| Like you mentioned I think the concern is people who suicide as a result of some sort of underlying psychological problem. These people aren't at full mental capacity when they make the decision. However, if a person who is mentally fit wants to commit suicide I see nothing wrong with it. The legality of it doesn't really matter because if you're successful the law no longer applies to you. Though I could see that if it's legal and regulated how in certain ways it make it 'safer' to suicide if that makes sense -- meaning you don't end up crippled in a botched up attempt. It might be painless too. I would support it. I think people should have the right to end their life. |
| By allowing suicide to be "legal" you're just sort of condoning(giving a silent nod) to it, which I'm willing to bet that alone would increase the rates of suicide anywhere. Let's not forget that suicide being illegal isn't stopping people from doing it outright but I do believe it helps in making people seek help first before just instantly resorting to offing themselves. Laws aren't everyone's copy/paste morals either and I don't look down on people who even simply contemplating suicide, it's your decision, after all. |
| Unfortunately suicide is the biggest mental problem. Nobody who kills themselves is thinking rationally. Unless you suffer from something that makes you want to harm others. Harming yourself is the wildest thing in the world. What do you think of yourself? The moral aspect will never go away people will still do it, and others will complain. |
| Dr. Sheldon Cooper " It is no way to make new humans. People coming out of people. Some kind of dirty magic show. |
| We're owned by the government - Yes we can go anywhere with the right amount of money and certificates but the main part is money. We are the ones who pay taxes without us the government wouldn't have nearly as much funding as they do now. It also costs the government for failed attempts, funerals etc (not necessarily government but family too) It's illegal to stop people from no longer being able to generate an income. It should be legal if the person just doesn't want to live any more and it isn't influence by a mental illness (unless it is one that prevents them from living anywhere near an average life I'd say) |
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| Because $ |
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| It's legal here. It's still difficult to get a lethal dose when you have some mental problem, but if you're mentally stable and suffering you could get one. In my opinion that's a good thing. If you're chronically suffering without a change of a better life it's better to be death, if you think so yourself then it's stupid if they keep you alive. |
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Meokii said: Imagine if I killed myself, how should I be punished. I'll draw a funny face on your corpse with a permanent marker. |
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Meokii said: Imagine if I killed myself, how should I be punished. This reminds me of an old law I've heard about. Google'd it immediately and I found this: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2936/did-there-use-to-be-a-law-that-made-attempted-suicide-a-capital-offence-punishab How's that? |
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| Because someone has to clean up your dead body eventually. |
Pentobarbidoll said: Meokii said: Imagine if I killed myself, how should I be punished. I may have used the wrong phrase. Rather than asking why it's illegal, I should have asked, "Why are there no means for those deemed mentally fit to be assisted in peaceful death?" Because no mentally fit person would want to die. |
| Munch munch, chomp chomp, gobble gobble, gulp. |
gedenkaffe said: Pentobarbidoll said: I may have used the wrong phrase. Rather than asking why it's illegal, I should have asked, "Why are there no means for those deemed mentally fit to be assisted in peaceful death?" Because no mentally fit person would want to die. I think a lot of people have this attitude, and I'm personally tired by it. To me it's just patronizing, as if every single person who wants to die has some sort of problem and needs to be saved by you and your righteous. I have no problems conceding that suicide is a serious issue, and prevention is important for certain vulnerable groups. However, I think to go out and claim no mentally sane person would ever commit suicide is rather pretentious. |
Measure said: gedenkaffe said: Because no mentally fit person would want to die. I think a lot of people have this attitude, and I'm personally tired by it. To me it's just patronizing, as if every single person who wants to die has some sort of problem and needs to be saved by you and your righteous. I have no problems conceding that suicide is a serious issue, and prevention is important for certain vulnerable groups. However, I think to go out and claim no mentally sane person would ever commit suicide is rather pretentious. It is, but thats the answer to his/her question. Because thats what the society thinks. |
| Munch munch, chomp chomp, gobble gobble, gulp. |
| It is in some more enlightened counties. Places like Dignitas in Switzerland. The only thing thats stopping other countries from doing similar things is they are ultimately stupid and fear an influx pf people wanting to die. Dignitas has a set list of criteria you have to meet, things like being terminally ill, and having a debilitating degenerative disease that will ruin the quality of your life. You can't just be like, oh guise I'm forever alone kill me now, im sick of wearing my cheeto stained T shirt and watching anime. |
Aureolus said: Because it comes from a chemical imbalance as such we should try to fix it/help people thinking about it and not give them the means in which they can take their lives. Elvellonwen said: It is in some more enlightened counties. Places like Dignitas in Switzerland. Tips fedora There's nothing fedora about Switzerland being one of the most advanced country in medical and political structure in the world, little man. They've been doing this since literally before you were alive. The fact that some country's are behind just shows the level of progression. In fact, I'd fully Expect Canada to be passing some laws if they haven't already because they're up there with some of the leading countries in the world as far as medical care goes. it's the same as any country who is at the for front of a science, technology or political view. |
Elvellonwen said: The fact that some country's are behind just shows the level of progression. In fact, I'd fully Expect Canada to be passing some laws if they haven't already because they're up there with some of the leading countries in the world as far as medical care goes. it's the same as any country who is at the for front of a science, technology or political view. Although the political changes may take longer in some places, and much longer in others, the social shift is already very apparent. In terms of assisted suicide in the case of terminal illness and loss of quality of life, they are already largely considered acceptable reasons to commit suicide where I live (Australia) but in terms of our laws changing, that will take much, much longer. Just because something is illegal somewhere does not mean it is not largely accepted in that place, nor do laws reflect the current social view as that would require politics to be entirely flexible, which it is not. In terms of society accepting assisted suicide or suicide without a strong reason, though? Can't see it happening in my lifetime. |
idungoof said: Elvellonwen said: The fact that some country's are behind just shows the level of progression. In fact, I'd fully Expect Canada to be passing some laws if they haven't already because they're up there with some of the leading countries in the world as far as medical care goes. it's the same as any country who is at the for front of a science, technology or political view. Although the political changes may take longer in some places, and much longer in others, the social shift is already very apparent. In terms of assisted suicide in the case of terminal illness and loss of quality of life, they are already largely considered acceptable reasons to commit suicide where I live (Australia) but in terms of our laws changing, that will take much, much longer. Just because something is illegal somewhere does not mean it is not largely accepted in that place, nor do laws reflect the current social view as that would require politics to be entirely flexible, which it is not. In terms of society accepting assisted suicide or suicide without a strong reason, though? Can't see it happening in my lifetime. Which is why country's like Switzerland lead the way. On every point you mentioned. Especially the socially accepted suicide part. It comes down to the reason that Suicide usually comes with the idea that people are hanging themselves or cutting their wrists or OD'ing on pills. Not a full medical consultation based on illness. In fact in south Africa a friend of mines brother had bowl cancer and was forced to have a degrading and useless operation that ruined the last few weeks of his life by extending it while he suffered because otherwise they wouldn't have given him palliative care. Life is not worth living is it's in constant pain. And he was already in a lot of pain because of the cancer, it just made the last few weeks of his life even more painful. It's disgusting behaviour. If he had denied the operation they would have denied him palliative care for the cancer. Nice huh. |
Elvellonwen said: Which is why country's like Switzerland lead the way. On every point you mentioned. Especially the socially accepted suicide part. It comes down to the reason that Suicide usually comes with the idea that people are hanging themselves or cutting their wrists or OD'ing on pills. Not a full medical consultation based on illness. In fact in south Africa a friend of mines brother had bowl cancer and was forced to have a degrading and useless operation that ruined the last few weeks of his life by extending it while he suffered because otherwise they wouldn't have given him palliative care. Life is not worth living is it's in constant pain. And he was already in a lot of pain because of the cancer, it just made the last few weeks of his life even more painful. It's disgusting behaviour. If he had denied the operation they would have denied him palliative care for the cancer. Nice huh. They lead the way politically by having a long history of greater flexibility making future flexibility much easier. For the rest of us stuck in the post war era of politics that unfortunately is not possible as these things are seen as political suicide. The people in these societies themselves, the acceptability of these acts? Pretty similar. Personally, I don't care much if something is legal or not, I care more about the way something is perceived by people I'm likely to get dobbed in by. The reason I think that its become more acceptable is exactly the story you described. It's been told over and over again, from so many people, at many different ages where someone has a terminal illness and the constant requirement of the medical profession to save lives at all costs is costing people quality of life, length of life that is actually worth living and trading it for longer life that is completely fucking useless, costing money and other related damage. People have seen it, they understand how it could happen, hence its acceptability. Will my government move to change the law even though 99% of people would understand why it's a good idea? Nope. Will they stop enforcing it as heavily and searching for a guilty verdict? Already have. Crucifying a suffering family for doing what most people would say is right is also political suicide. If suicide was legal across the board we could implement ways for people to die painlessly, such as inert gas asphyxiation. It's cheap, clean and easy. I hope it becomes legal some day because the world could use less people. |
| It's just a simple insurance to prevent suci-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! THEY ARE ALREADY FUCKING DEAD! GO AHEAD AND ARREST THEM IN THEIR FUCKING GRAVES YOU DUMB FUCKS! |
| "After I finish fucking you. I am going to kill you." |
JackFisher said: It's just a simple insurance to prevent suci-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! THEY ARE ALREADY FUCKING DEAD! GO AHEAD AND ARREST THEM IN THEIR FUCKING GRAVES YOU DUMB FUCKS! There are sub laws regarding inheritance issues and other burdens on next of kin and such that are entirely relevant in many countries. It's part of why suicide is considered selfish. Heredity said: idungoof said: question: how do we know it's painless, if the subject always dies as a result of the method?If suicide was legal across the board we could implement ways for people to die painlessly, such as inert gas asphyxiation. It's cheap, clean and easy. I hope it becomes legal some day because the world could use less people. Because experiments have been performed where the subject is lucid (high from a lack of oxygen) but not in any pain, and on the verge of unconsciousness and death. Sure, it's possible the actual process of dying while unconscious is unpleasant but up until that point it's actually entirely pleasant. Giggling while on the verge of death seems like the less painful option. |
idungoof said: I hope it becomes legal some day because the world could use less people. The global population isn't going to decline significantly even if everyone decided that Assisted suicide was ok. All that would happen is that the world would be full of mainly healthy people. The really weird part is that when we implement something like that on a large scale, we're starting to come dangerous close to Genetic cleansing. And nobody wants to become the new Hitler. Also, the gas idea sounds like a really bad one. The Dignitas method is a series of three injections. Methods are all a bit of a talking point too. |
| In my country this is not applied mostly due to religious/political factors. I believe that it should be legal for people who have debilitating/degenerative illness that will make your life unbearable or make you suffer psychologically and physically. People who are not under these kind of situations and have reached this decision because they don't like their life or they have many problems that pressure them, shouldn't be able to take this decision right away because they are not thinking rationally. Deciding to commit suicide is showing that you are not having full mental capacity. I believe it should be legal for the first case I mentioned. For the second one, it should be illegal only because they are not thinking clearly. Even if it was legal, then many people who felt lonely or desperate at some point for stupid reasons would end their life. |
idungoof said: JackFisher said: It's just a simple insurance to prevent suci-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! THEY ARE ALREADY FUCKING DEAD! GO AHEAD AND ARREST THEM IN THEIR FUCKING GRAVES YOU DUMB FUCKS! There are sub laws regarding inheritance issues and other burdens on next of kin and such that are entirely relevant in many countries. It's part of why suicide is considered selfish. Makes sense. |
| "After I finish fucking you. I am going to kill you." |
Elvellonwen said: idungoof said: I hope it becomes legal some day because the world could use less people. The global population isn't going to decline significantly even if everyone decided that Assisted suicide was ok. All that would happen is that the world would be full of mainly healthy people. The really weird part is that when we implement something like that on a large scale, we're starting to come dangerous close to Genetic cleansing. And nobody wants to become the new Hitler. Also, the gas idea sounds like a really bad one. The Dignitas method is a series of three injections. Methods are all a bit of a talking point too. I was referring to people who are entirely healthy committing suicide, not assisted suicide. Also, the inert gas asphyxia method has been tested, subjectively of course, against reports of injection methods. Basically, as with all injections and drug administrations, effects are variable and do not always produce the desired outcome. The asphyxia method is not only works 100% of the time because nobody can live without oxygen, the state induced before death is one of lucidity. You don't feel like you're dying, you feel high like you just had a couple balloons of nos, then you fall unconscious and die from asphyxia. It's less medical and less messy. Cheaper, too. |
JackFisher said: It's just a simple insurance to prevent suci-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! THEY ARE ALREADY FUCKING DEAD! GO AHEAD AND ARREST THEM IN THEIR FUCKING GRAVES YOU DUMB FUCKS! Well, actually Family members who have helped someone who is terminally ill commit suicide have been sentenced to prison for murder. And in some cases people who have flown to Switzerland for example, because the person who is being helped to die needs help with travel have been arrested on similar charges, because of aiding and abetting. So the person is dead, but then the family is made to suffer. |
idungoof said: Elvellonwen said: The global population isn't going to decline significantly even if everyone decided that Assisted suicide was ok. All that would happen is that the world would be full of mainly healthy people. The really weird part is that when we implement something like that on a large scale, we're starting to come dangerous close to Genetic cleansing. And nobody wants to become the new Hitler. Also, the gas idea sounds like a really bad one. The Dignitas method is a series of three injections. Methods are all a bit of a talking point too. I was referring to people who are entirely healthy committing suicide, not assisted suicide. Then you've lost me. Life is hard, it shouldn't be, but at times it can be. As long as you have a decent quality of life as far as health goes, suicide should never be an option. but that's an individual choice. If they are going to commit suicide and do it themselves, there's really nothing anyone can do. But it being funded by any government would never be passed ever. I'm talking exclusively about assisted suicide only, in the context that the person is ill and the quality of life they are living because of the illness is affecting that where dying would be more humane. |
Elvellonwen said: I'm talking exclusively about assisted suicide only, in the context that the person is ill and the quality of life they are living because of the illness is affecting that where dying would be more humane. I knew that, I just figured we're on the same page about that and it doesn't really warrant further discussion. While in my personal mantra suicide isn't a real option seeing as I'm relatively healthy for many people there are reasons they consider valid for suicide. If they want to take the ultimate form of giving up I dislike that burden should fall on family and friends beyond things like funeral bills and whatnot. Although once when I worked in insurance I had an old lady call me and she started telling me about how her son committed suicide (based on her age he would've been in his mid to late 40's). I offered my condolences to which she responded, "He had a good run, he'd just had enough". That response stumped me entirely. Apparently sometimes there is no burden. |
idungoof said: Elvellonwen said: I'm talking exclusively about assisted suicide only, in the context that the person is ill and the quality of life they are living because of the illness is affecting that where dying would be more humane. I knew that, I just figured we're on the same page about that and it doesn't really warrant further discussion. While in my personal mantra suicide isn't a real option seeing as I'm relatively healthy for many people there are reasons they consider valid for suicide. If they want to take the ultimate form of giving up I dislike that burden should fall on family and friends beyond things like funeral bills and whatnot. Although once when I worked in insurance I had an old lady call me and she started telling me about how her son committed suicide (based on her age he would've been in his mid to late 40's). I offered my condolences to which she responded, "He had a good run, he'd just had enough". That response stumped me entirely. Apparently sometimes there is no burden. If family feel burdened by a person, then they are not family worth having. Thats kind of the whole point of humans being fucked up though. Another topic entirely, but honestly, as soon as you start being told that you are worthless to society or to the people around you then life is already over for you. It's why i say, if you're not willing to take on the ''burden'' of a life, then don't have any children. They might not end up being the meal ticket you hoped they will be for you. Honestly, the only burden a person should feel is for themselves. |
Heredity said: idungoof said: decided to look it up myself, apparently you go unconscious after a minute and then it takes another 6-7 for you to actually die (meanwhile your body goes through some weird shit). you can actually enter cardiac arrest and the such if that's how your body chooses to respond. definitely sounds unpleasant.Because experiments have been performed where the subject is lucid (high from a lack of oxygen) but not in any pain, and on the verge of unconsciousness and death. Sure, it's possible the actual process of dying while unconscious is unpleasant but up until that point it's actually entirely pleasant. Giggling while on the verge of death seems like the less painful option. As opposed to all the pleasant ways there are to die? Most people consider the choice of dying while in their sleep to be the least bad of options for dying, but this usually involves some sort of stroke/heart attack/organ failure. Basically, there aren't any good ways to die. Picking something apart because it takes a few minutes while you're unconscious doesn't make sense when you look at the options that are available. Maybe we can implant people with small high powered explosive to annihilate them as quickly as possible. Most people would, however, consider being blown up to not be a good option. |
| When people are in pain, either physical or mostly emotional, they think irrationally and think suicide is their only option. Suicide shouldn't be encouraged unless the person who decides to commit this is suffering from a disorder/disease that is inflicting pain upon them. |
| lol, allowing suicide isn't going to decline population that much. I can only see this being legalized with a bunch of criteria met like the example used for Switzerland. There ain't no "herpderp I'm alone time to die" thing that will ever be legalized for any government who cares about the financial implications and public opinion involved. |
Tachii said: lol, allowing suicide isn't going to decline population that much. I can only see this being legalized with a bunch of criteria met like the example used for Switzerland. There ain't no "herpderp I'm alone time to die" thing that will ever be legalized for any government who cares about the financial implications and public opinion involved. I'm not talking about realistic ways of it happening. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation ala Futurama with suicide booths and whatnot. If people could kill themselves painlessly and on an absolute whim without seeking any professional advice it may well reduce population significantly. I'm not saying it would, but it might. If I was going to say it definitely would have no effect on population I'd need a bigger soapbox first. |
| Because they arn't able to make rational choices? And enough of the over population bullshit. Thats a copout for shitty industries, supply chains, and general Incompetence and waste by the human race. Fat people outnumber the starving by 200 million. |
RedArmyShogun said: Because they arn't able to make rational choices? TOPIC TITLE:Why is suicide illegal? Or (Why isn't assisted suicide offered to individuals deemed mentally fit) idungoof said: I'm not talking about realistic ways of it happening. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation ala Futurama with suicide booths and whatnot. If people could kill themselves painlessly and on an absolute whim without seeking any professional advice it may well reduce population significantly. I'm not saying it would, but it might. If I was going to say it definitely would have no effect on population I'd need a bigger soapbox first. Lets talk hypothetically, since we can't prove anything hypothetically, that makes for a really useless discussion. Hypothetically if suicide becomes like futurama then we'll all become aline slug brain zombies. On a little more of a serious note, it wouldn't decrease the population, you'd probably see the same rate of suicide. |
sixyearsJul 2, 2014 5:42 AM
Elvellonwen said: [/b]RedArmyShogun said: Because they arn't able to make rational choices? [b]TOPIC TITLE:Why is suicide illegal? Or (Why isn't assisted suicide offered to individuals [i]deemed mentally fit) Topic title. I don't give a shit. And simple because some people believe there is always a way out or a light at the end of the tunnel. Or it offends moral Principles of a few weak kneed people. There is no Freedoms in this world, its a nice little play card for the sake of nationalism, and the only worth most people have is as an industrial asset or consumer. Like capital punishment. Lots of people want to watch someone hang from a rope. Yet don't want to do it, or judge the hangman. Now sod off. |
RedArmyShogun said: Elvellonwen said: [/b][/i][b]TOPIC TITLE:Why is suicide illegal? Or (Why isn't assisted suicide offered to individuals [i]deemed mentally fit) Topic title. I don't give a shit. And simple because some people believe there is always a way out or a light at the end of the tunnel. Or it offends moral Principles of a few weak kneed people. Like capital punishment. Lots of people want to watch someone hang from a rope. Yet don't want to do it, or judge the hangman. Now sod off. You're being a bit of an idiot as always. Being able to make a rational choice to commit suicide is exactly what they do. The rest of what you said is garbage. |
| How does that logic work? They're not the same thing, obviously. |
| Sorry for going a little bit off-topic here but this thread reminded me of a story from my country It was Autumn i think, i was enjoying the unusually calm day that is until read the news. A guy well in his 30s climbed on the arguably tallest bridge in this country. When he reached the top he proceeded to trying to commit suicide, the police tried negotiating in hopes keeping him from jumping down A pretty painfully normal story, Right? Wrong, upon talking with this guy it was revealed that he is trying to kill himself because he simply wants an Eclair all the local shops were closed and he was feeling sad and so finding no way out of his bottomless despair he thought of a plan. He'll try to kill himself unless the authorities bring him an eclair This is a 100% legit, i might have not mentioned everything perfectly cause this happened a long time ago but you get the idea... |
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MrHawkeye said: Sorry for going a little bit off-topic here but this thread reminded me of a story from my country It was Autumn i think, i was enjoying the unusually calm day that is until read the news. A guy well in his 30s climbed on the arguably tallest bridge in this country. When he reached the top he proceeded to trying to commit suicide, the police tried negotiating in hopes keeping him from jumping down A pretty painfully normal story, Right? Wrong, upon talking with this guy it was revealed that he is trying to kill himself because he simply wants an Eclair all the local shops were closed and he was feeling sad and so finding no way out of his bottomless despair he thought of a plan. He'll try to kill himself unless the authorities bring him an eclair This is a 100% legit, i might have not mentioned everything perfectly cause this happened a long time ago but you get the idea... For some reason I find it doubtful that he would be declared mentally fit... |
idungoof said: MrHawkeye said: Sorry for going a little bit off-topic here but this thread reminded me of a story from my country It was Autumn i think, i was enjoying the unusually calm day that is until read the news. A guy well in his 30s climbed on the arguably tallest bridge in this country. When he reached the top he proceeded to trying to commit suicide, the police tried negotiating in hopes keeping him from jumping down A pretty painfully normal story, Right? Wrong, upon talking with this guy it was revealed that he is trying to kill himself because he simply wants an Eclair all the local shops were closed and he was feeling sad and so finding no way out of his bottomless despair he thought of a plan. He'll try to kill himself unless the authorities bring him an eclair This is a 100% legit, i might have not mentioned everything perfectly cause this happened a long time ago but you get the idea... For some reason I find it doubtful that he would be declared mentally fit... That's why i said off-topic, but i felt that i needed to share this |
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ThousandEyes said: Tachii said: How does that logic work? They're not the same thing, obviously. Why do they need to be regarded as the same thing in the first place? Why can't they just be legal choices? Because the world needs you. Your life is important, and if you committed suicide the world would be a lesser place, great potential lost and all would weep in your absence. Or some shit like that. |
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