the watch until that ending...OMG I felt like I'd wasted 10 hours of my life. :P That's obviously just one example, but if you pressed me into thinking about it, I could give others. And, more to the point, so could others. We all have seen series that started out okay and then somehow degenerated into crap. I suppose one could rave about how the industry might still die if people did that, but that would be....well...painfully stupid. Good luck with your current approach, Splitter! :) |
| Jumping in Headfirst - I hear reading it causes immortality. Warning. Reading may not actually cause immortality. |
| I buy complete boxsets when they're done (saves me from having half finished series when companies cease production, for one thing) because they're cheaper. I also like to catch sales. I';ve bought numerous 24-26 ep series for under $50. I follow most series in any given season, usually, even if licensed; I'd rather watch it now, than wait > 12 months (or anywhere past it) for DVD releases. Naturally I buy the box sets when it's complete, a few years later. But I like watching current stuff when it airs, not dealing with that huge delay. Still, it's up to you what you want to do. |
| Yeah, I think pretty much everyone would agree that it is perfectly fine to use fansubs as a preview so to speak. The people who refuse to buy anything are the problem. Anyway, good luck Splitter! |
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