RLinksoul said: Not to mention that Madoka has no agency as a protagonist for the vast majority of the show, and the only way to change that is for her to sacrifice herself. I never understood that. Did the focus on Madoka disappear, so that she can't be considered a protagonist in the series? Because that's what I would point as the defining trait to talk about protagonism. I mean, she is not an active character in the fighting events for most of the story but she still actively drives the storyline of the series and almost everything in the show passes through her viewpoint and judgement. |
Monad said: King_of_Devils said: You confuse me, why does a character have to be a role model (lol) or some goody-too-shoes to be considered "strong" or "brave"?? I thought the same after reading that. What I mean is that they weren't positive characters for the female image. They were loli-con with mental trauma, except Madoka, who doesn't act like a human being. |
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Crimefridge said: What I mean is that they weren't positive characters for the female image. But the OP/Topic (IIRC) was about Women who were Brave and Strong. You do'nt have to be "Positive to the female image" to fit those categories |
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Crimefridge said: Monad said: I thought the same after reading that. What I mean is that they weren't positive characters for the female image. They were loli-con with mental trauma, except Madoka, who doesn't act like a human being. Except for Homura and Kyouko, I can't think of a single character in this series who had mental trauma as a set trait. Sayaka is debatable if we consider later developed ones, though. |
RLinksoul said: jal90 said: I mean, she is not an active character in the fighting events for most of the story but she still actively drives the storyline of the series and almost everything in the show passes through her viewpoint and judgement. She doesn't have to fight in order to be a protagonist (even though it IS supposed to be a magical girl warrior show) but it just feels like her actions in the show are largely ineffectual. All she manages to do is get Mami killed via rousing speech to highlight the show's cruelty, and nearly get Sayaka killed to reveal the shocking truth about Soul Gems. Basically the PMMM equivalent of wanting Shinji to get in the robot. Not that I disagree -except for the comparison with Shinji, because Madoka has the will to help- but I don't see how this makes her less of a protagonist. It's just the association between protagonist and agent/actor what I don't agree with here (anyway, it seems I misread your comment here on this aspect). Madoka could even have been an observer the whole time, and she wouldn't be less of a main character. |
RLinksoul said: jal90 said: Not that I disagree -except for the comparison with Shinji, because Madoka has the will to help- but I don't see how this makes she less of a protagonist. It's just the association between protagonist and agent/actor what I don't agree with here. Madoka could even have been an observer the whole time, and she wouldn't be less of a main character. Maybe it's because of the amount of deception the show went through. From the moment we saw the promos we saw Madoka in costume. The show's named after her so you'd think she would have a stronger impact on the story despite it apparently revolving around her. The show's supposed to be about her becoming a magical girl, not crying and watching her friends suffer and die. Go to the threads on here for the episodes around 5-9 and see how many times someone questions when Madoka's finally gonna become a magical girl. People who finished the show love to bash people who wonder when Madoka's gonna finally do something of significance, but chances are their comments were in there as well, unless they knew already. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DecoyProtagonist |
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RLinksoul said: Being the object that a character has to struggle to rescue doesn't mean that character herself has an impact on the story. Madoka doesn't really do anything to move the story herself until the very end. In fact it feels like her character doesn't really go anywhere until episode 11, where she realizes what she needs to do and puts aside the tears to become hardcore. If anything it's more Homura's story, Madoka's just the viewpoint character. Again, because she can't. If she was able to, then Homura's plans would go into ruin being that Homuhomu doesn't want her to do anything that may turn her MG, endanger her, and the like. However, being that Madoka TRIES to do something of importance despite two forces that basically tries to control her every move (Homu and Kyubey) is very respectable. Yes, I agree it is more of Homu's story (That's why I have linked the decoy protagonist thing), but saying that Madoka does not do anything of importance to the story other than 11 and 12 is kind of pushing it. I mean, what Madoka does to the story does not have to be necessarily good, either. being that She also stopped Hitomi from committing sudoku, helped Sayaka with her emotional problems (although she still git fucked up in the end), and is one of the main reason why the story even exists. |
AzureDaoraMar 27, 2015 6:30 PM
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| Regarding Crimefridge's complaints, I think that Monad never tried to set these female characters as examples of role-models or admirable characters. Simply, characters who were brave or could show strength. In an action/war context, this would mean being efficient and decisive in battle. Admirable characters to me are another thing. The best example I can think for this is Mrs. Brisby from Bluth's The secret of NIMH. She is physically weak, and a scaredy cat character, but I find her to be one of the most admirable female characters in fiction, precisely because instead of conveniently getting rid of her fears and limitations through the journey, she manages to do something really impressive while having to deal with them. |
shawnofthedeadz said: I think the problem isn't strong female leads, its strong female leads in an anime which is targeted at women. Sure, there are a ton of females who are powerful, strong and etc, but a lot of them are also sexy imaginations of male desires. So, sexy imagination of male desires cannot be strong, brave, and independent characters? why? This argument is keep repeating in this thread, yet none has really explained why? |
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5Wishes said: azzuRe said: So, sexy imagination of male desires cannot be strong, brave, and independent characters? why? This argument is keep repeating in this thread, yet none has really explained why? I would think it's because it makes women think you have to appeal to the male gaze to be strong, brave and independent characters. Character who are sexy can have those traits but they're a hell of a lot harder to relate and look up to. Sadly there are too many examples like this, just like what happened with the Tomb Raider series. Prior to the newest series, Lara Croft was a strong battle hardened and well rounded characters, yet just because she was having the anatomy of sex dolls most people dismissed her best feature as a character, a strong and brave independent adult woman. Later on this was toned down, they also made Lara more 'relate-able' by making her emotionally insecure and showing some vague damsel in distress helplessness, not to mention the attempted rape-scene.. guess what, they praised it as good depiction of strong woman should be... |
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5Wishes said: azzuRe said: Sadly there are too many examples like this, just like what happened with the Tomb Raider series. Prior to the newest series, Lara Croft was a strong battle hardened and well rounded characters, yet just because she was having the anatomy of sex dolls most people dismissed her best feature as a character, a strong and brave independent adult woman. Later on this was toned down, they also made Lara more 'relate-able' by making her emotionally insecure and showing some vague damsel in distress helplessness, not to mention the attempted rape-scene.. guess what, they praised it as good depiction of strong woman should be... Does she end up getting development in the end? Personally, I define a strong character by their development. Like Youko from Juuni Kokuki. Started horrible, weak, emotionally insecure and selfish but ended up a powerful, charismatic queen. Indeed character development is one of its strong part that I actually liked about it. The real problem was actually the producer has to try very hard to depict her as 'just an ordinary woman' to do so while in essence she is still the Lara Croft, the tomb raider. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| My girls have balls (not literally though) |
| Apparently everyone doesn´t have the same concept of fanservice. What about females that use their sex appeal to have their way? Like Faye from Bebop? Are those fanservice as well? The question I want to ask is: Can an anime female character have a cruvy/voloptous/whatever word you want to use body without people saying "fanservice, this character sucks" |
Soul-Master said: Apparently everyone doesn´t have the same concept of fanservice. What about females that use their sex appeal to have their way? Like Faye from Bebop? Are those fanservice as well? The question I want to ask is: Can an anime female character have a cruvy/voloptous/whatever word you want to use body without people saying "fanservice, this character sucks" Yes, but it depends on camera angles. How a director/animator shoots a woman depends on whether or not they're catering to the male gaze and thus reducing a female character to her sexual appeal. When directors/animators choose to include fanservice they are undermining the character's story arc, because the focus goes from the character as a whole to how much people think they're attractive. This is valid for male and female characters, but lbr here female characters are fanserviced out a lot more then male ones. It doesn't even have to be about nudity. This includes those unnecessary maid uniform, bikini, panty shot, etc fanservice moments. The problem I have with Yoko in Gurren Lagann isn't that she wears a bikini, it's a damn desert, it's how many camera zooms are onto her chest or between her legs. The fact that her tits are more recognizable then her face is a problem. |
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5Wishes said: azzuRe said: So, sexy imagination of male desires cannot be strong, brave, and independent characters? why? This argument is keep repeating in this thread, yet none has really explained why? I would think it's because it makes women think you have to appeal to the male gaze to be strong, brave and independent characters. Characters who are sexy can have those traits but they're a hell of a lot harder to relate and look up to. And i think it's just because most girls get annoyed by such characters due to insecurity and social parenting(play hard to get, don't be a slut, look out how you dress etc). Our society likes putting girls sexuality in a shell and make them being dishonest and hide it. Actually a really strong character is more than likely to also not have a problem throwing her sexuality around because she is strong enough to not be fearful of a male gaze or society gossipers. Not only that she will even use her sexuality as a weapon if she needs do. She is not scared playing with men or being honest with her sexual nature. 5Wishes said: Personally, I define a strong character by their development. Like Youko from Juuni Kokuki. Started horrible, weak, emotionally insecure and selfish but ended up a powerful, charismatic queen. Sorry but i think that is ridiculous way to watch characters. Always demanding them to be weak and pathetic just so you can get the supposed "development". To me a cancer of storytelling is this silly demand of this "development" where the cheapest trick is the weak pathetic to later doing shit thing. It's an overused easy way out to create a story were you can claim you "build" characters. This "development" is nothing but bullshit. All that matters is how a character is presented and the storyline, for the character to be good. The greatest female characters i saw never were like this anyway. They couldn't be because that is just cheap "rise to power" thing. the same used for shounen male fighting protagonist and they are kind of shit too. A great character doesn't need to have this "OMG LOOK LOOK IT's TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOW" in you face shit. Any development can be subtle and in small details. Kusanagi Motogo is a character most people find mature and awesome and she never was a crybaby(also notice she has no problem with her sexuality as she a very interdependent person despite Ghost in the Shell not being some fanservive type anime at all). Makise Kurisu that also is considered by most as a great female character didn't change from one end to the other ether. Isayama Yomi nether etc. Many of the most amazing female characters never started as this undeveloped useless people. I literally hate this admiration for "development" by starting with an incompetent fool. Of course you will have a tone of things to add to that character since you started with such an incompetence fool. That is just too easy and lazy. King_of_Devils said: Crimefridge said: What I mean is that they weren't positive characters for the female image. But the OP/Topic (IIRC) was about Women who were Brave and Strong. You do'nt have to be "Positive to the female image" to fit those categories Again you said what i was thinking. If the role of every strong or brave female was to be some role model then we wouldn't be talking about anime but old bantering Disney cartoons. |
MonadMar 28, 2015 5:29 AM
crystal_3001 said: Soul-Master said: Apparently everyone doesn´t have the same concept of fanservice. What about females that use their sex appeal to have their way? Like Faye from Bebop? Are those fanservice as well? The question I want to ask is: Can an anime female character have a cruvy/voloptous/whatever word you want to use body without people saying "fanservice, this character sucks" Yes, but it depends on camera angles. How a director/animator shoots a woman depends on whether or not they're catering to the male gaze and thus reducing a female character to her sexual appeal. When directors/animators choose to include fanservice they are undermining the character's story arc, because the focus goes from the character as a whole to how much people think they're attractive. This is valid for male and female characters, but lbr here female characters are fanserviced out a lot more then male ones. It doesn't even have to be about nudity. This includes those unnecessary maid uniform, bikini, panty shot, etc fanservice moments. The problem I have with Yoko in Gurren Lagann isn't that she wears a bikini, it's a damn desert, it's how many camera zooms are onto her chest or between her legs. The fact that her tits are more recognizable then her face is a problem. So you say that the problem isn't the character but the directing can annoy a female watcher in that case but the character can still be great and there is nothing wrong with being revealing. |
DejWo said: 1. They have not seen that much 2. They want to think that they are watching something better due to girl having some courage and they are willfully ignoring the rest to suit it. |
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| The hypocrisy in this thread tho. |
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All of the above came across to me as being pretty strong females. None of them were particularly sexualized aside from Misato. It'd be interesting to hear anyone rebut these without being dismissive and wholly negative like Crimefridge ;o I was tempted to add Casca from Berserk but I'd imagine she'd just be trivialized as someone to be with Guts >__> (I can kinda see why though) |
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Vexper said: All of the above came across to me as being pretty strong females. None of them were particularly sexualized aside from Misato. It'd be interesting to hear anyone rebut these without being dismissive and wholly negative like Crimefridge ;o I was tempted to add Casca from Berserk but I'd imagine she'd just be trivialized as someone to be with Guts >__> (I can kinda see why though) Misato a strong and brave character? lol you have got to be joking..... |
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Monad said: crystal_3001 said: Yes, but it depends on camera angles. How a director/animator shoots a woman depends on whether or not they're catering to the male gaze and thus reducing a female character to her sexual appeal. When directors/animators choose to include fanservice they are undermining the character's story arc, because the focus goes from the character as a whole to how much people think they're attractive. This is valid for male and female characters, but lbr here female characters are fanserviced out a lot more then male ones. It doesn't even have to be about nudity. This includes those unnecessary maid uniform, bikini, panty shot, etc fanservice moments. The problem I have with Yoko in Gurren Lagann isn't that she wears a bikini, it's a damn desert, it's how many camera zooms are onto her chest or between her legs. The fact that her tits are more recognizable then her face is a problem. So you say that the problem isn't the character but the directing can annoy a female watcher in that case but the character can still be great and there is nothing wrong with being revealing. Anime is not created in a vacuum. Nothing is. How a director or the animation team decides to shoot a scene has meaning. What they choose to put up on the screen has meaning. So when they choose to do a long pan shot on a woman, but don't do the same for male characters yes they're pandering to the male gaze. When they decide to insert those fanservice moments they are doing so with the knowledge that they're pandering to a specific audience. They are banking on the fact you'll buy merchandise not because you like the character or admire them, but because sex sells. So the nudity is not the problem. The clothes are not the problem. It's how those women are filmed and how the director/anime team chooses to present those characters to the audience. Also there's a lot of problems with how women are treated by the storyline as well. 1 Female characters in anime tend to be accessories or devices used to move along the male MCs storyline. 2 Females tend not to be the center of the plot, their male counterparts are even when they're both "MCs". 3 Female 'good guys' are never, as strong as, the male protagonist. In the rare times they are physically stronger they're insane or waiting for the male protag to surpass them. Also depending on genre they're obsessed/in love with/like the male protag. So again their entire character becomes centered around the main male protag. 4 Strong female characters are also frequently gutted of all agency to make them damsels in distress for the lead male to rescue. 5 Also women are allowed to be strong in traditionally feminine ways, which usually require that they be dependent upon the male character to actually do something. Which if you're watching an action show means that they're not doing much other then cheering on the male protag. The above is also true for shows aimed at women. Think typical shoujo heroine that cries for her man to save her. It can be infuriating. So now we have Yona who is a shoujo/reverse harem heroine who does things. (I don't think you realize how big that is.) Who is the Main Character in a traditionally male storyline, the dethroned monarch taking back their throne. While she relies upon the men around her to help her, she is also taking part in fighting. It's a fantasy hero's journey with a female lead. This is rare in anime. Hell it's rare period. So yes, we're going to sing it's praises so that they know there is a market for this type of show. |
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5Wishes said: I define a strong character by their development. No Offence, but I find that to be a ridiculous way to define strength considering by that standard you can have 2 characters that are exactly the same in every way, but dismiss one of them cuz he/she did'nt start out as a Gutless Wimp. It's not the strength you're talking about, it's the training montage. P.S: Character Development is overrated anyway |
King_of_HereticsMar 28, 2015 6:45 AM
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Malicre said: Misato a strong and brave character? lol you have got to be joking..... No I'm not joking. She carried tremendous emotional baggage yet still displayed run of the mill human characteristics and acted extremely professional in her job. She was probably the most human person on the entire show as she showed the widest range of emotions and revealed different layers of her personality depending on who she was talking to without changing her character entirely. That's just for starters if I'm honest. I'd suggest a rewatch fella. |
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Balong said: Darklord_bg said: You imply that Kirito and Kamina are taken seriously as characters? In mouth of fans, It looks they're really "serious" characters... silversongwriter said: Kamina should be... See... Please…Kamina may be entertaining and likeable but he is not a serious character. His personality is ridiculous and it only works because he is in a show where being over-the-top ridiculous is the norm. Also, he is just as much a fanservice character as the girls you talk about – walking shirtless, cool shades, katana. I don’t think people who like him take him seriously, but they just enjoy him being on screen, which is just what you claim for sexualized females, if I’m not mistaken. Also, Kirito…the most ridiculously bland, boring and overpowered protagonist in recent anime…yeah, I don’t think anyone is taking him seriously, unless it is one of the first animes you watch. _P5 said: Why are people so aggressive when it comes to females in anime? Men can be represented in the exact same way. Because double standards… 5Wishes said: azzuRe said: So, sexy imagination of male desires cannot be strong, brave, and independent characters? why? This argument is keep repeating in this thread, yet none has really explained why? I would think it's because it makes women think you have to appeal to the male gaze to be strong, brave and independent characters. Characters who are sexy can have those traits but they're a hell of a lot harder to relate and look up to. You are mistaking correlation with causation. “Most female characters who are brave and independent are also sexy. The two characteristics must be related.” You see the fallacy in this argument? There’s nothing that proves that a female characters needs to be sexy in order to be brave and independent. Of course it is more pleasant for the male viewers, but again this is a separate subject. The subject of this topic is that some people claim that brave and powerful female characters are a rarity nowadays – which is simply not true. |
| The main issue with this current discussion is not so much that characters aren't brought under a specific intention, if anything it is that characters can and usually do cover many. Being played for fanservice is a sign of catering to the audience, but so is being portrayed as proficient, strong, emotionally compelling and so on. You can't say that Motoko wearing revealing outfits denies the charm of the character as a sci-fi protagonist, because the contrary isn't true either. A character can represent various points of interest for the audience, and picking one is not enough of a reason to ignore the rest. |
crystal_3001 said: Monad said: So you say that the problem isn't the character but the directing can annoy a female watcher in that case but the character can still be great and there is nothing wrong with being revealing. Anime is not created in a vacuum. Nothing is. How a director or the animation team decides to shoot a scene has meaning. What they choose to put up on the screen has meaning. So when they choose to do a long pan shot on a woman, but don't do the same for male characters yes they're pandering to the male gaze. When they decide to insert those fanservice moments they are doing so with the knowledge that they're pandering to a specific audience. They are banking on the fact you'll buy merchandise not because you like the character or admire them, but because sex sells. So the nudity is not the problem. The clothes are not the problem. It's how those women are filmed and how the director/anime team chooses to present those characters to the audience. Also there's a lot of problems with how women are treated by the storyline as well. 1 Female characters in anime tend to be accessories or devices used to move along the male MCs storyline. 2 Females tend not to be the center of the plot, their male counterparts are even when they're both "MCs". 3 Female 'good guys' are never, as strong as, the male protagonist. In the rare times they are physically stronger they're insane or waiting for the male protag to surpass them. Also depending on genre they're obsessed/in love with/like the male protag. So again their entire character becomes centered around the main male protag. 4 Strong female characters are also frequently gutted of all agency to make them damsels in distress for the lead male to rescue. 5 Also women are allowed to be strong in traditionally feminine ways, which usually require that they be dependent upon the male character to actually do something. Which if you're watching an action show means that they're not doing much other then cheering on the male protag. The above is also true for shows aimed at women. Think typical shoujo heroine that cries for her man to save her. It can be infuriating. So now we have Yona who is a shoujo/reverse harem heroine who does things. (I don't think you realize how big that is.) Who is the Main Character in a traditionally male storyline, the dethroned monarch taking back their throne. While she relies upon the men around her to help her, she is also taking part in fighting. It's a fantasy hero's journey with a female lead. This is rare in anime. Hell it's rare period. So yes, we're going to sing it's praises so that they know there is a market for this type of show. "Not created in a vacuum" "damsel in distress" "dent to be accessories" Seriously stop watching Anita Sarkeesian is hurting your brain. We were having a decent conversation but now you went or feminist bullshit on me. None of what you said are facts at all. 1) That's what happens to all sub-characters whether they are male or female. If the MC is male of course that will be true. But so will be true for other male characters in his anime. They will also just be there to advance his story. But you just conveniently ignore their non so great role. Sorry that is no argument. 2)Not the center of the plot? Most of the anime i put they are. Also sometimes not be center of the plot doesn't mean you ain't the coolest stronger character. Many times the MC just seem stupid while the non centered character is made more awesome. 3)Most male MC are in-love with a female character too. That is called romance and is just put there cause people like that element in their stories not because "OMG, we have to make her depend on a male". Never as strong as the male. Bullshit. Plenty of times are as strong or stronger or there is no significant male MC. 4) That's too much feminist bullshit for me to even comment about. 5)Also saying that they depend on a male character to do something is quite the bullshit because even if the MC is male and the anime has a strong female fighter too then usually the male MC also depends on her a few times doing something, by saying that you are trying to do a catch that will always make you seem right since when an MC has allies at one point it will depend on them doing something. There wouldn't be a purpose for them otherwise whether they are male or female. Look when you want to be Sarkeesian type of complainer it's easy. Males can do it do. Just put anime in what his saying in this videos instead of movies, clips and games and there you have it since you did the same by pulling Sarkeesians arguments for anime in your post. Is easy to be a complainer and play the obsessed. You can always find something to complain. |
worldeditor11 said: crystal_3001 said: Anime is not created in a vacuum. Nothing is. How a director or the animation team decides to shoot a scene has meaning. What they choose to put up on the screen has meaning. So when they choose to do a long pan shot on a woman, but don't do the same for male characters yes they're pandering to the male gaze. When they decide to insert those fanservice moments they are doing so with the knowledge that they're pandering to a specific audience. They are banking on the fact you'll buy merchandise not because you like the character or admire them, but because sex sells. So the nudity is not the problem. The clothes are not the problem. It's how those women are filmed and how the director/anime team chooses to present those characters to the audience. I agree with you that the method of depiction is important. However, i can't agree with you that only female anime characters receive the damsel in distress treatment when males too, are having it but less jarring compared to their girly counterpart. Even most of the 5 points you brought up support this somehow or rather. 1.Female characters in anime tend to be accessories or devices used to move along the male MCs storyline. Male characters in anime tend to be accessories or devices used to move along the male MCs' storyline as they should. Otherwise, they would be written off as one of the main characters and not as supporting characters. 2 Females tend not to be the center of the plot, their male counterparts are even when they're both "MCs". But this just doesn't apply specifically to anime only. Tons of fiction can be categorised as this. Is the matter of how severe the "offense" is. 3 Female 'good guys' are never, as strong as, the male protagonist. In the rare times they are physically stronger they're insane or waiting for the male protag to surpass them. Also depending on genre they're obsessed/in love with/like the male protag. So again their entire character becomes centered around the main male protag. True, till you look at all of the male characters supporting the MC. Is it any different compared to the female "good guys"? I don't think so. "Oh god, when is the hero gonna come and save the day? Because, it sure as hell my manly 6 pack abs aren't going able to do it" In the end of day, the MC did show up albeit late, saved the world, cheered by both female and male cheerleaders (aka supporting characters) because he is the only man for the job and before you know it, its happily ever after. The end. 4 Strong female characters are also frequently gutted of all agency to make them damsels in distress for the lead male to rescue. Again true, till you look at all of the male characters saved by the MC. Not noticeable unless you start getting more aware of it. And these strong male characters start to fade away into obscurity the more we go into the show. Surprising, considering how much time we spent on watching them fight or deal a problem and poof, they are forgotten. 5 Also women are allowed to be strong in traditionally feminine ways, which usually require that they be dependent upon the male character to actually do something. Which if you're watching an action show means that they're not doing much other then cheering on the male protag. Now, quite a lot of anime are guilty of this. If you see my previous points, i won't bother to repeat it again. So, what i am trying to say here? I am trying to say here is that it doesn't just affect female anime characters only but males as well. It depends who is the protagonist, what they are trying to convey in the said show, the target audience, you know, whatever important bits in making an anime. Oh I know men get the same treatment, but you're missing the important part. The main character, the one who saves the day, is a man the majority of the time. Of the list on the front, how many of those are female Lead Character shows, who are not fanserviced? I can pick out maybe four, maybe. The OPs initial problem is how people were excited about Yona of the Dawn. How people have called it a great story, because of the female lead is becoming a strong woman. Monad believes that we're ignoring all these other strong female characters. We're not, but the majority of those strong female characters are not the LEAD character in an action oriented show, or they're treated as little more then props in a play (sexual objectification optional). That's an important distinction, because it does make Yona a rare show. |
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jal90 said: The main issue with this current discussion is not so much that characters aren't brought under a specific intention, if anything it is that characters can and usually do cover many. Being played for fanservice is a sign of catering to the audience, but so is being portrayed as proficient, strong, emotionally compelling and so on. You can't say that Motoko wearing revealing outfits denies the charm of the character as a sci-fi protagonist, because the contrary isn't true either. A character can represent various points of interest for the audience, and picking one is not enough of a reason to ignore the rest. true. Then again pandering is appealing to the viewer by giving him something he lacks irl .... Be it sexualized fan-service or OP main character who kills all the bad guys. However, sexualized fan-service is almost in ALL cases interpreted as pandering (because its usually IS) the same doesn't apply to other personality traits u might find in characters. And too mush of ANY fan-service basically nullifies other traits that are relevant to the story. |
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WAD1992 said: And too mush of ANY fan-service basically nullifies other traits that are relevant to the story. Kind of, but other than a source of prejudgement I can't help but find this statement flat out wrong. I have actually seen this in One Piece quite a lot of times, and lately took an active stance against it because I honestly couldn't believe what I was reading. People interpret Nami being in a bikini outfit 24/7 as "too much fanservice" and suddenly they stop paying attention to aspects of the character that are still relevant and prominent, that define her acts and various important decisions through the arcs. That would be fine and understandable if those people weren't trying to make it look like the character had lost these aspects, stating then things that are simply and factually false and the product of a clouded judgement. |
crystal_3001 said: but the majority of those strong female characters are not the LEAD character in an action oriented show I do'nt get this mentality, since when does a character have to be a lead character to be considered strong?? Just because a chatacter is in a supporting role does not take away their value or make them any less of a character. Not to mention, those people were never specifically referring to Lead Characters either, It's just: "OH MY GOD....A STRONG WOMENS??.....Such Unique" |
King_of_HereticsMar 28, 2015 8:08 AM
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Mountainstream said: Darklord_bg said: Where? When? If you go through the OP's list you will see in most (if not all) of those shows the female characters are the stronger or braver ones, or even the ones that give the best impression. Remember that stronger does not necessarily mean physically, but also having a stronger will and most male characters nowadays are pushovers when confronting with women. Yes, I wish that people stop complaining about lack of strong and determined female characters because nowadays this is simply not true. Can you provide a list like the OPs where the male characters are stronger and braver? From recent years, of the top of my head, I can only think of JoJo and Hunter x Hunter, which is mostly because they are adaptations of old manga which follows more "traditional"gender roles. Where? when? I am responding to this in a separate post, since you obviously put in some time to come up with this response, so it’s only fair I do the same. Mountainstream said: You seriously think it's hard to find anime in which the focus is not primarily on a male character? There are so many that it's better to list genres: No. I seriously think it’s hard to find anime in which the male characters are stronger and more assertive when compared to the female characters. Just because the focus is on the male character (as you know it often is) does not mean he is a better or even a stronger character than the female ones. Many male protagonists are doormats (Yuki from Mirai Nikki, Haru from Accel World, HAruto from Valvrave, etc.) even though the show is focused on their struggles. That’s what I have a problem with. I am also mostly taking about recent anime (after 2007 or so I guess). I know I can dig up many shows with traditional heroes pre-2000 or so, but most of them have crappy production quality and clichéd storylines and I think I’ve already seen most of the good ones. Mountainstream said: There are so many that it's better to list genres: I honestly would prefer you list specific shows. Using genres is too easy to be vague and harder to counter. Mountainstream said: Sports anime tend to have a lot of male characters and just a few female characters. Those female characters might be tsundere or have some 'funny' moments in in which they tell the male characters off, but the focus is mostly on the guys in most cases. I don’t watch many sports anime since most of them are pretty boring and overall very similar to each other, but those “funny” moments where the girls tell the guys off (usually do more than that) are an example of what I am talking about. You almost never see male characters do those sorts of things. These moments show the girls as being more assertive even if physically weaker and the male characters as pushovers, which I don’t enjoy seeing. Mountainstream said: Shounen 'superhero' anime (think Naruto, Bleach, etc): same. There might be a few female characters that are tough, but the most powerful characters tend to be guys. They are also the main characters. The first character you think of is Goku when you think of Dragonball Z, not Chichi. Yeah, shounen is a male-dominated genre, although it is also a gradually-declining genre. The big three are already pretty old (with Bleach anime and Naruto manga ended) and have left most semblance of quality behind (fillers, bad animation, and stretched-out action). Simply put – they are no longer good to watch. New shounen adaptations are pretty scarce, with Assassination Classroom currently showing some potential although still pretty low-key and Nanatsu no Taizai being genuinely good and entertaining, but unfortunately – over already, since it reached the manga. Also in general the shounen genre is also plagued by some of those clichés I talked about earlier with the female characters always beating up the male ones (never the opposite) and the guys just taking it. Watching Nami constantly beat up the whole crew is particularly cringe worthy. She is far from being the strongest member of the cast physically, but mentally (when it comes to willpower) she is by far the strongest. Mountainstream said: Detective style anime: tend to have male main characters that are the smartest and focus of the plot. This is where it would help me if you gave examples. I’ve seen a few episodes of Detective Conan, but it’s just a kiddy show. I guess Death Note fits the bill, but it’s no longer recent. Also – have you seen Gosick? There the female characters are again superior when it comes to solving mysteries and being overall braver. The same is true in Nanana’s Buried Treasure by the way. Mountainstream said: Mecha anime (Gundam etc): usually the main character is male and it will be his journey that is most important The last good Gundam show was Gundam 00 which ended in 2009 and since then the franchise has been going steadily downhill. As for other mecha shows, Valvrave and Captain Earth have pretty timid male characters and more assertive female ones. Cross Ange is pretty much a gender-reversal of old Gundam shows. ALdnoah Zero is the only one that fits the bill for what you are trying to claim, although apart from the two protagonists the rest of the male characters are even more inconsequential and forgettable than the whole female cast. Also, I don’t think there will be a happy ending for either of the protagonists. Mountainstream said: Fantasy: apart from female wish fulfillment anime like Fushigi Yuugi, the main character is often male here as well. Examples, please? Fantasy is a pretty big genre for you to generalize like that. I watched the first episode of Hitsugi no Chaika in which the male protagonist was viciously beaten up by his sister and then chewed out by his female landlord, then found out that this trend continued for the rest of the show. In Kyoukaisenjou no Horizon the male protagonist is a “butt monkey” type of character and on average I would say the female characters are stronger (Kimi, Futayo, etc…) I am constantly putting off watching DenYuuDen because again the male protagonist is constantly belittled and physically abused by the female one. In Shana, the overwhelming majority of the stronger characters are female. Yeah, there are too many fantasy shows to generalize, so it would be better for you to give examples. Mountainstream said: Harem anime: all about male wish fulfillment. The fact that girl wish fulfillment is called 'reverse harem' tells you which is more prevalent 99% of harem anime features dull, boring, indecisive, timid, pushover male protagonists and much more active and interesting female characters. Mountainstream said: Criminals as main characters: Almost solely male characters. Female characters have it particularly bad in this genre. I am not sure about this one. Are you talking about Psycho Pass? I’ve been meaning to watch that for a while, but from what I know it’s pretty even when it comes to gender distribution and competence and even tilting slightly towards women at the end (with season 2 and all). Mountainstream said: Samurai anime: with rare exceptions, the guys are most badass. True, but those are very few and even fewer are good and worth watching. Sengoku Basara S1 was awesome, S2 was average and S3 was just garbage. All of its rip-offs (Nobunaga the Fool, etc.) are not any better. Mountainstream said: Anime about hip or quirky people of the 'now': there is a bit more variety in this genre, but I have still come across more where the guys are still more important Not sure what you are talking about – Durarara maybe? Sorry for the long post. In short, it seems you misunderstood my original point, since I was not saying anime that focus on male characters are few, I was saying anime with strong and assertive male characters are getting fewer – and from the responses in this thread (and in other forums/blogs) you can see that a lot of people agree with me. If you wanted to make a case that this is not true, you should better come of with specific examples, not entire genres which are too broad to generalize. |
jal90 said: WAD1992 said: And too mush of ANY fan-service basically nullifies other traits that are relevant to the story. Kind of, but other than a source of prejudgement I can't help but find this statement flat out wrong. I have actually seen this in One Piece quite a lot of times, and lately took an active stance against it because I honestly couldn't believe what I was reading. People interpret Nami being in a bikini outfit 24/7 as "too much fanservice" and suddenly they stop paying attention to aspects of the character that are still relevant and prominent, that define her acts and various important decisions through the arcs. That would be fine and understandable if those people weren't trying to make it look like the character had lost these aspects, stating then things that are simply and factually false and the product of a clouded judgement. mmmm i wouldn't pick OP as example for your argument though, mainly because, i doubt that any one watches OP for the "characters" , its a fun and enjoyable story , but character wise .... there isn't much to work on. I am watching the anime and have not read the manga, so i have no idea if she will display any sort of significant behavior, but until now, she's just comic relief (like most of the OP cast tbh ). |
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WAD1992 said: jal90 said: Kind of, but other than a source of prejudgement I can't help but find this statement flat out wrong. I have actually seen this in One Piece quite a lot of times, and lately took an active stance against it because I honestly couldn't believe what I was reading. People interpret Nami being in a bikini outfit 24/7 as "too much fanservice" and suddenly they stop paying attention to aspects of the character that are still relevant and prominent, that define her acts and various important decisions through the arcs. That would be fine and understandable if those people weren't trying to make it look like the character had lost these aspects, stating then things that are simply and factually false and the product of a clouded judgement. mmmm i wouldn't pick OP as example for your argument though, mainly because, i doubt that any one watches OP for the "characters" , its a fun and enjoyable story , but character wise .... there isn't much to work on. I am watching the anime and have not read the manga, so i have no idea if she will display any sort of significant behavior, but until now, she's just comic relief (like most of the OP cast tbh ). Well, characters in this series are comic relief, but they also have a lot of focus on their motivations and personality, and Nami's through the arcs has been particularly obvious. I put One Piece as an example because it's the one I'm more familiar with. Even if you consider them third-rate characters, they are still characters with narrative focus and that alone makes those statements I mentioned arguable and/or verifiable. |
King_of_Devils said: crystal_3001 said: but the majority of those strong female characters are not the LEAD character in an action oriented show I do'nt get this mentality, since when does a character have to be a lead character to be considered strong?? Not to mention, those people were never specifically referring to Lead Characters either, It's just "OH MY GOD....A STRONG WOMENS??.....Such Unique When the OPs original issue was that people need to shut up about Yona, because there are all these other strong womenz!! I'm trying to explain why we're excited about Yona. Yes there are some strong women in anime, but the reason people are really excited about Yona is because we don't get many strong female lead characters. We don't get many female driven stories with action and adventure, that don't have unneeded panty shots or unnecessary pandering to otaku. So when we do, we're gonna celebrate. |
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Monad said: "Not created in a vacuum" "damsel in distress" "dent to be accessories" Seriously stop watching Anita Sarkeesian is hurting your brain. We were having a decent conversation but now you went or feminist bullshit on me. None of what you said are facts at all. 1) That's what happens to all sub-characters whether they are male or female. If the MC is male of course that will be true. But so will be true for other male characters in his anime. They will also just be there to advance his story. But you just conveniently ignore their non so great role. Sorry that is no argument. 2)Not the center of the plot? Most of the anime i put they are. Also sometimes not be center of the plot doesn't mean you ain't the coolest stronger character. Many times the MC just seem stupid while the non centered character is made more awesome. 3)Most male MC are in-love with a female character too. That is called romance and is just put there cause people like that element in their stories not because "OMG, we have to make her depend on a male". Never as strong as the male. Bullshit. Plenty of times are as strong or stronger or there is no significant male MC. 4) That's too much feminist bullshit for me to even comment about. 5)Also saying that they depend on a male character to do something is quite the bullshit because even if the MC is male and the anime has a strong female fighter too then usually the male MC also depends on her a few times doing something, by saying that you are trying to do a catch that will always make you seem right since when an MC has allies at one point it will depend on them doing something. There wouldn't be a purpose for them otherwise whether they are male or female. Look when you want to be Sarkeesian type of complainer it's easy. Males can do it do. Just put anime in what his saying in this videos instead of movies, clips and games and there you have it since you did the same by pulling Sarkeesians arguments for anime in your post. Is easy to be a complainer and play the obsessed. You can always find something to complain. Shows aren't created in a vacuum. They're products. They're meant to sell merchandise. Sex sells and it's the easiest way to sell merchandise to otakus. What about this is false? Yes there are male secondary characters, but you're forgetting that lead characters are mostly male. You know what, I was going to type out this huge reply, but I realize that it's wasted on you. You're go to response when I criticize women's portrayals in anime is to write me off as an Anita Sarkeesian. So I'm done with you. You have no desire to have a conversation that looks at the frequently sexist representation of women in anime, including your list of strong female characters. So there's no point. Continue sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "feminist bullshit". I'm not going to change your mind, so there is no point in wasting either of our times. (Frankly the only thing I like about Anita is that she made bank on the rage of misogynists. Her go fund me endeavor would have died a quiet death if they hadn't threatened to rape and kill her. Those idiots shot themselves in the foot by giving her a platform.) |
animeaddictanonMar 28, 2015 8:31 AM
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crystal_3001 said: King_of_Devils said: I do'nt get this mentality, since when does a character have to be a lead character to be considered strong?? Not to mention, those people were never specifically referring to Lead Characters either, It's just "OH MY GOD....A STRONG WOMENS??.....Such Unique When the OPs original issue was that people need to shut up about Yona, because there are all these other strong womenz!! I'm trying to explain why we're excited about Yona. Yes there are some strong women in anime, but the reason people are really excited about Yona is because we don't get many strong female lead characters. We don't get many female driven stories with action and adventure, that don't have unneeded panty shots or unnecessary pandering to otaku. So when we do, we're gonna celebrate. Maybe Monad is oversimplifying the concept of a strong character, but let's be honest, most people he takes on do as well, because most of the time people consider strong characters who kick ass and are or look badass, not taking anything else into consideration. In that sense his complaint, if debatable, is understandable. |
| Wow, actual discussion. While some points are just generalizations and looking the other way in order for their point to be proven, but still. Sasuga MAL, I commend you ppl. |
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AzureDaora said: Wow, actual discussion. While some points are just generalizations and looking the other way in order for their point to be proven, but still. Sasuga MAL, I commend you ppl. its just because jal90 is here :3 aside from him and zerg, i have hardly seen ANY users that actually make "discussions" here |
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jal90 said: WAD1992 said: mmmm i wouldn't pick OP as example for your argument though, mainly because, i doubt that any one watches OP for the "characters" , its a fun and enjoyable story , but character wise .... there isn't much to work on. I am watching the anime and have not read the manga, so i have no idea if she will display any sort of significant behavior, but until now, she's just comic relief (like most of the OP cast tbh ). Well, characters in this series are comic relief, but they also have a lot of focus on their motivations and personality, and Nami's through the arcs has been particularly obvious. I put One Piece as an example because it's the one I'm more familiar with. Even if you consider them third-rate characters, they are still characters with narrative focus and that alone makes those statements I mentioned arguable and/or verifiable. yes, indeed there is, but i still fail to see multiple dimensions within their personalities. Now u might argue that "even so, they are still characters". And thats true, but they are inherently bad characters, and as long as they are in that stat, i doubt i'l care one way or the other how they are used (comic relief, plot devices, fan service etc... ). On a side note: i am seriously surprised u didnt use Robin as an example, aside from her "relevant" back story , she has the most "interesting" personality among the entire cast, she even got some really good scenes through out the series that layered her character. I never really got why nami always gets more appeal then Robin Robin shwan is better >_> |
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| They aren't relatable or interesting enough. I thought I could only like male characters, I couldn't find any female character likeable enough (Rukia, Riko Aida and a few more are fine but that's all) until I began to read comics. And with comics I mean superheroes and such. Those female characters are more interesting, finally I've found female characters I like. Black Widow, Jean Grey, Storm, etc. Take Revy, for example, from Black Lagoon. Yup, she kick butts and such and blah blah blah but I didn't find her interesting. A strong woman (or man) doesn't need to kick butts and that's all, she needs more attributes and I usually can't find them in anime. I didn't like Mirai Nikki and Elfen Lied either... that's what I'm saying... I need to read Claymore though. Maybe I'm watching the wrong ones, but if the "good ones" are Revy, Yuno or Lucy then what a pain. Really. What a pain. |
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WAD1992 said: On a side note: i am seriously surprised u didnt use Robin as an example, aside from her "relevant" back story , she has the most "interesting" personality among the entire cast, she even got some really good scenes through out the series that layered her character. I never really got why nami always gets more appeal then Robin Robin shwan is better >_> Oh, I always thought that Nami was better, both as a character and in her focus. Contrarily to Robin, she's shown some regularity through the arcs when it comes to emphasizing personality and emotional background; the problem of Robin actually is that after Enies Lobby she's had very little character focus at all. Maybe Nami hasn't had anything as significant around her as Enies Lobby -and I would disagree about that- but she's had more presence in the narrative through the series. |
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