Karpman said: the one thing which is still bugging me is that person OP mentioned had a job, boyfriend and a somewhat good life, she wasn't isolated or abused, so I didn't see a real reason to commit suicide. It's a disease :[ But I can assure you there were many real reasons for the suicide. When she got the job and boyfriend is when 'things were looking up' but as they started down again, having to work and having to give attention to a relationship were both just basically added stresses to the ultimate depression. |
 |
obbsworld said: And you're right. The negative reinforcement does work, as in this situation, it worked the first time. But once it's been used, it can't be used again. Would that be right? After all, she is going through the same or a very similar mental process... And the very first time she also knew, yet didn't take into account that she was loved by her family and friends. |
Immahnoob said: Isn't this Suicide assistance? ) No, more of suicide ignorance I guess. I didn't aid her suicide, I just ignored it. |
|
jal90 said: Would that be right? After all, she is going through the same or a very similar mental process... And the very first time she also knew, yet didn't take into account that she was loved by her family and friends. Right, she was exposed to the reality of the situation after the first attempt, it was made very clear to her how important she was in everyone's lives. So exposing her to it again would be pointless, as this time she had calculated the previous experience into her final decision to suicide. Edit* I should make another clarification that the second time, she was very clear headed about her decision (of course before getting drunk) |
sodabottleAug 18, 2012 5:55 AM
|
| Well, I've already had a relative who managed to "successfully" OD herself, so obviously my answer would be B. I do believe that suicide is a better option for some situations, and by that I mean outweighing the positives and negatives; for example, if you're bed-bound and slowly dying. I also thought that it was silly when people used selfishness as an argument, because their families too are in some way being selfish. But with that said, if you've known someone who has commit suicide, then any previous stances you had on it completely go out of the window and you WILL pick B. No one thinks rationally while dealing with depression, and thus their thoughts on how their family will be affected by this are always going to be skewed. Allowing someone to go through with suicide with this kind of distorted thought process is and always will be the wrong choice. |
obbsworld said: jal90 said: Would that be right? After all, she is going through the same or a very similar mental process... And the very first time she also knew, yet didn't take into account that she was loved by her family and friends. Right, she was exposed to the reality of the situation after the first attempt, it was made very clear to her how important she was in everyone's lives. So exposing her to it again would be pointless, as this time she had calculated the previous experience into her final decision to suicide. Well put. But I can't help but think that you are giving her an assumption of rationality, while the idea of suicide is caused by a strong emotional pressure; in that sense I think it wouldn't be at all strange that she simply wasn't taking these things into consideration. In any case, it's a difficult example and I'm speculating on something I don't really know about (never even had to get through a situation like this, neither in myself nor in relatives/close friends). |
Onibokusu said: Assisted suicide is illegal in some places. Hell, (attempted) suicide is illegal in some places. Except I don't expect a government department to charge an estate for suicide, although charging for attempted suicide seems 'reasonable' to governments. Karpman said: \True, but only in long-term cases, if one has to live with pain constantly, in that case I support something like suicide through means of euthanasia. A one term baseball bat to the face is better than death, but in this case pain nor agony seems to be the case, so I am hoping for more clarification on this. I can only think of irrationality for 'short-term' pain cases. I can assure you I'm quite sane when I consider my own suicide. However I can't say the same for many people. A psychologist isn't going to help a single bit for determining that, either. (Well, perhaps a bit, but in a fairly limited way) People who do suicide have, according to the age-old economic assumption of rationality, weighed Death as something less costly than life. It's a simple step backwards/forwards to deem that they would suffer long-term pain. Another interesting case to consider is that of a 'hopeless' case which some have declared impossible. I wonder if the people of this thread justify a friendless orphan to go suicide when times get tough.(and will continue getting tough unless an unknown 'uncle' just died and lets the orphan have a huge inheritance) This candidate fulfils the criteria of A: Tough days ahead. Ahead being deceptively known, although foreseeable future is bleak. B: Lack of 'people who care.' (Also interesting, http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=psc.001.0053a) |
 「みんながいるからだ。」 － 棗鈴 |
| So as for the clarification towards the main "hypothetical" situation, I've added everything to the main post, and I don't think I can clarify any further ahah. |
|
| But does that person really wants to kill herself? Not the usuall attention thing (if she is woman than it's more common than with guys) - than drinking is better option. With bit of luck, person is too drunk to do anything and next morning deals not with underworld but hangover. Plus contacting with her family/hospital... so they will help with dealing with her, even by force. |
obbsworld said: And also suicide general: how you feel about suicide, etc. It amazes me to see people in wealthy countries throw away their lives when people in 3rd world countries that are practically starving to death, seen all kinds of horrors and probably had all kinds of horrors happen them are hanging on to their lives and are trying to make the most out of their lives. Heck prison inmates in our own countries who are in prison for the rest of their lives and have to suffer abuse from other inmates hang onto their lives.We have people in this country with stage 4 cancer and are going through painful treatments in order to live. But some snot nosed little fucken punk living in one of the best and most wealthiest countries in the world feels that his life is shitty and somehow not worth living wants to off himself despite the fact there are billions of people on this planet a whole lot worse off. I picked option B but part of me wants to pay someone to beat that suicidal douche bag with in a inch of their life or drop them off in some 3rd world shit hole war torn country for a week to make them realize that there are people who are actually worse off than that suicidal douche bag. |
ezikialrage said: obbsworld said: And also suicide general: how you feel about suicide, etc. It amazes me to see people in wealthy countries throw away their lives when people in 3rd world countries that are practically starving to death, seen all kinds of horrors and probably had all kinds of horrors happen them are hanging on to their lives and are trying to make the most out of their lives. Heck prison inmates in our own countries who are in prison for the rest of their lives and have to suffer abuse from other inmates hang onto their lives.We have people in this country with stage 4 cancer and are going through painful treatments in order to live. But some snot nosed little fucken punk living in one of the best and most wealthiest countries in the world feels that his life is shitty and somehow not worth living wants to off himself despite the fact there are billions of people on this planet a whole lot worse off. I picked option B but part of me wants to pay someone to beat that suicidal douche bag with in a inch of their life or drop them off in some 3rd world shit hole war torn country for a week to make them realize that there are people who are actually worse off than that suicidal douche bag. I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely that uneducated and naive. I'd attempt to dumb an explanation down of how depression works, but considering your post, it'd be a waste of time. I've already concluded you as a lost cause. |
TrapaliciousAug 18, 2012 6:47 AM
| As far I know being depressed never been a permanent status.(death is) So it would not be selfish to get someone to the Hospital in case of depression. It's not easy to cure, but it just can't be defined as hopeless. So B would just be the cleverest thing to do 'not really the speech, but the action). It's even more obvious for adolescents, as depression often fall off latter in those cases if helped correctly. Also, in most case it an appeal to be helped. Someone who really want to die, well, he's dead before you can pay attention. And if drunk, the best is to calm the situation waiting to be sober to think clearly. For a incurable Patient who suffer and can't be healed (cancer, etc..) It's totally different indeed. |
HapaxAug 18, 2012 6:42 AM
 I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
LuckyStrike-Rx said: As far I know being depressed never been a permanent status.(death is) Yup, still it can feel like it's permanently depressed if you haven't get help. (From therapy, friends) And more it feels like permanent, if you stay like that until you suicide. |
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
Trapalicious said: ezikialrage said: obbsworld said: And also suicide general: how you feel about suicide, etc. It amazes me to see people in wealthy countries throw away their lives when people in 3rd world countries that are practically starving to death, seen all kinds of horrors and probably had all kinds of horrors happen them are hanging on to their lives and are trying to make the most out of their lives. Heck prison inmates in our own countries who are in prison for the rest of their lives and have to suffer abuse from other inmates hang onto their lives.We have people in this country with stage 4 cancer and are going through painful treatments in order to live. But some snot nosed little fucken punk living in one of the best and most wealthiest countries in the world feels that his life is shitty and somehow not worth living wants to off himself despite the fact there are billions of people on this planet a whole lot worse off. I picked option B but part of me wants to pay someone to beat that suicidal douche bag with in a inch of their life or drop them off in some 3rd world shit hole war torn country for a week to make them realize that there are people who are actually worse off than that suicidal douche bag. I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely that uneducated and naive. . I am not trolling nor am I uneducated or naive. I'd attempt to dumb an explanation down of how depression works, but considering your post, it'd be a waste of time. I've already concluded you as a lost cause. Depression is another one of those so called diseases that only people in mostly wealthy to well to do countries can get like obesity. http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110726/richer-countries-have-higher-depression-rates The World Health Organization estimates that depression affects 121 million people worldwide. In the 10 higher income countries surveyed, an average of nearly 15% of the population had suffered from depression at least once in their lives. By contrast, people living in low to middle income countries reported an 11% likelihood of having had the disease. At 19.2%, the U.S. had the second highest lifetime rate of depression. Only France, at 21%, had a greater frequency of the disease. Among the high-income countries, Japan, Germany, Italy, and Israel reported the smallest percentages, ranging from under 7% to 10%. Low to middle income countries, by contrast, reported much lower rates overall. China (6.5%) and Mexico (8%) had the smallest percentage of lifetime incidence of depression. Only Brazil, at 18.4%, approached the level of depression in the U.S. |
SergioSource said: I guess I'd try to pull a Welcome to the NHK suicide island on them, so B That's what has been working for me anyway Seriously, spoilers... Statthis said: That's only 3 of millions of people who didnt have it as easy as me and you. Yet we see perfectly healthy people throwing away their lives for reasons like their girlfriend dumbed them... If it was in my power to change something like a sucide,i would do everything,even if that means lock them in! I'm sorry, but isolated cases and numbers don't help prove your point on a moral or theoretic boolean yes/no situation. |
「みんながいるからだ。」 － 棗鈴 |
ezikialrage said: I am not trolling nor am I uneducated or naive. Depression is another one of those so called diseases that only people in mostly wealthy to well to do countries can get like obesity. http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110726/richer-countries-have-higher-depression-rates The World Health Organization estimates that depression affects 121 million people worldwide. In the 10 higher income countries surveyed, an average of nearly 15% of the population had suffered from depression at least once in their lives. By contrast, people living in low to middle income countries reported an 11% likelihood of having had the disease. At 19.2%, the U.S. had the second highest lifetime rate of depression. Only France, at 21%, had a greater frequency of the disease. Among the high-income countries, Japan, Germany, Italy, and Israel reported the smallest percentages, ranging from under 7% to 10%. Low to middle income countries, by contrast, reported much lower rates overall. China (6.5%) and Mexico (8%) had the smallest percentage of lifetime incidence of depression. Only Brazil, at 18.4%, approached the level of depression in the U.S. Moot point. Countries with lower rates of depression also happen to be much more closed on the case, or emotional support in general. Whereas countries with higher rates have more emotional support available. That's like claiming there's less homosexuals in the middle east simply because the statistics show a lower percentage. It's a complete disregard of what the root cause is. For example, your statistics show Japan and China has one of the lowest rates of depression, while it's a well known fact they both have one of the highest rates of suicide in the world. If you cannot connect the dots, then you truly are a lost cause. |
TrapaliciousAug 18, 2012 7:26 AM
Gaichi said: Yup, still it can feel like it's permanently depressed if you haven't get help. (From therapy, friends) And more it feels like permanent, if you stay like that until you suicide. Indeed, you just can't ask someone depressed to realise that, as he don't even have full control of his mind. That's why external help (preferably by medicine professional) is needed. Which also answer those who think suicide is stupid. Depressed don't have full control on their action. It's a disease. They don't really choose to die. It's just that they can't see anything else to get out of the situation. It has nothing to do as being selfish, weak or whatever. And it can virtually happen to anyone. Zmffkskem said: I'm sorry, but isolated cases and numbers don't help prove your point on a moral or theoretic boolean yes/no situation. It proves it's possible. I don't think handicap can be linked that much with suicide anyway |
HapaxAug 18, 2012 7:24 AM
I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
| I'd say A. By telling you that they want to kill themselves (together, not in any way), while everyone being drunk at that, shows how weak their resolve is. Of course, things can take a dramatic turn here, the alcohol making them more determined or something, but from what you've related, they won't bring themselves to die, unless they want to die by the others hands (double homicide); at least those are my personal thoughts. Remaining with the scar of wanting to die (after being at the barrier between life and death), they shouldn't want to do it again... I think? On another note, I think the best thing to do here would be to go with A and encourage them... that should push their thought process. |
Karpman said: Hmm, I am a bit sold on A now as well, because if the person really did think of her friends, family and others while doing this and not just "FUCK THE WORLD!!". In that case it is understandable, but seeing what I assume young people die is a bit sad. I mostly assume when young people attempt or think about suicide that they haven't thought this through, the one thing which is still bugging me is that person OP mentioned had a job, boyfriend and a somewhat good life, she wasn't isolated or abused, so I didn't see a real reason to commit suicide. Who cares if they were thinking about their family? Whether they are thinking about them or not, going through with it will still cause the same amount of pain for the survivors. Suicide is an incredibly selfish way of 'solving' one's problems. |
 |
| Suicide is an irrational choice made largely by people in irrational states of mind. Its not possible to really understand it unless you have been there |
| I have to believe that when things are bad I can change them |
Karpman said: So, just because other people want you to live, you must, it is your own life, you should be able to do with it what you want. If the family wanted her to live that was also a form of selfishness. Yup, it should be person himself/herself who is the one and decide what to do with own life. (Another thing is, can that person decide just huge thing alone... when not healed from trauma etc) |
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
| Suicide is a sin so i would pull out my bible. And smack him a few times with it. |
 |
Shuhan said: Suicide is a sin so i would pull out my bible. And smack him a few times with it. That will help her I'm sure. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: Shuhan said: Suicide is a sin so i would pull out my bible. And smack him a few times with it. That will help her I'm sure. Bible heals all wounds. |
|
Shuhan said: Suicide is a sin so i would pull out my bible. And smack him a few times with it. You are true and wrong. (True, Suicide is sin) Person is out of mind, can't think anything wise or at all... And most likely, if you smack person like that with bible... it doesn't bring any good <3 Most likely you will assist suicide. (To make it happen faster) If you not going to help, please leave person like that alone. Peoples with true goal of help person like that will help. |
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
| Well, reading the both A and B, and maybe it will be creel for some persons, but A is the better choice. Ok. I tried sometimes to stop my friend to be killed and I did all I can, so if (s(he wants to kill it his/her choice, so I will only say to that person: "Well, its your decision, I tried a lot of times to stop you, so I won't feel guilty if you kill yourself. Just think about your family and all the persons that loves you: How will they feel only because of your dead. They will feel unhappy." |
Karpman said: who are you to stop it? Well, who aren't you to stop it? Who you would be is someone who cares, however. Like I said before in this thread, there's not a single person who has had actual experience with this which would allow someone else to take their own life. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply lying to themselves. Of course, it all completely depends on the situation and what caused them to get to that stage, but for a majority of cases the only rational thing would be to help. |
Gaichi said: Shuhan said: Suicide is a sin so i would pull out my bible. And smack him a few times with it. You are true and wrong. (True, Suicide is sin) Person is out of mind, can't think anything wise or at all... And most likely, if you smack person like that with bible... it doesn't bring any good <3 Most likely you will assist suicide. (To make it happen faster) If you not going to help, please leave person like that alone. Peoples with true goal of help person like that will help. I was just being a bit over dramatic with the smacking part, but in all seriousness i would definitely step in. Karpman said: With the power of religion we shall prevail..: wot is this lol |
|
| Religion. No mercy. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Karpman said: Really? It is their own life, and which special someone, I am assuming we are still taking OP's post as example here, so this person already talked to people had medicines for a long time and talked with other professionals, if all of them can't do anything about the urge of suicide and she still wants to go through with it, who are you to stop it? You are someone that can still be rational. Going trough this can takes years. It can be more than 10 years depending on the person. Of course medical assistance is never perfect, but the fact it helped at some point prove it's not useless. Also relapse is really frequent in all mental disease, and physician most likely fail at his job in that case. Depression is indeed not totally curable, but with descent help, you can live a relatively enjoyable life. (as enjoyable as everyone indeed) I won't go in detail, but I know this well enough. Also Religion on neurosis == Bad Idea (most of the time) |
I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
Statthis said: Immahnoob said: Religion. No mercy. Lol here's another 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CDppjS3LQc I know that one. I've also watched the Angry Video Game Nerd. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Trapalicious said: Like I said before in this thread, there's not a single person who has had actual experience with this which would allow someone else to take their own life. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply lying to themselves. Yeah, I've dealt with it too so that's why I feel this way. After experiencing the aftermath firsthand, there's no way I could pick A. And for anyone who thinks the friends and family are selfish for trying to stop them, just be glad it's not you in that situation. |
NarmyAug 18, 2012 8:48 AM
|
| why did you make everyone drunk tho that makes it hard to come with up with any kind of counterfactual answer (not that its easy in the first place) chose A-why should you choose what others do with their life suicide isn't selfish suicide isn't a sin you shouldn't have to have me tell you why these things are true |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
| Suicide thoughts or plan are usually not permanent but can come back again when a person is low. It's good to stop and must ask professional to help as it's clearly a crisis. Their current therapy may not be enough, or they actually have a change in their surroundings that is not dealt with. If you are close enough, try to make sure they take the medication too. They are not a cure but would reduce the risk of worse mood. Depressive views of the world is usually more negative than reality. But it's not always that dramatic so it can confuse close friends who spend a lot time near them. Be aware and don't give up. |
More topics from this board
» You guys watch anime on a laptop, tv or projector?Rivermind - Oct 17 |
46 |
by Onaniu
»»
16 minutes ago |
|
» Why did you choose your forum avatar and profile picture?Ejrodiew - 2 hours ago |
14 |
by fleurbleue
»»
26 minutes ago |
|
» What is needed for you to stop being a degenerate?Telecom - Yesterday |
29 |
by mshfqtny
»»
37 minutes ago |
|
» Would you own a sphynx cat?WaffleMaster89 - Oct 17 |
13 |
by KittenCuddler
»»
41 minutes ago |
|
» how do you like your burgertsukareru - 5 hours ago |
16 |
by mshfqtny
»»
42 minutes ago |