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Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 1 Discussion
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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 1 Discussion
5 out of 5: Loved it!
 
466 86.46%
4 out of 5: Liked it
 
47 8.72%
3 out of 5: It was OK
 
19 3.53%
2 out of 5: Disliked it
 
1 0.19%
1 out of 5: Hated it
 
6 1.11%
Voters: 539

05-24-14, 4:27 AM

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Fai said:


Its canon that he did not know though.


I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow.
 
05-24-14, 5:28 AM

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HeisenDurden said:
Fai said:


Its canon that he did not know though.


I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow.

Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage. It's expected that they look for one, and Zouken's request is completely understandable from Tokiomi's point of view.
Also Zouken NEEDS Sakura to become a strong mage, even if Tokiomi finds him untrustworthy he still expects Zouken to make full use of Sakura's potential, which is also exactly what Tokiomi wants.
 
05-24-14, 6:19 AM

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Botato said:
HeisenDurden said:
Fai said:


Its canon that he did not know though.


I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow.

Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage.


I forgot about that, you're right.
I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but given how everyone refers to Zouken as a vampire/rotten old man with a shady past, I just still find Tokiomi's decision retarded.
 
05-24-14, 6:29 AM

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ssjokg said:
There are two big factions that everyone fears, the MA and the Church. And they need a reason to act.

Everyone else would try some nasty shit either way whether Sakura was with the Matou or Tohsaka. It would be the job of her guardians to protect her if they even wanted to.
The really bad MA you keep talking about wouldnt do anything to help them seriously.

Correction.
Three factions.

Church
Dead Apostles
Clocktower

That's not counting the wildcard like rogue magi, rogue DAs, phantasmal beasts, counterforce, inside factions in the above factions(Altrouge's clique in DA's having their own plans beyond DA fascination with Dark Six, the factions of Clocktower, etc) or the true hidden factions, let's not forget the "Freelancer figures" too like Arcueid, who give no fucks to power balance of the world.

Tokiomi knew that the ONLY way to get association to help them if problem occurs is to incur on their heritage and name. We are talking about the family who converted to christianity just to not get fucked over by church - selling your child to another family to ensure their survival is right within bounds of their actions.

The difference that separates Tohsaka family from monsters like Matous or Einzberns is self-awareness - they do not just set off to change laws of universe - they know what size they actually are and just how easily forces can crush them. Out of Three Great Families, Tohsaka family is the only one with actual somewhat "human perspective" in themselves.

Its why Zelretch sees Rin as worthy - he sees a chance that unlike Zouken or Einzebern family members, even when discovering such power that Rin did, Rin still would be herself. That's what intrigues him and amuses him. To see how far someone like that - someone who has both talent AND humanity, can go.





Then she isnt safe because of her status. They just wait for her to do some "mistake"


She is Safe-er. Note that WHO she is still ends up saving her. If not for her legacy and her name, she would be in a jar.


HeisenDurden said:
Botato said:
HeisenDurden said:
Fai said:


Its canon that he did not know though.


I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow.

Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage.


I forgot about that, you're right.
I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but given how everyone refers to Zouken as a vampire/rotten old man with a shady past, I just still find Tokiomi's decision retarded.


Because it is still the only real choice Tokiomi has.

If he knew the truth he would look for alternatives because they would not seem worse then.
 
05-24-14, 7:09 AM

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The Dead Apostles and anything that isnt a part of the Church or Association doesnt matter. We are talking about the Church or the Association taking someone by force.
The factions of the Clocktower are still part of the MA and even if they act in secret, it just means that the status of a monkey isnt something that will stop them.

Tokiomi could have chose ANOTHER family. NOT an infamous magus just because the guy(Zouken) was desperate. If the survival is just so they can reach goals and having reputation and not actually have a life then it isnt any different from what the MA would do. And if he cared that much, the least he could have done is check on her. There was no logical reason to make a deal of "having no business with her" after she is taken.


The Tohsaka name has nothing to do with Rin having humanity.


Just like the fact that in the end, having a name and inheritance does not protect them at all, if things are as you say they are, and we have the demon hunting families, one of them having at least one person being able to wound a Servant like monster, to prove that it ISNT like you say.
 
05-24-14, 7:56 AM

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ssjokg said:
The Dead Apostles and anything that isnt a part of the Church or Association doesnt matter.

Yes they do.

Church, DAAs and MA are locked in three way conflict. Where one side moves, the other two do too to protect their interests.

The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors are not just "classification", its an actual faction, with a common goal(Dark Six). Sure some of them play for the other team(Zelretch) and some have their own interests(Altrouge's faction giving no fucks about Dark Six and focusing on Crimson Moon), but that changes nothing

The only reason either of three factions did NOT assure the global domination and destroy the other two, is mutually assured destruction - all three sides have enough Haxx to wipe the planet.

You can't just "Exclude" one of them.

If the balance is broken, dystopia can ensues(see: Fate/Extra, Fate/Kaleid Liner PRisma Illya, Notes, Apocrypha, the FSN future civil war)

We are talking about the Church or the Association taking someone by force.

No we are not.

The factions of the Clocktower are still part of the MA and even if they act in secret, it just means that the status of a monkey isnt something that will stop them.

But status of Head of Tohsaka Family is something that would make the rest more inclined to interfere

Tokiomi could have chose ANOTHER family. NOT an infamous magus just because the guy(Zouken) was desperate. If the survival is just so they can reach goals and having reputation and not actually have a life then it isnt any different from what the MA would do. And if he cared that much, the least he could have done is check on her. There was no logical reason to make a deal of "having no business with her" after she is taken.

He could. Without info about Zouken's true goals other options were worse.
There was a logical reason for silence agreement - If no one knew Sakura is Tohsaka, they would treat her like a Matou, which was the whole point of it.




being too stupid to see the speciffics =/= not knowing there are things dangerous to you in the world.

That's source of Tohsaka's paranoia. The night is dark and full of terrors.

The Tohsaka name has nothing to do with Rin having humanity.

In Zelretch's POV it does - Its literally "Oh its Nagato's successor? Dude managed to encounter me and NOT have his family turn into shitty mess of cosmic horror? Well, geee, this will be interesting"
Modified by Fai, 05-24-14, 8:07 AM
 
05-24-14, 8:13 AM

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DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter.

Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same.

It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person?
That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange.
You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door.

Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics".

Rin is how she is because
 
05-24-14, 8:45 AM

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ssjokg said:
DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter.

Nope.
The topic has always been about the threats to the sisters in the Magus world and how being head of a family can benefit them in protecting against them.


Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same.

Not really since the one "close to" would have no actual "worth". The allies can just cry crocodile tears and bring bad news then.


It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person?

See: tokiomi and kirei.

as I said before, Tokiomi's an idiot.


That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange.

Considering the Three Great getting close together s enough to attract Church's attention, nope.


You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door.

Blame the narrative for that. They could have added ten or so pages detailing Tokiomi's search for other options. We know he did.


Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics".

See above: Tokiomi's an idiot.


Rin is how she is because

1. We do not know the EVENTUAL outcome. Just that she won't be happy. Which is a point of view of Nasu. For me - a true happiness built after sorrow brought by clarity is worth far more than happiness built upon a lie. You'll have to wait for the upcoming Tohsaka Rin focused Visual Novel/Light Novel that deals with aftermath of one or multiple routes(common guess is that the Sea Cruise Mystery involves some inter-dimensional fuckery between different realities) and how she views what she found out about everything.
2. As I said above that's not how Zelretch sees it.
Modified by Fai, 05-24-14, 8:50 AM
 
05-24-14, 9:11 AM

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Fai said:
souledge94 said:
The real question is what kind of father would abandon his daughter the answer is not a very good one.Im sure sakura would have still been happy if she could stay with her actual family. since this is a prequel I know this prick will die and I cant wait to clap for that moment.YES! Ryuunosuke is dead wish he would have suffered more.


That happiness would depend on her survival.
In tokiomi's eyes, for a family that relies solely on their recognition to not get dissected, giving Sakura " a chance" at Matou household seemed more productive.

Of course it was not a good choice because WE know more than he does. But at least in all possible futures both of them remain alive this way.

ssjokg said:
Well, in his opinion, even if Rin and Sakura try and kill each other in the future for some magi goal, especially the Tohsaka's goal, then everything is fine since that is the best the family could get because even though Sakura has the Matou name she still has Tohsaka blood.

I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get.


Which is generally how magi world works.

Being rivals on even grounds trying to kill each other > One not even getting that and getting dissected somewhere.

In his mind this gives them equal chances at making it. Awful in human society standards? Sure. Noble in Magus standards? Yep.

HeisenDurden said:
ssjokg said:

I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get.


Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people.


Its canon that he did not know though.


THe thing is why couldint he still check on sakura.I know he gave her away but that doesint mean he cant stop by and see how she is doing since I didint see anywhere stating other wise.This just proves that crap he was spewing about actually caring about giving them a chance is crap.I also have a gut feeling that even if he did know he former daughter was being raped by worms he wouldint give two dams since we see hes a terrible father with magic on the brain.Dam these kids got the short end of the stick.They didint have a good mom or pop their uncle was the only good source of family it seems.Though rin was more lucky since she wasint chosen to go to the creepy old mans house.
Modified by souledge94, 05-24-14, 9:24 AM
 
05-24-14, 9:13 AM

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Not gonna participate in this discussion anymore, just wanted to say:

 
05-24-14, 9:15 AM

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Nope it was about random Sealing Designations forced on those without the rights of inheritance.
With or w/o the inheritance threats from outside the Association would be the same for those "savage monkeys". Even Tokiomi's concerns are about the Association only. Not even the Church.

In the case of the japanese, that nobody cares about in the western magi world, it would be the same even with a family name to "protect" them.

There is a limit. You cant say that he is just an idiot.

The Church that was allied with the Tohsaka family, the supervisors of Fuyuki, for the 4th and future wars? Yeah they would be really angry at them and cut all ties in an instant.

Any source that proves that?Or it is just speculation?

So he is an idiot only when it supports your argument?He is no genius like Rin but the story never portrayed him as an actual reatard. When it was about Rin he never stopped thinking of her future but for Sakura that ended the moment Zouken asked for her.After that it was "gee lets hope she is trained good enough to be a match for Rin".

1.So lets ignore the word of god because it is his view?What about Gen's view on Tokiomi? Tokiomi's "concerns" about Sakura dont match his actions.
And that is YOUR view. If we dont take the original creators word as facts then we might as well accept everything, like Last Episode, or Rider not being as horrible as the real one, etc etc.
You want MY views on this?

Yeah I will wait for a story that will never come in order to confirm your speculations...Nice idea...

2.But thats how it would be. And that would change how he would view her.
Modified by ssjokg, 05-24-14, 9:22 AM
 
05-24-14, 9:31 AM

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souledge94 said:

THe thing is why couldint he still check on sakura.I know he gave her away but that doesint mean he cant stop by and see how she is doing since I didint see anywhere stating other wise.This just proves that crap he was spewing about actually caring about giving them a chance is crap.I also have a gut feeling that even if he did know he former daughter was being raped by worms he wouldint give two dams since we see hes a terrible father with magic on the brain.Dam these kids got the short end of the stick.They didint have a good mom or pop.


The answer is: Because Urobuchi needed him to be a villain.

The in-story answer is harder to explain, besides simply accepting that he was an idiot to accept Zouken's deal. And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that?

 
05-24-14, 9:36 AM

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C-Core said:
And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that?

A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have.
 
05-24-14, 9:49 AM

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ssjokg said:
C-Core said:
And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that?

A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have.


While I did think this is partially true, this can't be the only reason, if he sees Sakura's and Rin's potential as a curse and regrets that, in his opinion, unlike him they cannot choose the path of the magus out of their own free will.* Honestly, I simply miss more Tokiomi POVs that could have given a more sufficient explanation.

He couldn't seriously believe his family will prosper just because he made Sakura heir to a family that a long time ago sought Akasha. It's even more baffling that he didn't check how Sakura is treated even though Matou and Sakura are almost neighbors. If he was concerned about a future she might give then what really will happen should concern him as well.

Edit: *(and thus also the choice to live a normal life). I interpreted that as him having deeper thoughts of concern than only the ones of a magus. But yeah... interpretations.
Modified by C-Core, 05-24-14, 10:14 AM
 
05-24-14, 9:50 AM

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ssjokg said:
C-Core said:
And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that?

A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have.


basically his happiness over hers a crappy father in other words.God he sucks.

Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents.
 
05-24-14, 9:54 AM

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souledge94 said:

Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents.


No, if you watch episode 1 again, you'll notice Sakura has dark brown/black hair and blue eyes. Her eye and hair color changing has to do with her body being trained and changed due to the worms.
 
05-24-14, 10:07 AM

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C-Core said:
souledge94 said:

Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents.


No, if you watch episode 1 again, you'll notice Sakura has dark brown/black hair and blue eyes. Her eye and hair color changing has to do with her body being trained and changed due to the worms.


Oh didint notice.
 
05-24-14, 10:09 AM

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C-Core said:
ssjokg said:
C-Core said:
And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that?

A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have.


While I did think this is partially true, this can't be the only reason, if he sees Sakura's and Rin's potential as a curse and regrets that, in his opinion, unlike him they cannot choose the path of the magus out of their own free will. Honestly, I simply miss more Tokiomi POVs that could have given a more sufficient explanation.
I hope there were as well .All this debate wouldnt even exist, since in the end we are fighting over interpretations based on the few things we know about him.

C-Core said:
souledge94 said:

Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents.


No, if you watch episode 1 again, you'll notice Sakura has dark brown/black hair and blue eyes. Her eye and hair color changing has to do with her body being trained and changed due to the worms.
Is it bad that I find hilarious that Deen actually showed Sakura with her original hair in the old FSN.
Modified by ssjokg, 05-24-14, 11:32 AM
 
06-07-14, 5:05 PM

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THAT

THAT WAS SO FUCKING EPIC

Everything that I wished the 1st season was (though I still liked it), this season looks like it'll be. Holy crap, the action sequences were gorgeous. Players are finally dying. The dynamics and relationships between all of them are so intense omg and they're all in play right now

I love the OP and forgot to mention I think the music on this show has been consistently great choices and atmospheric
 
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