| The anime was overall very moving and a big improvement over the average first season but I think the ending was cheap. There was really no reason to somehow bring Nagisa back. I know its explained via the light orbs but it doesn't make it any less cheap. Tomoya moved on and received great development. It should have ended when he became a good dad to Ushio imho. The scene in the field was perfect. Anyone agree? Or why do you think it fits? |
Aardwolf94Jan 21, 2018 8:47 PM
Aardwolf94 said: The anime was overall very moving and a big improvement over the average first season but I think the ending was cheap. There was really no reason to somehow bring Nagisa back. I know its explained via the light orbs but it doesn't make it any less cheap. Tomoya moved on and received great development. It should have ended when he became a good dad to Ushio imho. The scene in the field was perfect. Anyone agree? Or why do you think it fits? The ending is better understood in the context of the visual novel. The light orbs Tomoya collected over the course of the anime are energy released by the town during highly emotional times. He collected these balls of energy over the course of several lifetimes. Using the energy to rewind time over and over until he had collected enough of them to not only rewind time but to keep Nagisa and Ushio from dying. This is also why the stories showing Tomoya marrying Tomoyo and Kyou actually happened in the visual novel as he did not always end up with Nagisa in each timeline. |
| Nope. It made perfect sense in the context of the story. |
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| I agree with you. I think the story would have been better without any supernatural elements. |
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| if you don't like Nagisa one could see it as cheap I guess but if you value proper build up and a fitting conclusion of what a show sets up from the start then no |
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| It's adaptation of the vn, and saving Nagisa was basically the whole point of completing different routes and gathering lights... so nope, I don't mind it. I can understand how for some people it might be cheap, but there are enough dramatc, tragic endings of series/movies already, I'm glad to see characters happy and peaceful at the end for once. |
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AmMar-Sama said: Yeah I know. I was just doing a light joke I don't think this has anything to do with disliking Nagisa (or not). AmMar-Sama said: The act of bringing someone back isn't disrespectful though. The foreshadowing makes it good since its not a ass pull which is randomly inserted into the plot People die when they are killed, and disrespecting that is always bad - no matter how much 'build up' you put in. In fact, all the foreshadowing just makes everything worse. AmMar-Sama said: Why not? Everything Tomoya went through he still went through and its thanks to that he managed to pull a miracle because his family meant just that much to him. He loved them so much he even in death did everything to be with those he loves which shows how important they truly were to him I mean, why spend a huge amount of time showing the consequences of someone's death and how their family deals with it, only to easily bring them back later..? I want my few tears and sympathy for Tomoya back. |
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| The build up was there from the beginning, I won't say the story that was designed from the beginning is cheap ... I understand your point though, I also one of people who don't believe in supernatural shit, I prefer realistic story ... But still the anime is really good, even I can learn many things from it .. |
"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare. But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !" |
AmMar-Sama said: Except it isn't Deknijff said: Except it is. Bringing a person back from the *dead* by pushing the reset button with no repercussions whatsoever will always be a dumb move.The act of bringing someone back isn't disrespectful though. The foreshadowing makes it good since its not a ass pull which is randomly inserted into the plot Bringing her back did have repercussions though. It changed the future and let Tomoya live happily with the girl he loved with them raising their daughter together which they love AmMar-Sama said: Well I'm sorry you feel your time was wasted then considering its a almost 50 episodes long series. I just feel like my time was wasted; that's why I said the "foreshadowing" makes things worse. The problem here is that I despise the concept at its very core, so even though I read the VN where they took a while to foreshadow/explain stuff, I was ironically disgusted a lot more. AmMar-Sama said: Doesn't make anything a lie. The characters didn't fake the emotions they had and they were all really how they felt. Deknijff said: Because it transforms the earlier emotions to a lie? All that character development was thrown out the window. Why not? Everything Tomoya went through he still went through and its thanks to that he managed to pull a miracle because his family meant just that much to him. He loved them so much he even in death did everything to be with those he loves which shows how important they truly were to him Nope. Tomoya said that he vaguely recalls the events and considers them a bad dream, so you are straight up wrong. Even if you were 100% correct, there is a huge difference between experiencing loss first-hand (while constantly dealing with its direct consequences) and feeling like it was all a nightmare-like experience, and I don't think I need to explain why. The fact he remembers it proves he went through it all though so how am I wrong. If it didn't really happen he would have no recollection of what happened at all since it never happened. Now if he considers it a horrible dream he doesn't want to experience that doesn't really matter AmMar-Sama said: Id feel confused because from what I remember of FMA Brotherhood God didn't really feel like being nice to anyone How would you feel if, say, in the final episode of FMA, God decides to help the Elric Brothers by fixing their bodies and resurrecting Trisha because the kids "love their mommy very much" and they were good people all year..? Ugh; the mere thought makes me sick. AmMar-Sama said: Its not bullshit if its well defined and works based off the rules in the universe that the world takes place in for the show There are plenty of ways to get across how deeply someone cares about his family. Relying on stupid magic bullshit that reboots everything perfectly is the worst way to do it. |
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| I guess people just didn't pay attention to the story. |
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AmMar-Sama said: Except it isn't Deknijff said: Except it is. Except it isn't Bringing her back did have repercussions though. It changed the future and let Tomoya live happily with the girl he loved with them raising their daughter together which they love repercussion riːpəˈkʌʃ(ə)n noun plural noun: repercussions 1. an unintended consequence of an event or action, especially an unwelcome one. hmmm The definition I saw online didn't include the unwelcomed part. But if thats apart of it ok yeah fair point the show didn't have any negative impact over Nagisa coming back. But bringing someone back doesn't need to have negative impacts. It just needs to be acknowledged and have its proper impact on the world which makes sense in the series itself AmMar-Sama said: Oh I'm wrong you say Deknijff said: Maybe not a literal 'lie', but it still feels like a mere dream (not just to him, but to me as well), so no, it does matter a lot and cheapens everything. Doesn't make anything a lie. The characters didn't fake the emotions they had and they were all really how they felt. The fact he remembers it proves he went through it all though so how am I wrong. If it didn't really happen he would have no recollection of what happened at all since it never happened. Now if he considers it a horrible dream he doesn't want to experience that doesn't really matter Yeah, his feelings in that world were "genuine", but reality is permanent and has substantial weight - while nightmares don't. I already went over this. You are wrong and your argument falls apart because Tomoya doesn't even remember the previous experiences properly. That's how.  from what I can tell your argument boils down to ”It feels fake/like a dream because the past and future was changed and Tomoya can't remember his original journey fully so therefore its not real” While its an objective fact that its all real since it has to all happen to reach that point of change in the series |
DeknijffJan 24, 2018 6:10 AM
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| Not at all, the whole series was building that thing up. |
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AmMar-Sama said: But it isn't But it is ;__;  AmMar-Sama said: its not any of that due to the progression of the show It does, because otherwise the act will feel cheap, forced, and just shits on everything that came before. What universal force are you referring to then that will always cause negative impact simply because a character is brought back from the dead? AmMar-Sama said: I can't find the part where I said he remembers everything he went through. I can find the part where I say he experienced everything which is what caused everything to happen in the end.Deknijff said: Well, yeah. You said he remembers everything, and that's incorrect.Oh I'm wrong you say AmMar-Sama said: what is your point then?Deknijff said: You tweaked things a bit, but yes. That's pretty much what the argument boils down to.from what I can tell your argument boils down to ”It feels fake/like a dream because the past and future was changed and Tomoya can't remember his original journey fully so therefore its not real” While its an objective fact that its all real since it has to all happen to reach that point of change in the series. I never said that those events didn't actually happen. It doesn't even matter if they were real or not; that isn't my point |
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| Yeah, but a lot of other series did that stuff like that too. Making the characters have a happy ending just for the sake of it. Without the orbs stuff the ending could have been much better, but people prefer happy stuff over sad so that it's. |
HeimurJan 24, 2018 11:35 AM
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AmMar-Sama said: Again: Death is death. You shouldn't be able to fix it. If you do, the story automatically turns into a pile of garbage Deknijff said: What universal force are you referring to then that will always cause negative impact simply because a character is brought back from the dead? AmMar-Sama said: Why is it not ok and rubbish then?It's not realistic. Yeah, I know Clannad is a fictional story with fantastical elements, but bringing a dead person back is still a big no-no. The foreshadowing, build-up and "progression" won't make that rubbish okay. Its realistic based on the universe of the series which has its own rules and it acted based off those rules. Just like how FMA and HXH isn't realistic in our universe but realistic based off its established universe rules that they have set up AmMar-Sama said: Yeah its not because Im finding the mindset of bringing someone back from the dead =inherently shitty writing to be pretty close minded Deknijff said: I explained myself several times; what I've been repeating is just not entering your head for some reason.what is your point then? |
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AmMar-Sama said: ok so yeah its just a preference and holds no objective ground then and therefore isn't a actual critic one can take seriously about the showIt's just something I happen to dislike a lot, and I believe I made that clear. There is no "universal force" or anything of the sort. AmMar-Sama said: Because it can take effort to even be able to press that reset button. Changing time doesn't mean actions are without merit or value as without those actions one can't change time for the better or worse to begin withBecause if it's possible to push the reset button, why care about anything at all? AmMar-Sama said: The Dragon Balls aren't a problem of themselves really but more so the fault of as the show goes on it basically just takes no effort to even find the balls Yeah, and the dragon balls are also part of the rules in a certain universe. Doesn't mean it's a good mechanic to use. AmMar-Sama said: Because you can have that still despite time travelI want stakes & consequences in my Chinese cartoons, how is that close-minded exactly? AmMar-Sama said: lol manipulative garbage & cheap tearsHxH and FMA have both of these, so don't compare them to this manipulative garbage which lives off cheap tears.  |
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| Guys, no one was brought back to life at any moment in the series. lol The girl in the Illusionary World/Ushio used all the light orbs she collected to move Tomoya to another reality where Nagisa survived and Ushio will probably be fine, the version where they died and he "died" shortly after Ushio is still there. It was literally stated in the series that multiple realities besides the one we all know exist, the wish-granting power of the light orbs was also an established plot point. Whether you like it or not, or if you find it to be a copout from some tragic ending you wanted Clannad to have, is irrelevant. |
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| @AmMar-Sama You're not going to win the argument. Just stop. |
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AmMar-Sama said: and you expect to be taken seriously when you have no valid point as to why something is garbage huh? Deknijff said: So this is what you come up with at the end? Lol. ok so yeah its just a preference and holds no objective ground then and therefore isn't a actual critic one can take seriously about the show "Duh! That's just your opinion, which isn't even OBJECTIVE, so it's not worth listening to." ^ You expect others to take you seriously with that attitude, right? I'm sure you do.  AmMar-Sama said: I guess you didn't really pay attention then if you don't think Tomoya went through any hardship to get where he got to.Deknijff said: Because it can take effort to even be able to press that reset button. Changing time doesn't mean actions are without merit or value as without those actions one can't change time for the better or worse to begin with Deknijff said: That's rubbish. Because you can have that still despite time travel Unlike Steins;Gate, Re:zero, etc., we have no focus on time/dimension travel here. We've never actually seen the "effort" which was put into resetting things.  AmMar-Sama said: You know its kind of funny you even bring this up because I can't recall anyone in this thread saying "B-but it was foreshadowed and Tomoya is a good person who helped a lot of people, and he was sad, so he deserved a happy ending, and it also gave me muh FEELZ!" Yeah, no. Just no. But my FUCKING FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Except you who's basing his critic on personal preference which is based off your own feelings AmMar-Sama said: Considering how baseless your critic has been so far its probably just as worthless as what you've already said Yep, 'manipulative garbage' is the best way to describe this thing. The ending isn't the only problem; there are many more. That's another story for another day, though. |
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Mirai said: I agree with you. I think the story would have been better without any supernatural elements. They were just cheap and unnecessary. Remove the silly dragonballs and the series only improves. The series would have ended perfectly when Tomoya became a good father to Ushio Its not an asspull because the whole thing does have build up but its still bad storytelling |
Aardwolf94Feb 10, 2018 10:23 PM
| In terms of emotional logic it's not perfect, but the thematic and character work it does (especially for Ushio) justifies it as far as I'm concerned. |
| My anime blog Latest Post: The Zero Requiem (Analysis of the Ending of Code Geass) |
| No, then showing the other world to the viewer would be meaningless. Honestly, the whole show would of been pointless if it ended with the death of Nagisa. |
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| I kind of agree but I can't say I wasn't happy to see a happy ending. The ending also made sense, though could have been explained better. I can see how it might make people feel like the great developments got scrapped in favour of a happy ending. It didn't affect my overall enjoyment of the series personally since the themes/messages of the show stayed with me regardless of the ending. I think if there ever was a version with the supernatural elements removed, I'd like it at least as much as the real one since it was those developments in episodes 16-19 that made this show for me. It'd also get less criticism then for sure. |
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AmMar-Sama said: Except it is. Bringing a person back from the *dead* by pushing the reset button with no repercussions whatsoever will always be a dumb move. Not when there is a good reason for it being able to be done, and especially not here, where THE WHOLE STORY basically revolves around making it happen in the first place. And no, it's no dumber than the forced tragedy in series and endings that we get all the time. Last second, usually pointless in-story and sometimes even lacking in any sense. Which 99% of the time is there for no other reason than last minute attempts at the appearance of (fake) emotional depth and epicness. (toy with emotions) Yet people never seem to have a problem with that. Endings like this are downright refreshing after having to wade through all the cliche edgelordism, grimdark crap and "realism" tropes that we have today with all but a few types of anime/manga/games.. AmMar-Sama said: I just feel like my time was wasted; that's why I said the "foreshadowing" makes things worse. The problem here is that I despise the concept at its very core, so even though I read the VN where they took a while to foreshadow/explain stuff, I was ironically disgusted a lot more. How was it wasted? I think the problem here is some people are unable to understand the nature of the story itself. Unable to understand that everything that happened ONLY happened because of the events of said "wasted" time! Don't think of it as a reset (which it wasn't), things could never have changed with a simple reset. What happened was not only because of everything that came before it, but also sort of a continuation of said events. (as again, it could never of happened if the other stuff didn't) AmMar-Sama said: Deknijff said: Why not? Everything Tomoya went through he still went through and its thanks to that he managed to pull a miracle because his family meant just that much to him. He loved them so much he even in death did everything to be with those he loves which shows how important they truly were to him Because it transforms the earlier emotions to a lie? All that character development was thrown out the window. *See above! ^ How does it make them a "lie" exactly? Those are what he felt and thought.. If things happened as they did. Think of it like a "what if" looking into his true nature, even in bad times. The "character development" you're talking about was never meant to be his in the first place.. It wasn't even thrown out the window anyway.. as again, he NEVER would have gotten this much more fitting ending, if it wasn't for everything that happened before. Also.. I don't think that some understand that the the way things started out was way too dark to ever have been an ending.. The only reason things went that way was because of how the story was going to go.. All that "character development" really would have went out the window if it wasn't for the ending we got.. as much of what happened would have no doubt been different. The people not understanding this ending are thinking of things way too linearly. They mistakenly believe that because things wont happen as they did the first time, it means that it was all meaningless or something. AmMar-Sama said: How would you feel if, say, in the final episode of FMA, God decides to help the Elric Brothers by fixing their bodies and resurrecting Trisha because the kids "love their mommy very much" and they were good people all year..? Ugh; the mere thought makes me sick. *thinks back over the nature of the series, how it's world worked and the things that happened/were possible* I'd have no problem what so ever with that happening at the end if it's what the writer wanted. Even if for no other reason than it simply being part of the fictional/fantasy story i was being told. The story that the writer wrote! No other reason needed to accept it than that really. It would have made an already great ending all the better... after everything they've been through. AmMar-Sama said: There are plenty of ways to get across how deeply someone cares about his family. Relying on stupid magic bullshit that reboots everything perfectly is the worst way to do it. Yup, and showing us just how much by having his family back is one of the cutest and best ways possible. "Worst way to do it" is pretty subjective.. I'd call the tired old cliche edgelord/grimdark way the worst personally.. Yet it's how most stories seem to go these days when dealing with this kind of thing. As for the people whining about the supernatural elements being in the story.. Go watch the news or something.. Everything doesn't need to be about realism and real world logic.. This is a big part of what is killing fiction and fantasy today.. (especially in the west) |
| It was Probably explained better in the LN |
  愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
AmMar-Sama said: Again: Death is death. You shouldn't be able to fix it. If you do, the story automatically turns into a pile of garbage. We could stay here and talk about how much the ending was foreshadowed all day, but that's a complete waste of time which hardly changes my view on the topic. They should've either removed the supernatural aspect entirely, or use it in a different way. Dear god... -_-' Say it with me... F I C T I O N ! Death is truly not death, as we know it, in fiction. And i'm not only talking about bringing back the dead.. just go play Final Fantasy X or dark souls or any of the many anime, manga and game series which not only allow revivals, but have totally different rules and mechanics about death. *Starts watching fictional supernatural series which is clearly heading for a supernatural ending from the start, then proceeds to pompously bitch, whine and bemoan about said supernatural elements being in the series at the end* ........facepalm |
| Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this too. To be honest I liked the supernatural aspects of After Story but, I'm not sure... I felt everything was solved very quickly and going back in time was kind of an "easy" solution but whatever, at least Tomoya is happy. |
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