| Originally by Warren S. Quinn (1989). Simple formulation here by Michael Huemer: You have been fitted with an unobtrusive torture device, which will be attached to you for the rest of your life. It has a thousand and one settings, labeled from 0 up to 1,000. At setting 0, the device is off, so you feel no suffering caused by the device. At setting 1, the device applies a very slight electric current to the pain center in your brain. It is so slight that you wouldn’t even notice it. At setting 2, it applies a very slightly higher electric current. And so on. For any setting n, the setting n+1 applies a very slightly higher current than n, with the increase being so small that you cannot introspectively tell the difference between being at setting n and being at n+1. However, by the time you get up to setting 1,000, you are in severe pain. Imagine that you are offered a series of choices over the next thousand days: at the beginning of each day, you may either turn the dial up by one, or leave the device alone. If you turn it up by one, you will be given $10,000. You can never turn the dial down (not even if you give back the money!). Should you turn the dial up on day one? If so, from the vantage point of you at day 1, seeing as the difference between setting 1 and 2 is just as tiny as 0 and 1, and the reward is the same, should you turn it up at day two? Likewise the same rationale for day 3, 4, 5, etc. If you will turn it to 1, what is the way to gauge the optimal stopping point, seeing as the same argument of n to n+1 can be made at each of the step, and it appears you will end up at excruciating pain with $10,000,000 if you follow the reasoning to its conclusion. How do you solve the problem? |
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Reply to deg
no pain no gain but too much pain is bad i guess i will stop dialing up between 50 to 100
| @deg One tricky part of the problem is that, at day 100, you will still be given $10,000 for an increase so small you can't even tell the difference between 100 and 101. You are given the same problem you did on day 1, since for every pair of n and n+1, it is small enough that we can't introspectively tell the difference. |
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| 1. I turn it up by 1 each day, until the pain becomes too uncomfortable. 2. Once I get used to the pain level, I continue with point 1 |
No, this isn't my signature. |
Reply to Zarutaku
1. I turn it up by 1 each day, until the pain becomes too uncomfortable.
2. Once I get used to the pain level, I continue with point 1
2. Once I get used to the pain level, I continue with point 1
| @Zarutaku The seeming intractability of the problem appears to me as, at each step, the next step is so subtle compared to the current that it will always make sense to advance from a rational choice theory sense, and paradoxically arrive at a setting the person would not have preferred compared to setting 0. It seems to break transitivity in the sense of: Q0<Q1<Q2<Q3<...Q1000 < Q0 Q0 cannot be less than something that is less than something... that is less than Q0. Therefore the inequality must have been wrong, so there exists a pair n and n+1 at which it is worse to turn it up, but not obvious which pair. |
AuronMay 19, 10:46 AM
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| If I don't notice any noteworthy difference after turning it up, then I keep turning it up. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
| I think if there are no negative effects from increasing the current every day, then it is possibly logical to do it. But how can one be sure there are no ill effects? Increasing the setting by 1 every day is different from increasing it all at once. Because this allows the organism to acclimatize to the pain. |
| this is a variation of the heap problem, right? there's some imprecisely defined value R (let's call it that for "Resistance") where the amount of money gained becomes worth less than the amount of pain to be endured. the fact that R can not be precisely defined, and is more expressible as a range of ratios is where the issues comes in. i think that if you took a graph of pain-as-x-axis, and resistance-as-y-axis, you'd probably see some kind of exponential curve where at some point R would increase much faster than either the relative values of pain or money. |
Reply to Zarutaku
If I don't notice any noteworthy difference after turning it up, then I keep turning it up.
| @Zarutaku variation of the problem - you wouldn't notice any difference if you cut a single strand of hair off - so does this mean that you'd notice no difference if you proceeded to keep doing this until you were completely bald? it's probably difficult to *precisely* define an amount of hairs cut where you'd start to notice, but that doesn't imply that you'd never notice that you were becoming bald |
Reply to fbjim
@Zarutaku variation of the problem - you wouldn't notice any difference if you cut a single strand of hair off - so does this mean that you'd notice no difference if you proceeded to keep doing this until you were completely bald?
it's probably difficult to *precisely* define an amount of hairs cut where you'd start to notice, but that doesn't imply that you'd never notice that you were becoming bald
it's probably difficult to *precisely* define an amount of hairs cut where you'd start to notice, but that doesn't imply that you'd never notice that you were becoming bald
| @fbjim I didn't imply that I wouldn't notice the pain, I was just talking about noticing a difference. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
Zarutaku said: 1. I turn it up by 1 each day, until the pain becomes too uncomfortable. Note: "too uncomfortable" is when I can almost no longer sleep enough because of the pain. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
| I would turn it up to like 10 or 15 and buy some nice flat in Prague, rent it, and wouldnt touch it again.... |
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Reply to fbjim
this is a variation of the heap problem, right? there's some imprecisely defined value R (let's call it that for "Resistance") where the amount of money gained becomes worth less than the amount of pain to be endured. the fact that R can not be precisely defined, and is more expressible as a range of ratios is where the issues comes in.
i think that if you took a graph of pain-as-x-axis, and resistance-as-y-axis, you'd probably see some kind of exponential curve where at some point R would increase much faster than either the relative values of pain or money.
i think that if you took a graph of pain-as-x-axis, and resistance-as-y-axis, you'd probably see some kind of exponential curve where at some point R would increase much faster than either the relative values of pain or money.
| @fbjim Yes, it is a variation of the heap problem! I think you're on a really good path with the graph, and of course according to marginal utility of a dollar, every next $10,000 has less subjective value than the one before, whereas Δpain is same in each turning point, so it feels very plausible that there will be a crossover.  I think a really compelling part of his proposed solution was this: Seeing as we think that going up all the way to 1000 is net bad, it must mean that harm of 0 to 1000 must be larger than the net utility of 0 to $10M. Visual way to think about it is, from 0 to 1000, area under the pain curve must be greater than the area under the utility curve. And for that to happen, curves must intersect and utility curve go below at some point. And that point is the optimal stopping point. Even if it feels unintuitive and the Δpain introspectively cannot be distinguished from the current step, there is a point where we must decline to turn it up. |
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| I think I looked at a problem sorta similar to this in a behavior economics class I took a few years back, but I don't recall the details or if any rational answer came of it. I'll have to dig through my notebooks later. For now, given the presentation of the problem, my thought is to flip the dial to 1 and then never touch it again unless an emergency arose where I needed lots of money. This problem has the same fundamental issue as the famous boiled frog thought experiment where one is asked: If you put a frog in a pot of water on a stove and you heat up the water slowly enough, will the frog not notice the temperature changes and eventually end up in boiling water? From my own personal experience*, the answer is no, and by extension the idea that the pain difference between setting n and n+1 will always be "so small that you cannot introspectively tell the difference" is simply false. At some point you will not notice anything at dial = n and after increasing the dial to n+1 you will feel something, which contradicts the rules of this theoretical torture device. I assume (perhaps foolishly) that this won't occur jumping from n=0 to n=1, hence I'm willing to flip the dial once. For what it's worth, the $10k also causes some issues with the paradox. Money has diminishing value, so the first $10k is worth more than the second $10k which is worth more than the third $10k... which is worth more than the final $10k. Even if the increase in pain is negligible, the increase in wealth also becomes increasingly negligible as n increases. I'd be curious to read that book, but it's not at my library and it's wayyyy to expensive (and I'm not buying anything on Amazon either). I know the Pop Quiz paradox was brought up in one my classes briefly, but I don't think it was a serious in depth look at it. * I did not attempt to boil a frog (I ain't no witch), but I start boiling myself every day in summer. The temperature starts out fine in my apartment most days, and increases slowly as the sun rises. Despite the increase in temperature being slow and steady, eventually I start sweating - a perceptible change to an imperceptible increase in temperature. At that point (about 77F) the A/C goes on. |
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| i would put an infinite punishment on myself if i go from a specific arbitrary tolerable point to another to avoid slippery sloping into the 1000, kind of like how you delude yourself into stop consuming drugs ** good luck modelling the reward function of this thought problem nerds |
Gween_GweenMay 19, 11:32 AM
| Quantify the situation. For any $10,000*n total reward at some step n, you will have some minimum payment where you're willing to accept the pain for the payment. The shape of the willingness to acceptance for $Y vs step n will be concave up and increasing to represent diminishing marginal utility while the monetary reward is linear. Given these conditions the curves will intersect (at least in the continuous case.) At this point you should be indifferent. Going past this point the deal will no longer be worth it. That's the neat theoretical situation. In actuality though I really hate being in pain, and I can't do any take backsies in this risky game, so I'd actually never turn the dial. I'm fine not always trying to optimize! |
FreshellMay 19, 11:40 AM
| Wait, I just increase it every day and start using sustainable pain killers once the pain becomes too much. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
Reply to Gween_Gween
i would put an infinite punishment on myself if i go from a specific arbitrary tolerable point to another to avoid slippery sloping into the 1000, kind of like how you delude yourself into stop consuming drugs
** good luck modelling the reward function of this thought problem nerds
** good luck modelling the reward function of this thought problem nerds
| @Gween_Gween Interestingly the author mentions that there are similar analogues of this situation to real life, like how every piece of chip affects your waistline so little that it is indistinguishable from before you ate that particular chip, but if you then use this logic every time you get fat. So seems like we are to some degree capable of doing satisficing without optimizing, setting an arbitrary acceptability threshold beyond which we will not go even if it won't be optimal, perhaps with that penalizes overshooting more than undershooting. But a pre-commitment with infinite penalty for breaking seems the guaranteed way, like maybe if you go beyond step n, your entire bank account will automatically be donated and any subsequent offer called out or something. To the extent this is allowed to do in this experiment lol |
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| another interesting implication is to ask if there's a curve where the amount of money gained rises, where the resistance to increasing the dial does remain constant. for example, if the money increased by Nx = 1000x + 1000x-1... + 1000, how would that change things? |
fbjimMay 19, 11:54 AM
| I need money to buy toys and manga so I can cope better with my excruciatingly lackluster life, so I'll put up with the pain and get the money I'm already kind of a masochist anyway. but I'll probably give up at setting 50 for a while. |
| Considering that there seems to be enough information to understand how things work, I'll just come up with a threshold that makes the most sense to me, without going too far, get enough money for a modest comfortable life and then use the money I got to prepare for the time when I’ll no longer have them :) whether it's investment, relevant education or something else that will work in practice. No device touching for me anymore :p not exactly a universal method of problem solving, but that's the kind of solution that would probably work for me. That said, touching creepy pain-inducing devices for money doesn’t seem too rational in the first place lol regardless of the rewards promised. It’d be a lot more “fun” and difficult if it was some ethical dilemma. If me turning up the dial would slowly alleviate someone’s excruciating pain, how far would I be willing to go to relieve their pain? And how much burden would I be willing to take on myself for their sake, without really being able to measure the changes properly? |
| 0 because it's not worth imho to risk even the tinniest bit of electricity to potentially mess with my inner organs: https://burncenters.com/safety/the-short-term-and-long-term-effects-of-electric-shock-on-the-human-body/ |
| When it comes to working out I would say I'm kind of a glutton for punishment. I always like pushing myself just to see how much more further I can go. Life in general too. |
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Reply to Retro8bit
When it comes to working out I would say I'm kind of a glutton for punishment. I always like pushing myself just to see how much more further I can go. Life in general too.
| @Retro8bit Do you want to punish yourself financially and send me ur dough? |
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| Incremental increases in pain aren't noticeable until one day they are, and it can be tough to remember life before it. Not being able to go back isn't worth it, I'd rather live a humble life free of pain. KittenCuddler said: Do you want to punish yourself financially and send me ur dough? Careful, you're going to get findom PMs. |
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Reply to KittenCuddler
@Retro8bit Do you want to punish yourself financially and send me ur dough?
| @KittenCuddler So long as you don't mind that dough being pizza dough. >.> |
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Reply to Commit_Crime
I would turn it up to like 10 or 15 and buy some nice flat in Prague, rent it, and wouldnt touch it again....
| @Commit_Crime man you're so lucky. I wish I was there in Czech Republic and go to the OWK |
| This torture device just sounds like my mind itself. Tolerating something short term doesn't compare to long term suffering. You can handle it a while but it can wear on you over time till you can't take any more. There is only so much pleasure you can feel and unless you are a big masochist that is hindered by constant pain. It is best not to turn it up at all because the reward is temporary for something permanent but if it is turned up it should not be done every day it needs to be always a waiting period between turns and each turn should require a longer waiting period. |
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Reply to Retro8bit
| @Retro8bit No, I meant dough as in cold, hard cash. CC said: Careful, you're going to get findom PMs. I'll happy trade PMs for some moolah! |
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| The question caught me off guard, tbh. On one hand, I wouldn't inflict pain on myself just for money. On the other hand, I'm too curious not to try turning the dial - just to see what happens, haha. Honestly, the real torture for me might be living with a device like that and never trying it. |
| Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
| I think this is missing a very important point.Obviously it is discarding any sort of pain you are/can feel before/during those 1000 days.That in itself is the trap imo. If I had such a device of me irl,won't lie i'd turn the dial at least 50-100,and as others have kind of pointed out here is the problem.You are in constant pain,"negliglible" is say getting a 20 min headache,but with this it is permanent.Let's say you endure it for 50 days and have increased it everyday-you are at a precipice since you are in constant pain and cant revert it to 0 then the only logical conclusion is to keep dialing it up since the whole thing would feel meaningless to endure it while not getting something in return. It's pretty much life but with good pay. |
| Can I Still Go To Heaven If I Kill Myself? |
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