DrCoppelius said: KLKfanboy said: Can someone explain to me, how exactly a disproportion in the number of both genders is sexist? Well it's not realistic since the world is actually split equally in between men and women, and some girls feel excluded since they don't get to see their own gender kick ass and go on adventures like the boys get to. It doesn't really bother me but I see where they're coming from. Funnily enough, SNK's characters belong to the equivalent of an army so it's realistical for there to be slightly less females than males since the same applies to the real world. |
DrCoppelius said: Agafin said: Funnily enough, SNK's characters belong to the equivalent of an army so it's realistical for there to be slightly less females than males since the same applies to the real world. The unbalanced gender distribution applies to HxH a lot more than SnK. SnK doesn't really have anything to reproach itself on that side. Yeah that's true. I recall a lot of people wanting Kurapika to be a girl. Togashi just doesn't seem to care about gender. |
Darklord_bg said: It's been mentioned 100 times already, but I will repeat it for emphasis - HunterXHunter. There are few women in it but all of them are treated the same way as the men. Do you mean when it comes to violence? If so, that applies, to any shounen. |
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StefanHere said: HxH goes as far as to put no emphasis on gender with Pitou being a male but looked female same as Alluka and Kalltuo Alluka was born male. She just identifies as a female. |
SyndiciateJun 1, 2015 10:03 AM
Agafin said: DrCoppelius said: The unbalanced gender distribution applies to HxH a lot more than SnK. SnK doesn't really have anything to reproach itself on that side. Yeah that's true. I recall a lot of people wanting Kurapika to be a girl. Togashi just doesn't seem to care about gender. Biske is one of the most important characters in the series is female and there are plenty of other female characters throughout the show. DrCoppelius said: KLKfanboy said: Can someone explain to me, how exactly a disproportion in the number of both genders is sexist? Well it's not realistic since the world is actually split equally in between men and women, and some girls feel excluded since they don't get to see their own gender kick ass and go on adventures like the boys get to. It doesn't really bother me but I see where they're coming from. It wouldn't be realistic if the setting was THIS world but since many animes take place in completely different universes we don't know the male to female ratio in that world. |
SyndiciateJun 1, 2015 10:28 AM
DrCoppelius said: DrCoppelius said: Well it's not realistic since the world is actually split equally in between men and women, and some girls feel excluded since they don't get to see their own gender kick ass and go on adventures like the boys get to. It doesn't really bother me but I see where they're coming from. It wouldn't be realistic if the setting was THIS world but since many animes take place in completely different universes we don't know the male to female ratio in that world. Hmm... but wouldn't that be arguing that humans have an outright different biology and reproductive system in that world, or that one gender gets killed. The thing is, they're both a possibility, but the first one seems like a bit of a convoluted excuse to not have as many characters of one gender and if the second one is true, that should definitely serve a purpose in the story. I'm not really bothered by it as I've said, but I also don't see why you wouldn't try to go for an equal gender distribution when it makes sense within the story.[/quote] It's not the job of the media or entertainment industry to bring about change and promote progressive ideals on their shows. Only to make a profit. Many people accuse the people who make Once Upon a Time of being bigots and homophobes for not canonizing SwanQueen. I.E. a relationship between Emma Swan ( The Savior ) and Regina Mills ( Evil Queen ). Just because they don't pander to the audience doesn't make them bigots. I actually don't know why I didn't bring this up in the first place. Shows are made to make money not to further progressive or conservative agenda. The job of bringing about change is left to the people who want to bring it about. If somebody in the media or entertainment industry wishes to do that that's all well and good but if not they shouldn't be accused of being sexist for not having an equal amount of male and female characters or having too many male MC's. |
SyndiciateJun 1, 2015 10:22 AM
Furirun said: I don't feel fanservice=sexism, so I'm not really even sure what sexism would be in this context. If you mean gender stereotypes, then I'd say it can go both ways, even though women would probably be the more objectified and prominent victims. If you mean a lack of women characters, that's more of a case-by-case basis. Unless the creators of the show admit that their intentions were sexist I don't believe you can say with confidence anything shown on TV is sexist. You don't know their reasoning behind putting a character in a certain situation or making them act a certain way. |
Syndiciate said: Agafin said: Yeah that's true. I recall a lot of people wanting Kurapika to be a girl. Togashi just doesn't seem to care about gender. Biske one of the most important characters in the series is female and there are plenty of other female characters throughout the show. I totally agree. It's a case of quality over quantity. Pakunoda, Biscuit, Komugi and Palm also had very important roles in their respective arcs and beyond , while some female characters like Machi seem to be universally loved within the fanbase |
DrCoppelius said: Syndiciate said: It's not the job of the media or entertainment industry to bring about change and promote progressive ideals on their shows. Only to make a profit. Many people accuse the people who make Once Upon a Time of being bigots and homophones for not canonizing SwanQueen. I.E. a relationship between Emma Swan ( The Savior ) and Regina Mills ( Evil Queen ).Just because they don't pander to the audience does not make them sexist, homophobes or bigots. I actually don't know why I didn't bring this up in the first place. Shows are made to make money not to further progressive or conservative agenda. The job of bringing about change is left to the people who want to bring it about. If somebody in the media or entertainment industry wishes to do that that's all well and good but if not they shouldn't be accused of being a terrible person. I accused no one of being a terrible person. I don't think a show having mild sexist elements in it means the director of the show or the original creator is sexist. I think Togashi probably prefers writing male characters since most main characters are male, which might make some girls feel somewhat left out, and I would like it if he wrote more female characters. However, I don't feel pissed off about it, I just think it would be nice for media to be a bit more fair and I'm bringing up examples to back up my statements because otherwise I'm just saying nonsense. Hunter X Hunter actually has a huge female according to a japanese poll. Then again, so does One Piece and (especially) KnB and KHR so go figure. |
DrCoppelius said: Syndiciate said: It's not the job of the media or entertainment industry to bring about change and promote progressive ideals on their shows. Only to make a profit. Many people accuse the people who make Once Upon a Time of being bigots and homophones for not canonizing SwanQueen. I.E. a relationship between Emma Swan ( The Savior ) and Regina Mills ( Evil Queen ).Just because they don't pander to the audience does not make them sexist, homophobes or bigots. I actually don't know why I didn't bring this up in the first place. Shows are made to make money not to further progressive or conservative agenda. The job of bringing about change is left to the people who want to bring it about. If somebody in the media or entertainment industry wishes to do that that's all well and good but if not they shouldn't be accused of being a terrible person. I accused no one of being a terrible person. I don't think a show having mild sexist elements in it means the director of the show or the original creator is sexist. I think Togashi probably prefers writing male characters since most main characters are male, which might make some girls feel somewhat left out, and I would like it if he wrote more female characters. However, I don't feel pissed off about it, I just think it would be nice for media to be a bit more fair and I'm bringing up examples to back up my statements because otherwise I'm just saying nonsense. And no, entertainment does not just exist to make a profit. No one goes into movies because they want to make money despite hating storytelling. Not to mention, stories have always been incredibly important in shaping our view of the world and I think it's good to keep some awareness about that when you love storytelling. Media should not be immune to criticism. The media and entertainment industry is not here to be fair it is here to make money. Personally I think if shows molded themselves to fit the politically correct view of things they'd be very boring. That's not to say shows with homosexuals or an all girl cast would be bad. In fact shows like Modern Family and Pretty Little Liars have proved shows with stuff like that can be popular. I'm simply saying if the media was forced to mold itself to any certain way of thinking it would be restricted and overall the quality and creativity levels would drop. I'm not saying the people who make shows and movies go into it simply hoping to make a profit. I'm saying the industry itself exists to make a profit as do most other industries. People's personal beliefs are their own and they can allow that to shape their work however they want. If it becomes popular because of that great. If not then apparently their own personal beliefs didn't ring out to a broader audience so they might want to consider leaving them out of their next effort if profit matters to them at all. If not keep doing what you're doing. |
DrCoppelius said: Agafin said: Hunter X Hunter actually has a huge female according to a japanese poll. Then again, so does One Piece and (especially) KnB and KHR so go figure. Oh yeah, I like HxH too. I might be ragging on it too much because it's an example that was brought up in the past page and I was too lazy to think of another one, not to mention I honestly don't consume much battle shonen. And I think it's a very good show. Sorry if I'm being a bit defensive. Hunter x Hunter is my favorite medium of entertainment in existence. :P |
Syndiciate said: DrCoppelius said: Oh yeah, I like HxH too. I might be ragging on it too much because it's an example that was brought up in the past page and I was too lazy to think of another one, not to mention I honestly don't consume much battle shonen. And I think it's a very good show. Sorry if I'm being a bit defensive. Hunter x Hunter is my favorite medium of entertainment in existence. :P HxH does not have dumb sexist shit. it doesnt have female leads with BOOBS for brains and the fact that it doesnt have female leads at all doesnt mean its sexist, its just neutral. @OP: claymore from the top of my head, if anything, its empowering for women. |
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DrCoppelius said: Syndiciate said: The media and entertainment industry is not here to be fair it is here to make money. Personally I think if shows molded themselves to fit the politically correct view of things they'd be very boring. That's not to say shows with homosexuals or an all girl cast would be bad. In fact shows like Modern Family and Pretty Little Liars have proved shows with stuff like that can be popular. I'm simply saying if the media was forced to mold itself to any certain way of thinking it would be restricted and overall the quality and creativity levels would drop. I'm not saying the people who make shows and movies go into it simply hoping to make a profit. I'm saying the industry itself exists to make a profit as do most other industries. People's personal beliefs are their own and they can allow that to shape their work however they want. If it becomes popular because of that great. If not then apparently their own personal beliefs didn't ring out to a broader audience so they might want to consider leaving them out of their next effort if profit matters to them at all. If not keep doing what you're doing. Well, I don't advocate for being constantly PC. I love KLK after all. I just think it's good to keep in mind various audiences and to try and branch out. It's not as though we see a lot of dykes around so I don't think it would hurt to have some here and there in normal shows. Syndiciate said: Sorry if I'm being a bit defensive. Hunter x Hunter is my favorite medium of entertainment in existence. :P Naah, it's fine. We good? I'm going to be ending the argument here now by the way because I have math class. Sure. See ya around man. :) |
ZA_WAYD said: Syndiciate said: Sorry if I'm being a bit defensive. Hunter x Hunter is my favorite medium of entertainment in existence. :P HxH does not have dumb sexist shit. it doesnt have female leads with BOOBS for brains and the fact that it doesnt have female leads at all doesnt mean its sexist, its just neutral. @OP: claymore from the top of my head, if anything, its empowering for women. Indeed. |
DrCoppelius said: KLKfanboy said: Can someone explain to me, how exactly a disproportion in the number of both genders is sexist? Well it's not realistic since the world is actually split equally in between men and women, and some girls feel excluded since they don't get to see their own gender kick ass and go on adventures like the boys get to. It doesn't really bother me but I see where they're coming from. So by that logic harems are sexist to men? And stuff like Free is sexist to women? Might be just me, but I can hardly recall any anime that would actually be sexist (well, a lot of hentai is, I guess). The term sexism, just as gender objectification are vastly overused IMO, and people slap them on anything for no real reason. |
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| "Objectification" isn't even on my radar if we're having a discussion about "sexism". Making your character attractive is not sexism. Sorry. To me, a show is sexist when it implements a strict gender role enforcement, but is at the same time completely unapologetic and not self-aware about it. It's implementation isn't so much about what the characters are doing, what the character feels, or their characterization in general, but more about appealing to the audience's expectations of how the characters should act. For example, there was a scene in Ishuukan Friends (I probably spelled taht wrong), where the girl who forgets everything lost her diary. She doesn't remember exactly what it is, but she knows she's lost something incredibly important to her. The episode consists of her trying to find it, as well as the main character trying to find it, even though she doesn't remember him at all. At the end of the episode, they're by a river bank (I forget why they specifically went there, I think that's where she lost it or something). Now, she does NOT remember who the main character is. So he's there searching, and she shows up, and he tells her "It's dangerous, don't come here!" and continues to search. She pretty much just goes "welp, okey dokey then". And sits down. And waits and lets him search in the "dangerous" riverbank. Because you know, he's just SO CHIVALROUS and BRAVE. The big strong MANLY main character protects the DAINTY woman from harm by searching for her most precious lost item. But the whole time I'm just thinking, ".... if she really cared about finding her diary, why would she just let some RANDOM guy she doesn't even know search for it, and just give up instantly because he said 'It's dangerous'?" And the "danger" was just a fucking muddy river bank. Like, slightly tall grass. SO DANGEROUS. The characters were completely dictated by enforcing stupid gender roles that would NOT even make sense if the characters stayed true to their desires. Sexism, to me, is something subtle. It's something that pervades a story. It is something that the characters are restricted by. It is something that limits creativity, that limits action. It limits thought. It is not a character who happens to have big boobs. |
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Red_Keys said: "Objectification" isn't even on my radar if we're having a discussion about "sexism". Making your character attractive is not sexism. Sorry. To me, a show is sexist when it implements a strict gender role enforcement, but is at the same time completely unapologetic and not self-aware about it. It's implementation isn't so much about what the characters are doing, what the character feels, or their characterization in general, but more about appealing to the audience's expectations of how the characters should act. For example, there was a scene in Ishuukan Friends (I probably spelled taht wrong), where the girl who forgets everything lost her diary. She doesn't remember exactly what it is, but she knows she's lost something incredibly important to her. The episode consists of her trying to find it, as well as the main character trying to find it, even though she doesn't remember him at all. At the end of the episode, they're by a river bank (I forget why they specifically went there, I think that's where she lost it or something). Now, she does NOT remember who the main character is. So he's there searching, and she shows up, and he tells her "It's dangerous, don't come here!" and continues to search. She pretty much just goes "welp, okey dokey then". And sits down. And waits and lets him search in the "dangerous" riverbank. Because you know, he's just SO CHIVALROUS and BRAVE. The big strong MANLY main character protects the DAINTY woman from harm by searching for her most precious lost item. But the whole time I'm just thinking, ".... if she really cared about finding her diary, why would she just let some RANDOM guy she doesn't even know search for it, and just give up instantly because he said 'It's dangerous'?" And the "danger" was just a fucking muddy river bank. Like, slightly tall grass. SO DANGEROUS. The characters were completely dictated by enforcing stupid gender roles that would NOT even make sense if the characters stayed true to their desires. Sexism, to me, is something subtle. It's something that pervades a story. It is something that the characters are restricted by. It is something that limits creativity, that limits action. It limits thought. It is not a character who happens to have big boobs. I fail to see how exactly is that sexist. A character let a willing person help her with a problem, and it just happens to be a guy. Is it so strange? You can't trust a strange? Never let one help you with anything? What if that person was another woman, everything would be fine then? I haven't watched that anime, but I don't see where exactly is there some sort of discrimination in this situation. |
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Red_Keys said: "Objectification" isn't even on my radar if we're having a discussion about "sexism". Making your character attractive is not sexism. Sorry. To me, a show is sexist when it implements a strict gender role enforcement, but is at the same time completely unapologetic and not self-aware about it. It's implementation isn't so much about what the characters are doing, what the character feels, or their characterization in general, but more about appealing to the audience's expectations of how the characters should act. For example, there was a scene in Ishuukan Friends (I probably spelled taht wrong), where the girl who forgets everything lost her diary. She doesn't remember exactly what it is, but she knows she's lost something incredibly important to her. The episode consists of her trying to find it, as well as the main character trying to find it, even though she doesn't remember him at all. At the end of the episode, they're by a river bank (I forget why they specifically went there, I think that's where she lost it or something). Now, she does NOT remember who the main character is. So he's there searching, and she shows up, and he tells her "It's dangerous, don't come here!" and continues to search. She pretty much just goes "welp, okey dokey then". And sits down. And waits and lets him search in the "dangerous" riverbank. Because you know, he's just SO CHIVALROUS and BRAVE. The big strong MANLY main character protects the DAINTY woman from harm by searching for her most precious lost item. But the whole time I'm just thinking, ".... if she really cared about finding her diary, why would she just let some RANDOM guy she doesn't even know search for it, and just give up instantly because he said 'It's dangerous'?" And the "danger" was just a fucking muddy river bank. Like, slightly tall grass. SO DANGEROUS. The characters were completely dictated by enforcing stupid gender roles that would NOT even make sense if the characters stayed true to their desires. Sexism, to me, is something subtle. It's something that pervades a story. It is something that the characters are restricted by. It is something that limits creativity, that limits action. It limits thought. It is not a character who happens to have big boobs. Can you message me a shortened version RK? :c |
KLKfanboy said: It's not about his actions, it's about her's.I fail to see how exactly is that sexist. A character let a willing person help her with a problem, and it just happens to be a guy. Is it so strange? You can't trust a strange? Never let one help you with anything? What if that person was another woman, everything would be fine then? I haven't watched that anime, but I don't see where exactly is there some sort of discrimination in this situation. She obeys his concerned orders because..... because it's important for her to stay "safe". It's important for him to be "manly". It made me completely doubt her sincerity in wanting to find what she lost. She had absolutely zero drive. That scene was written with the audience first, the characters second. Almost like fanservice in a way. |
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Red_Keys said: KLKfanboy said: It's not about his actions, it's about her's.I fail to see how exactly is that sexist. A character let a willing person help her with a problem, and it just happens to be a guy. Is it so strange? You can't trust a strange? Never let one help you with anything? What if that person was another woman, everything would be fine then? I haven't watched that anime, but I don't see where exactly is there some sort of discrimination in this situation. She obeys his concerned orders because..... because it's important for her to stay "safe". It's important for him to be "manly". It made me completely doubt her sincerity in wanting to find what she lost. She had absolutely zero drive. That scene was written with the audience first, the characters second. Almost like fanservice in a way. So nowadays every case of depending on the opposite sex is considered sexism? That's going way too far. I bet if it was a man letting a woman help him, no one would ever think of it being sexist. |
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KLKfanboy said: It wasn't "letting" him help her.Red_Keys said: It's not about his actions, it's about her's. She obeys his concerned orders because..... because it's important for her to stay "safe". It's important for him to be "manly". It made me completely doubt her sincerity in wanting to find what she lost. She had absolutely zero drive. That scene was written with the audience first, the characters second. Almost like fanservice in a way. So nowadays every case of depending on the opposite sex is considered sexism? That's going way too far. I bet if it was a man letting a woman help him, no one would ever think of it being sexist. It was sitting on the ground and giving up because girly girls aren't supposed to be in "danger". |
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Red_Keys said: KLKfanboy said: It wasn't "letting" him help her.So nowadays every case of depending on the opposite sex is considered sexism? That's going way too far. I bet if it was a man letting a woman help him, no one would ever think of it being sexist. It was sitting on the ground and giving up because girly girls aren't supposed to be in "danger". I guess black lagoon is sexist agianst men then, because WEAK Rock is letting the STRONG Revy be in danger instead of him I call bullshit |
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| Oh good lord, can you actually pay attention to what I'm saying please? Her character was completely undermined. The entire episode she had frantic motivation to find her diary, only to suddenly revert to being passively apathetic at the end. And why? Because... "It's dangerous!!!", from a boy she doesn't even recognize. About. Fucking. Grass. It didn't make sense. |
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| Then it's bad writing and not sexism |
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KLKfanboy said: I guess black lagoon is sexist agianst men then, because WEAK Rock is letting the STRONG Revy be in danger instead of him I call bullshit Everything can be twisted into sexism against any gender. Take the classic Damsel in distress trope, it's the go to example of sexism against female characters. Yet, someone can twist that, and say, it's actually sexist against males, because female are held on high pedestals and high value, while male are just dispensable and aren't as important. Discussing sexism in fiction, is such a headache, let alone using it as actual criticism. |
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tsudecimo said: +1KLKfanboy said: I guess black lagoon is sexist agianst men then, because WEAK Rock is letting the STRONG Revy be in danger instead of him I call bullshit Everything can be twisted into sexism against any gender. Take the classic Damsel in distress trope, it's the go to example of sexism against female characters. Yet, someone can twist that, and say, it's actually sexist against males, because female are held on high pedestals and high value, while male are just dispensable and aren't as important. Discussing sexism in fiction, is such a headache, let alone using it as actual criticism. |
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KLKfanboy said: Bad writing motivated by sexism. The two generally go hand in hand.Then it's bad writing and not sexism |
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Milk_is_Special said: tsudecimo said: +1Everything can be twisted into sexism against any gender. Take the classic Damsel in distress trope, it's the go to example of sexism against female characters. Yet, someone can twist that, and say, it's actually sexist against males, because female are held on high pedestals and high value, while male are just dispensable and aren't as important. Discussing sexism in fiction, is such a headache, let alone using it as actual criticism. I know right? I just think the term is really, really overused, thrown at everything whenever there happens to be at least a little bit of a stereotype regarding a gender. Makes me sick. Totally kills the strength of the word, where real, serious sexism is being brought down to bullshit like the situation described above, which no woman ever should feel offended with. |
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Litrydow said: Code Geass NO FANSERVICE OR WOMAN OBJECTIFICATION Geez read the title Anyway, Highschool DxD |
| You specifically asked for Shounen that isn't sexist/fanservice-based, so I guess the only answers I can think of, one of which I hate (HxH): Soul Eater Hunter x Hunter I swear Hunter x Hunter is appealing to pedos with a taste in young boys or young boy yuri fantasies, but aside from that, it seems to handle females well..? Soul Eater in general seems to represent the female sex fairly, although I would be wary of the ending. If you want NON-shounen, I'd be glad to share some that fits these criteria. |
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
| Fanservice and sexism are the very definition of a shounen manga/anime. |
Red_Keys said: Bad writing motivated by sexism. The two generally go hand in hand. You two know your argument is invalid because Black Lagoon is not a shounen, right? |
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
Oneeyedwolf said: Now, only one shounen anime I've seen done this so perfectly, it's attack on titan. Never before I've seen a shounen anime treat woman as equals. Now the only anime that comes close to this is Fmab, but even that has some fan service and sexism in it. Is there any other shounen anime u can name that does it as good or better than attack on titan? I would really want to know. Mod Edit: spoiler warning added on the title. Fate Zero and Fate stay night. Saber is what you're looking for. |
ClefairiessJun 1, 2015 3:13 PM
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Crimefridge said: Red_Keys said: Bad writing motivated by sexism. The two generally go hand in hand. You two know your argument is invalid because Black Lagoon is not a shounen, right? Did you even bother to read the discussion? It was not about Black Lagoon, AND even if it was, that's not the point. |
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| ITT only shounen are sexist. Shoujo are sexist too. |
PoeticJustice said: ITT only shounen are sexist. Shoujo are sexist too. I wonder why we're talking about shounen sexism in this thread. It couldn't possibly be the OP. |
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| Some people need to differenciate between sexism and women being a women. |
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Clefairiess said: Some people need to differenciate between sexism and women being a women. The idea of "being a woman" can be sexist because it sets gender-specific expectations. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Clefairiess said: Some people need to differenciate between sexism and women being a women. The idea of "being a woman" can be sexist because it sets gender-specific expectations. oh expectations of a gender THAT'S SO SEXIST XDDDD |
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| Kids these days learns new words and they feel cool saying that word just because it sounds cool, without actually knowing what it means. I'm dying lol. |
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KLKfanboy said: AttackOnTetris said: The idea of "being a woman" can be sexist because it sets gender-specific expectations. oh expectations of a gender THAT'S SO SEXIST XDDDD Yeah, existing for the sole purpose of being eye candy for men is "sexist". And coincidentally, that's what "being a woman" entails for most shounen. |
HalkenburgJun 1, 2015 3:43 PM
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AttackOnTetris said: KLKfanboy said: oh expectations of a gender THAT'S SO SEXIST XDDDD Yeah, existing for the sole purpose of being eye candy for men is "sexist". And coincidentally, that's what "being a woman" entails for most shounen. Not at all. Well, I am not that experienced with shonen, but haven't watched a single one where this would be the case. |
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KLKfanboy said: That is sexist. That's actually like, the definition of sexism.AttackOnTetris said: The idea of "being a woman" can be sexist because it sets gender-specific expectations. oh expectations of a gender THAT'S SO SEXIST XDDDD You're confining and limiting people based on their sex. You're keeping them in designated jail cells, from which they are not allowed to escape. You are their thought police. Gender roles is sexism. |
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Red_Keys said: KLKfanboy said: That is sexist. That's actually like, the definition of sexism.oh expectations of a gender THAT'S SO SEXIST XDDDD You're confining and limiting people based on their sex. You're keeping them in designated jail cells, from which they are not allowed to escape. You are their thought police. Gender roles is sexism. No. Sexism is discrimination towards a person based on their gender. Having some expectations about a gender is perfectly normal and has nothing to do with sexism. Not having any is no different to denying the existence of genders. There are two genders, with different names, BECAUSE they are not the same and hence differences are to be expected. And expectations =/= gender roles so please don't be going there |
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