No Game No Life Episode 4 Discussion

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Helpme said:
That would be a direct violation of metarule 4, no altering rules once agreed.

Rule 4: Unless contrary to "3.", the game content and the things wagered do not matter.

I think you meant
Rule 5: The challenged party has the right to decide the contents of the game.

Kurumi decided the content, Sora redefined the content. Kurumi of course could have challenged his redefinition, but that would have triggered

Rule 7: All matters for group conflicts will be decided by a representative.

Had Kurumi challenged Sora, she would have either had to admit that she was cheating, or played the siblings in a straight game of chess. Sora touched on this last episode.

May 2, 2014 7:25 PM

#303

UsaraDark

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Nov 2012

373

What race is that one purple haired girl that cried when Sora told her off?

May 2, 2014 7:49 PM

#304

DenjaX

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Nov 2008

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Takuan_Soho said:

Williamzz said:
Can someone explain to me how the kurami's king collapsed in the game? how did Sora pulled it off?

Someone might have already explained it but i'm too lazy to find it, so I'll thank anyone who replied to this in advance :)

To answer you and Jiraiya in a single post

Kurumi came up with the idea of having the pieces containing "free will" because she knew that she could compel her pieces forward, but that lacking magic, the pieces would not be willing to "sacrifice" themselves. What she was expecting was for Sora to use his magic, and then it would be a game of forcing the other person to expose that they were cheating.

Sora instead took Kurumi's "free will" argument and ran with it in ways she did not understand (not being a charismatic leader herself). So while she was using elven magic to move her pieces, he got that he could motivate his pieces to be willing to sacrifice himself, and to take the fact that Kurumi was using force and use that as a motivation.

What he did at the end was he made it clear that the forces he converted through personal appeals would not attack their former comrades, while forcing Kurumi to order her forces to slaughter their friends (while not providing them any greater reason: greed, religion, or nationalism) to justify their doing so. Given the choice, they preferred to remove the tyrant rather than slaughter their former comrades.

Had Kurumi given them something to fight for (as Sora had done), she might have had them attack, but because she was so focused on discovering what foreign power was backing Sora, she wasn't able to switch gears and realize it was never about magic, but about playing the game she created.

This is the answer I've been looking for. Thank you. So it's about the "free will" that Kurami imposed in her game that led her defeat. The fall of tyranny king makes more sense now.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .anime . manga . updates . ♫♪ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

May 3, 2014 1:40 AM

#305

ILC

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Apr 2014

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Choroshi said:
I haven't watched Mikakunin de Shinkoukei so i can't really say anything about the loli you guys mentioned. But if i have to choose solely based on their character design/appearance, i'd still choose Shiro <3

Try watching it, you may like it.

UsaraDark said:
What race is that one purple haired girl that cried when Sora told her off?

Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button.

ZelotMay 5, 2014 7:23 AM

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May 3, 2014 3:24 AM

#306

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Jun 2012

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Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:
That would be a direct violation of metarule 4, no altering rules once agreed.

Rule 4: Unless contrary to "3.", the game content and the things wagered do not matter.

I think you meant
Rule 5: The challenged party has the right to decide the contents of the game.

No, I meant 4. That's a somewhat weak translation, since it doesn't make clear that any rules are allowed and cannot be challenged. Doesn't matter if you think they are boring, unrealistic, or have discovered them to be unfair. Or anything else.

Takuan_Soho said:

Kurumi decided the content, Sora redefined the content.

Think about it. If people could unilaterally add new rules, no game would ever end, as both sides would do that whenever they otherwise would have lost.

Takuan_Soho said:
Kurumi of course could have challenged his redefinition, but that would have triggered

Rule 7: All matters for group conflicts will be decided by a representative.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Neither of them play as representatives. That will only come into play in the future no that they are kings.

Takuan_Soho said:
Had Kurumi challenged Sora, she would have either had to admit that she was cheating, or played the siblings in a straight game of chess. Sora touched on this last episode.

Why?

HelpmeMay 3, 2014 5:50 AM

May 3, 2014 4:15 AM

#307

Aozure

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Oct 2009

3296

The Civ (Civilization) reference was the highlight of this episode for me, that was so unexpected since its not a Japanese game...that speech was pretty dam good o.o

I really didn't want to like this show, but I do :<! But I still think its overrated at this point but whatever..

May 3, 2014 4:15 AM

#308

Tyrantarmy6

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Jul 2013

36274

Conquer the world and defeat god... I like how small they think :P

For those who seek perfection, there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

May 3, 2014 5:29 AM

#309

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Feb 2014

422

Helpme said:

Helpme said:
That would be a direct violation of metarule 4, no altering rules once agreed.

Takuan_Soho said:

Rule 4: Unless contrary to "3.", the game content and the things wagered do not matter.
I think you meant
Rule 5: The challenged party has the right to decide the contents of the game.

No, I meant 4. That's a somewhat weak translation, since it doesn't make clear that any rules are allowed and cannot be challenged. Doesn't matter if you think they are boring, unrealistic, or have discovered the to be unfair. Or anything else.

It is no weak translation, they are made like this to BE twisted.
At first glance all of those rules define the world quite good, but if you look deeper most of these rules are much too abstract to define anything.
All of those are meant to be broken in some way or other and to be taken advantage of.
Also yeah unfair rules are allowed.

EDIT: Btw you even saw this in this episode, when he gathered the noble men and wanted a match of rock-paper-scissors between him and them and he forced them to take paper while he would take scissors.
As nobles under him they couldn't really protest against those rules even though those are the very definition of unfair ;-)

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:

Kurumi decided the content, Sora redefined the content.

Think about it. If people could unilaterally add new rules, no game would ever end, as both sides would do that whenever they otherwise would have lost.

redefine rules =/= add new rules

Sora took those rules Kurumi made and used them for his own advantage; in this case he took the free will Kurumi used for her brainwashing to give his soldiers the moral to fight and win, to let those pieces defect and let the king be assasinated.
It once again comes down to too abstract rules. If she had defined those rules better (e. g. own pieces can't rebel) Sora would have it much much harder to win.

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:
Had Kurumi challenged Sora, she would have either had to admit that she was cheating, or played the siblings in a straight game of chess. Sora touched on this last episode.

Why?

If Kurumi had challenged Sora instead of the other way round the siblings would have the right to decide the game, hence her possibility of cheating would have lowered extremly; if nothing else because she was unsure if Sora really could detect magic.

Caleb8980May 3, 2014 5:40 AM

May 3, 2014 5:58 AM

#310

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Jun 2012

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Caleb8980 said:

It is no weak translation,

just making a statement like that without anything to back it up doesn't really give me anything to answer.

Caleb8980 said:

If Kurumi had challenged Sora instead of the other way round the siblings would have the right to decide the game, hence her possibility of cheating would have lowered extremly; if nothing else because she was unsure if Sora really could detect magic.

Well, he didn't challenge her over the rule change either, but, that doesn't explain why it has to be chess or admitting to cheating. They could just have picked whatever game they liked. So I don't think that's was what was meant.

May 3, 2014 7:50 AM

#311

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Feb 2014

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Helpme said:

Caleb8980 said:

It is no weak translation,

just making a statement like that without anything to back it up doesn't really give me anything to answer.

It is translated like that in both LN and anime subs, I highly doubt that both (actually 3 as it is also translated at NanoDesu) translators translate it wrong.
If only the anime subs would state it as that, then yes I would doubt it, too, but that 3 different translators are making the same mistake is next to impossible.

May 3, 2014 8:02 AM

#312

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Helpme said:
Think about it. If people could unilaterally add new rules, no game would ever end, as both sides would do that whenever they otherwise would have lost.

"Redefining" rules are not the same thing as creating a new rule. Kurumi said the pieces had will, so Sora used that against her. To use a metaphor, Sora out argued Kurumi in a court of law.

Helpme said:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Neither of them play as representatives. That will only come into play in the future no that they are kings.

The old guy with the white mustache was the representative. That was why he was standing between the players. If either would have accused the other of cheating, they would have had to appeal to him for the verdict.

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:
Had Kurumi challenged Sora, she would have either had to admit that she was cheating, or played the siblings in a straight game of chess. Sora touched on this last episode.

Why?

Because Kurumi really never meant for the pieces to have will, she just made that up so that she could use magic to cheat. She wanted this to be a chess game, not a strategy game, only a chess game where she could move her pieces more and restrict Shiro's movements.

It was Sora who, in accepting Kurumi's definition, understood that this was now a strategy war game and not a chess game. Kurumi never got that. To use a metaphor, she is like a chess novice that can see two moves ahead, but cannot see that her first movement will change the board in a way where the second or third move will result in something completely unforeseen. That she was a novice is not surprising, Humans think they will always lose, so what point is developing skill when magic will always trump it. Kurumi used her intelligence in finding a magical ally not in becoming good at games.

When Sora used will to his advantage, if she claimed that the pieces didn't have will, then she couldn't explain how she HAD moved the pieces outside the rules of chess and thus would have been caught as the first cheater, even HAD she been able to not be caught cheating, if they agreed to remove piece's will, then it would have turned into a normal chess game. But she couldn't do either because she assumed that Sora was using some sort of magic, so even IF she stopped using magic, there was no guarantee that Sora would have stopped using his supposed magic.

Sora had her checkmated, which is why she panicked.

Takuan_SohoMay 3, 2014 8:05 AM

May 3, 2014 8:11 AM

#313

5layer

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11495

I'm surprised this show turned out this good.

May 3, 2014 9:16 AM

#314

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Caleb8980 said:

Helpme said:

Caleb8980 said:

It is no weak translation,

just making a statement like that without anything to back it up doesn't really give me anything to answer.

It is translated like that in both LN and anime subs, I highly doubt that both (actually 3 as it is also translated at NanoDesu) translators translate it wrong.
If only the anime subs would state it as that, then yes I would doubt it, too, but that 3 different translators are making the same mistake is next to impossible.

If that is the case, I think it's more likely one translator copied by two others. It is really unlikely three people would pick the exact same words. And whether it is a mistake is a matter of taste. It sound more natural this way, and most readers wont care about minor nuances.

Takuan_Soho said:

"Redefining" rules are not the same thing as creating a new rule.

Nitpicking isn't really to sort of discussion I want. Changing rules effectively means removing one and adding another.

Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Neither of them play as representatives. That will only come into play in the future no that they are kings.

The old guy with the white mustache was the representative.

I'm not sure he is. He seemed more like a referee to me. But it doesn't matter, they're not playing him. So I still don't see how you mean rule 7 applies?

Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:
Had Kurumi challenged Sora, she would have either had to admit that she was cheating, or played the siblings in a straight game of chess. Sora touched on this last episode.

Why?

Because Kurumi really never meant for the pieces to have will, she just made that up so that she could use magic to cheat. She wanted this to be a chess game, not a strategy game, only a chess game where she could move her pieces more and restrict Shiro's movements.

You mean that it was the game rules that gave the pieces their abilities, it wasn't an existing magic game? That may be true, but I don't think the anime made that clear at all if that's the case.

That's really interesting, but I didn't catch how it is relevant to this discussion.

Takuan_Soho said:

When Sora used will to his advantage, if she claimed that the pieces didn't have will, then she couldn't explain how she HAD moved the pieces outside the rules of chess and thus would have been caught as the first cheater, even HAD she been able to not be caught cheating, if they agreed to remove piece's will, then it would have turned into a normal chess game. But she couldn't do either because she assumed that Sora was using some sort of magic, so even IF she stopped using magic, there was no guarantee that Sora would have stopped using his supposed magic.

Sora had her checkmated, which is why she panicked.

I don't see any problem with this, and it would be outright silly of her to say that the pieces didn't have will, given that she was the one who declared that rule.

But non of that seems relevant to the question. None of that seems to follow. Why would she need to deny it? Why couldn't she just say 'I don't agree to your new rule. It basically means my king dies and that I lose. There is no reason for me to want that.'?

May 3, 2014 9:34 AM

#315

CandyFace

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Jan 2014

674

Shiro and Sora are so damn awesome, this whole anime is really good so far, can't wait for the next episode ^^

May 3, 2014 10:03 AM

#316

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Helpme said:
Nitpicking isn't really to sort of discussion I want. Changing rules effectively means removing one and adding another.

Nitpicking is the essence of law, if you don't nitpick you end up having Sora running rampaged over you as he did to both Steph and now Kurumi. It's the difference between bending the law and breaking the law. Sora bends, he doesn't break.

Helpme said:
I'm not sure he is. He seemed more like a referee to me. But it doesn't matter, they're not playing him. So I still don't see how you mean rule 7 applies?

That was my bad, misread 7 there. But that really doesn't change my point. As the referee, it would be up to him to decide that either was cheating. After all, someone has to judge that, otherwise you would just have "he said, she said".

Helpme said:
You mean that it was the game rules that gave the pieces their abilities, it wasn't an existing magic game? That may be true, but I don't think the anime made that clear at all if that's the case.

That's really interesting, but I didn't catch how it is relevant to this discussion.

That is an absolute fact. This was not a pre-existing game, she made it look like chess, and then created that rule so she could cheat at chess. You get this point when Sora broke the turn structure, she did not foresee this because she still thought they were still playing chess. But at the same time Sora breaking the turn structure did not "invent" a new rule, it was a natural outcome of the pieces having will.

Helpme said:
But non of that seems relevant to the question. None of that seems to follow. Why would she need to deny it? Why couldn't she just say 'I don't agree to your new rule. It basically means my king dies and that I lose. There is no reason for me to want that.'?

Because Sora didn't invent a new rule. This gets to the essence of what this show is about, taking rules and using them to your advantage. This is why I keep calling this a "legal" show, because that is what Sora is doing, he is acting like a star lawyer twisting words to his advantage. Kurumi said "players have will", she said this because she thought that this would mean that the players wouldn't sacrifice themselves without force, and she had the means to use force.

Sora heard that and understood that people DO sacrifice themselves if you give them a cause to fight for, so he created the cause and the reason to fight.

Again, this was all intentional, this is another reason why Sora emphasized that all the Imanity were underestimating humans. Humans in this world have pretty much resigned to their fate, why would Kurumi think that the pieces would act differently from her fellow humans? She couldn't, and as Sora said, that is why she lost.

Several posters have said "oh Kurumi is stupid for not anticipating Sora", that missing the entire point that Sora is making about the humans in this world. Kurumi couldn't anticipate Sora because he was entirely outside anything she had ever experienced (not surprising since he comes from a different world), to Kurumi the pieces were just pieces based on the human's she knew, resigned, bitter, only caring about their own survival. How could she have anticipated idealism?

May 3, 2014 10:30 AM

#317

makamakafonis

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Mar 2014

145

last 3 minutes saved the episode for me :P they showed at last their motives and their aim!!! really nice! confronting Kami!

May 3, 2014 12:09 PM

#318

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199

Takuan_Soho said:

Because Sora didn't invent a new rule. This gets to the essence of what this show is about, taking rules and using them to your advantage. This is why I keep calling this a "legal" show, because that is what Sora is doing, he is acting like a star lawyer twisting words to his advantage.

I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

May 3, 2014 12:56 PM

#319

GreenDrag

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214

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:

Because Sora didn't invent a new rule. This gets to the essence of what this show is about, taking rules and using them to your advantage. This is why I keep calling this a "legal" show, because that is what Sora is doing, he is acting like a star lawyer twisting words to his advantage.

I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

What he's been trying to get through for what seems like an eternity by now, is simple.

Kurami made the rules of the game, however, due to the rules not being specific enough, Sora found loopholes, gateways and uncovered areas. After finding them, he exploited them.

It was like how he will be with Steph next episode (And this isn't really worth calling a spoiler either)
Steph bets Sora on the time, that it takes a random pidgeon to take flght. Steph bets around 90 seconds, Sora says 3 seconds, and throws a rock at the bird. It takes flight, and Sora wins, simply because Steph was not clear about the rules.

May 3, 2014 12:58 PM

#320

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Helpme said:
#
If that is the case, I think it's more likely one translator copied by two others. It is really unlikely three people would pick the exact same words. And whether it is a mistake is a matter of taste. It sound more natural this way, and most readers wont care about minor nuances.

Ahh damn I originally wanted to say that at least the 2 translations of the LN differ in their choice of words but totally forgot about that while posting..I'm incredibly sorry :-( .

Here are the 2 versions of the 10 Oaths (in a spoiler for space reasons):

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:

Because Sora didn't invent a new rule. This gets to the essence of what this show is about, taking rules and using them to your advantage. This is why I keep calling this a "legal" show, because that is what Sora is doing, he is acting like a star lawyer twisting words to his advantage.

I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

For Kurumi the rules said: My pieces can move forward 3 spaces because I use magic for it.

For Sora these rules mean: Kurumi can move her pieces 3 spaces, therefore the original rules of chess need to be at least bend. He then asks himself what change of rules could make that happen (while at the same time making the pieces refuse Shiro's orders) and then grounds his strategy on the theory that the pieces got a will of their own with Kurumi using magic to force her will on them, hence he can interact with said will by himself.

For Kurumi Sora's conclusion is impossible because she herself did not anticipate the rule change in that way, hence Sora bend Kurumi's rule to his own advantage.

EDIT: Oh come on, GreenDrag, again? xD I even refreshed the page 3 mins before posting to see if sb answered :-D

Caleb8980May 3, 2014 1:14 PM

May 3, 2014 2:30 PM

#321

ND_RS

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Apr 2014

4

Awesome Match with Kurumi. It's beyond words. All the 4 episodes was so great.The thing i like the most is that the [Blank], they never does anything recklessly. Each move that they make they give thorough thought into it. Even if it's in game or other things....Sora and Shiro the perfect king and queen for the imanity.....

May 3, 2014 5:37 PM

#322

KamuiScott

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Apr 2014

10

The episode was good but the show is a little predicable

May 4, 2014 12:34 AM

#323

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GreenDrag said:

Helpme said:

I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

What he's been trying to get through for what seems like an eternity by now, is simple.

Kurami made the rules of the game, however, due to the rules not being specific enough, Sora found loopholes, gateways and uncovered areas. After finding them, he exploited them.

Just repeating the claim isn't very helpful. What loophole was there that allowed that end? This is what I'm asking.

Caleb8980 said:

Helpme said:
I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

For Sora these rules mean: Kurumi can move her pieces 3 spaces, therefore the original rules of chess need to be at least bend. He then asks himself what change of rules could make that happen (while at the same time making the pieces refuse Shiro's orders) and then grounds his strategy on the theory that the pieces got a will of their own with Kurumi using magic to force her will on them, hence he can interact with said will by himself.

Why would he need such a theory when it was an explicitly stated rule? Why wouldn't he understand it when she said it was so? I also don't see the relevance.

Caleb8980 said:

For Kurumi Sora's conclusion is impossible because she herself did not anticipate the rule change in that way, hence Sora bend Kurumi's rule to his own advantage.

OK, now you're jumping way ahead of me. So she didn't anticipate the rule change, meaning it's not something that is done in their world, but how could he change the rule in the first place? This also means that no one else have done it, or at least very few, over the pat, was it a thousand years? How come?

May 4, 2014 1:59 AM

#324

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Feb 2014

422

Helpme said:

Caleb8980 said:

Helpme said:
I don't see how that matches your initial claim? Unless you somehow derive it from 'pieces have a will of their own', but I don't see how that could be.

For Sora these rules mean: Kurumi can move her pieces 3 spaces, therefore the original rules of chess need to be at least bend. He then asks himself what change of rules could make that happen (while at the same time making the pieces refuse Shiro's orders) and then grounds his strategy on the theory that the pieces got a will of their own with Kurumi using magic to force her will on them, hence he can interact with said will by himself.

Why would he need such a theory when it was an explicitly stated rule? Why wouldn't he understand it when she said it was so? I also don't see the relevance.

Caleb8980 said:

For Kurumi Sora's conclusion is impossible because she herself did not anticipate the rule change in that way, hence Sora bend Kurumi's rule to his own advantage.

OK, now you're jumping way ahead of me. So she didn't anticipate the rule change, meaning it's not something that is done in their world, but how could he change the rule in the first place? This also means that no one else have done it, or at least very few, over the pat, was it a thousand years? How come?

Ok, I can see you are not getting my point ;D

Then step-by-step:

1. The rules of chess e. g. state that a pawn can only advance 1 step vertically, only at starting position they can move 2 steps ahead.

2. Those rules would be true for the game Sora vs. Kurumi, too. So she asked the elf to change the pieces with magic...too be more precise she wanted a magic that her pieces fulfill her every order so that they could advance steps that would normally be impossible for those pieces.

3. The elf used magic to influence the pieces and now comes the important part:

So that she could brainwash the pieces, those pieces first needed an awareness (or own free will), so she gave the pieces a free will and then bend that will with magic for Kurumi's pieces.

4. The match: Shiro uses a normal beginning move by advancing a pawn 2 steps ahead.
Now Kurumi uses "her" magic to move a pawn 3 steps ahead; she didn't know the pieces had a will of their own, she thought that those pieces would be just moving according to her orders because of Feel's magic.

5. Sora deduces the theory that I pointed out in my last post.

6. Kurumi loses but doesn't know why, because she didn't know in the first place why Sora's pieces moved to his will without him using magic, hence she thinks he used magic to cheat, just like she did.

Hence Sora used Kurumi's rules for his own convenience :D

May 4, 2014 2:52 AM

#325

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199

Caleb8980 said:
Now Kurumi uses "her" magic to move a pawn 3 steps ahead; she didn't know the pieces had a will of their own, she thought that those pieces would be just moving according to her orders because of Feel's magic.

I still don't understand where you are getting this from. She herself was the one who stated that they have a will of their own.

Caleb8980 said:

6. Kurumi loses but doesn't know why, because she didn't know in the first place why Sora's pieces moved to his will without him using magic, hence she thinks he used magic to cheat, just like she did.

Hence Sora used Kurumi's rules for his own convenience :D

You're jumping ahead again. Just repeating that it made her lose doesn't explain how.

May 4, 2014 3:20 AM

#326

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422

Helpme said:

Caleb8980 said:
Now Kurumi uses "her" magic to move a pawn 3 steps ahead; she didn't know the pieces had a will of their own, she thought that those pieces would be just moving according to her orders because of Feel's magic.

I still don't understand where you are getting this from. She herself was the one who stated that they have a will of their own.

Caleb8980 said:

6. Kurumi loses but doesn't know why, because she didn't know in the first place why Sora's pieces moved to his will without him using magic, hence she thinks he used magic to cheat, just like she did.

Hence Sora used Kurumi's rules for his own convenience :D

You're jumping ahead again. Just repeating that it made her lose doesn't explain how.

Ok we are talking about different free wills in the first place

Helpme said:

Caleb8980 said:
Now Kurumi uses "her" magic to move a pawn 3 steps ahead; she didn't know the pieces had a will of their own, she thought that those pieces would be just moving according to her orders because of Feel's magic.

I still don't understand where you are getting this from. She herself was the one who stated that they have a will of their own.

Caleb8980 said:

6. Kurumi loses but doesn't know why, because she didn't know in the first place why Sora's pieces moved to his will without him using magic, hence she thinks he used magic to cheat, just like she did.

Hence Sora used Kurumi's rules for his own convenience :D

You're jumping ahead again. Just repeating that it made her lose doesn't explain how.

Ok I admit I used the wrong words to convey what I mean, I got heated up and totally missed the point, sorry for that.

Now in better choice of words XD

She knew the pieces had a free will, but not that this free will would totally kill the rules of chess like only moving one piece in one turn. Hence her surprise when Sora first used this move (btw this was sth I only get after long thinking and even posting it wrong in here so sorry about that once again).

She used magic so that the free will of her pieces would not obstruct their movement and that her pieces could convert the ones of the enemy.

You could say that Sora was faster in seeing that this wasn't chess anymore than Kurumi, that's why he won in the end.

But because she couldn't see that the free will of the pieces allowed e. g. movements of more than one piece at a time her conclusion was that Sora used magic, so was cheating.

May 4, 2014 3:58 AM

#327

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564054

i don't understand this anime.why is it so liked ? it's not even that good so far. i guess i haven't focused on the episodes enough. the opening is good and i like the main charachters but i'm just not intrested in some battle shit.

May 4, 2014 8:47 AM

#328

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Oct 2012

6648

Helpme said:
I still don't understand where you are getting this from. She herself was the one who stated that they have a will of their own.

Caleb is a bit off on his description. Kurumi knew about how the elf worked, and created the excuse of "will" to cover up that she was using elven magic to force the pieces to move in "unchesslike ways". The animation visualized by having her pieces wrapped in red binds.

Kurumi didn't give any thought to what happens when pieces are given will. Because in this world only magic matters, the "will" of the player (particularly human players) means nothing, there is no reason why she should have thought that giving them will would mean anything except be a hindrance to the siblings.
All she could think of after Sora injected actual will was brainwashing.

Sora, not having had his spirit crushed in this world like all other humans (including Kurumi) knew that will could be used positively, so he inspired his players as he did. This did not introduce a new "rule" to the game because if the pieces have will than they CAN move as they did. If they have will then they can switch sides.

I think I confused matters above by simplifying that the pieces really didn't have will. The did, however what they did not have until Sora provided it was true volition. They only had the type of will that allows one to act passively and re-actively - so they could decide NOT to do something unless forced to by elven magic. This is why Kurumi thought that giving will could only help her.

What she failed to consider, and again this goes back to her thinking that nothing humans did would matter without magic, was that there is another type of will: volition. The type of will that allows one to be proactive and actively, instead of passively, by providing motivation. This though had to be provided from an external source, since of course the pieces were in the blank slates with no real prior history outside of the forms their pieces have on the chess board.

What made this episode fun was that Sora understood all this, so he was able to appeal to the pieces on a piece by piece level:
1) Foot soldiers are motivated by the prospect of reward, Sora promised them that.
2) Queens respond to flattery and romance (particularly when in a loveless relationship), Sora promised that
3) Knights fight for fair ladies (the whole chivalry concept), so Sora could use that to convert the knight

This is a bit off subject, but why Sora could break the brainwashing is simple: you can't brainwash someone to do something they don't want to do. Brainwashing involves changing people's motivations so that they now agree with you. Kurumi didn't do this, she tried to impose her thoughts on people, which gave Sora the chance to make personal appeals to their core identities as pieces to help them break the brainwashing.

I hope this helps. If you have a more specific question please feel free to write me.

May 4, 2014 10:38 AM

#329

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Feb 2014

422

Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:
I still don't understand where you are getting this from. She herself was the one who stated that they have a will of their own.

Caleb is a bit off on his description. Kurumi knew about how the elf worked, and created the excuse of "will" to cover up that she was using elven magic to force the pieces to move in "unchesslike ways". The animation visualized by having her pieces wrapped in red binds.

Kurumi didn't give any thought to what happens when pieces are given will. Because in this world only magic matters, the "will" of the player (particularly human players) means nothing, there is no reason why she should have thought that giving them will would mean anything except be a hindrance to the siblings.
All she could think of after Sora injected actual will was brainwashing.

Sora, not having had his spirit crushed in this world like all other humans (including Kurumi) knew that will could be used positively, so he inspired his players as he did. This did not introduce a new "rule" to the game because if the pieces have will than they CAN move as they did. If they have will then they can switch sides.

I think I confused matters above by simplifying that the pieces really didn't have will. The did, however what they did not have until Sora provided it was true volition. They only had the type of will that allows one to act passively and re-actively - so they could decide NOT to do something unless forced to by elven magic. This is why Kurumi thought that giving will could only help her.

What she failed to consider, and again this goes back to her thinking that nothing humans did would matter without magic, was that there is another type of will: volition. The type of will that allows one to be proactive and actively, instead of passively, by providing motivation. This though had to be provided from an external source, since of course the pieces were in the blank slates with no real prior history outside of the forms their pieces have on the chess board.

What made this episode fun was that Sora understood all this, so he was able to appeal to the pieces on a piece by piece level:
1) Foot soldiers are motivated by the prospect of reward, Sora promised them that.
2) Queens respond to flattery and romance (particularly when in a loveless relationship), Sora promised that
3) Knights fight for fair ladies (the whole chivalry concept), so Sora could use that to convert the knight

This is a bit off subject, but why Sora could break the brainwashing is simple: you can't brainwash someone to do something they don't want to do. Brainwashing involves changing people's motivations so that they now agree with you. Kurumi didn't do this, she tried to impose her thoughts on people, which gave Sora the chance to make personal appeals to their core identities as pieces to help them break the brainwashing.

I hope this helps. If you have a more specific question please feel free to write me.

Yep I was a bit wrong there :D

Well to make a full circle to my post before the last one :

Kurumi's definition of a free will is completely different from Sora's, hence one could say she didn't think that the pieces had one, at least not in the way Sora thought. One could also say hers is far more narrow minded, because she adheres to the general rule of this world - Humanity is weaker than magic - and why should she think different?
If I recall right the war has ended since centuries and since then humans mostly lost in all games, because they can't use magic and don't have any kind of supreme technology; each race's resistance/will would break under that pressure.

But Sora was a stranger to this world, his definition of free will goes much wider and obviously this definition is the better one, as seen ;-)

Well I mostly repeated what you said but I at least wanted to complete my point ^^

May 4, 2014 10:45 AM

#330

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Jun 2012

199

Caleb8980 said:
You could say that Sora was faster in seeing that this wasn't chess anymore than Kurumi, that's why he won in the end.

OK, such insight should be useful but how that alone explains the victory, and it being within the rules too, that eludes me. Maybe it's obvious, but that it should be easy to mention?

Takuan_Soho said:

I hope this helps. If you have a more specific question please feel free to write me.

Not really. Maybe you are right about all those details, I don't feel the anime has enough information to say for sure, but I don't get how they are supposed to be an answer to the question.

May 4, 2014 11:50 AM

#331

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Oct 2012

6648

Helpme said:
Not really. Maybe you are right about all those details, I don't feel the anime has enough information to say for sure, but I don't get how they are supposed to be an answer to the question.

No, the animation does give the information to work this out, but it does rely on the readers to understand the motivations of pawns, knights, queens, and kings.

I'll try one more time, maybe we just need to walk this through differently.

Reasons 1-10

I want to stop here to stress this point. In the feudal age (which chess is based on), Kings ALWAYS fought in battle. This connection between the soldiers and the leader was essential: Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Edward the Black Prince, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Fredrick Barbarossa all personally lead their soldiers in battle. It is what gave them authority. A king unwilling to fight was a coward, his soldiers would desert him, as would his queen. This is one thing that the writer is assuming that the reader understands.

The writer knows this and Sora's speech reflects this. Because Kurumi would not sacrifice herself as King, Sora claimed she was unfit to rule, but because Shiro was willing to sacrifice herself, she was fit to command (of course for humor sake he takes it one step and makes it about cuteness, but that is what gives it the extra little entertaining bit). Instead of cuteness, think beauty in its most general form: the beauty of seeing courage, the beauty of being part of a team, that is what has motivated people to fight with passion.

At this point it is also important that Sora's speech said "Proud Knights, Bishops, Rooks, show me deeds befitting of your rank". This is important because it will help defeat the brainwashing response that Kurumi comes up with next.

Reasons 11-17

From there, the game is really over. Kurumi as King broke the one rule of chivalry, from there the course of her defeat was pretty much scripted. I explained a couple of pages ago how Sora backed her psychologically into a corner where she basically suicides as King.

Edit: The reason I am going on at length is because I respect a writer who thinks things through, and based on how Sora and Shiro explain/speechify through the game, it is very very clear that the writer meant everything I wrote. So my taking time to explain it is my form of homage to the writer.

TyrelMay 6, 2014 1:32 AM

May 4, 2014 4:53 PM

#332

LoneWizzy

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Jan 2014

6259

Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:
Not really. Maybe you are right about all those details, I don't feel the anime has enough information to say for sure, but I don't get how they are supposed to be an answer to the question.

No, the animation does give the information to work this out, but it does rely on the readers to understand the motivations of pawns, knights, queens, and kings.

i read almost all you posts.yea i agree that they explained everything very well and it was really logical,right until the assasination part.

lets assume that ok everything is like that,king didnt fight and will be assasinated.but how did he knew that the king was going to be assasinated in that exact moment?or why did king assasinated in that exact moment?it was too much luck,and blank doesnt do thing depending on luck that much...

May 4, 2014 5:12 PM

#333

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Oct 2012

6648

LonelyWizard said:
lets assume that ok everything is like that,king didnt fight and will be assasinated.but how did he knew that the king was going to be assasinated in that exact moment?or why did king assasinated in that exact moment?it was too much luck,and blank doesnt do thing depending on luck that much...

I explained this a couple of pages back. The "assassination" occurred because Kurumi thought that they were using magic on her. Is was a psychological assassination.

Basically Sora backed her into a corner where she either had to admit that Blank wasn't using magic and humans could win, or accept that what he was doing was magic and she couldn't fight the assassination, and she picked the later. That this was the case was shown by having the king have Kurumi's eyes, him having the same haircut as Kurumi when was he thinking he was poisoned and Kurumi falling to the ground with the King. It was also made clear that this was what happened when Shiro warned Sora about backing a weakened foe into a corner, and Sora said that was his intent. He broke Kurumi's will, and since they were their respective Kings, when she fell, so did her king.

The reason she picked the latter choice was that if she admitted to the former, then what she was doing was betraying the human race (if humans could win she shouldn't have allied herself with an elf), and that was never her intent. This is why the first question she asked them after the match was which race was on their side, and then being confronted with the fact that they were humans she broke down.

On the bright side since her intentions were good, this will help her become a better, stronger, person, and I foresee her becoming blank's ally better, though that is just a guess on my part.

May 4, 2014 5:22 PM

#334

LoneWizzy

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Jan 2014

6259

Takuan_Soho said:

LonelyWizard said:
lets assume that ok everything is like that,king didnt fight and will be assasinated.but how did he knew that the king was going to be assasinated in that exact moment?or why did king assasinated in that exact moment?it was too much luck,and blank doesnt do thing depending on luck that much...

I explained this a couple of pages back. The "assassination" occurred because Kurumi thought that they were using magic on her. Is was a psychological assassination.

Basically Sora backed her into a corner where she either had to admit that Blank wasn't using magic and humans could win, or accept that what he was doing was magic and she couldn't fight the assassination, and she picked the later. That this was the case was shown by having the king have Kurumi's eyes, him having the same haircut as Kurumi when was he thinking he was poisoned and Kurumi falling to the ground with the King. It was also made clear that this was what happened when Shiro warned Sora about backing a weakened foe into a corner, and Sora said that was his intent. He broke Kurumi's will, and since they were their respective Kings, when she fell, so did her king.

The reason she picked the latter choice was that if she admitted to the former, then what she was doing was betraying the human race (if humans could win she shouldn't have allied herself with an elf), and that was never her intent. This is why the first question she asked them after the match was which race was on their side, and then being confronted with the fact that they were humans she broke down.

On the bright side since her intentions were good, this will help her become a better, stronger, person, and I foresee her becoming blank's ally better, though that is just a guess on my part.

already read it while you were answering.fair enough explanation.thanks

May 4, 2014 5:28 PM

#335

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Feb 2014

422

LonelyWizard said:

Takuan_Soho said:

Helpme said:
Not really. Maybe you are right about all those details, I don't feel the anime has enough information to say for sure, but I don't get how they are supposed to be an answer to the question.

No, the animation does give the information to work this out, but it does rely on the readers to understand the motivations of pawns, knights, queens, and kings.

i read almost all you posts.yea i agree that they explained everything very well and it was really logical,right until the assasination part.

lets assume that ok everything is like that,king didnt fight and will be assasinated.but how did he knew that the king was going to be assasinated in that exact moment?or why did king assasinated in that exact moment?it was too much luck,and blank doesnt do thing depending on luck that much...

The problem was not only that Kurumi (the king) did not fight, that was not the reason she was assasinated, the problem was that she ordered her pieces to fight against the pieces that were originally her own but opened a new "party" in the field without giving them any bigger reason (sth like the speech Sora gave) why to do so.

She was killed because she ordered to kill allies that did nothing wrong; they opened a new faction instead of joining Sora's forces with that negating the feeling of fighting against an army that had just defected (or chickened out) to a sworn enemy.

Yeah, they changed their affiliation but Sora gave good reasons for fighting under his banner (he was a fair king with a good talent for warfare and speeches), while Kurumi only tried to force her pieces to act (hence she was a tyran).

And as explained in all great empires throughout all ages most tyrans were sooner or later assasinated, by fighting against her own people she just forced them to act.

Or in one sentence: If she didn't order her own pieces to kill their former allies she wouldn't be assasinated.

EDIT: @Takuan_Soho

Hmm your point is also interesting and undoubtly not wrong but I can see both what I said and you said happening at the same time without interfering badly with each other :-D

Caleb8980May 4, 2014 5:37 PM

May 5, 2014 3:50 AM

#336

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Jun 2012

199

Takuan_Soho said:

From there, the game is really over. Kurumi as King broke the one rule of chivalry, from there the course of her defeat was pretty much scripted.

I'm sorry, but to me it seems you are doing the same thing over and over; make lots of claims, which may well be true, but when the time comes to explaining how they are relevant, at most we get vagueness like this. If it is pretty much scripted, it should be easy to explain.

Takuan_Soho said:
I explained this a couple of pages back. The "assassination" occurred because Kurumi thought that they were using magic on her. Is was a psychological assassination.

Basically Sora backed her into a corner where she either had to admit that Blank wasn't using magic and humans could win, or accept that what he was doing was magic and she couldn't fight the assassination, and she picked the later.

Actually, that just brings you back to the start. There is still no such rule, and since you've claimed that he didn't create a new one too, so if anything it's a worse explanation now.

Caleb8980 said:

And as explained in all great empires throughout all ages most tyrans were sooner or later assasinated, by fighting against her own people she just forced them to act.

As a side note, while it doesn't matter, you should know that this is not actually historically correct; some where killed, most weren't.

May 5, 2014 6:58 AM

#337

MiMi3016

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Aug 2013

229

although Deathly afraid of crowds Sora somehow overcomes his fear in an instant and manages to pull out a bad ass speech, epic ep loving this series so far

Yo

May 5, 2014 8:31 AM

#338

Zelot

SetoMary Fanatic

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Jun 2013

5194

Thread cleaned of spam and off topic posts. Quote towers made shorter

Colors! MORE COLORS
Amazing speech, it did a very good job at getting me hype.
Interesting way to see the end of the chess match... would have preferred a more solid ending, but this is fine. No problems.

I am getting a Enders Game sort of feel.. controling troops and such

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May 5, 2014 8:56 AM

#339

Mauroki

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Oct 2012

223

Sora is a really good MC.

May 5, 2014 11:38 AM

#340

herrokan

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Aug 2013

33

Holy shit so fun to watch, hope it stays great

May 5, 2014 1:48 PM

#341

Eijikita_Rukaede

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May 2013

167

Epic speech. Stephanie in that maid costume is so cute.

If you want everything you'll end up with nothing.

May 5, 2014 8:07 PM

#342

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Oct 2012

6648

Helpme said:
I'm sorry, but to me it seems you are doing the same thing over and over; make lots of claims, which may well be true, but when the time comes to explaining how they are relevant, at most we get vagueness like this. If it is pretty much scripted, it should be easy to explain.

No, the problem is that you want things to happen a certain way and if they don't you refuse to accept it. There is nothing "vague" about saying that "Knights don't attack queens". I even provided an example from 1000 years ago (Tristan and Isolde) and one from today (Shrek). What you are calling vague is a key concept behind "chivalry", which is one of the key plot lines in Western Civilization. Other examples would be Lancelot, El Cid, and Ivanhoe, it is so basic that there is even the cliche "the knight in shining armor" and the great novel Don Quixote written 500 years ago was able to brilliantly lampoon it.

Helpme said:
Actually, that just brings you back to the start. There is still no such rule, and since you've claimed that he didn't create a new one too, so if anything it's a worse explanation now.

Uhm, you really really need to stop thinking about rules. From the first episode where Sora showed that the cheating rule didn't actually prevent cheating the writer has shown that rules mean nothing in this world. This again is why I call this "legal" as opposed to "game". Rules in this world are MEANT to be broken, just as long as such cheating complies with the FORM of the rule, if not the intent. Nothing that Sora did broke a rule.

As for "that isn't historically accurate", you are correct, however the point wasn't that Sora was stating some great TRUTH, the point was to make Kurumi doubt herself. This gets back to what I said about Kurumi earlier: she didn't want to be a leader to rule, she wanted to become a leader to save humanity. Had she been a true tyrant, Sora's strategy would have failed, but because she honestly did want to save humanity (as explained in episode 3 when she in earnest tried to explain her position to Sora) what Shiro did was to goad her into acting like a tyrant (by making her think she was about to lose to humans backed by some other race) and then forced her to understand this which is what caused her to suicide.

I can explain this as many different ways as there are seconds in a year, I have quoted multiple lines from the show which supports my interpretation that the writer meant everything that I said. I am sure that the novels actually cover this much better (haven't read them), so to put it bluntly, the problem isn't with this show, the problem is with you.

May 5, 2014 8:30 PM

#343

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Oct 2012

6648

As the next episode is about to be bequeathed to us, I want to close this thread with a small point.

Blank goading Tet at the end was brilliant. The "Trickster God" refusing to be out tricked, Shiro looking at Sora, the look of awe on Tet's face when Shiro said "never quit when you're ahead". All sets a grand stage for the next arc of this series.

Let the Games (or in this case, endless bending of the rules per the dictum of the Trickster God) begin!!!

Ah, last point. Put yourself in Stephs shoes. The vagabonds she found not only defeated Elven magic, but now she knows they are on first name basis with the Supreme God. Talk about a reality adjustment!

Takuan_SohoMay 5, 2014 8:34 PM

May 6, 2014 4:00 AM

#344

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Jun 2012

199

Takuan_Soho said:

No, the problem is that you want things to happen a certain way and if they don't you refuse to accept it. There is nothing "vague" about saying that "Knights don't attack queens". I even provided an example from 1000 years ago (Tristan and Isolde) and one from today (Shrek). What you are calling vague is a key concept behind "chivalry", which is one of the key plot lines in Western Civilization. Other examples would be Lancelot, El Cid, and Ivanhoe, it is so basic that there is even the cliche "the knight in shining armor" and the great novel Don Quixote written 500 years ago was able to brilliantly lampoon it.

There is no need for that sort of hostility. So chivalry is the supposed to be the connecter, but I still don't see how. In fact, there really isn't anything in your earlier post to indicate that the chivalry point was special.

Takuan_Soho said:

Uhm, you really really need to stop thinking about rules. From the first episode where Sora showed that the cheating rule didn't actually prevent cheating the writer has shown that rules mean nothing in this world.

Frankly, that's a silly position to take. If rules meant nothing, there would be violent wars. And game rules apply to, why else was a royal flush a winning hand and not a losing one? If rules meant nothing, everyone would just declare themselves the winner.

No, rules apply. Smart people try to use them to their advantage, in various way, eg. trying to find loopholes. But they need those loopholes just because the rules do mean something.

That's why your position seems impossible. There is no rule for "psychological assassinations", one may not unilaterally add rules, and if there is to be a loophole, just saying that it's 'scripted' and has something to do with 'chivalry' isn't enough.

May 6, 2014 4:55 AM

#345

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Feb 2014

422

Helpme said:

Takuan_Soho said:

No, the problem is that you want things to happen a certain way and if they don't you refuse to accept it. There is nothing "vague" about saying that "Knights don't attack queens". I even provided an example from 1000 years ago (Tristan and Isolde) and one from today (Shrek). What you are calling vague is a key concept behind "chivalry", which is one of the key plot lines in Western Civilization. Other examples would be Lancelot, El Cid, and Ivanhoe, it is so basic that there is even the cliche "the knight in shining armor" and the great novel Don Quixote written 500 years ago was able to brilliantly lampoon it.

There is no need for that sort of hostility. So chivalry is the supposed to be the connecter, but I still don't see how. In fact, there really isn't anything in your earlier post to indicate that the chivalry point was special.

Takuan_Soho said:

Uhm, you really really need to stop thinking about rules. From the first episode where Sora showed that the cheating rule didn't actually prevent cheating the writer has shown that rules mean nothing in this world.

Frankly, that's a silly position to take. If rules meant nothing, there would be violent wars. And game rules apply to, why else was a royal flush a winning hand and not a losing one? If rules meant nothing, everyone would just declare themselves the winner.

No, rules apply. Smart people try to use them to their advantage, in various way, eg. trying to find loopholes. But they need those loopholes just because the rules do mean something.

That's why your position seems impossible. There is no rule for "psychological assassinations", one may not unilaterally add rules, and if there is to be a loophole, just saying that it's 'scripted' and has something to do with 'chivalry' isn't enough.

Rules are there to be bend, and sry but rules are ALWAYS meant to be broken; if nobody did that there would be no reason for rules in first place and that is true for the real world, too, not only for this anime.

The reason why some break those rules and some don't doesn't stem from the rules itself but the punishment that follows breaking those.
For people who break those rules their motivation either comes from pur psychological reasons (like e. g. anger or despair) or from looking at what is to be gained and lost and determining that the losing side doesn't matter for you in the face of what you could obtain.

Now for this anime rules are a bit different:

Apart from the cheating rule none of the rules has any punishment stated if broken.
That means that:
either
1.Tet wants them to be broken
or
2.that the inhabitants of Disboard CAN'T break them.

From personal observation it becomes clear that apart from the cheating rule the second point is reality, while for the cheating rule the first point is.

So rules mean indeed everything but at another scale as you point out. Those rules are no rules but more like life deciding matters, if you want a clear word, destiny hence they are not broken.

Also you are taking Takuan's posts way too literal...it is clear that there are rules that can't be broken apart from the 10 oaths like that a royal flush is higher than a full house as that is what is defining poker. If you would break those rules then it wouldn't be poker anymore.

But that is the point: Once you started a game you can't change the game's rules anymore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't change the rules before starting it; hence chess became a war game.

And yeah there is no rule for psychological assassinations but if you are unable to continue the game, you have lost, that should be obvious, isn't it?
Kurumi's will to win was broken by Sora, hence she gave herself up and lost the match; what happened at the board was explained by me just some posts back :D

Caleb8980May 6, 2014 4:58 AM

May 6, 2014 11:28 AM

#346

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Jun 2012

199

Caleb8980 said:

Helpme said:

No, rules apply. Smart people try to use them to their advantage, in various way, eg. trying to find loopholes. But they need those loopholes just because the rules do mean something.

Now for this anime rules are a bit different:

Apart from the cheating rule none of the rules has any punishment stated if broken.
That means that:
either
1.Tet wants them to be broken
or
2.that the inhabitants of Disboard CAN'T break them.

From personal observation it becomes clear that apart from the cheating rule the second point is reality, while for the cheating rule the first point is.

So rules mean indeed everything but at another scale as you point out. Those rules are no rules but more like life deciding matters, if you want a clear word, destiny hence they are not broken.

So you agree that the rules are meant to be meaningful, and a scenario that goes against them shouldn't be possible.

I think you wrong about point 8. It's meant to apply in the same way as the others. It could have been 'no cheating', but it isn't, so clearly cheating is intended. But what the rule does says is meant to appy, so someone caught cheating can't argue that they didn't lose.

Caleb8980 said:

Kurumi's will to win was broken by Sora, hence she gave herself up and lost the match; what happened at the board was explained by me just some posts back :D

So you're saying that she decided to give up? If so, that's really bad writing since it was never shown, instead it shows her being shocked and surprised at losing. It doesn't match the motivation that were shown either.

May 6, 2014 12:11 PM

#347

Dimitrije1606

Offline

Jun 2013

1426

I don't give a damn about logic in this anime, you guys do understand that this is making parody on Jojo, which is already crazy enough. I enjoy it, be it colors, be it Jojo part in it or be it flawed logic. That motivational speech was pure awesomeness, and I have fun with every episode I watch.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

May 6, 2014 12:25 PM

#348