| Bare with me that I don't know a lot of philosophy so I may be wrong. I was thinking a while recently and started thinking about the effects philosophy has on people. It came to mind if someone were to adopt a nihilistic view in that everything is without meaning it would leave a person with a hole to fill that can not be filled for to seek or desire filling the hole is without meaning. However humans among other life are not purely actors of conscious beliefs of the mind. The unconscious mind that is the primal mind of the body knows what is valuable and that is pleasure. In seeking such pleasure with lack of meaning the consequences on other beings can hold no concern for the actor has only bodily pleasure from ones own body and a pleasure purely of the mind requires meaning to be sought after. Thus nihilism leads to Hedonistic Egoism especially in it's earlier incarnations. Is this a reasonable conclusion to make? What are philosophical outcomes of other philosophies you can think of? Edit: I guess I need to clarify more. When I speak of nihilism I am speaking both of Moral Nihilism and Existentialism. When I say there is no meaning I speak not just objectively but subjectively too. So what I am saying is lets say this person adopts a nihilistic view and from this view they enjoy rather than dread. A person who dreads this will seek to find meaning. A person who enjoys this lack of meaning will make no concious effort to create a personal meaning and from the lack of personal meaning also may lack any personal morals in a stable form. This will eventually lead to just focus on the self in relation to pleasure vs pain whether or not they are consciously aware of this. To help you understand. Imagine a child raised with a Nihilistic outlook and no parental encouragement to find meaning and value. What would he/she be like when they get older? Would it not be like I described? I am not arguing for or against any philosophy but am talking about how they effect peoples outlooks and actions in a way it can transform into something else. |
traedSep 6, 2018 12:53 AM
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| Fulfillment is a key aspect of life, and material goods/bodily pleasure can't fully cover that. If you're single with no friends or children at 80, despite having all the money in the world, being revered or even feared, chances are that you'll be miserable. Just as people have instinctive yearnings for bodily pleasures like sex, alcohol, food and drugs, we also have yearnings for more intrinsic goods. Like human relations (which you can't maintain being an egoist since everyone will hate you), excellence in performance e.g. being a great tennis player or chess grandmaster (generally things that give you pride in yourself and worth). Achieving this is difficult if you don't place limits on your actions and so hedonism doesn't really work well to be consistent with this goal since it requires discipline. Even 'religion counts'. When I say religion I don't mean just traditional religious beliefs. To give a short example, to an atheist, spreading human rights can be his ultimate calling or even protecting the environment/endangered species. There are more intrinsic goods but I can't recall all of them right now. As you say we are not purely actors of conscious beliefs so wanting these things despite their worthlessness in the grand scheme of things is not strange. We are innately wired towards being social beings and enjoying standing out for praise. Even if a nihilist believes everything is worthless, he/she will likely have a place in his heart for these things just as he/she has a place in his heart for sex and food. And as a matter of fact I would place more importance on these intrinsic goods than bodily pleasures. Maybe not everyone agrees, but if I think so, I'm certainly not the only one who thinks that way. I doubt I'm that unique. So I think I can say that nihilism does not necessarily lead to hedonistic egoism. That's my point of view at least. I hope I haven't misunderstood your post. |
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| No, that is not a reasonable conclusion to make. If you mean egoism as an ethical theory, then the nihilist who has rejected all meaning cannot possibly arrive at another ethical theory. If you mean that the nihilist, who no longer responds to meaning, will shut their mind off and let primal functions take over, this might be possible in some hypothetical sense, but not in reality. One cannot simply just shut his mind off. An attempt to do so leads to the rational conclusion of nihilism -- suicide by inaction. The nihilist will be paralyzed by his inability to make any kind of rational decision. Since he cannot just shut his mind off, his only choice is to sit there and die. Which is why no one takes nihilism seriously as a philosophy, except teenage edgelords with a Chuunibyou complex. It's actually self-refuting. How can someone make the rational decision to reject something that is meaningless in the first place? The nihilist attempts to make the proposition Not A, and then forgets that A cannot be a proposition. Since there is no meaning, he isn't able to conclude that there's no meaning in the first place... unless, he never concluded anything at all. If anything it leads to lack of egoism. The nihilist, in my opinion, admits that he is stupid and incapable of thought. Edit: If you take nihilism to mean relativism like the poster below, then there might be a different conclusion. This post assumes nihilism refers to the position holding that there is no objective nor subjective meaning, as described here. http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195147790.001.0001/acprof-9780195147797-chapter-10 |
katsucatsSep 5, 2018 4:12 AM
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| I studied the topic a lot in a psychological research setting and I do have a fair few things to say about it. What you said sounds like a plausible outcome of one high on a sociopathic spectrum or a psychopath, but I don't think it would be the normal case. There are two forms of nihilism, if you're a Nietzsche or Camus man that is, the active and the passive nihilist. An active nihilist is fine, you could call them an existentialist, being someone who searches for meaning in a world where there is inherently none. An actively nihilistic individual with a high psychopathological affliction might well turn to hedonism, but for your normal sample space it's fair to conclude that those who were able to gather the introspection and self exploration required to transition from a passive nihilist to an active would rank a search for meaning above those of carnal pleasures. Though that leave the passive nihilist. The hypothesis of choice is that nihilism in and of itself has nothing to intrinsically do with the outside world. It's a blurring of the self, an inability to resemble yourself introspectively, find out your purpose. Now lingering too long in passive nihilism has the unfortunate consequence of ego-death, which makes sense. Believe you're nothing, meaningless, for that long and whether it was true or not it will be. Those that report as nihilistic tend to likewise (strong correlation) have extremely low introspective levels. (While that doesn't mean much on it's own, pair the fact that passive nihilist have extremely low introspection reports while existentialists (transgressed 'active nihilists) report significantly higher introspection than even the sample population. So I don't think the normalised subject would fall to hedonistic ego on either side of nihilism (controlled for psychosis of course). |
| @TheDeadApostle See my edit in the OP. It's not an argument of what philosophy is right. @katsucats A persons actions can contradict their beliefs though and beliefs can evolve from one thing to another just from simply changing their mind and does not require a logical conclusion contrained within Nihilism. I didn't mean they would shut their mind off but just simply in not finding meaning they would become short sighted and self oriented. I do see how you came to that conclusion though because I was using a more watered down version of that in some of my thoughts that such a person wouldn't put much effort in things they do. Also see my edit I tried to clarify a bit. @Vulze See my edit in the OP and my reply to kastucats and king-in-yellow in this reply. Unless I am mistaken that should adress what you said. (im writing these out of order) @king-in-yellow Well I was imagining it as more gradual and not to say they necessarily would act out all the worst possible outcomes of Hedonistic Egoism so I'm not equating sociopathy and egoism because an egoist can take group desires into consideration of their own best interests. Though what I said about lack of concern for long term outcomes as a result of Nihilism does imply possible sociopathy but I wouldn't rule out the possability of a non sociopath going this Hedonistic Egoist route. I was basically just saying a person who has no conscious desire to seek meaning will more likely start to behave in a more self centered manner. Might want to check my OP edit before replying but I was leaning more toward my argument relying on spmething more like passive Nihilism but I lacked that term to try to describe things before to explain what type of Nihilism I was talking about. @deg A little more complicated than that because I'm being more specific in where that person goes with those views |
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| Your topic title kind of poisons the well in a sense, by making it sound like hedonistic egoism is a bad idea (many article titles which attempt to catch attention and look alarming use similar "___ leads to ____?!" wording) |
| There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show. ~ blatant ad: https://myanimelist.net/blog/Crusader_8 I spend the time to write it, so please read it lol |
| It does, in some cases, but it doesn't constrain the possibilities down to this one. In my honest opinion, philosophers have invented more terms than were ever needed for a proper discourse. Nihilism is one of them. It's nothing more than the shock people experienced at having realized that Physicalism might just be the only valid ontological view. That's why you hardly ever see people committing suicide because they became nihilists; they all grow up eventually before they go full retard. |
| Nope-you're wrong, it leads to Trumpisn (also called moronism). |
| Life Is Short But Intense. |
| I think you've reached one possible conclusion of the Nihilistic viewpoint. But, someone has to have a hedonistic approach already to get here. Most people fall into one of the two lifestyles; Hedonism or Stoicism. In your line of thought, the individual was probably a Hedonist, or leaned towards Hedonism before they decided upon Nihilism as a belief system. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Stoicism, I think would lead to Existential Nihilism. People who are Stoic don't pursue pleasures in the same way that Hedonists do. As a Hedonist, the fact that you find pleasures is a reason for existence in itself when carried to the extreme. This erases their Nihilism to a certain extent. That leaves Stoicism with Existential Nihilism which, simply put, means life and everything in existence is meaningless and there is no point in doing, thinking, or feeling anything, even pleasure. |
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| YES, IT ABSOLUTELY DOES. I dated of of those, and he was totally that. Plus, I think it's super fucking arrogant to just say "I know there is no meaning to everything", Like no, you can't possibly know that. So fuck those people, they are way too into themselves.. |
| Side note: I think philosophy is a bunch of waste of time discussions about theories about theories and don't actually do anything or change anyone. I guess, purely for the art of conversation, sure knock yourself out. But in essence I think it's a self indulgent waste of time. |
| Well I don't know about all those fancy philomosofical words. But I'm pretty sure "nihilism leads to hedonistic egoism" means "stop caring about shit and you can indulge in your base pleasures for entirely selfish reasons" And that sounds like a fun time to me. |
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| The error in this argument (as the title says, since I cannot follow whatever you said in the body of your post, for the life of me) and as @Bobby2Hands explicitly pointed out that, Nihilism in its essence is the lack of care for anything in the world; a sort of cognitive dissonance towards life and meaning. In reality, what I mean by cognitive dissonance, is that the amount of doubt fluctuates overtime as you go on believing in this philosophy and as you tackle whatever you experience and subdue it to meaninglessness consistently. Here's the logical error: - I believe as a nihilist that everything is meaningless and thus emptiness encompasses whatever it is I feel, see, believe or think. - I submit myself to my primal instincts because of that. That is a false conclusion. If you are a true nihilist, this will lead to your instincts to be also meaningless -- not worth seeking. And so, in principle, nihilism will not lead to hedonism. |
| @Vulze Utilitarianism Hedonism is a thing so I wouldn't say the two are totally different but I understand where that difference you describe causes a different set of behaviours. Epicureanism holds friendship in high importance for happiness so I think that also isn't too different from Utilitarianism in to have a friend and be a friend you have to think of others than ones self. I suppose I get what you mean though a bit hard to grasp at this time without rest. My premise was just a possibility not meant to imply the only conclusion. It goes back to me trying to answer how does a Nihilist act in life if they don't even find subjective meaning. @Tenma I suppose I get what you mean. A person would find no value in the actions they already do then would see all actions as without value but I don't think that's really a necessary starting point to get to Nihilism to lead to an unconsciously guided form of Hedonism. I'm not sure how you got the connection to Stoicism. Aren't Stoics about virtue? So they can't also be a Nihilist in the way I described because they would be forming subjective virtues to uphold but what I described is someone not actively seeking to give value to things. I hope I understood right. @Si-ran Sorry you were with someone like that. The scientific method came from a branch of philosophy. Also ethics is also a branch of philosophy. Many laws and court cases use arguments of ethics. @Bobby2Hands Basically yeah you can put it that way but I wouldn't argue for that being a good thing. @deg Yes but not as over the top and more simplistic. It's only like it in the lack of long term planning. @Yarub I'm not so sure of that because doing nothing is also meaningless / valueless and so is rejecting natural impulses and desires as well as overthinking every action. A nihilist isn't a person in a vegetative state that just sits there till they drop dead. Something being without meaning doesn't stop it from feeling good and people do things that feel good even though they don't even want to do it for example a heroin addict that wants to quit but keeps injecting themselves. This is because concious desires (or lack there of) can be overtaken by subconcious desires. What you say is like what katsucats said so read my reply in post 7 as well. |
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| Interesting discussion. A very subjective matter, of course, as it's philosophy. I would deem everyone to have a different perspective and definition of what they would consider hedonism and nihilism. While I am obviously not trying to explain a science, I would like to narrate the first thought that came into my mind reading your discussion: how doe atheists feel? As a believer in God, nihilism is something that doesn't strike me too often. It has, at points in life where depression had stronghold, but I am very curious about how an atheist would take this in stride--if there is nothing after life, does that not make life more nihilistic for them? And would they not be encouraged to follow hedonistic ways more often (not necessarily involving immorality)? I am quite curious. If any atheist can explain their point of view, I would be intrigued. |
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Vulze said: @Traed @k0k0 Fundamentally, people just want to be happy. And in the pursuit of happiness, you invariably develop a notion of what that is, what that entails, how the world works and so forth. People with different backgrounds, personalities and views of the world will opt for different approaches to a life worth living, whether it be trough pleasure (e.g. utilitarianism, epicureanism), virtue (stoicism, asceticism) or other means. Nihilism is not a practical philosophy, it’s a viewpoint. And you can be eclectic, i.e. you can pick and choose instead of fully adhering to a school of thought. I agree with you. I feel we all are limited to operating on reductionism, that is, simplifying complex notions that cannot be explained properly in simplification, but we don't have much of a choice since the topic is so abstract and perspective-based. Thank you for your input, though. Makes good sense. |
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k0k0 said: Interesting discussion. A very subjective matter, of course, as it's philosophy. I would deem everyone to have a different perspective and definition of what they would consider hedonism and nihilism. While I am obviously not trying to explain a science, I would like to narrate the first thought that came into my mind reading your discussion: how doe atheists feel? As a believer in God, nihilism is something that doesn't strike me too often. It has, at points in life where depression had stronghold, but I am very curious about how an atheist would take this in stride--if there is nothing after life, does that not make life more nihilistic for them? And would they not be encouraged to follow hedonistic ways more often (not necessarily involving immorality)? I am quite curious. If any atheist can explain their point of view, I would be intrigued. Logically, atheism doesn't entail nihilism. You suddenly realize one day that your prior justifications for values were wrong, and for sometime it is very tempting to believe that therefore your values were wrong or non-existent. But then you trace your own logic back to its roots and find out that regardless of the veracity of God, the need for morality or morality must have been genuine. And now, you're a part of the endless debate about morality's true justification. Nothing lost any value in the process. Life goes on the same. |
k0k0 said: I hear this argument often from religious people. It seems short-sighted, one that doesn't require any external answer but a little bit of soul searching would do. I am very curious about how an atheist would take this in stride--if there is nothing after life, does that not make life more nihilistic for them? And would they not be encouraged to follow hedonistic ways more often (not necessarily involving immorality)? Suppose you are diagnosed with terminal stage cancer and have 90 days to live out the rest of your life. What does your life look like then? Do you go around in a rampage of sex and drugs? Do you continue normally, or healthily, in hopes that you could beat it? Suppose you watch an anime. It's one cour long, 12 episode. It has a definite ending. You know, in 3 days, 4 episodes a day, it will be over. It has an end. You cannot enjoy it infinitely after it's over. Do you ever think what the point is in watching anime? If it ends, does the experience have any meaning? And this applies to anything. Eating. Vacations. A good night's sleep. You name it. I'll give two counterarguments with respect to hedonism: 1. People have often described that they are in peace when they are in the moment. Being in the moment, experiencing the senses, does not depend on any stipulation of the future. 2. The best argument against hedonism, taking short-term pleasure as the main goal, is that longer-term planning can cause more pleasure over pain in the long run. Longer-term does not necessarily imply an infinite term. You could, for example, forego the thrill of jumping off a cliff, so that you could go home and see your wife and children for 40 more years. The 5 seconds from the wind rushing in your face deprived might be intensely pleasureful if you're a daredevil, but it sums to less than the alternative. Notice that nowhere in 40 years or 5 seconds does it require any consideration of the infinite. |
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traed said: If I'm not mistaken then, you are interested in what a people who claim to prescribe to nihilism might do, and not what they should do. Well I imagine it would be like any other depressive person with cognitive dissonance. Since their philosophy, as previously described, is bunk, and they are not bound to it in reality -- they do not understand what it entails -- they'll just go about their lives based on whatever they do understand. They might engage in hedonism, or they might mope around and play video games, write poems, spend a few years in the woods like Hawthorne, or maybe just do what other normal people do, but with an underlying edginess as someone who has hypocritically sworn off all values.@katsucats A persons actions can contradict their beliefs though and beliefs can evolve from one thing to another just from simply changing their mind and does not require a logical conclusion contrained within Nihilism. I didn't mean they would shut their mind off but just simply in not finding meaning they would become short sighted and self oriented. I do see how you came to that conclusion though because I was using a more watered down version of that in some of my thoughts that such a person wouldn't put much effort in things they do. Also see my edit I tried to clarify a bit. I imagine these are the type of people who would tell their girlfriend, "You don't know me" flippantly, to reject responsibility by rejecting any perceived external authority, or in the middle of a heated discussion fall back on, "None of that even matters!!", which, of course, makes other people realize that rational debate is impossible with someone with such low self-esteem and lack of self-cognition that he rejects the very thing that he cares about. But basically you're asking, what would a person do if he believes X but doesn't act on X? The briefest answer is (undefined). |
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traed said: I was thinking a while recently and started thinking about the effects philosophy has on people. It came to mind if someone were to adopt a nihilistic view in that everything is without meaning it would leave a person with a hole to fill that can not be filled for to seek or desire filling the hole is without meaning. However humans among other life are not purely actors of conscious beliefs of the mind. The unconscious mind that is the primal mind of the body knows what is valuable and that is pleasure. I would kinda have a problem here, why do we trust our unconscious mind to know what valuable, it knows what is pleasurable sure, but how does that makes it into a a thing worth valuing. Usually what's valuable is ether decided by an axiom or argument which is still based on other value that is axiomatic. Here I could ask so why do we should say pleasure over happiness? Usually this distinction is made in pleasure being hedonistic, short term positive feeling while happiness more long term state. While hard drugs would give us pleasure, it will also decrease our health and by that decrease our happiness. Whatever we choose one or the other is not some easy thing to be sure about, and that doesn't even take into consideration other things we should value which would make this way more complicated. It's also arguable whatever unconscious mind is prime as far as the decision making, whenever we have a though it's still has to come to our conscious mind to be materialized, that is the last barrier and might be look as most important one as that is the last point to enact on the though or let it go, this really depend on what we measure human mind activity. In seeking such pleasure with lack of meaning the consequences on other beings can hold no concern for the actor has only bodily pleasure from ones own body and a pleasure purely of the mind requires meaning to be sought after. Thus nihilism leads to Hedonistic Egoism especially in it's earlier incarnations. Nihilism is far beyond egoistic hedonism, a nihilist would say there meaning to seek bodily pleasures as well, well I nihilist would most likely not speak for the same reason as well, but in case he/she would. If someone would value anything, bodily pleasures included by definition they are not nihilistic. Is this a reasonable conclusion to make? What are philosophical outcomes of other philosophies you can think of? For me it seems that depression is quite common outcome for philosophical thinking. Though i would say that's pretty much true for any deep thinking tbh. (deep thinking sounds so corny, but i could not think of better phrase to use here) I guess I need to clarify more. When I speak of nihilism I am speaking both of Moral Nihilism and Existentialism. I am not sure what you mean here, existentialism is directly opposed to nihilism, the main question that defines existential philosophy is how to beat nihilism. When I say there is no meaning I speak not just objectively but subjectively too. So what I am saying is lets say this person adopts a nihilistic view and from this view they enjoy rather than dread. A person who dreads this will seek to find meaning. A person who enjoys this lack of meaning will make no concious effort to create a personal meaning and from the lack of personal meaning also may lack any personal morals in a stable form. This will eventually lead to just focus on the self in relation to pleasure vs pain whether or not they are consciously aware of this. Nihilism has nothing to do with ether joy or dread, it's lack of reason to enact, it's the question why for? follow by it's meaningless. What you really describing here is lack of moral character, or more precisely classical hedonism, in philosophy this is dealt with easily as this behavior is irrational/illogical it commits naturalistic fallacy a.k.a. is/ought gap. So to conclude - what you are speaking is irrational hedonism not nihilism, though i don't blame you for this as nihilism is kinda academic only topic so a lot of people don't understand it. Philosophy will get people away for those belief more then into them, if anything western consumerist culture would lead to these outcomes more then pretty much anything else. To be philosopher you can't be a nihilist, since logic and argument would be meaningless for a nihilist, once you have logic and argument you are easly equipped to deal with this type of "irrational hedonism" as it's self destructive, relies on is/ought gap and has numerous internal inconsistencies. |
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GhostOutOfShell said: I would kinda have a problem here, why do we trust our unconscious mind to know what valuable, it knows what is pleasurable sure, but how does that makes it into a a thing worth valuing. Usually what's valuable is ether decided by an axiom or argument which is still based on other value that is axiomatic. Here I could ask so why do we should say pleasure over happiness? Usually this distinction is made in pleasure being hedonistic, short term positive feeling while happiness more long term state. While hard drugs would give us pleasure, it will also decrease our health and by that decrease our happiness. Whatever we choose one or the other is not some easy thing to be sure about, and that doesn't even take into consideration other things we should value which would make this way more complicated. It's also arguable whatever unconscious mind is prime as far as the decision making, whenever we have a though it's still has to come to our conscious mind to be materialized, that is the last barrier and might be look as most important one as that is the last point to enact on the though or let it go, this really depend on what we measure human mind activity. Because of evolution most humans are ingrained with certain behaviours of survival. Why reject these impulses if there is no reason to? Not to say there is no free will but to reject the impulses would be placing value in rejecting them but to follow them no meaningful value is needed to be applied the value is without deeper thought of reason. The reasoning is no more philosophical than any animal. Nihilism is far beyond egoistic hedonism, a nihilist would say there meaning to seek bodily pleasures as well, well I nihilist would most likely not speak for the same reason as well, but in case he/she would. If someone would value anything, bodily pleasures included by definition they are not nihilistic. As I had pointed out before I am describing a very specific type of nihilism and I'm talking about the distinction between belief and actions. This is about passive nihilism more along the lines of Camus (I think) than active nihilism of Nietzsche (although he was who created this distinction). “Nihilism. It is ambiguous: A. Nihilism as a sign of increased power of the spirit: as active nihilism. B. Nihilism as decline and recession of the power of the spirit: as passive nihilism.” ~ The Will to Power, Friedrich Nietzsche For me it seems that depression is quite common outcome for philosophical thinking. Though i would say that's pretty much true for any deep thinking tbh. (deep thinking sounds so corny, but i could not think of better phrase to use here) I often find the depression preceeds a depressing philosophy although it can lead to it as you say for some. I am not sure what you mean here, existentialism is directly opposed to nihilism, the main question that defines existential philosophy is how to beat nihilism. I don't even know what I meant there because this isn't about existentialism lol Nihilism has nothing to do with ether joy or dread, it's lack of reason to enact, it's the question why for? follow by it's meaningless. What you really describing here is lack of moral character, or more precisely classical hedonism, in philosophy this is dealt with easily as this behavior is irrational/illogical it commits naturalistic fallacy a.k.a. is/ought gap. So to conclude - what you are speaking is irrational hedonism not nihilism, though i don't blame you for this as nihilism is kinda academic only topic so a lot of people don't understand it. Philosophy will get people away for those belief more then into them, if anything western consumerist culture would lead to these outcomes more then pretty much anything else. To be philosopher you can't be a nihilist, since logic and argument would be meaningless for a nihilist, once you have logic and argument you are easly equipped to deal with this type of "irrational hedonism" as it's self destructive, relies on is/ought gap and has numerous internal inconsistencies. Not that I was mixing them up but I just see some views can have this effect if taken to a more extreme level of this specific sort of nihilism. It's more a critique of passive nihilism to invalidate it as impossible to apply to reality without being impure. Why eat? It's meaningless. Why breath? It's meaningless. Why not eat? It's meaningless. Why not breath? It's meaningless. You can't both not do and not not do at the same time. This is impossible. So a passive nihilist will sooner be dead from not knowing how to act or not act or simply will while clinging to the belief they are a nihilist while doing things that aren't in the nihilism of Camus in this case it would be hedonistic egoism. I'm not sure if I am totally wrong or if it's just hard for people to understand what I am saying because it's not something they will find in a philosophy class because it's a critique I created. |
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