Spotlight Character: Griffith (Berserk) MAL Character Information Page: Griffith MAL Favorites: 120 For the next week I would like to have everyone familiar with Griffith discuss what they think makes him an exceptional character. What attributes make him stand out in the ocean of interesting characters that exist in the realms of anime and manga. Unlike the other two subjects I will not force this conversation to fall into any set structure. Characters that are nominated typically get here because they are adept at breaking the existing character molds and defying definition. Because of this freedom I encourage everyone to do their very best to stay on topic and keep any and all debate civil. Have fun and I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say about this character. *Due to voting rule changes, this character is permanently inducted from its first poll data. RESULTS OF THE "YOU DECIDE" POLL Griffith was inducted into the club Character list: 37 Yes - 82.22% 08 No - 27.88% 66 Don't Know - 59.46% of the total number polled Approximately 6 months from 2/16/2009, Griffith will have to be revoted for a second time |
LindleApr 2, 2013 2:28 PM
| [cp-ed from the poll-less and hence deleted thread] 'I am the wellspring from which you flow.' Thus James Earl Jones, in typical dramatic voice, to Arnold Schwarzenegger, somewhere in 1982. My reasons for quoting from the Conan movie may be questioned, and in answer I can point to the scene in which the quote is stated: the Villain tells the Hero that it was his, the Villain's, acts that spurred the Hero, tempering the latter in fire. Without the Villain, the Hero would not exist. This is, of course, a truism widely acknowledged by writers in general, and it is often used as a means to make the connection between the Villain and the Hero more personal. Very often, as well, the Villain even manages to rationalise his misdeeds by pointing to some period in time wherein the Hero did not save the Villain-to-be, leaving him or her to her presumably dark fate. Yet, for all the importance the Villain has in many a story, it is interesting that none of the character relations of this club are Villains. Let me immediately rephrase that, as Dantès at least could be considered one, and use the more value-neutral term of 'antagonist'. In the case of Berserk, the above seems particularly true, as Griffith and Guts/Gattsu/Whatever are, in the end, made by each other's actions, with one of the two being forced to play the role of antagonist almost by accident. The very first thing shown of Griffith is his youth, and some remarks are made of his prowess as a commander despite his youth. Only slowly does it become apparent that this character fulfills the role of a genius commander, a hero on the battlefield, and a symbol for all those who serve under him. He is shown to be intelligent, at least interested in various things and a quick learner, and he is appreciated as someone who can make things happen by sheer force of will and presence. Certainly not overly deep a thinker, he holds true to his personal set of values, and remains holding fast to them throughout the entirety of the series up to this point. And he never lies, never refrains from pointing out exactly what these values are and for whom he fights, whether this might be hurtful to someone or not. More important than all this, though, is that he has the emotional and moral development of a child. From this, in fact, come his greatest strengths: his unwavering ambition and devotion to his dream, his complete ruthlessness and the ability to see the entire world to be shaped according to his desires. Seemingly without even realising it himself, Griffith rebels against notions of 'can't be done' and 'this is how the world works' and all the like, the acceptance of which is so often seen as maturing from puberty to adulthood. By remaining an idealist in all his being, a man who has no qualms with using and sacrificing everything and everyone to achieve his goals, he actually manages to climb up his way and to achieve what everyone around him holds impossible. (It is so evident, in fact, that the reader might be allowed to ask himself what makes it all that 'mature' to accept the world as it is instead of as it should be in the first place.) Moreover, he lacks any sense of responsibility except for his own desires and gains, rationalising his lack thereof (perhaps justly?) by explicitly mentioning that he has forced no-one to follow him, and that all who do so must be aware of the risks they're taking, all for no other reason than helping him fulfill his dream. Even his often-mentioned dream itself is that of a child in its simplicity and motivation. It is nothing but to gain 'the castle', a kingdom of his own, for no reason but having possession of it. Here and there, some motivation is put into the dream: to build a land unfettered by the laws and customs of old, to build a nation for the downtrodden and the oppressed, and whatnot. Nothing of this, perhaps more noble, purpose is visible in Griffith's own words, however. Even von Lohengramm has a more developed sense of what he wants to win the universe for, making his original personal vendetta against nobility into something larger and building it upon a theory of political philosophy, however rudimentary. Griffith's is a childish desire, pure and simple. (As an aside, it should perhaps be noted that nowhere are we given more than the smallest glimpse of Griffith's background. There is no motivation, no reason, for his actions given. And rightly so, as doing so would lessen the ruthless force of the ambition.) It is no coincidence, therefore, that he attracts the young, the ambitious, and the passionate. It is no coincidence that, when he starts to shape the world by his ideas of story and myth, it is mentioned that it was the young who noticed it first. The image is repeated many times over the newer volumes of the manga: through his child-like vision the world is changed and the children are given the opportunity to change with it, unfettered by morality. To drift into a comparison once more, modern interpretations of Achilles, of Iliad fame, have made him a petulant child, a sulking brute with a one-track mind. Homer and co. are clearly aware of this, but it is exactly these qualities that make him into a hero in the literal sense: Achilles is passionate, active and nigh obsessive in everything he sets his mind to. Thus, he is unwavering, and without qualms he sets out to win what he desires by the spear. To win by the spear, or, in this case, by the sword, also applies to the actions and motivations of Griffith, who purposely considers every encounter he is in as a battlefield, very explicitly referring to the political arena as one. What he wins is, in his mind and in effect, won by right of battle and, on the battlefield, to win is to win absolutely, with nothing left to the defeated. What's more, there cannot be any respect but for those who oppose him and fight him for their own beliefs and desires, but its a respect that's immediately lost after the opponent is defeated. To win is to own what is won, in a complete sense, such as becomes most apparent in his considering Guts to be fully 'his' after having beaten him. To be deprived of what he considers his, rightfully won, makes Griffith, again like Achilles, react with anger and even rage, for a moment losing his composure, even overplaying his hand. And when what was lost is won again, he proceeds to mark what is his and imprints his ownership thereon, furthermore using what is his as he sees fit, sometimes even showing off his ownership just to spite those whom he took it from (I feel that this is the main motivation for the rape of Caska, for instance). Within the whole of Berserk, Griffith, and often more accurately his ambition, is likened to a great light or flame, drawing all smaller flames towards him, thereby gaining enough of a following, or critical mass, if you will, to set things in motion. It is often suggested that whatever he does sends ripples through the world, altering reality and causality simply by his strong believe. This becomes even more apparent when he returns as the White Hawk, as he seems as of yet untouchable and unstoppable, changing destiny by his presence. These are all self-important words, and they're mostly true. The course of the character over the manga is literally an ascendancy from man to myth, as the more we advance in the series, the less human he becomes. By now, he is a mostly flat character, truly only a personification from myth, an archetype from a fairytale who, in his singular ambition, makes the world act like one from a fairytale. It should, therefore, come as no surprise that he is appreciated as such by those around him: Griffith attracts people by being something out of legend, transforming everything around himself into the stuff of legend, and making everyone feel as if they're living a legend. And no-one wants to leave his side, for fear of returning to the mundane. As such he, as a character, is himself the shaper of his story. It is, then, also very interesting to note that, when the man has become legend, he actually doesn't seem to do anything anymore, as his mere presence is a catalyst for change. There is little in the way of character development, simply as there is little to develop. Snippets of information here and there flesh him out a bit, making him, in the earlier volumes of the manga and in most of the anime, at any rate, something more than a flat character who does nothing but play role, but the brunt of his personality is borne by his outspoken devotion to his goals. Griffith acts unwaveringly, and, by and large, without a shred of doubt. The one point in time when he does doubt his actions, his beliefs and his style of life is addressed with the appropriate amount of care, time and pages, as it is a major turning point in the overall plot. The fact that he, ultimately, refuses to act on his doubts, whatever the reasons to do so, truly makes him what he is, to wit, a character with one goal and one goal only, who by his sheer passion and believe shapes the minds of those around him, and the world at larger as well. The sum of the character might best be described as a mediaeval von Lohengramm: an intelligent man who has learned to use his knowledge of military tactics in other fields of life; a man who has intimate knowledge of the workings of human ambition, knowing full well what makes his supporters tick and using this to his fullest; a man of overflowing charisma who is a master of human resources; a man who is sometimes rash, a bit too quick to lose his temper, though not his composure; and, more than anything else, a man driven forward by his obsessive ambition, aiming for what is generally held to be impossible. The main difference between the two in nature is Griffith's ruthlessness and lack of a sense of responsibility. Both are generally efficient, but lash out with a temper when crossed, and what makes their stories so much different is that, when Griffith lost his composure and overplayed his hand, there was no-one to cover for him as he fell. The comparison between the two also readily shows how, were the situation depicted just a tad different, and was Griffith seen explaining his ruthlessness in the time-honoured version of saying that, in the end, every man should follow his ambition before anything else, he could very well have been the hero of the story. In fact, he may very well still become it. As a man, Griffith shows how a lack of general well-roundedness can be overcome by a burning obsession to become a memorable character, while as a legend he is not so much a character as a personification of a force of nature. Both natures tie in marvelously with the greater plot, carrying it at times, even, and propelling it forward. In the end, whether or not to include him in the list seems to me to be related directly to the question whether a character needs to be able to be empathised with for it to be accepted in the list. Griffith is probably not someone most people can relate to. Nor does he have deep motives for what he does, as everything stems very clearly from a simple desire. Would he appear before a court of law and be submitted to examination, he probably would be considered to have some dissocial personality disorder, perhaps even be a psychopath. Yet, his character is consistent, reacts to changes in the circumstances and is as much a propellant as a result of the plot. So, yes, I suppose he has my vote. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| Griffith is the major star and driving force behind the anime and Golden Age arc of the manga; Guts is just the tough warrior narrator. Griffith is the bold, brave, arrogant, genius leader willing to go to extreme lengths to attain victory. He's even willing to sell his body sexually to a lecherous old man simply to finance the Band of the Hawk. He claws his very skin off and is constantly traumatized by the lives he's sacrificed and the ugly path he treads to the crown. He constantly has to win, and upon suffering defeat, at the hands of Guts, it overwhelms Griffith, and leads to his downfall. 9/10 and yes. |
ShaolinRibiero said: Griffith is the major star and driving force behind the anime and Golden Age arc of the manga; Guts is just the tough warrior narrator. Griffith is the bold, brave, arrogant, genius leader willing to go to extreme lengths to attain victory. He's even willing to sell his body sexually to a lecherous old man simply to finance the Band of the Hawk. He claws his very skin off and is constantly traumatized by the lives he's sacrificed and the ugly path he treads to the crown. He constantly has to win, and upon suffering defeat, at the hands of Guts, it overwhelms Griffith, and leads to his downfall. 9/10 and yes. So wait, are we keeping Griffith talk confined to the anime/Golden Arc? while a majority of Griffith's character was built in that space, i find his character even more interesting now. (while we have no way to know how it will all end at this point) i find his role as a hero/anti-hero to be quite interesting. We (readers) see him as the bad guy, given what he did to Guts/Caska (esp her, good lord) and the Band of the Hawk, yet, at least in at this point (chapter 301) he's not exactly the bad guy...i will be interested to see where it leads. as for Anime/golden arc....i agree with everything said above. i would add that his relationship with Guts is one of the more interesting character relationships that i have seen. Griffith flip-flops back and forth between treating Guts as a tool, like he treats most people and treating him as something more...a friend almost? maybe? can't quite tell where his head is... He is getting a big YES from me. |
 |
ghostxlix said: So wait, are we keeping Griffith talk confined to the anime/Golden Arc? while a majority of Griffith's character was built in that space, i find his character even more interesting now. Honestly, there hasn't been anything interesting to happen to Griffith's character since he transformed into the Femto. As part of the God Hand, he does precious little, gets reborn, assembles a new Band of the Hawk, then...does precious little except conquer Emperor Ganishka's territories. There honestly hasn't been any character development since the point where the anime ends, which is one reason I actually prefer it over the manga. ghostxlix said: (while we have no way to know how it will all end at this point) i find his role as a hero/anti-hero to be quite interesting. He is neither hero nor anti-hero. He is a very clear, unabashed villain. Once he is dead, Gut's quest is over. ghostxlix said: We (readers) see him as the bad guy, given what he did to Guts/Caska (esp her, good lord) Heh, it's actually very debatable who had it worse during his transformation into the Femto. |
ShaolinRibiero said: As part of the God Hand, he does precious little, gets reborn, assembles a new Band of the Hawk, then...does precious little except conquer Emperor Ganishka's territories. There honestly hasn't been any character development since the point where the anime ends, which is one reason I actually prefer it over the manga. Agreed, but then, is it really necessary for him to develop further? At this point it's almost as if he has come out of his 'cocoon' and reached his final stage, namely, truly a legend. In fact, his doing absolutely nothing really adds to the mood at this stage, and is very much in character with something mythical. Ganishka is perhaps the perfect example: Griffith has to do absolutely nothing to win over him when the two meet. Simply being there is enough. Granted, there is little of a 'character' left at this point, but that does not make him any less interesting or true to form. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
ShaolinRibiero said: Honestly, there hasn't been anything interesting to happen to Griffith's character since he transformed into the Femto. As part of the God Hand, he does precious little, gets reborn, assembles a new Band of the Hawk, then...does precious little except conquer Emperor Ganishka's territories. There honestly hasn't been any character development since the point where the anime ends, which is one reason I actually prefer it over the manga. Again, we don't know how this will play out in the end, but i think that Griffith is closer to his goal of gaining his kingdom then he was back during the anime/golden arc. the Griffith we know is one that is trying to gain his kingdom, but i wonder what will happen once he does get his kingdom. something tells me that Griffith will become King right around the time Guts decides to come back and kill him, which is going to be awesome. ShaolinRibiero said: He is neither hero nor anti-hero. He is a very clear, unabashed villain. Once he is dead, Gut's quest is over. i call him the hero/anti-hero because of what he is doing right now for Midland. He is rescuing the country from an evil threat (an evil Arab threat, another topic for another day) and at this point, it will be all flowers and smiles once he is done, its seems anyway. now, we all know what he had to do to get the power to do what he is doing now...again, the Eclipse. But it becomes a one of those moral questions. "Kill 100 people to save 10,000 people" type things. Yea, he killed the band of the hawk and scarred Guts/Caska for life...but he'll save the world...is he really that bad? Honestly, the only reason i think i look at it this way is because Berserk for the moment is split into two different stories, its two main characters on their two separate missions. Once they meet up again, i'm sure i will go back to hating Griffith with every fiber of my being. ShaolinRibiero said: Heh, it's actually very debatable who had it worse during his transformation into the Femto. Very true, although personally, if i had to choose between being raped to the point where my mind regresses to the IQ of a 2 year old, or watching the one person i love being raped to the point that her mind regresses to the IQ of a 2 year old, i would watch.....sick as that sounds. although, i would say that Caska had it better, only because she doesn't remember any of that horrible experience, something that i think will come into play when Guts tries to get her memory back...but i'm off topic now...i love Berserk... |
ghostxlixFeb 10, 2009 9:50 AM
| |
santetjan said: Agreed, but then, is it really necessary for him to develop further? At this point it's almost as if he has come out of his 'cocoon' and reached his final stage, namely, truly a legend. In fact, his doing absolutely nothing really adds to the mood at this stage, and is very much in character with something mythical. Ganishka is perhaps the perfect example: Griffith has to do absolutely nothing to win over him when the two meet. Simply being there is enough. Granted, there is little of a 'character' left at this point, but that does not make him any less interesting or true to form. Oh, I completely agree. I think his lack of quotes and character development is perfectly appropriate at this stage in the manga. ghostxlix said: i call him the hero/anti-hero because of what he is doing right now for Midland. He is rescuing the country from an evil threat (an evil Arab threat, another topic for another day) and at this point, it will be all flowers and smiles once he is done, its seems anyway. now, we all know what he had to do to get the power to do what he is doing now...again, the Eclipse. But it becomes a one of those moral questions. "Kill 100 people to save 10,000 people" type things. Yea, he killed the band of the hawk and scarred Guts/Caska for life...but he'll save the world...is he really that bad? Honestly, the only reason i think i look at it this way is because Berserk for the moment is split into two different stories, its two main characters on their two separate missions. Once they meet up again, i'm sure i will go back to hating Griffith with every fiber of my being. Sure, sure, but he's still the villain. He's fighting on the side of Midland, but that doesn't change his status as a character in the "Berserk" story. ghostxlix said: Very true, although personally, if i had to choose between being raped to the point where my mind regresses to the IQ of a 2 year old, or watching the one person i love being raped to the point that her mind regresses to the IQ of a 2 year old, i would watch.....sick as that sounds. although, i would say that Caska had it better, only because she doesn't remember any of that horrible experience, something that i think will come into play when Guts tries to get her memory back...but i'm off topic now...i love Berserk... Well, you forgot the part about Guts having his right eye gouged out and left forearm torn off, heh. They both suffered horrible mental and psychological duress, but personally, I would rather retain all my body parts... |
ShaolinRibiero said: Well, you forgot the part about Guts having his right eye gouged out and left forearm torn off, heh. They both suffered horrible mental and psychological duress, but personally, I would rather retain all my body parts... oh yea....thats true....but still, i get a crude gun/cannon to replace the arm (freakin sweet!) and i still got one good eye!! ----------------------------------- and i can't believe that only 4 people have thoughts on Griffith...terrible... |
| |
| 9/10 yesss. To this day every time i see a thread somewhere about favorite villains, my first thought is Griffith. He is brutal and gentle at the same time, and has a very intimate connection with the protagonist. And, like most good villains, he simply exudes cool. I'd type more, but santetjan pretty much said it all better than i would. |
| Not much more to add. I've only seen the anime, but Griffith is awesome. santetjan said: Within the whole of Berserk, Griffith, and often more accurately his ambition, is likened to a great light or flame, drawing all smaller flames towards him, thereby gaining enough of a following, or critical mass, if you will, to set things in motion. It is often suggested that whatever he does sends ripples through the world, altering reality and causality simply by his strong believe. This becomes even more apparent when he returns as the White Hawk, as he seems as of yet untouchable and unstoppable, changing destiny by his presence. ShaolinRibiero said: He constantly has to win, and upon suffering defeat, at the hands of Guts, it overwhelms Griffith, and leads to his downfall. ^ My favorite parts about Griffith. |
| I fail to see how this guy is such an awe- inspiring pinnacle of characterisation. Sorta like how I fail to see Berserk as a pinnacle of storytelling. I mean, he's done nicely enough, but jeez, he's really only per for the course. Oh yeah, and he doesn't become a villain until that asspull of a plot twist at the end of the flashback. |
| one of the many placid characters in an over hyped story NO |
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