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Should the Law Be Used to Enforce Morality?
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05-30-12, 7:25 PM

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one-more-time said:
Post-Josh said:
No risk, no reward, my friend.

A one-liner as answer? Sweet.


I have nothing left to say to you on this, is all.
 
05-30-12, 7:33 PM

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Post-Josh said:
No risk, no reward, my friend.

Lets risk giving somebody else Elephant man disease, Autism, 18 years of retardation, horrific medical procedures, lets risk all that just so we can justify our existence.

When does life gets stupid and ludacris enough for you to say "This is pretty stupid". It certainly seemed stupid enough for me at a young age to be quite certain that I'm not going to reproduce, I'm not going to throw any victims on this planet.
These little illustrations in my life, which made crystal clear, I'm not saying that these are things that convince you, but they just make it clear, vivid images of the first cat that I got stuck with and how it died, I'll never get those images out of my head, I can't calculate any value that I would trade, if I had the power to change how the animal died, I can't think of some positive thing, some Lamborgini-type possession that I could put as a value and say "That is what they was worth". Right there my math is already finished, it's blown up over a stupid cat. How can you people just look at this slop, to see what happens to people, to see what happens to animals every day in the wild,
and say "It's all okay, my standards are too high", how low will you go? How bad it has to get?
There's no horror that human beings will not endure, because they are so possessed, what you sort of can see in a competition sports, you'll see what people resort to, what people do, they're so driven, we used to have blood-sports, that is ho much it meant to people to play this ego game, this "triumph over" game, and for some people it's all about - "I'm going to win, life is not going to beat me". It's just en Ego trip.

With what kind of confidence, well some people will coincide "Well yea, this looks a little bit messy, BUT" and the BUT always comes up like "human beings do do some interesting stuff". The most everything, if you look at what they're doing, is to do with some sort of drama or entertainment or something that's feeding that ego, the part of us that lives by carelessly through stories.

For people not to coincide this desire factor, addiction thing, the fact that we are compelled down to our toes, so to speak, to play, to want to need, to feel like we are not hole, the only way we be can hole is through this "medium", this living thing but not to recognize that it never works out none wins the "game of life", they all end up gone, the end, that's it, and for what? How many times you have to do it? What's the accomplishment? A million human beings, a billion human beings, a trillion human beings? Just seems that here is no perspective at all, the number that finally will be, ill be an arbitrary number if somedys going to make a rational argument that somehow universe is diminished because it was just 10 zillion human beings that ever lived, 20 zillion would've been better?

C'mon, it's just an experience, you're caught up in it and addicted to it, there is just no need to impose addiction to somebody else, there is no need to throw somebody else through that door in-to that really messy place.
I mean, if life was well constructed, our consciousness had great adventures, then you could make an argument that there is no harm, but that is not a reality, not even close to reality we can create and part of the whole mechanism what makes us want is that deprivation, that feel that we are unfinished, undone, we are in a need of something, something HERE while you're alive, not dead. Just understand that is just a mechanism in our head, this mechanism isn't much different for heroin addict, just recognize that, quit pretending that this is worth the trouble, worth the risk, especially the risk.
The imposition, throwing somebody in-to it, creating them and putting them in there, being God, giving them not Garden of Eden but a sloppy, shitty world to live in.
I have to make the accusation again, apparently most human breeders are more malicious than God, at least God started off with a Garden of Eden, he had the sense to create the paradise for man kind, he didn't create human beings in-to a shit and that is what you're doing. You're playing God and putting your creation in shit, kind of makes you an asshole.

@Baman, Nihilists value nothing. Antinatalists value suffering. I'm not a Nihilist, can you stop with your ignorance already?
"Living is what scares me. Dying is easy."
-Charles Manson

 
05-30-12, 7:47 PM

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I'm glad you got that out of your system, now kindly shut the fuck up.
 
05-30-12, 7:48 PM

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one-more-time said:
@Baman, Nihilists value nothing. Antinatalists value suffering. I'm not a Nihilist, can you stop with your ignorance already?
Uh, nope.
Moral nihilism states that morality is a human construct. Whether or not they themselves still hold any values while knowing this is a individual choice. I am one and I still have my moral preferences even though I do in no way regard them as rigid guidelines, and would throw them away without a second thought if needed to. And just being a "nihilist" does not necessarily include moral nihilism either.
So if we're ignorant from drawing a logical conclusion (Since indeed, you are a existential nihilist, as you yourself so clearly have expressed), then you are doubly so for not knowing that nihilism is a multifaceted term.
Eigi man ek þá lǫg jómsvikinga ef ek kviði við bana eða mæla ek æðruorð. Eitt sinn skal hverr deyja
 
05-30-12, 7:58 PM

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Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. <wiki>

Antinatalists value suffering.

Or you have not faced any antinatalists before?

Calling me Nihilist enough times will not make me such.
Modified by one-more-time, 05-30-12, 8:17 PM
"Living is what scares me. Dying is easy."
-Charles Manson

 
05-30-12, 8:25 PM

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Your whole argument is about how it's bad to put people into existence because existence entails suffering right? Thus, you are saying life has no meaning and has no value in face of suffering. So existential nihilism is clearly included.
Eigi man ek þá lǫg jómsvikinga ef ek kviði við bana eða mæla ek æðruorð. Eitt sinn skal hverr deyja
 
05-30-12, 8:29 PM

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Kaiserpingvin said:
Monad said:
Is not a moral necessity. It's pretty much a living necessity. No one will have even the slightness of decent life in a crazy world where everyone is a beast and you have to sleep with one eye open.
Hell our species as a whole might have died because the only reason we are more powerful than wild animals is because we form rules and groups that lead to a society structure that allows to support each other.
Even if we didn't became food we might as well have turned back into monkeys since our brain will be useless in a chaos environment where knowledge can find piece to be implemented.
'
So? Even granting something as ridiculous as the lack of laws would lead to total extinction, to hold the perpetuation of our species as a good thing is a moral fucking claim.

How hard is this to get?


Who said anything about holding our species as a good thing? It's not about being good or bad is because existence is everything so even if it's bad it changes nothing in our attempt to keep it.
 
05-30-12, 8:40 PM

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Baman said:
Your whole argument is about how it's bad to put people into existence because existence entails suffering right? Thus, you are saying life has no meaning and has no value in face of suffering. So existential nihilism is clearly included.

Nihilists believe everything is awash and that nothing should be done about the suffering of others. You can tip-toe around how many times you want, interpret how you please, antinatalists are not nihilists. If you call me such - I don't care, you're wrong, that's it.

Buddhism is often mistakenly classified as nihilistic or existentialist too.
"Living is what scares me. Dying is easy."
-Charles Manson

 
05-30-12, 8:47 PM

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one-more-time said:
Nihilists believe everything is awash and that nothing should be done about the suffering of others. You can tip-toe around how many times you want, interpret how you please, antinatalists are not nihilists. If you call me such - I don't care, you're wrong, that's it.

Buddhism is often mistakenly classified as nihilistic or existentialist too.
Lol, again, what "nihilists" are you talking about here? "nihilism" is a colloquial term describing philosophical viewpoints that disregard one or more forms of "meaning" in life, whether it be meaning of morals, life itself or even epistemological nihilism. Clearly you have a completely wrong idea of what nihilism is.

And with Buddhism, it is a mistake because it focus on self denial and entropy as a means to an end, with important value to both life and morality still being very much in place in terms of attaining Nirvana.
So the question is simple, do you think the world has intrinsic value and meaning? If not, then you are a existential nihilist, no matter what other things you might also be. And if you claim I'm wrong, you're also refusing the definition of the words we're using, so then you'd probably be kind of a epistemological nihilist as well, really.
Eigi man ek þá lǫg jómsvikinga ef ek kviði við bana eða mæla ek æðruorð. Eitt sinn skal hverr deyja
 
05-30-12, 9:06 PM

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@one-more-time

Banatar said "That harm is not negligible, because the quality of even the best lives is very bad-and considerably worse than most people recognise it to be."

Do you not see something wrong with that statement? What objective criteria was used to grade human lives? What objective criteria is used to determine what is painful or what is suffering? Most often in my own life pain/suffering is merely a feedback loop that informs me something is wrong. Of course if one is suffering more than they think they are, does it even matter?

Even assuming it does, why should I mind having children, if they, like me can successfully delude themselves into thinking their life is ok? At any rate, the conclusion I come to is that he has a very crude and simple definition of pleasure and pain which oversimplifies things leaving a lot to be desired, among other things I found flawed, but I have a feeling we won't reach middle ground here so I'll conclude there.

This topic certainly derailed though, interesting progression that I can't say I saw coming. *shrugs*

 
05-30-12, 9:22 PM

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Baman said:
one-more-time said:
@Baman, Nihilists value nothing. Antinatalists value suffering. I'm not a Nihilist, can you stop with your ignorance already?
Uh, nope.
Moral nihilism states that morality is a human construct. Whether or not they themselves still hold any values while knowing this is a individual choice. I am one and I still have my moral preferences even though I do in no way regard them as rigid guidelines, and would throw them away without a second thought if needed to. And just being a "nihilist" does not necessarily include moral nihilism either.
So if we're ignorant from drawing a logical conclusion (Since indeed, you are a existential nihilist, as you yourself so clearly have expressed), then you are doubly so for not knowing that nihilism is a multifaceted term.

Moral Nihilism, Existential Nihilism... Now where have I heard these terms. Oh, right, the first paragraph of Nihilism on Wikipedia "-_- I think this is the point where labelling becomes over-ridiculous. On top of that, labelling someone you consider an existentialist... lol, Baman, that's kind of offensive. Nihilism is simply the rejection of intrinsic value, in one way or another. I don't think we need to label every little core intricacy that follows it. Anyway, "existential nihilism" is a useless term, since anti-foundationalism covers that philosophical area.
 
05-30-12, 9:28 PM

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@Baman

Antinatalism is philosophical position that does come out of Nihilism, that is why there is lots of similarities- the life is a futile game. That comes out of Nihilism.

Antinatalism also comes out of religion. This is something that isn't talked about much, but if you look at Buddhism, Hinduism, Non-duality, agnosticism(tho it's a bit different).
If we look at the definition of Antinatalism, they all attribute negative value towards birth, they all see consciousness as being harmful, they all see life as suffering, as soon there is self-awareness.
Nihilism states that everything is futile and no course of action does not change anything whatsoever, everything is meaningless. When it comes to this subject I'm an activist, to be activist you need passion, it needs to be against indifference, thet state that Nihilism brings is indifference, because its acknowledgement of meaninglessness of everything being meaningless.
In order to be activist you cannot be thinking that everything is meaningless, otherwise you would not have a cause to be an activist for. I'm against Nihilism.

Even tho Antinatalism comes out of Nihilism thought, religion. Antinatalism has been turned into activism, by some people, into optimism, retains the hope of the possibility of being able to end all sentient life on earth, or life as a whole. You need a hope in order to be activist, what ever kind of activist you are. That gives a passion, a meaning, for these reasons I'm not a Nihilist, I'm not a skeptic, I'm sure about my self in may ways, Nihilist doubts everything.
You can be Antinatalist and you can be Antinatalist activist, you can be both - Nihilist and Antinatalist.

But I'd go so far that calling yourself Antinatalist without having activist attitude is like calling yourself non-rapist.

If you look at the Albert Camus book "the Stranger", you can see what a Nihilist would look like. Or movie "The Man Who Sleep"/"Un Homme Qui Dort".

I've had enough of "You are a Nihilist" for past years, lets not go there. I know who I am better than you do.

@rekindleflame, take a look at Benatars book "Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence".

Anyways, I'm off for a sleep.
Modified by one-more-time, 05-30-12, 9:40 PM
"Living is what scares me. Dying is easy."
-Charles Manson

 
05-30-12, 9:51 PM

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Sleep is meaningless though imo.
 
05-30-12, 9:55 PM

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In the cases where the 'lack of morality' harms other people or takes away their freedoms, yes the law should be involved. E.g. Murder, cannibalism, rape etc

In the cases where the 'lack of morality' does not harm other people or take away their freedoms, no the law should not be involved. E.g. Gay relationships, prostitution (but lets also make them pay taxes like the rest of us), and pornography.
 
05-30-12, 10:01 PM

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one-more-time said:

If you look at the Albert Camus book "the Stranger", you can see what a Nihilist would look like. Or movie "The Man Who Sleep"/"Un Homme Qui Dort".


Wa-wa-wait a minute! The Stranger is not a nihilistic book! Meursault goes through most of the book indifferent (indifference ≠ nihilism), with him embracing life with happiness and acceptance at the end. How the fuck is that nihilism? That's existentialism!

I have to agree with Baman, buddy. I don't think you know what Nihilism is. Try Turgenev and Nietzsche for more depth.
 
05-30-12, 10:07 PM

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I have never read The Stranger, but if that's true, lol.
 
05-30-12, 10:12 PM

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Post-Josh said:
I have never read The Stranger, but if that's true, lol.

Are you implying that what I said might not be true? I am not a liar, Josh.
 
05-30-12, 11:11 PM

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lucjan said:
one-more-time said:

If you look at the Albert Camus book "the Stranger", you can see what a Nihilist would look like. Or movie "The Man Who Sleep"/"Un Homme Qui Dort".


Wa-wa-wait a minute! The Stranger is not a nihilistic book! Meursault goes through most of the book indifferent (indifference ≠ nihilism), with him embracing life with happiness and acceptance at the end. How the fuck is that nihilism? That's existentialism!

I have to agree with Baman, buddy. I don't think you know what Nihilism is. Try Turgenev and Nietzsche for more depth.


Interesting, I would have actually agreed with one-more-time here, that Meursault was nihilistic finally "embracing" absurdism in prison. I found it to be very similar to one of Camus's other works The Myth of Sisyphus. Although Meursault certainly displays traits from nihilism, existentialism, and hedonism, so I suppose one could make the case either way.

 
05-30-12, 11:14 PM

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rekindledflame said:
lucjan said:
one-more-time said:

If you look at the Albert Camus book "the Stranger", you can see what a Nihilist would look like. Or movie "The Man Who Sleep"/"Un Homme Qui Dort".


Wa-wa-wait a minute! The Stranger is not a nihilistic book! Meursault goes through most of the book indifferent (indifference ≠ nihilism), with him embracing life with happiness and acceptance at the end. How the fuck is that nihilism? That's existentialism!

I have to agree with Baman, buddy. I don't think you know what Nihilism is. Try Turgenev and Nietzsche for more depth.


Interesting, I would have actually agreed with one-more-time here, that Meursault was nihilistic finally "embracing" absurdism in prison. I found it to be very similar to one of Camus's other works The Myth of Sisyphus. Although Meursault certainly displays traits from nihilism, existentialism, and hedonism, so I suppose one could make the case either way.

Absurdism isn't Nihilism.
 
05-30-12, 11:51 PM

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The conversation has taken an extremely satisfying turn

Also I apologize for calling OMT scum

I still think Asexuals are scum though so I dunno if my apology holds water? Who cares let's wrap this bad boy up with some existential literary recommendations

Anyone ever read Nausea? Do not spoil it for me I bought it in hopes that it would be better than L’Étranger (though I do enjoy Camus's writing in The Fall [the descriptive/narrative bits] and Myth of Sisyphuck)
 
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