| First of all, if you have Fate related questions, try to use one of these threads first: FAQ: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1496389 Q&A: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1292653 Side info, we have a Servant Status Screens thread. SPOILERS ALL means this thread is for those who wish to talk about the anime and speculate or compare it to the VN, Fate/Zero or other FSN UBW and HF related works. You don't need to tag anything here, so for those who only have anime knowledge, be warned: We will talk about events of a ten year old Visual Novel that was completely translated six years ago. There are still rules that apply to the thread: - Do not spam in this thread. This isn't a chat thread or your twitter. - No piracy talk. - Trolling/baiting will not be tolerated. - Negative and differing opinions are of course welcome, but watch your language. - No waifu/shipping wars here. We have other threads for this. - That should be obvious, but this is a FSN discussion thread. If it doesn't have anything to do with FSN, don't talk about it here. That includes other Type-Moon works, if they are not related to FSN UBW. - For more rules/information see also the Anime Series Episode Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines. Please use the spoiler tags if you post a few pictures. Tag large pics in general too, please. Please use the report function to contact the mods if the derails get out of hand or if someone here is overly rude and/or starts insulting others or breaks the rules otherwise. >:) |
I am the Priest of my church Yuetsu is my body, and wine is my blood I have trolled over a thousand users Unknown to sympathy, nor known to apathy Withstood Shirou to eat Mapo Tofu Yet, my question will never be answered So as I rejoice, Unlimited Kirei Works! |
| Illya is best girl. |
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| Saber is best character |
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| delete this thread |
Insertanamehere said: delete this thread Greetings Insertapriesthere, What seems to be the problem? |
I am the Priest of my church Yuetsu is my body, and wine is my blood I have trolled over a thousand users Unknown to sympathy, nor known to apathy Withstood Shirou to eat Mapo Tofu Yet, my question will never be answered So as I rejoice, Unlimited Kirei Works! |
| Saber Best Treasure |
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| Here is something I posted elsewhere that I'm curious about. Mickdrew said: I'm just curious how they're gonna handle the prologue/first 3 days with Shirou. It would be cool if they packaged the first two 50 minute episodes of UBW together and added new/altered scenes to Shirou's half for Heaven's Feel. I'm probably just dreaming, tho. |
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SherouOfJustice said: Illya is best girl. you mate, are a good guy. Mickdrew said: Here is something I posted elsewhere that I'm curious about. Mickdrew said: I'm just curious how they're gonna handle the prologue/first 3 days with Shirou. It would be cool if they packaged the first two 50 minute episodes of UBW together and added new/altered scenes to Shirou's half for Heaven's Feel. I'm probably just dreaming, tho. Eh, i really think they will skip alot, do a summary, and only show the differences and the stuff leading to them so it won't feel out of nowhere. They really don't have to show that stuff throughly for a 2nd time. Especially with only 3 Movies. |
| pretty sure we're not allowed to have threads like these anymore breh..... Mickdrew said: with the existence of UBW i would think they would only do a rough summary up until Archer nearly get bisected seeing how this is were UBW branches off and while there is no fate route. maybe speeds a little bit more until shirou takes sakura home and meets Zoukin before going to a more regulated paceHere is something I posted elsewhere that I'm curious about. Mickdrew said: I'm just curious how they're gonna handle the prologue/first 3 days with Shirou. It would be cool if they packaged the first two 50 minute episodes of UBW together and added new/altered scenes to Shirou's half for Heaven's Feel. I'm probably just dreaming, tho. |
| Rin's episode, the prologue, needs no change at all. To me it would he logical if they just aired it on tv a week before the movie is out and just replace the [Unlimited Blade Works] part of the title with [Heaven's Feel]. For Shirou's first 3 days,or episode 1 of UBW, the have to change all of his choices to ones that raise Sakura flags.But aside from that it is exactly the same as UBW and Fate. So for me, both POVs of the first 3 days would be fine as tv specials and the first movie should start with a somewhat altered version of the Church scene. This saves about 2 hours of content. |
| ^Yea, maybe we get some kind of "common route OVA". I wonder though if Berserker stomping Saber would happen in that OVA or if they'd stop, as you suggested, in the church scene. |
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| Nah, I dont think they would go beyond the Church scene IF they made it like that. |
astroprogs said: The "Femme Fatale" scene was the moment my hatred for Sakura was on full throttle. I loved it. She's a lot better when she's honest but alas that is only a half of her character. The better half of her in HF. Her character, however, is supposed to lie in her always suppressing this part of herself in order to co-exist with others. Just how she was supposed to come to understand that her wish to live and be normal isn't compatible with reality, how it brought an outcome that might destroy everything including what she loves as a result of which she would sacrifice herself for the sake of something she wanted to protect more than her life. Which rounds it out nicely but in HF it wasn't well done and later part just downright cut. Her goodness is supposed to come from never being rewarded for any of her efforts that she does for the sake of her senpai, like the little mermaid. Even 'saving' her was supposed to be impossible. The 'rule breaker' really is a rule breaker just like archer class is made out of archers. In HF Shirou tires to bring about a miracle of freeing her from her fate in exchange for his and other people's lives ending in Sakura getting a life free of bounds but being responsible for a lot of deaths including what she loved and wanted to protect. She was never supposed to have a happy ending like in HF true. That's Nasu cheating if anything. Like in certain other work of his by making more than one Sakura... None of FSN characters are completely good or decent people anyway. That's what makes them interesting. astroprogs said: Avenger isn't the grail, but is the only conscious part stirring in the grail allowing the aimless ocean to have a purpose and a direction. I reread a bit of ataraxia's end and I have to say he is. More like he became(transformed into?) one after forming a contract with Bazzet. The original Einzbern's greater grail was destroyed by that time so he had no way of using it. The Avenger(Shirou) we are playing as is a part of the bigger Avenger that is the vitrage grail. And vitrage grail at that point already has nothing to do with the original greater grail or vessels Illya/Sakura. He is Avenger himself or his full form. astroprogs said: Hmmm. Can't remember that TBH and it's good if t's there, but it seems so miniscule to leave an impact compared to Shirou's reactions to Rin. To each their own as I love the relationship between Shirou and Rin but I never saw them as something more than friends with privileges. Rin has a lot of screen time as a co-protagonist who was supposed to be an actual protagonist alongside Shirou initially so it's no surprise that their relationship is appealing and actually well done comparing to the rest. They have great dynamics but that's mostly only when they are tsundere for each other. Rin changes her attitude in romance to full on dere mode eventually and I'm not fond of it even if it's a good character development for her. I think they work best as Rin-Archer duo but that's just me. Relationship with Saber wasn't any good until maybe HF and Ataraxia already where she isn't a love interest really. Sakura was barely there and their relationship while having a nice family feeling to it was thrown into worser position than with Saber because of ero. It being way too fixated on sex ruined everything it was supposed to convey. Shirou's relationship with every heroine is supposed to be special and different from one another as all of them are very important in their own way but when two of three romances end up being bad... In the end only Rin had a well written relationship with him that lasted throughout all routes so it's not surprising that people prefer her but some forget that her character doesn't stand in one place and relationship kind of changes along with it. CherryLover said: HF's chief focus is and always will be Shirou's romance with Sakura and how that affects his psyche in the context of the Holy Grail War. And the problem with it is Sakura being almost non-existent prior to HF and their relationship ends up 'feeling' out of nowhere. Even if for Shirou in idea she's very important(more so than Saber if we trust Nasu's words) it doesn't have any build up to it so it ends up feeling out of place. What you are saying isn't wrong in concept but the way it was written and how readers ended up experiencing is what's more important. As a result it looks forced and people switch to characters they already know and whose arcs were done well in HF(Kirei, Illya, Rin). Sakura and her relationship with Shirou ends up being dismissed in their eyes due to bad writing and lack of set up. The only ones to blame here aren't people for not understanding but Nasu cutting down Illya's route and bad writing and the people who didn't point that out to him. The problem also lies in Nasu writing other characters and their relationships for a while(4 years by then?) prior to HF so their HF versions are much more polished and dynamic than in previous routes while Sakura had barely any which makes her and her relationship with Shirou really inferior to others as Nasu himself prior to HF had only a vague concept of what it was supposed to be like. Shirou and Sakura have maybe two-three good scenes together in HF with others being... not so much, while other characters have more consistent and well done dynamics. Even scenes with Rin on rooftop and them talking about each other, her version of high jump or Saber's overly cute behaviour and the oath under the starry sky were so good comparing to most of the things from prior routes despite being seemingly insignificant. Or all of the scenes with Illya and Kirei. So it's not just the lack of Illya's route and Sakura's position in HF, it's lack of their relationship and her character being developed beyond concept on Nasu's part. CherryLover said: Again, this is what I just can't comprehend. How can not sympathize with Sakura, much less hate her? How many other characters act in "irrational" ways but are forgiven, while Sakura is always hated? Bad writing. Nasu reflected on it in CCC but it doesn't fix HF itself. Just because I appreciate what Nasu was trying to do with her character it doesn't meant that reality ended up being that way. She's kind of waifu like Casko but with more sadistic and violent nature which always brings a disaster on people she loves and tries to protect +bonus edgy backstory(HF) in order to fuel that side of hers to absolute villian tier. CherryLover said: As I stated above, she was put into a situation she couldn't control, so anything she committed as a result of that situation was not and never will be her fault. There is no responsibility to be borne. She is still responsible for it. It was her wish and refusal to die were what made it that way even if she meant no ill will. That's the point. Let's take an example... astroprogs said: If that is true, why did we get those long scenes of Shirou talking to Illya and discovering a lot of things about her and Kiritsugu that adds a lot to their relatonship, but adds absolutely nothing to Shirou and Sakura's relationship or any info about the grail? I think CherryLover means that in the end even that is a fuel for Shirou's character development where he throws away his ideals and everything in Sakura's favor. Also I believe Illya, as I said before, was supposed to show Shirou that by choosing ideals of his he does the same thing as Kiritsugu did to her. Illya is a walking example of why 'seigi no mikata' isn't supposed to have any ties with anyone if he plans on going down that path but can he really do that? Miura butchered Nasu's script but Archer's backstory(Shirou's future in 10 years) was supposed to have that one moment where Archer had to kill a kid he got so attached to(one of those we saw in the anime) after what he became bitter and cynical(there was stuff prior to that but that was the last bit I guess). It was supposed to give a good basis for the moment where Archer asks him whether he's ready to take the path of machine in order to fulfill his promise to Kiritsugu. The entire UBW is centered around Rin trying to understand Shirou and changing her attitude(to dere) in order to dedicate her life or at least a portion of it to to help him as she can't help but want to reward someone who was never rewarded or understood his entire life. She can't save him on this path and she doesn't really want to fix him but she provides him with great love and support on her side. If Shirou wishes to go for his ideals despite anything like in UBW - Rin is the best waifu he could ever ask for. Even if they likely part eventually(I don't think he would want to drag her into his suicide adventures), Shirou will always know that there is someone who supports and understands him which gives him strength to move farther then Archer did and not lose hope. In case of HF it's Kiritsugu and Illya. In Illya's route Shirou would probably be trying to be Illya's 'Kiritsugu' as he promised to him to do things Kiritsugu could not in his place by becoming him. While in HF he already plays her older brother and says he can't be Kiritsugu for her as they are different people but he still wants her around as himself and Kiritsugu's son. The thing is that Shirou already has a family he always wanted and someone he wants to protect on his hands but tries to ignore it because of his promise to Kerry and a belief that he can only be happy if he literally becomes him and saves someone just like Kerry did. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 6:08 AM
| > She's a lot better when she's honest That's not being honest.That's having her hate amplified by AM.In other words she isnt in her right mind. >She was never supposed to have a happy ending like in HF true. That's Nasu cheating if anything. Dont start with that karma shit.There are tons of characters that karma never came for.Even if some bad guys die they achieve some sort of catharsis which is more salvation than punishment. Zouken for example.Gil de Rais.Kiritsugu. >As a result it looks forced and people switch to characters they already know.... I would like to know the reason why Shirou falls in love with Rin instead of Saber in UBW even tho nothing was changed.If his reason for loving Saber is having a threesome with Rin, then I cant call that good writing. And Sakura does have build up in the first days where Shirou is forcing himself to think of her as his friend's little sister. >Their relationship being way too fixated on sex ruined everything it was supposed to convey. Love and both being dependent to the other?This makes no sense. >The right decision for her was to die and she didn't do it. Yes because everyone is brave enough to just drop dead .Especially people that found soem hope in their miserable life. >Miura butchered Nasu's script but Archer's backstory(Shirou's future in 10 years) was supposed to have that one moment where Archer had to kill one of those kids he got so attached to(one of those we saw in the anime) after what he became bitter and cynical(there was stuff prior to that but that was the last bit I guess). It was supposed to give a good basis for the moment where Archer asks him whether he's ready to take the path of machine in order to fulfill his promise to Kiritsugu. Source on that?This is the first time I heard about it. >after what he became bitter and cynical According to everything before ufoubw, Archer was fine with everything during is life.He started rejecting his ideals after he became a CG.So even if that script does exist, you are blaming Miura for staying true to the VN. >The entire UBW is centered around Rin Oh hell no.It is true that Rin tries to understand Shirou and help him but in no way does UBW center around her. Fai's old account?? |
ssjokg said: Fai's old account?? Fai did such a thing in youtube too and acted as 2 people (AFAIK later on even as 3) to "enhance" his argument. You just cannot take that guy seriously. |
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Wolfran said: astroprogs said: The "Femme Fatale" scene was the moment my hatred for Sakura was on full throttle. I loved it. She's a lot better when she's honest like that but alas that is only a half of her character. The better half of her in HF. Her character, however, is supposed to lie in her always suppressing this part of herself in order to co-exist with others. Just how she was supposed to come to understand that her wish to live and be normal isn't compatible with reality, how it brought an outcome that might destroy everything including what she loves as a result of which she would sacrifice herself for the sake of something she wanted to protect more than her life. Which rounds it out nicely but in HF it wasn't well done and later part just downright cut. Her goodness is supposed to come from never being rewarded for any of her efforts that she does for the sake of her senpai, like the little mermaid. Even 'saving' her was supposed to be impossible. The 'rule breaker' really is a rule breaker just like archer class is made out of archers. In HF Shirou tires to bring about a miracle of freeing her from her fate in exchange for his and other people's lives ending in Sakura getting a life free of bounds but being responsible for a lot of deaths including what she loved and wanted to protect. She was never supposed to have a happy ending like in HF true. That's Nasu cheating if anything. Like in certain other work of his by making more than one Sakura... None of FSN characters are completely good or decent people anyway. That's what makes them interesting. But that's the thing. Sakura is supposed to make us feel for her despite all the horrible things she's doing. I can't feel for her if she's going all Shinji under AM's influence. Once again i draw a comparison to Fujino. The moment when Shiki told her that she's enjoying killing people and that she had this smile all the time she was being handled by Shiki, you were forced as a viewer to re-think your view on her, but when Shiki decided not to kill her because at the last second Shiki saw something in her that made her more of a victim and less of a psychotic killer. Sakura stopped being that when she started flaunting her murder and rape in front of Shirou, making it very hard for the reader to still sympathize with her. At this point, to me, she stopped being someone i want to save and became someone i just have to kill. Shirou's "You've gone too far, Sakura, for me to be able to save you" voices that line of thought perfectly. Wolfran said: astroprogs said: Avenger isn't the grail, but is the only conscious part stirring in the grail allowing the aimless ocean to have a purpose and a direction. I reread a bit of ataraxia's end and I have to say he is. More like he became(transformed into?) one after forming a contract with Bazzet. The original Einzbern's greater grail was destroyed by that time so he had no way of using it. The Avenger(Shirou) we are playing as is a part of the bigger Avenger that is the vitrage grail. And vitrage grail at that point already has nothing to do with the original greater grail or vessels Illya/Sakura. He is Avenger himself or his full form. "The Heaven's Cup might be something along the lines of that demon's contract." It's not that Avenger was a weak grail in HA or that he has the ability to invoke HF as his own ability, it was the grail that he's in, controlling and directing, was very weak after being destroyed and on its last leg by the start of HA, so he can't make it do the grand miracles the fully powered greater grail should be able to do. Avenger is a seperate entity from the grail and he can't use HF on his own. He needs the grail's power to grant him HF through a wish. It just happens that AM is an accumulation of wishes, so the grail became the tool that it is to grant this wish. Wolfran said: astroprogs said: Hmmm. Can't remember that TBH and it's good if t's there, but it seems so miniscule to leave an impact compared to Shirou's reactions to Rin. To each their own as I love the relationship between Shirou and Rin but I never saw them as something more than friends with privileges. Rin has a lot of screen time as a co-protagonist who was supposed to be an actual protagonist alongside Shirou initially so it's no surprise that their relationship is appealing and actually well done comparing to the rest. They have great dynamics but that's mostly only when they are tsundere for each other. Rin changes her attitude in romance to full on dere mode eventually because and I'm not fond of it even if it's a good character development for her. I think they work best as Rin-Archer duo but that's just me. Relationship with Saber wasn't any good until maybe HF and Ataraxia already where she isn't a love interest really. Sakura was barely there and their relationship while having a nice family feeling to it was thrown into worser position than with Saber because of ero. Their relationship being way too fixated on sex ruined everything it was supposed to convey. Shirou's relationship with every heroine is supposed to be special and different from one another as all of them are very important in their own way but when two of three romances end up being bad... In the end only Rin had a well written relationship with him that lasted throughout all routes so it's not surprising that people prefer her but some forget that her character doesn't stand in one place and relationship kind of changes along with it. I agree with all of this, with the exception of the Rin part. Saber REALLY doesn't work as a love interest and Sakura was almost non-existant prior to HF. Wolfran said: astroprogs said: If that is true, why did we get those long scenes of Shirou talking to Illya and discovering a lot of things about her and Kiritsugu that adds a lot to their relatonship, but adds absolutely nothing to Shirou and Sakura's relationship or any info about the grail? I think CherryLover means that in the end even that is a fuel for Shirou's character development where he throws away his ideals and everything in Sakura's favor. Also I believe Illya, as I said before, was supposed to show Shirou that by choosing ideals of his he does the same thing as Kiritsugu did to her. Illya is a walking example of why 'seigi no mikata' isn't supposed to have any ties with anyone if he plans on going down that path but can he really do that? Miura butchered Nasu's script but Archer's backstory(Shirou's future in 10 years) was supposed to have that one moment where Archer had to kill one of those kids he got so attached to(one of those we saw in the anime) after what he became bitter and cynical(there was stuff prior to that but that was the last bit I guess). It was supposed to give a good basis for the moment where Archer asks him whether he's ready to take the path of machine in order to fulfill his promise to Kiritsugu. The entire UBW is centered around Rin trying to understand Shirou and changing her attitude(to dere) in order to dedicate her life or at least a portion of it to to help him as she can't help but want to reward someone who was never rewarded or understood his entire life. She can't save him on this path and she doesn't really want to fix him but she provides him with great love and support on her side. If Shirou wishes to go for his ideals despite anything like in UBW - Rin is the best waifu he could ever ask for. Even if they likely part eventually(I don't think he would want to drag her into his suicide adventures), Shirou will always know that there is someone who supports and understands him which gives him strength to move farther then Archer did and not lose hope. In case of HF it's Kiritsugu and Illya. In Illya's route Shirou would probably be trying to become 'Kiritsugu' as he promised to him to do things Kiritsugu could not in his place. While in HF he already plays her older brother and says he can't be Kiritsugu for her as they are different people but he still wants her around as himself and Kiritsugu's son. The thing is that Shirou already has a family he always wanted and someone he wants to protect on his hands but tries to ignore it because of his promise to Kerry and a belief that he can only be happy if he literally becomes him and saves someone just like that. I never denied that Sakura is the main pushing force for Shirou to abandon his ideals, though. I'm saying that the route had more story elements pushing the plot to the direction it took. The relationship is in the center of the route, but it's not all there's to it. About Illya, we didn't really need her to point that out to Shirou. Kirei telling us about Kiritsugu's decision and the 'Superhero' ending where he goes to, supposedly, murder everyone were more than enough to get that message across. Illya's scenes are more personal. Her relationship with Shirou was independent from Shirou's struggle with his ideals. She didn't convince him of anything nor did he change her ideals for her or as result of something she said or did. Shirou just wanted to protect Sakura because he loved her, that's all there was to it. Who knows how Illya's route would've went, but one thing is for sure, it'd have had something in common with Kagetsu Tohya :p Kidding aside, i'd have really liked to see this route, not just for Illya, but for Sella and Liz as well. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 6:34 AM
ssjokg said: That's not being honest.That's having her hate amplified by AM.In other words she isnt in her right mind. She is honest there for the first time in her life. There are parts where she plays a villain to make it easier for Rin/Shirou to kill her(and that is a selfish wish of hers) but not all of it is an act. AM just unleashes that side of hers as usually she keeps everything in herself. As a result she uses her villainous act also as an excuse to get off. Her misfortune in was meeting Shirou who gave her self-awareness and a reason to live. He gave a rise to it by treating her as a human in a way. Which is what Zokuen was hoping for. ssjokg said: Dont start with that karma shit.There are tons of characters that karma never came for.Even if some bad guys die they achieve some sort of catharsis which is more salvation than punishment. I said her character lies in never being rewarded, eventually losing the sight of her goal and hurting what she loves while despite knowing that she keeps on giving her all. That is the kind of character she is. Or at least supposed to be. It's not even about karma or her suffering. It's like with Fujino, who said that despite all suffering in life she thinks that the world is beautiful place. The concept is similar. ssjokg said: And Sakura does have build up in the first days where Shirou is forcing himself to think of her as his friend's little sister. And can it be compared to the rest of the novel where she's absent? Face it, their romance was written badly despite having a good concept. ssjokg said: Yes because everyone is brave enough to just drop dead .Especially people that found soem hope in their miserable life. I don't think she's supposed to come off that miserable. ssjokg said: Source on that?This is the first time I heard about it. Here: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28READ-THE-OP-FOR-ANSWERS%29?p=2239696&viewfull=1#post2239696 ssjokg said: According to everything before ufoubw, Archer was fine with everything during is life.He started rejecting his ideals after he became a CG.So even if that script does exist, you are blaming Miura for staying true to the VN. He wasn't though as he said that his CG life was the same as his real life. That just made him despair only more. He died with a smile on his face because he thought that at least as CG he'll be of more help saving people, not killing them. ssjokg said: Oh hell no.It is true that Rin tries to understand Shirou and help him but in no way does UBW center around her. It doesn't center around her but her trying to understand him is the point of the route. As this is exactly what was different in Shirou's life afterwards - her attitude. Archer also went to London and lived with Rin but they weren't together and judging by Archer's opinion of her in extra she never dropped her tsun. Which is why he was surprised in UBW saying that if she was that kind to him then maybe he wouldn't have ended like that. She won't give him a new purpose in life like Sakura does but she helps him a lot. At least according to Nasu his life was a bit better than Archer's. ssjokg said: Fai's old account?? Are you even serious? Also that's insulting. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 7:19 AM
ssjokg said: Yes because everyone is brave enough to just drop dead .Especially people that found soem hope in their miserable life. I don't think she's supposed to come off that miserable. eh........... wut? |
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Wolfran said: Here: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28READ-THE-OP-FOR-ANSWERS%29?p=2239696&viewfull=1#post2239696 "There was't enough content" Miura,  Goddammit, the feelings i had after reading Nasu's anime epilogue is coming back to me. I better go and do something else to stop thinking about it again. |
| Oh boy, Mini Sakura Wars already? O: can'T wait for the whole gang to come back :D Wolfran said: Here: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28READ-THE-OP-FOR-ANSWERS%29?p=2239696&viewfull=1#post2239696 .... inb4 they skip Kirei's past in HF or change it.... |
It's an improvement compared to the ones we had 2 years ago. Users actually attempt to point out flaws now instead of just looking for an excuse to call her a slut/pick a fight. |
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astroprogs said: but when Shiki decided not to kill her because at the last second Shiki saw something in her that made her more of a victim and less of a psychotic killer. She did that because, like Mikiya said in the novels, at the core they were even more similar than they thought they were. Which is why he wanted them to meet and believed that then Shiki would realize how she doesn't want to kill anyone. Her wish as a person is to be normal and have a peaceful life, to be a part of the world but her innate impulse lies in hurting others. She didn't let herself drown in her origin completely like Lio did, Shiki does that too. For Shiki it's Mikiya, for Fujino it's her wish to exist. Fujino made a mistake but she realized it in the end and suppressed herself. She got to live and as a consequence lost most of her eyesight. astroprogs said: Sakura stopped being that when she started flaunting her murder and rape in front of Shirou, making it very hard for the reader to still sympathize with her. At this point, to me, she stopped being someone i want to save and became someone i just have to kill. Shirou's "You've gone too far, Sakura, for me to be able to save you" voices that line of thought perfectly. Yes, you are right in her being beyond salvation there. Which is why it's a bad end. And you aren't supposed to sympathize with her I believe. astroprogs said: it was the grail that he's in, controlling and directing, was very weak after being destroyed and on its last leg by the start of HA, so he can't make it do the grand miracles the fully powered greater grail should be able to do. But there was never any indication of the grater grail being still functional? I saw it as him becoming his own mini-grail inside the greater grail which is why he didn't disappear along with it. After all there are technically two grails. One that connects to greater grail(white) and another that connects to Avenger(black). And it's not about Sakura and Illya but the doors. Like normal one opens with Justeaze and another with Avenger? The greater grail(with Justeaze's will) is the one Illya said was destroyed and another that was left after is Avenger? I might be misunderstanding something however. astroprogs said: About Illya, we didn't really need her to point that out to Shirou. Kirei telling us about Kiritsugu's decision and the 'Superhero' ending where he goes to, supposedly, murder everyone were more than enough to get that message across. I think Illya being there and her entire character gives Shirou a chance to feel it rather then just hear it. One thing is to learn and understand, another is to experience in person. Even Archer despite killing countless people in life and death didn't just go and kill Sakura because he himself didn't know what to do as he never expected his family to ever get involved in it(like it happened to Kiritsugu) and just let Shirou decide. Well, that's my take on this. Illya is the result of Kiritsugu choosing to be seigi no mikata instead of choosing her. astroprogs said: Illya's scenes are more personal. Her relationship with Shirou was independent from Shirou's struggle with his ideals. She didn't convince him of anything nor did he change her ideals for her or as result of something she said or did. Shirou just wanted to protect Sakura because he loved her, that's all there was to it. I don't think so. If it wasn't for Illya then Shirou would have much higher chances of becoming Kiritsugu. astroprogs said: but it's not all there's to it. Of course it's not all. It's just that some things fuel other, bigger things, like a system with it's own subgroups. There is a certain construction to it. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 7:32 AM
Wolfran said: ssjokg said: That's not being honest.That's having her hate amplified by AM.In other words she isnt in her right mind. She is honest there for the first time in her life. There are parts where she plays a villain to make it easier for Rin/Shirou to kill her(and that is a selfish wish of hers) but not all of it is an act. AM just unleashes that side of hers as usually she keeps everything in herself. As a result she uses her villainous act also as an excuse to get off. Her misfortune in was meeting Shirou who gave her self-awareness and a reason to live. He gave a rise to it by treating her as a human in a way. Which is what Zokuen was hoping for. That bloodthirst was part of Sakura's subconsciousness. That's true. However she was actively repressing it. It's not her fault that the taint took it and amplified it to the max. |
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Heisen said: It's an improvement compared to the ones we had 2 years ago. Users actually attempt to point out flaws now instead of just looking for an excuse to call her a slut/pick a fight. It's gonna be a very long year... |
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Heisen said: That bloodthirst was part of Sakura's subconsciousness. That's true. However she was actively repressing it. It's not her fault that the taint took it and amplified it to the max. Even if she was repressing it doesn't mean those weren't her real feelings. Both emotions are true. It's like in Rider's backstory in HA. What Avenger told to her can easily be applied to Sakura herself. |
Wolfran said: Heisen said: That bloodthirst was part of Sakura's subconsciousness. That's true. However she was actively repressing it. It's not her fault that the taint took it and amplified it to the max. Even if she was repressing it doesn't mean those weren't her real feelings. Both emotions are true. It's like in Rider's backstory in HA. What Avenger told to her can easily be applied to Sakura herself. I didn't get that far in HA. Yes, those are hers. She acknowledges those thoughts as "sinful", and that's why she's repressing them. She wouldn't have acted out on them, had it not been the taint forcing them to surface. |
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Wolfran said: Heisen said: That bloodthirst was part of Sakura's subconsciousness. That's true. However she was actively repressing it. It's not her fault that the taint took it and amplified it to the max. Even if she was repressing it doesn't mean those weren't her real feelings. Both emotions are true. It's like in Rider's backstory in HA. What Avenger told to her can easily be applied to Sakura herself. Having bad toughts in itself doesn't make you a criminal or a murder. And without AM she would've never 'acted' on em. Everyone of us has bad/evil/hateful Emotions and Toughts, does it make us all Criminals? No. |
| @Wolfran And that's exactly what i meant by comparing Sakura with Fujino. At some point, Sakura's actions just can't be swapprd under the rug for being a victim, especially when no consequences to these actions happen whatsoever, again, unlike with Fujino. Like with Illya's bad ends in Fate, Rin's bad end in UBW and Sakura's various bad ends, bad ends are still a part of characters' characterization and story arc. Being a bad end doesn't make then non-canon nor does it really excuse anything. HA's events are the product of the grail wish-granting powers, not HF. There's only one grail and that grail has Avenger inside of it. What you see of it in HA is the remnants of the grail as it's about to vanish, but it still tried to fulfill Bazett's wish. You don't hear it, you experience it. Shirou goes to fight and kill Rin and Illya in 'Superhero'. You already get the emotional impact from that end alone. That's definitly not true. The Superhero ending is a proof of that. The only reason Shirou didn't turn into Kiritsugu is because of his love for Sakura. Illya had absolutely nothing to do with this. At the choice point Illya asks Shirou what he'll do. He says: He made that choice based on a single thought: I love Sakura and that's all that matters. |
Heisen said: Yes, those are hers. She acknowledges those thoughts as "sinful", and that's why she's repressing them. She wouldn't have acted out on them, had it not been the taint forcing them to surface. Taint or not those were her thoughts. It allowed her an excuse to say whatever she wants. You could say it gave her courage to expose feelings she suppresses. I'm not bashing Sakura or anything. It's just a natural part of her. In other routes she goes without ever revealing anything or complaining about it to anyone even once. It's supposed to show her inner strength if anything. HF allows her to go all out. |
astroprogs said: The only reason Shirou didn't turn into Kiritsugu is because of his love for Sakura. Illya had absolutely nothing to do with this. Ermm, there is also the fact that he would be betraying Illya in case he went with Super hero killah mode. Altough Sakura is the main reason yeah, Illya also had an Influence in it. Infact without Illya i think he would've went full Kerry mode. |
Shrimperor said: astroprogs said: The only reason Shirou didn't turn into Kiritsugu is because of his love for Sakura. Illya had absolutely nothing to do with this. Ermm, there is also the fact that he would be betraying Illya in case he went with Super hero killah mode. Altough Sakura is the main reason yeah, Illya also had an Influence in it. Infact without Illya i think he would've went full Kerry mode. Shirou never thought that far ahead, though. As the VN quote above states, he just did it for Sakura. Illya wasn't even on his mind when he made that choice. Edit; I just re-read Superhero and yeah, you're right. He was thinking of Illya even if he didn't voice it in the normal route. |
"astroprogsApr 3, 2016 8:10 AM
astroprogs said: Like with Illya's bad ends in Fate, Rin's bad end in UBW and Sakura's various bad ends, bad ends are still a part of characters' characterization and story arc. Being a bad end doesn't make then non-canon nor does it really excuse anything. Yes, and? What happened in that end happened because of her misunderstanding and did everything on an impulse. She was wrong. No one can always be right. Even more so it's not just her fault but Rin's partly as well. She may have had her reasons but the way she treats Sakura over there is still an action she does which triggers Sakura. Both are at fault. astroprogs said: HA's events are the product of the grail wish-granting powers, not HF. There's only one grail and that grail has Avenger inside of it. What you see of it in HA is the remnants of the grail as it's about to vanish, but it still tried to fulfill Bazett's wish. Again, does it mean that there were functioning left overs of the greater grail? If so then, please, point out where because I don't remember that. I only remember Gil being stuck in the grail mud in the cavern. Is that the source? But the world was reversed was it not? The circuits themselves were destroyed and it was exactly what gave a rise to HGW while Justeaze was providing HF. But if those things are ruined then isn't it just Avenger taking energy from the leyline on his own? astroprogs said: You don't hear it, you experience it. Shirou goes to fight and kill Rin and Illya in 'Superhero'. You already get the emotional impact from that end alone. Shirou of another choice however has no experience of such thing. It's about his experiences leading him to that decision. astroprogs said: The Superhero ending is a proof of that. The only reason Shirou didn't turn into Kiritsugu is because of his love for Sakura. Illya had absolutely nothing to do with this. But that end did happen and he became Kiritsugu. Prior to Illya's arrival he was unsure of which choice to make. It is true that he loves Sakura but he had more chances of lying to himself again if Illya didn't show up. We get this decision after Illya appears, not before. I still think that Illya-Kiritsugu/Sakura-Shirou parallel is present. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 8:22 AM
astroprogs said: Shrimperor said: Ermm, there is also the fact that he would be betraying Illya in case he went with Super hero killah mode. Altough Sakura is the main reason yeah, Illya also had an Influence in it. Infact without Illya i think he would've went full Kerry mode. Shirou never thought that far ahead, though. As the VN quote above states, he just did it for Sakura. Illya wasn't even on his mind when he made that choice. http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20310/ Altough it's only said in the bad end, i am sure it appliest with the right choice too. Also without Illya telling him this http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20309/37-HF09-19-70.jpg Kerry Jr. would've surely happened. |
Wolfran said: Heisen said: Yes, those are hers. She acknowledges those thoughts as "sinful", and that's why she's repressing them. She wouldn't have acted out on them, had it not been the taint forcing them to surface. Taint or not those were her thoughts.. We dont disagree about that. The taint didnt give her an "excuse". She, just like anyone under the influence of AM, stopped repressing them. >She is honest there for the first time in her life. .... I agree.Except that all of us have negative/destructive feelings.And it is us that know that we have to NOT act on them because they are bad. >Yes, you are right in her being beyond salvation there. Which is why it's a bad end. And you aren't supposed to sympathize with her I believe. You are supposed to sympathize with her even there since she is beyond saving. >And can it be compared to the rest of the novel where she's absent? You mean the first two routes?Yeah so?What does it matter.The only thing it affects is making people being interested on her, and many are. If you mean HF itself, just like Saber and Rin have their "key" scenes she has hers.Like the one in the classroom. >I don't think she's supposed to come off that miserable. Think about what you just said.She experienced pretty much every abuse she could have experienced in that house. >Source and Archer stuff As someone from BL said "I like how back then was "woah, those episodes were really good" and now people is like "goddammit Ufotable, why you didn't this stuff".Same with happened with the very last scene.It was fine but after everyone learned about what Nasu wanted they went apeshit. And I still disagree about Archer.Even he himself says so to Shirou back when he was escorting him home. >her trying to understand him is the point of the route. Em no.The point of the route is accepting your flaws but still keep walking forward.Everything is about Archer and Shirou. >Archer also went to London and lived with Rin but they weren't together and judging by Archer's opinion of her in extra she never dropped her tsun. When did that happen? Shrimperor said: astroprogs said: The only reason Shirou didn't turn into Kiritsugu is because of his love for Sakura. Illya had absolutely nothing to do with this. Ermm, there is also the fact that he would be betraying Illya in case he went with Super hero killah mode. Altough Sakura is the main reason yeah, Illya also had an Influence in it. Infact without Illya i think he would've went full Kerry mode. It is true that Ilya gave him the final push with her support but she herself wasnt the reason.I mean, in the same scene you can STILL go Kerry mode so it doesnt really matter. |
| @Wolfran First, i wouldn't say what she did was "on an impulse". It seemed pretty deliberate. Second, Rin didn't know about the way the Matous treated her, judging from her reaction and what she said when she went into trhe worm room for the first time. Third, not sure how what Sakura did to Rin there put them on a remotely equal footing. Pretty sure Rin didn't rape Sakura and taunted her in amusement. What i can remember clearly that the grail in HA is what's left of a destroyed grail. I hope there's something like lparchive for HA because i seriously can't be bothered to comb walls of text for this one. I re-read 'Superhero' just now. Yeah, you're right. Illya definitly had an influence on Shirou in making that decision. |
Shrimperor said: astroprogs said: Shirou never thought that far ahead, though. As the VN quote above states, he just did it for Sakura. Illya wasn't even on his mind when he made that choice. http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20310/ Altough it's only said in the bad end, i am sure it appliest with the right choice too. Also without Illya telling him this http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20309/37-HF09-19-70.jpg Kerry Jr. would've surely happened. Yep, i got that. Check out my post again. |
SherouOfJustice said: Well this thread can be closed now, everything of importance has been spoken.Illya is best girl. |
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ssjokg said: I agree.Except that all of us have negative/destructive feelings.And it is us that know that we have to NOT act on them because they are bad. Just like Fujino wouldn't have done anything if she wasn't unfortunate enough to be attacked. That doesn't take away the fact that both Fujino and Sakura are sadists by nature and eventually they start using anything and everything as an excuse. Just the same with Rider. ssjokg said: You are supposed to sympathize with her even there since she is beyond saving. Not in that ending for sure. ssjokg said: What does it matter. It matters as the novel is a single story not three different. Routes rely on one another for a reason. For people who wasted 40 hours on certain group of characters when another characters appearance who exists only to spread suffering on them is not particularly sympathetic nor they have emotional connection to them. ssjokg said: Think about what you just said.She experienced pretty much every abuse she could have experienced in that house. Her character isn't supposed to be pitiful but you could even say admirable that she managed to go through so much without ever breaking until she was completely cornered once in the end of HF. ssjokg said: Em no.The point of the route is accepting your flaws but still keep walking forward.Everything is about Archer and Shirou. Rin is the observer of his story who eventually changes his life from absolute shit to a bit better than shit. Archer lost his hope, Shirou never did thanks to her. ssjokg said: When did that happen? That happened when Nasu said that Archer is from a variation of Fate route and pointed out that he cooperated with Rin and went to London. He makes it clear even in HA that he was in London and there aren't many people who would take him there. In Extra he says that Rin is 'too much'(also being tsundere prior to it) and that his type is closer to Sakura(?; it was unclear there but there aren't many girls Hakuno knows whose figure Archer would know that well). Which means that she never went full dere like in UBW and that happens only if they are in a relationship. astroprogs said: First, i wouldn't say what she did was "on an impulse". It seemed pretty deliberate. Second, Rin didn't know about the way the Matous treated her, judging from her reaction and what she said when she went into trhe worm room for the first time. Third, not sure how what Sakura did to Rin there put them on a remotely equal footing. Pretty sure Rin didn't rape Sakura and taunted her in amusement. Nah, reread that part, Rin provoked her(not on purpose I think) but still did. Sakura wanted Rin to show that she cares for her and Rin rejected her. By the time the fight happened she knew. And even before the fight she pointed out to Sakura that she's a 'nuance' to her. Sakura thinks Rin looks on her from high and that she completely doesn't care for her while Rin herself isn't helping much. Sakura in general considers Rin to be a cold person that stomps on her life as if it's natural for Sakura to be thrown away and used as a fuel to Rin's own good life but as we know it's a great misunderstanding on her part. Rin just never ever expressed her emotions to her. There was even a line about how Sakura wanted anything out of her, be it love or hate, but Rin always had a poker face ready instead. Actions and feelings are different matter. I'd say comparing suffering isn't a good way to do it. There are times when something little can cause a disaster. Like... who expects that some promise you gave as a joke to someone once end in mass murders six years later when you forgot about everything and be at fault and the cause of everything? But it can happen. astroprogs said: What i can remember clearly that the grail in HA is what's left of a destroyed grail. I hope there's something like lparchive for HA because i seriously can't be bothered to comb walls of text for this one. Now that you say this I think I recall something like that. You might be right then, sorry for the fuss. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 9:22 AM
Wolfran said: Just like Fujino wouldn't have done anything if she wasn't unfortunate enough to be attacked. That doesn't take away the fact that both Fujino and Sakura are sadists by nature and eventually they start using anything and everything as an excuse. Just the same with Rider. except that unlike Sakura, Fujinon didn't have an AM to amplify her feelings. |
It's like saying if you kill when you're drunk then your hands might as well be clean. Sakura is a victim but not anymore after she gets rid of Shinji, Kirei and Zokuen. Also there is Medusa. She was killing people because she had to protect her sisters until she started taking a liking to it excusing it with 'I'm doing the same thing as they did to me, so it's okay; I was a victim before they were'. |
| >Just like Fujino Fujino didnt have All evil's of the world influencing her mentality.While similar the two are very different in their circumstances. >Not in that ending for sure. Especially in that ending since she is beyond saving.She cant get worse than that. >For people who wasted 40 hours on certain group of characters... Very subjective. It just means that some people just couldnt give a shit about Sakura. >who exists only to spread suffering on them Yeah sure.Because the other characters dont do anything.Like Rin who instead of having a real talk with Sakura,one of the things that would make Sakura capable of resisting AM, she play the cold magus role.You even mention that yourself. Things didnt go to shit in this route just because of Sakura. >Her character isn't supposed to be pitiful I could say that every single fan of hers, and more disagrees with you.And she did break.When Shinji threatened to reveal everything to Shirou and when Rin instead of talking to her kept antagonizing her, and they were ridiculously lucky that she didnt just kill them at that night. >Rin is the observer... yes but that doesnt make UBW about her.What Rin can do and is trying to do is make him care more about himself.Shirou losing hope doesnt depend on whether someone was there for 3-5 years.And losing hope wont make him Archer.And I am pretty sure that Shirou KNOWS that he cant save everyone.i dont see any hope there.He will keep saving as many as he can because it is beautiful and fulfills him but he knows it is futile to save everyone.The difference is Archer didnt come to terms with that when he was alive, so after death he hated his fate. |
Wolfran said: It's like saying if you kill when you're drunk then your hands might as well be clean. Sakura is a victim but not anymore after she gets rid of Shinji, Kirei and Zokuen. Also there is Medusa. She was killing people because she had to protect her sisters until she started taking a liking to it excusing it with 'I'm doing the same thing as they did to me, so it's okay; I was a victim before they were'. You cant compare being drunk to having Satan inside of you. And if I ignore what she says and does to Shirou and co, she was in control of her powers and nobody random was dying anymore.At least the narration doesnt give us sch info. |
Wolfran said: It's like saying if you kill when you're drunk then your hands might as well be clean. Except that normally you drink Alcohol willingly (wether it's because of party, or sadness or anger, or any of of the reasons to drink). I doubt Sakura really wanted AM influencing her. Also, getting rid of Shinji is something good :p |
Shrimperor said: Wolfran said: It's like saying if you kill when you're drunk then your hands might as well be clean. Except that normally you drink Alcohol willingly (wether it's because of party, or sadness or anger, or any of of the reasons to drink). I doubt Sakura really wanted AM influencing her. Also, getting rid of Shinji is something good :p And not all just go crazy because of alcohol. |
Wolfran said: astroprogs said: First, i wouldn't say what she did was "on an impulse". It seemed pretty deliberate. Second, Rin didn't know about the way the Matous treated her, judging from her reaction and what she said when she went into trhe worm room for the first time. Third, not sure how what Sakura did to Rin there put them on a remotely equal footing. Pretty sure Rin didn't rape Sakura and taunted her in amusement. Nah, reread that part, Rin provoked her(not on purpose I think) but still did. Sakura wanted Rin to show that she cares for her and Rin rejected her. By the time the fight happened she knew. And even before the fight she pointed out to Sakura that she's a 'nuance' to her. Sakura thinks Rin looks on her from high and that she completely doesn't care for her while Rin herself isn't helping much. Sakura in general considers Rin to be a cold person that stomps on her life as if it's natural for Sakura to be thrown away and used as a fuel to Rin's own good life but as we know it's a great misunderstanding on her part. Rin just never ever expressed her emotions to her. There was even a line about how Sakura wanted anything out of her, be it love or hate, but Rin always had a poker face ready instead. Actions and feelings are different matter. I'd say comparing suffering isn't a good way to do it. There are times when something little can cause a disaster. Like... who expects that some promise you gave as a joke to someone once end in mass murders six years later when you forgot about everything and be at fault and the cause of everything? But it can happen. That's exactly what makes Sakura a spoilt brat in those scenes. Life was horrible to her, true. Her sister "seemed" like she didn't give a crap about her, true. But Rin is fighting and trying to kill her because she's a danger to humanity, and Sakura knew at least that much. Lashing out and unleashing suppresed anger is fine and good when it's in kind. Rin never expressed joy in harming Sakura, yet Sakura was almost orgasming in "Femme Fatale". This whole thing became much bigger than Sakura and her suffering, regardless of how awful it was, but once she became drunk with power, she became an ouright villian who doesn't want to take responsibility for her actions. Rin's apathy was harsh and cruel, but, considering what's at stake, it's not like i can't completely see why she acted this way. |
ssjokg said: Fujino didnt have All evil's of the world influencing her mentality.While similar the two are very different in their circumstances. She still didn't kill herself even though she had to. She knew it would happen eventually and still refused to. This is the core of her problems and the only choice she's allowed to make. ssjokg said: Very subjective. It just means that some people just couldnt give a shit about Sakura. And if so many people didn't give a shit means that there was something wrong in the first place, no? ssjokg said: Things didnt go to shit in this route just because of Sakura. I never said that everything was her fault and she's the only one who's bad. Everyone is. The route is caused by misunderstandings and characters refusing to be honest with themselves or face reality. ssjokg said: I could say that every single fan of hers, and more disagrees with you. I said many times that there are misunderstandings to her character and this is one of them. People focus too much on pity as if it's the only thing to her character when it's not. She has a horrible life not because everyone should pity her but because it's supposed to contrast with her inner strength that is. But I'll give you that Nasu failed at it in SN by focusing on suffering and only that. ssjokg said: And losing hope wont make him Archer.And I am pretty sure that Shirou KNOWS that he cant save everyone.i dont see any hope there.He will keep saving as many as he can because it is beautiful and fulfills him but he knows it is futile to save everyone.The difference is Archer didnt come to terms with that when he was alive, so after death he hated his fate. It would. Archer just like Kiritsugu lost himself, hope and faith in anything. He believed in his ideals, lost everything in exchange and in the end even those ideals betrayed him. Which is why Kerry said in Zero: As long as Shirou remembers, as long as he has someone to remind him of that, he won't have life as bad as Archer. It's not about him becoming Archer but living a life like he did. Like Shirou said 'being right isn't everything'. He can't save everyone but it will never stop him from believing and hoping that such dream can come true one day; not necessary even in his lifetime or after. It's an unreachable ideal and that's why without having hope and faith one cannot devote themselves to it until the end. |
astroprogs said: Wolfran said: Nah, reread that part, Rin provoked her(not on purpose I think) but still did. Sakura wanted Rin to show that she cares for her and Rin rejected her. By the time the fight happened she knew. And even before the fight she pointed out to Sakura that she's a 'nuance' to her. Sakura thinks Rin looks on her from high and that she completely doesn't care for her while Rin herself isn't helping much. Sakura in general considers Rin to be a cold person that stomps on her life as if it's natural for Sakura to be thrown away and used as a fuel to Rin's own good life but as we know it's a great misunderstanding on her part. Rin just never ever expressed her emotions to her. There was even a line about how Sakura wanted anything out of her, be it love or hate, but Rin always had a poker face ready instead. Actions and feelings are different matter. I'd say comparing suffering isn't a good way to do it. There are times when something little can cause a disaster. Like... who expects that some promise you gave as a joke to someone once end in mass murders six years later when you forgot about everything and be at fault and the cause of everything? But it can happen. That's exactly what makes Sakura a spoilt brat in those scenes. Life was horrible to her, true. Her sister "seemed" like she didn't give a crap about her, true. But Rin is fighting and trying to kill her because she's a danger to humanity, and Sakura knew at least that much. Lashing out and unleashing suppresed anger is fine and good when it's in kind. Rin never expressed joy in harming Sakura, yet Sakura was almost orgasming in "Femme Fatale". This whole thing became much bigger than Sakura and her suffering, regardless of how awful it was, but once she became drunk with power, she became an ouright villian who doesn't want to take responsibility for her actions. Rin's apathy was harsh and cruel, but, considering what's at stake, it's not like i can't completely see why she acted this way. Why do we call a possessed Sakura a spoiled brat?? The story made it clear that Rin(and Shirou at times) being aggressive to her,even when Sakura told them to run away, the more did Sakura focus in her dark feelings. But when Rin drops teh col act, Sakura is even able to resist AM. This isnt about a normal, sane person knowing they are wrong. |
Wolfran said: She still didn't kill herself even though she had to. She knew it would happen eventually and still refused to. This is the core of her problems and the only choice she's allowed to make. Tell me, would you? Would you kill yourself? |
ssjokg said: Why do we call a possessed Sakura a spoiled brat?? The story made it clear that Rin(and Shirou at times) being aggressive to her,even when Sakura told them to run away, the more did Sakura focus in her dark feelings. But when Rin drops teh col act, Sakura is even able to resist AM. This isnt about a normal, sane person knowing they are wrong. Because she is? Being a spoilt brat doesn't necessarily mean by choice. She was under AM's influence and she barely had any sanity left, but all of this doesn't make me feel much towards her. If an insane person killed someone you love, would you be able to stop yourself from hating him, even if you understood and even empathized with his condition? An insanity plea for Sakura would definitely hold up in court (would love to see that trial lol), but would it really matter to the feelings of the victim's loved ones? That's how i felt towards Sakura in "Femme Fatale". She went too far for me to have the emotional capacity to let what she did, whatever the reason was, just go. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 10:08 AM
| >She still didn't kill herself even though she had to. Again, some people arent that strong. She wanted to die in the past to but she never did it because she was afraid. Do you really call people criminals because they arent willing to die? >And if so many people didn't give a shit means that there was something wrong in the first place, no? Many people dont care about many characters.Does that make them all bad?Face it, not everyone has the same preference.I dont care about Rin.Does that make her a bad character? >But I'll give you that Nasu failed at it in SN by focusing on suffering and only that. Funny since many people and her actions show her inner strength >It would. Archer just like Kiritsugu lost himself... Again, that's after he died because the after death miracle he wanted didnt happen. This is the difference between Shirou and Archer.Rin is there to make him more "human" so that he doesnt follow Archer's path to afterlife. Having a dream and knowing that it is just a dream(Shirou) and thinking it can actually come true(Archer) are different. |
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