What is your opinion about people that support Socialism or Communism?
lupadim said: That's because communism necessarily needs to have gulags, right?icirate said: I guess someone really didn't learn with Stalin.Do I really need to explain this to you? It's a viable political strategy in certain economic conditions, i.e. one of overabundance. Therefore it's not impossible for an educated person to support it. I don't even need to bring up that educated people support almost every political theory under the sun anyway. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: It's simply inevitable.lupadim said: That's because communism necessarily needs to have gulags, right?I guess someone really didn't learn with Stalin. |
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ur inevitable |
| Kenjataimu mode status: 恒久 |
lupadim said: Communist Romania didn't have that.It's simply inevitable. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Looks at the options in the poll. *sigh* Why ask something you're not really inetersted in? Current Nordic model is close to socialism in some aspects as well. And I can't say that China seems that bad off, compared to, say, Somalia. Some socialist ideas are also pretty popular and actually used in most of the developped countries. It seems to me that the whole idea of welfare, as well as free medical help or free education - stuff like that - are very close to socialism. Btw, communism and socialism are not the same either. I am not well versed in the Marxist theory or even its adaptation in the socialist countries, but from our history I remember that what USSR had was socialism, communism was a goal to achieve, an utopia, where everybody gives to the society, what he or she can, and gets from it what he or she needs. And about the experience of living in a Socialist state - we've already learnt that most participants have second-hand experience, so I truly wonder, why people are still so hysterical about it. There were both bad and good aspects, and you need to check what is compared to what exactly. My experiece is also not first hand, though I basically sit on the ruins. My parents were fine during the soviet period. They remember the late 70s, when the system was stable and there was no hot war going on, as a good time. But as far as I get they didn't see the lack of jeans or the inability to travel outside of the eastern block as an issue. I dunno, maybe that's because they lived in a city. The interesting thing is that, as it turns out, it was possible, for example, to learn foreign languages, martial arts or art no problem or to visit restuarants, or to get a ticket to Crimea from your trade union to improve health. I mean, it was not only marching across the Soviet Mordor and digging dirt. Though, on the other hand, my father had to join the party to advance in rank. And I heard many stories about the "sausage trains". Though it is the late period os Socialist Russia, and the first half of its history was plagued with repressions, internal problems and war. On the other hand, the switch to capitalism was not gentle here. It was more of a disaster that killed people, cities and things in spirit, if not in form. (It eroded and killed my mother.) Many people dislike the current capitalistic model because of that. And while talking about capitalism, I can't help but wonder if we should talk about the world in general, since business is global nowadays. On one hand there're techy and effective business of western countries, and on the other there're outsourced factories in Asia. Are they the same? |
Immahnoob said: Of course the government wouldn't release the information to the public if people were ever murdered there anyway.lupadim said: Communist Romania didn't have that.It's simply inevitable. By the way, it seems 50% of the MAL community supports Communism (reliable data taken from statistics). This is not good. |
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| So are you gonna explain why China didn't work? |
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TyraMisoux said: Really? Today, China is extremely poor. Many Chinese have to work for 18 hours everyday, not to mention the many children that are forced to work. Of course China won't show that side to the public; Journalists have been prohibited of visiting poor parts of China. Hey, let's also remember the whole cooperation between them and North Korea, China is still oppressing and killing Christians and/or people that NK wants dead.So are you gonna explain why China didn't work? Maybe that is what is wrong with China? Not sure. |
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lupadim said: TyraMisoux said: Really? Today, China is extremely poor. Many Chinese have to work for 18 hours everyday, not to mention the many children that are forced to work. Of course China won't show that side to the public; Journalists have been prohibited of visiting poor parts of China. Hey, let's also remember the whole cooperation between them and North Korea, China is still oppressing and killing Christians and/or people that NK wants dead.So are you gonna explain why China didn't work? Maybe that is what is wrong with China? Not sure. But that sounds like the typical description of every third world country so where's the connection to Communism? |
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lupadim said: So you have no evidence but you'll still claim otherwise. Immahnoob said: Of course the government wouldn't release the information to the public if people were ever murdered there anyway.Communist Romania didn't have that. By the way, it seems 50% of the MAL community supports Communism (reliable data taken from statistics). This is not good. Why isn't it good? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: You deny a fact.lupadim said: So you have no evidence but you'll still claim otherwise.Of course the government wouldn't release the information to the public if people were ever murdered there anyway. By the way, it seems 50% of the MAL community supports Communism (reliable data taken from statistics). This is not good. TyraMisoux said: Is that even remotely serious? I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have ANY of the "qualities" I describedBut that sounds like the typical description of every third world country |
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lupadim said: Show me how it's a fact.Immahnoob said: You deny a fact.So you have no evidence but you'll still claim otherwise. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: All the Communist countries in the world have been silencing people and hiding that fact from the population. You claim that Romania was special and didn't kill a single person. You need to show evidence for that claim.lupadim said: Show me how it's a fact.You deny a fact. |
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lupadim said: TyraMisoux said: Is that even remotely serious? I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have ANY of the "qualities" I describedBut that sounds like the typical description of every third world country It's simple, you prolly don't live in a third world country then. |
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TyraMisoux said: Since when did Brazil become a first world country?lupadim said: It's simple, you prolly don't live in a third world country then.Is that even remotely serious? I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have ANY of the "qualities" I described |
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lupadim said: China is extremely poor. Overtook U.S.'s economy late last year. Technically number 1 globally. I don't think you know what 'extremely' means. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
lupadim said: No, I claim that there were no gulags during the time which I know best, AKA Ceausescu's time. The rest of the communist leaders did jack shit that was notable. Immahnoob said: All the Communist countries in the world have been silencing people and hiding that fact from the population. You claim that Romania was special and didn't kill a single person. You need to show evidence for that claim.Show me how it's a fact. Silencing? There were, not as many as you may think during Ceausescu. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
lupadim said: TyraMisoux said: Since when did Brazil become a first world country?It's simple, you prolly don't live in a third world country then. Lol, and then you accuse me of not being serious... |
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icirate said: I don't think you know what wealth distribution means. China could be 100000x more rich than the U.S, if all that wealth is concentrated on the pockets of one person, it's useless.lupadim said: China is extremely poor. Overtook U.S.'s economy late last year. Technically number 1 globally. I don't think you know what 'extremely' means. Immahnoob said: Exactly, thanks for agreeinglupadim said: Silencing? There wereAll the Communist countries in the world have been silencing people and hiding that fact from the population. You claim that Romania was special and didn't kill a single person. You need to show evidence for that claim. TyraMisoux said: Didn't you say that I don't live in a third world country?lupadim said: Lol, and then you accuse me of not being serious...Since when did Brazil become a first world country? |
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lupadim said: Surely, there was no silencing during democratic and capitalistic times, right?Exactly, thanks for agreeing |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: The scale and the reasons for silencing are different.lupadim said: Surely, there was no silencing during democratic and capitalistic times, right?Exactly, thanks for agreeing |
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lupadim said: Didn't you say that I don't live in a third world country? What I'm trying to say is, that you don't even know where to position your own country and then you start spacing out about socialism/communism. |
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TyraMisoux said: Aren't you the one that doesn't know how to position countries by saying that Brazil is a first world country?lupadim said: What I'm trying to say is, that you don't even know where to position your own country and then you start spacing out about socialism/communism.Didn't you say that I don't live in a third world country? |
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lupadim said: Prove it. You actually had the burden of proof since the beginning.Immahnoob said: The scale and the reasons for silencing are different.Surely, there was no silencing during democratic and capitalistic times, right? You claimed that communism was the same for every country that had communism to which you had no proof, and I simply told you that Romania didn't because of no gulags, which is true, during Ceausescu there were no gulags. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
lupadim said: icirate said: I don't think you know what wealth distribution means. China could be 100000x more rich than the U.S, if all that wealth is concentrated on the pockets of one person, it's useless.Overtook U.S.'s economy late last year. Technically number 1 globally. I don't think you know what 'extremely' means. If you're not going to accept relative wealth as a metric for judging the relative wealth of a country then you shouldn't make statements like that in the first place. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Immahnoob said: Nope, the burden of proof is still on you. You claimed that Romania doesn't have deaths; I asked you to prove it. You then confessed that there WERE deaths, and to justify that you said that Capitalism has deaths too. Luckly, your argument is invalid because it is fallacious. Thus, you are yet to give any valid argumentation.lupadim said: Prove it. You actually had the burden of proof since the beginning.The scale and the reasons for silencing are different. You claimed that communism was the same for every country that had communism to which you had no proof, and I simply told you that Romania didn't because of no gulags, which is true, during Ceausescu there were no gulags. icirate said: You're just proving that Communism is a contradictory ideology. Isn't it all about making all people equal? If wealth distribution is fucked up in China, then how did Communism even work there?lupadim said: If you're not going to accept relative wealth as a metric for judging the relative wealth of a country then you shouldn't make statements like that in the first place.I don't think you know what wealth distribution means. China could be 100000x more rich than the U.S, if all that wealth is concentrated on the pockets of one person, it's useless. |
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lupadim said: TyraMisoux said: Aren't you the one that doesn't know how to position countries by saying that Brazil is a first world country?What I'm trying to say is, that you don't even know where to position your own country and then you start spacing out about socialism/communism. I never claimed Brazil to be a first world country actually. It's one of the "Newly industrialized countries". Which brings me back to my initial question what does a third world country have to do with communism/socialism? |
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TyraMisoux said: You were the one that started bringing up first world/third world countries, those were completely irrelevant to the initial point.lupadim said: I never claimed Brazil to be a first world country actually. It's one of the "Newly industrialized countries". Which brings me back to my initial question what does a third world country have to do with communism/socialism?Aren't you the one that doesn't know how to position countries by saying that Brazil is a first world country? Let me remember what happened: I stated that China is in a bad situation. You asked me why. I stated: Because A, B, C, X, Y and Z. You stated that all those qualities are typical from third world countries. I protested, saying that I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have any of those qualities. You said that I don't live in a third world country. I laughed and said that I live in Brazil and Brazil is a third world country. You said that I don't know how to position my country. I said that you were the one that claimed Brazil was a first world country in the first place. You said that you never claimed that. Now I am proving to you that you did. |
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lupadim said: I said that you were the one that claimed Brazil was a first world country in the first place. Please rub under my nose where I wrote about Brazil being a first world county. Please. |
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TyraMisoux said: Okay.lupadim said: Please rub under my nose where I wrote about Brazil being a first world county. Please.I said that you were the one that claimed Brazil was a first world country in the first place. lupadim said: I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have ANY of the "qualities" I described TyraMisoux said: It's simple, you prolly don't live in a third world country then. |
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lupadim said: I just disproved this claim. Don't be willfully ignorant.Nope, the burden of proof is still on you. #102 was yours. #103 was a question from me asking for proof. You didn't comply and simply said something retarded, to which I told you that you're wrong, as usual, that's how arguments go. Especially with you, nonetheless. lupadim said: Strawman, I claimed there were no gulags during Ceausescu. You claimed that Romania doesn't have deaths; lupadim said: That was your argument, that Communism is worse because of deaths, considering that's what you answered icirate when he claimed someone educated could support communism.You then confessed that there WERE deaths, and to justify that you said that Capitalism has deaths too. lupadim said: Luckily, you don't know how "Tu Quoque" works, considering that's part of Ad hominem, and my claim was never directed at you, but rather at your argument.Luckly, your argument is invalid because it is fallacious. Thus, you are yet to give any valid argumentation. If your argument is "Deaths by silencing are bad, deaths by silencing happened during communism, thus communism is bad", I can simply answer the same way by using other systems that have done the same, like the egregious (archaic use) capitalism and egregious (archaic use) democracy. Don't play the fallacy game with me next time. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: All I see is a mix of "tu quoque", "ad hominem" and you trying to throw the burden of proof on me. You won't success because you are yet to prove your initial point about Romania. How hard can it be to develop YOUR arguments instead of trying to invalidate mine?lupadim said: I just disproved this claim. Don't be willfully ignorant.Nope, the burden of proof is still on you. #102 was yours. #103 was a question from me asking for proof. You didn't comply and simply said something retarded, to which I told you that you're wrong, as usual, that's how arguments go. Especially with you, nonetheless. lupadim said: Strawman, I claimed there were no gulags during Ceausescu. You claimed that Romania doesn't have deaths; lupadim said: That was your argument, that Communism is worse because of deaths, considering that's what you answered icirate when he claimed someone educated could support communism.You then confessed that there WERE deaths, and to justify that you said that Capitalism has deaths too. lupadim said: Luckily, you don't know how "Tu Quoque" works, considering that's part of Ad hominem, and my claim was never directed at you, but rather at your argument.Luckly, your argument is invalid because it is fallacious. Thus, you are yet to give any valid argumentation. If your argument is "Deaths by silencing are bad, deaths by silencing happened during communism, thus communism is bad", I can simply answer the same way by using other systems that have done the same, like the egregious (archaic use) capitalism and egregious (archaic use) democracy. Don't play the fallacy game with me next time. |
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lupadim said: Prove it...All I see is a mix of "tu quoque", lupadim said: Prove itttt..."ad hominem" lupadim said: Prooooveeeee ittttttttt.and you trying to throw the burden of proof on me. lupadim said: Succeed you mean.You won't success lupadim said: I don't need to, you must first provide sources for your claims.because you are yet to prove your initial point about Romania. lupadim said: I'm not in the mood to "developeh" when the opposition isn't.How hard can it be to develop YOUR arguments instead of trying to invalidate mine? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: And you're still trying to throw the burden of proof on me. You're being fallacious yet again.lupadim said: Prove it...All I see is a mix of "tu quoque", lupadim said: Prove itttt..."ad hominem" lupadim said: Prooooveeeee ittttttttt.and you trying to throw the burden of proof on me. lupadim said: Succeed you mean.You won't success lupadim said: I don't need to, you must first provide sources for your claims.because you are yet to prove your initial point about Romania. lupadim said: I'm not in the mood to "developeh" when the opposition isn't.How hard can it be to develop YOUR arguments instead of trying to invalidate mine? |
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| Prove it, I already disproved your accusation here: Immahnoob said: I just disproved this claim. Don't be willfully ignorant. #102 was yours. #103 was a question from me asking for proof. You didn't comply and simply said something retarded, to which I told you that you're wrong, as usual, that's how arguments go. Especially with you, nonetheless. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: I already said that although it is impossible to prove that gulags took place in Romania, there were still several deaths there; YOU admitted to that, thus losing the debate several minutes ago (as usual from you)Prove it, I already disproved your accusation here: Immahnoob said: I just disproved this claim. Don't be willfully ignorant. #102 was yours. #103 was a question from me asking for proof. You didn't comply and simply said something retarded, to which I told you that you're wrong, as usual, that's how arguments go. Especially with you, nonetheless. |
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lupadim said: TyraMisoux said: Okay.Please rub under my nose where I wrote about Brazil being a first world county. Please. lupadim said: I live in a third world country and my country doesn't have ANY of the "qualities" I described TyraMisoux said: It's simple, you prolly don't live in a third world country then. Oh, gaawd, I hope you're only playing dumb otherwise you're just plain stupid then. |
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lupadim said: So you agree with me.I already said that although it is impossible to prove that gulags took place in Romania lupadim said: And that happened during capitalism and democracy too, you agreed with that, it seems you're not following the argument properly., there were still several deaths there You said someone educated would not support communism. But by your argument, they wouldn't support any other system. lupadim said: You're just this easy.YOU admitted to that, thus losing the debate several minutes ago (as usual from you) TyraMisoux said: He's trying really hard, just take the bait. Oh, gaawd, I hope you're only playing dumb otherwise you're just plain stupid then. Empathy, just provide a bit of empathy for this lost Lupadim. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
TyraMisoux said: That's ad hominem; You're not addressing my argument.Oh, gaawd, I hope you're only playing dumb otherwise you're just plain stupid then. Immahnoob said: Not really, I just did some bad wording at first.So you agree with me. |
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lupadim said: So you're changing goalposts now?Not really, I just did some bad wording at first. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Dragon88 said: First there is a difference between socialism and communism. Communism is just crazy and just no. With socialism, there is lot of good things but ultimately I would say no to it too. One thing is that no one system is perfect be it communism, socialism or capitalist. Because even countries like US, England, France, Germany and so on are not completely capitalist country. There are lot of social things within the countries. No one system is perfect, you have take good things from different system. The best economies are actually mixed economy which are somewhere between socialism and capitalism. We cannot have a society with pure capitalism and free market because then you would have huge gaps between rich and poor and create lot of inequalities and ultimately is detrimental to the whole society as a whole. You also cannot have a society with pure socialism because then you impede technological innovations and basically take motivations from people to work hard and try best. And no matter what everyone is not equal in a society. Some people will always be more successful and you have to allow that in a fair way without taking advantage of people that are less capable. That is why the best economies are mixed where capitalism is the main form of economy but at the same time you have social policies such as healthcare, social security, and lot of government funded programs to help people that are less fortunate. I mostly approve of this post. Two remarks though: - Can't say for US, England or France but Germany is not socialistic, it's a welfare state per constitution. - "We cannot have a society with pure capitalism and free market because then you would have huge gaps between rich and poor and create lot of inequalities and ultimately is detrimental to the whole society as a whole." Yes we can, those are mostly the BRICS states and those that sell oil (OPEC). |
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Immahnoob said: The goalpost was always one, I just did some bad wording at first.lupadim said: So you're changing goalposts now?Not really, I just did some bad wording at first. |
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lupadim said: Fix it then. I'll allow it.Immahnoob said: The goalpost was always one, I just did some bad wording at first.So you're changing goalposts now? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: It's not up to you though.lupadim said: Fix it then. I'll allow it.The goalpost was always one, I just did some bad wording at first. |
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lupadim said: It is, I'm the one arguing you.Immahnoob said: It's not up to you though.Fix it then. I'll allow it. You need my consent to change your argument.  |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: But you never had my consent to commit fallacies, how can that be fair?lupadim said: It is, I'm the one arguing you.It's not up to you though. You need my consent to change your argument. |
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lupadim said: I never did commit fallacies though. And even if I would have, that doesn't change anything. Or do you want to commit a Tu Quoque here? Immahnoob said: But you never had my consent to commit fallacies, how can that be fair?It is, I'm the one arguing you. You need my consent to change your argument. I disproved each one of your accusation, actually going out of my way to do that when the burden of proof was on you. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: And how does that justify the fact you claim that I need your consent to change my argument if I never even wanted to change it in the first place?I never did commit fallacies though. And even if I would have, that doesn't change anything. Or do you want to commit a Tu Quoque here? I disproved each one of your accusation, actually going out of my way to do that when the burden of proof was on you. |
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lupadim said: If you don't want to change it, that's fine.Immahnoob said: And how does that justify the fact you claim that I need your consent to change my argument if I never even wanted to change it in the first place?I never did commit fallacies though. And even if I would have, that doesn't change anything. Or do you want to commit a Tu Quoque here? I disproved each one of your accusation, actually going out of my way to do that when the burden of proof was on you. It means you now have a history of shifting the burden of proof, being willfully ignorant and falsely accusing me of fallacies. I was simply being benevolent, it's all up to you if you accept it.  |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
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