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ssjokg said: The Dead Apostles and anything that isnt a part of the Church or Association doesnt matter. Yes they do. Church, DAAs and MA are locked in three way conflict. Where one side moves, the other two do too to protect their interests. The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors are not just "classification", its an actual faction, with a common goal(Dark Six). Sure some of them play for the other team(Zelretch) and some have their own interests(Altrouge's faction giving no fucks about Dark Six and focusing on Crimson Moon), but that changes nothing The only reason either of three factions did NOT assure the global domination and destroy the other two, is mutually assured destruction - all three sides have enough Haxx to wipe the planet. You can't just "Exclude" one of them. If the balance is broken, dystopia can ensues(see: Fate/Extra, Fate/Kaleid Liner PRisma Illya, Notes, Apocrypha, the FSN future civil war) We are talking about the Church or the Association taking someone by force. No we are not. The factions of the Clocktower are still part of the MA and even if they act in secret, it just means that the status of a monkey isnt something that will stop them. But status of Head of Tohsaka Family is something that would make the rest more inclined to interfere Tokiomi could have chose ANOTHER family. NOT an infamous magus just because the guy(Zouken) was desperate. If the survival is just so they can reach goals and having reputation and not actually have a life then it isnt any different from what the MA would do. And if he cared that much, the least he could have done is check on her. There was no logical reason to make a deal of "having no business with her" after she is taken. He could. Without info about Zouken's true goals other options were worse. There was a logical reason for silence agreement - If no one knew Sakura is Tohsaka, they would treat her like a Matou, which was the whole point of it. being too stupid to see the speciffics =/= not knowing there are things dangerous to you in the world. That's source of Tohsaka's paranoia. The night is dark and full of terrors. The Tohsaka name has nothing to do with Rin having humanity. In Zelretch's POV it does - Its literally "Oh its Nagato's successor? Dude managed to encounter me and NOT have his family turn into shitty mess of cosmic horror? Well, geee, this will be interesting" |
AhenshihaelMay 24, 2014 8:07 AM
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| DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter. Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same. It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person? That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange. You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door. Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics". Rin is how she is because |
ssjokg said: DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter. Nope. The topic has always been about the threats to the sisters in the Magus world and how being head of a family can benefit them in protecting against them. Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same. Not really since the one "close to" would have no actual "worth". The allies can just cry crocodile tears and bring bad news then. It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person? See: tokiomi and kirei. as I said before, Tokiomi's an idiot. That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange. Considering the Three Great getting close together s enough to attract Church's attention, nope. You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door. Blame the narrative for that. They could have added ten or so pages detailing Tokiomi's search for other options. We know he did. Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics". See above: Tokiomi's an idiot. Rin is how she is because 1. We do not know the EVENTUAL outcome. Just that she won't be happy. Which is a point of view of Nasu. For me - a true happiness built after sorrow brought by clarity is worth far more than happiness built upon a lie. You'll have to wait for the upcoming Tohsaka Rin focused Visual Novel/Light Novel that deals with aftermath of one or multiple routes(common guess is that the Sea Cruise Mystery involves some inter-dimensional fuckery between different realities) and how she views what she found out about everything. 2. As I said above that's not how Zelretch sees it. |
AhenshihaelMay 24, 2014 8:50 AM
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| Not gonna participate in this discussion anymore, just wanted to say: |
| Nope it was about random Sealing Designations forced on those without the rights of inheritance. With or w/o the inheritance threats from outside the Association would be the same for those "savage monkeys". Even Tokiomi's concerns are about the Association only. Not even the Church. In the case of the japanese, that nobody cares about in the western magi world, it would be the same even with a family name to "protect" them. There is a limit. You cant say that he is just an idiot. The Church that was allied with the Tohsaka family, the supervisors of Fuyuki, for the 4th and future wars? Yeah they would be really angry at them and cut all ties in an instant. Any source that proves that?Or it is just speculation? So he is an idiot only when it supports your argument?He is no genius like Rin but the story never portrayed him as an actual reatard. When it was about Rin he never stopped thinking of her future but for Sakura that ended the moment Zouken asked for her.After that it was "gee lets hope she is trained good enough to be a match for Rin". 1.So lets ignore the word of god because it is his view?What about Gen's view on Tokiomi? Tokiomi's "concerns" about Sakura dont match his actions. And that is YOUR view. If we dont take the original creators word as facts then we might as well accept everything, like Last Episode, or Rider not being as horrible as the real one, etc etc. You want MY views on this? Yeah I will wait for a story that will never come in order to confirm your speculations...Nice idea... 2.But thats how it would be. And that would change how he would view her. |
ssjokgMay 24, 2014 9:22 AM
souledge94 said: THe thing is why couldint he still check on sakura.I know he gave her away but that doesint mean he cant stop by and see how she is doing since I didint see anywhere stating other wise.This just proves that crap he was spewing about actually caring about giving them a chance is crap.I also have a gut feeling that even if he did know he former daughter was being raped by worms he wouldint give two dams since we see hes a terrible father with magic on the brain.Dam these kids got the short end of the stick.They didint have a good mom or pop. The answer is: Because Urobuchi needed him to be a villain. The in-story answer is harder to explain, besides simply accepting that he was an idiot to accept Zouken's deal. And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? |
C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. |
ssjokg said: C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. While I did think this is partially true, this can't be the only reason, if he sees Sakura's and Rin's potential as a curse and regrets that, in his opinion, unlike him they cannot choose the path of the magus out of their own free will.* Honestly, I simply miss more Tokiomi POVs that could have given a more sufficient explanation. He couldn't seriously believe his family will prosper just because he made Sakura heir to a family that a long time ago sought Akasha. It's even more baffling that he didn't check how Sakura is treated even though Matou and Sakura are almost neighbors. If he was concerned about a future she might give then what really will happen should concern him as well. Edit: *(and thus also the choice to live a normal life). I interpreted that as him having deeper thoughts of concern than only the ones of a magus. But yeah... interpretations. |
CapsuleCoreMay 24, 2014 10:14 AM
souledge94 said: Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents. No, if you watch episode 1 again, you'll notice Sakura has dark brown/black hair and blue eyes. Her eye and hair color changing has to do with her body being trained and changed due to the worms. |
C-Core said: I hope there were as well .All this debate wouldnt even exist, since in the end we are fighting over interpretations based on the few things we know about him.ssjokg said: C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. While I did think this is partially true, this can't be the only reason, if he sees Sakura's and Rin's potential as a curse and regrets that, in his opinion, unlike him they cannot choose the path of the magus out of their own free will. Honestly, I simply miss more Tokiomi POVs that could have given a more sufficient explanation. C-Core said: Is it bad that I find hilarious that Deen actually showed Sakura with her original hair in the old FSN.souledge94 said: Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents. No, if you watch episode 1 again, you'll notice Sakura has dark brown/black hair and blue eyes. Her eye and hair color changing has to do with her body being trained and changed due to the worms. |
ssjokgMay 24, 2014 11:32 AM
| THAT THAT WAS SO FUCKING EPIC Everything that I wished the 1st season was (though I still liked it), this season looks like it'll be. Holy crap, the action sequences were gorgeous. Players are finally dying. The dynamics and relationships between all of them are so intense omg and they're all in play right now I love the OP and forgot to mention I think the music on this show has been consistently great choices and atmospheric |
| Just where did Archer got that flying machine?! Well.. Tokiomi is such a coward in front of Archer. And he sees his daughters only as tool to reach origin.., he gave Sakura away only to raise his chances. He is someone who exploits life of others for his own gain, showing no respect to it and for that he deserves nothing than death. Even in his state Kariya is more humane than Tohsaka ever was and would be. And the thing that happened there openly on public, not to mention they let the people see it, that's one big hell of a shit. Toshaka had that region under his jurisdiction and to allow something like this.. Magic Association really won't be happy. Ryuunosuke death was surprise but one only has to ask why Kiritsugu didn't do that earlier. But his thinking is pretty self-centred. He fears to disease whole city by Caster's abominations but only because that would end War. On the other hand he is ok with using Excalibur with all its devastating power right in the middle of the city. Yeah, sure, that's the way of Justice. Reaching his goal no matter what casualties on the road... but is something acquired like that really worth the cost? |
| Just where did Archer get that aircraft? |
SanaeSnake said: Just where did Archer get that aircraft? Gate of Babylon. You know, that thing that also contains the wine cellar of the gods. |
SanaeSnake said: Just where did Archer get that aircraft? Search Vimana in google. |
| Hmmm yeah as much as I loved the OP/ED, the previous ones were better :D Amazing start! :D Also I hope Tokiomi dies painfully. |
| Simply beautiful. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| This was a really great episode, probably the best one yet. The OP isn't impressing at all though, and the ED isn't really bad though I probably still like the first one more. |
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| Lol Emiya was cold, calculating, and anticlimactic. |
| I prefer the old OP and ED. Not saying that the new ones are bad, just that the old ones were really good. |
| MAL: A community that thinks every anime is bad, but rates everything a 7/10. |
| The Lord has come! THE LORD HAS COOOOOOOOOOOOOOME! |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
| Beautiful op song,Nice Kalafina!!^^but I prepare the season 1 opening song,,how many times I repeat it but I can't memorize it,>.< |
| 5/5 Episode that gives a lot of action. How early is not bad, there is everything in the narrative, fighting, rivalry between Master, blood; there is plenty of choice. Very nice opening and ending. Drawings and animations are always top quality. |
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| Boom! Headshot was the greatest COOL! I would have liked it if he had gotten a more messy end, but I suppose Emiya knows his business. This beginning to the second season was awesome. I hope it'll continue this trend and have more actual battles, as opposed to the first season since I guess all exposition has been done. Wonder who will exit this stage next? On the matter of exits, after 5 minutes in the first season, Berserker reappearance by taking over a fighter plane, was one dynamic entry(or reentry in this case). Just one question. How is Caster able to survive in this world now that his Master his dead? Let me rephrase that, how is he able to keep that abomination spell in effect when it probably consumes high levels of mana, and he has no Master to draw it from? Since when the same thing happened to the Servant was left near death and only healed after it was helped by iron hands or something(my memory of FSN is very hazy) right? |
R2Jan 27, 2015 7:57 AM
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R2 said: |
| ^Ah! I see. Thanks for the clarification. |
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| lmao. Tokiomi is basically forced to kiss his own Servant's ass because Gilgamesh is so egotistical. |
~my list
| I liked the previous OP/ED better, but the visuals of this ED were so pretty *_* Nice episode. Am I the only one who's rooting for Matou Karya? (Die, Tokiomi, with your little golden bitch) |
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k0k0 said: They both have selfish goals and go about achieving them the stupid way, so I don't really see why you'd root for one over the other. Well actually Tokiomi's planning is almost flawless, he just fucks up the execution.I liked the previous OP/ED better, but the visuals of this ED were so pretty *_* Nice episode. Am I the only one who's rooting for Matou Karya? (Die, Tokiomi, with your little golden bitch) I'd say I sympathize with Kariya though, especially considering what the worms did to him physically and mentally. |
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GARBrotato said: k0k0 said: They both have selfish goals and go about achieving them the stupid way, so I don't really see why you'd root for one over the other. Well actually Tokiomi's planning is almost flawless, he just fucks up the execution.I liked the previous OP/ED better, but the visuals of this ED were so pretty *_* Nice episode. Am I the only one who's rooting for Matou Karya? (Die, Tokiomi, with your little golden bitch) I'd say I sympathize with Kariya though, especially considering what the worms did to him physically and mentally. Kariya at least tries to hide his selfish reasons under a noble goal, Tokiomi just talks shit to him and the viewers don't really care about his plan to reach the Root/Origin. |
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kokusho36 said: GARBrotato said: They both have selfish goals and go about achieving them the stupid way, so I don't really see why you'd root for one over the other. Well actually Tokiomi's planning is almost flawless, he just fucks up the execution. I'd say I sympathize with Kariya though, especially considering what the worms did to him physically and mentally. Kariya at least tries to hide his selfish reasons under a noble goal, Tokiomi just talks shit to him and the viewers don't really care about his plan to reach the Root/Origin. But at least Tokiomi does not hide what he wants and approaches his goals in more mature way(still a tunnel vision idiot just like veryone in the Zero cast). |
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| Antagonizing people to provoke attacks totally proves your point :) Not that the King of Heroes would care about the opinion of a mongrel. |
nocorrasMar 8, 2015 4:15 PM
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CookingPriest said: Perhaps but it's not like Kariya didn't care about Sakura at all. His noble goal may have been to hide his true intentions but he still genuinely wanted to help Sakura too.kokusho36 said: Kariya at least tries to hide his selfish reasons under a noble goal, Tokiomi just talks shit to him and the viewers don't really care about his plan to reach the Root/Origin. But at least Tokiomi does not hide what he wants and approaches his goals in more mature way(still a tunnel vision idiot just like veryone in the Zero cast). |
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| I feel like my posts are being stalked. I don't really care about the hows and whats of the flawless or flawed plans of the Masters. Tokiomi is an ass. Isn't that reason enough to shut him down? Karya has sacrificed his body for a little girl he wants to save from a woeful fate. This act should have been her father's responsibility. So yes, Tokiomi should die. |
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k0k0 said: Ehh no.I feel like my posts are being stalked. k0k0 said: Tokiomi really isn't an ass. He has 0 knowledge about what's going on. If Kariya had the decency to explain to him what 'training' means for Zouken, the whole situation would have been solved by simple talking.I don't really care about the hows and whats of the flawless or flawed plans of the Masters. Tokiomi is an ass. Isn't that reason enough to shut him down? Karya has sacrificed his body for a little girl he wants to save from a woeful fate. This act should have been her father's responsibility. So yes, Tokiomi should die. But nah why do that when he can, you know, just go like "I must kill Tokiomi so I can bang Aoi, and the best way to do that is if I can get Sakura back to her. She'll definitely love me if I do that, and by getting rid of Tokiomi everything will go smoothly." |
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GARBrotato said: k0k0 said: Ehh no.I feel like my posts are being stalked. k0k0 said: Tokiomi really isn't an ass. He has 0 knowledge about what's going on. If Kariya had the decency to explain to him what 'training' means for Zouken, the whole situation would have been solved by simple talking.I don't really care about the hows and whats of the flawless or flawed plans of the Masters. Tokiomi is an ass. Isn't that reason enough to shut him down? Karya has sacrificed his body for a little girl he wants to save from a woeful fate. This act should have been her father's responsibility. So yes, Tokiomi should die. But nah why do that when he can, you know, just go like "I must kill Tokiomi so I can bang Aoi, and the best way to do that is if I can get Sakura back to her. She'll definitely love me if I do that, and by getting rid of Tokiomi everything will go smoothly." Huh. How is it possible that Tokiomi does not know the Matou family's training regime? He's already witnessed the state of Karya, so how can the thought that his daughter will turn into a similar being not cross his mind? In that case he's also stupid and, therefore, deserves to die. |
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| Wasn't it mentioned in the LN that So lazy and haven't read the novel :/ so I'm not sure if the spoiler is true. |
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GARBrotato said: Tokiomi really isn't an ass. He has 0 knowledge about what's going on. If Kariya had the decency to explain to him what 'training' means for Zouken, the whole situation would have been solved by simple talking. But nah why do that when he can, you know, just go like "I must kill Tokiomi so I can bang Aoi, and the best way to do that is if I can get Sakura back to her. She'll definitely love me if I do that, and by getting rid of Tokiomi everything will go smoothly." I was under the impression that Tokiomi would have approved any training method if it meant more glory for his "family". The discussion between him and Kariya was pretty clear on this, imho, but maybe the novel explains it better. |
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k0k0 said: The difference is Kariya doesn't have much potential and sucks at magic, and needed to power up in a very short amount of time.Huh. How is it possible that Tokiomi does not know the Matou family's training regime? He's already witnessed the state of Karya, so how can the thought that his daughter will turn into a similar being not cross his mind? Sakura doesn't have to do that, she just needs to grow up and give birth to a mage. Which doesn't require the same thing as Kariya. k0k0 said: Oh he definitely is, but so is Kariya.In that case he's also stupid and, therefore, deserves to die. |
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kokusho36 said: GARBrotato said: Tokiomi really isn't an ass. He has 0 knowledge about what's going on. If Kariya had the decency to explain to him what 'training' means for Zouken, the whole situation would have been solved by simple talking. But nah why do that when he can, you know, just go like "I must kill Tokiomi so I can bang Aoi, and the best way to do that is if I can get Sakura back to her. She'll definitely love me if I do that, and by getting rid of Tokiomi everything will go smoothly." I was under the impression that Tokiomi would have approved any training method if it meant more glory for his "family". The discussion between him and Kariya was pretty clear on this, imho, but maybe the novel explains it better. That's an interesting point, if we take Sakura's words literally in HF Either way the whole glory thing is dumb, who really knows out side of the two families that made the deal? |
nocorrasMar 8, 2015 4:50 PM
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kokusho36 said: I was under the impression that Tokiomi would have approved any training method if it meant more glory for his "family". The discussion between him and Kariya was pretty clear on this, imho, but maybe the novel explains it better. Not really Kinoko Natsu and Urobuchi both stated that had Tokiomi have known, he would have helped Kariya. In Tokiomi's eyes tho, Kariya was a raving madman trying to get his wife. nocorras said: Wasn't it mentioned in the LN that So lazy and haven't read the novel :/ so I'm not sure if the spoiler is true. Yes, that too. Tokiomi could only guarantee protection to ONE. so instead of having to chose he wanted a way so both could be protected. Tohsaka family is not important. They barely got the position they have by accepting christianity and by having an ancestor who was involved with Zelretch. Otherwise their name does not stand for much so only successor would be able to wield it as a privilege. If both grew in same family - one would get all, the other nothing and thus would detest the one who got all. And the one who is successor would have all doors opened to her, while the one who is not would only get roadblocks. Mahoyo showcases a Lot of what Tokiomi wanted to avoid with the sisters. GARBrotato said: k0k0 said: Oh he definitely is, but so is Kariya.In that case he's also stupid and, therefore, deserves to die. To be exact: EVERYONE in this war is stupid idiot. |
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GARBrotato said: The difference is Kariya doesn't have much potential and sucks at magic, and needed to power up in a very short amount of time. Sakura doesn't have to do that, she just needs to grow up and give birth to a mage. Which doesn't require the same thing as Kariya. She doesn't have to be a Mage herself? But didn't Tokiomi mention that she had 'the potential' that he didn't want to be wasted? If giving birth to a Mage is all that she was supposed to be used for, then she should've just married one, no? EDIT: Karya said Tokiomi would pit sister against sister in a battle, so that would mean Sakura wasn't just a vessel for the birth of a Mage, but would've fought. And we're agreed, aren't we, that Tokiomi fully knew the consequences of sending his daughter to the Matou family? In that case, I'm going to assume what kokusho36 said: He would have approved any training method if it meant more glory for his "family". I'm assuming you've read the light novels/other stuff. Fate/Zero is my first Fate/ series. |
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k0k0 said: GARBrotato said: The difference is Kariya doesn't have much potential and sucks at magic, and needed to power up in a very short amount of time. Sakura doesn't have to do that, she just needs to grow up and give birth to a mage. Which doesn't require the same thing as Kariya. She doesn't have to be a Mage herself? But didn't Tokiomi mentioned that she had 'the potential' that he didn't want to be wasted? If giving birth to a Mage is all that she was supposed to be used for, then she should've just married one, no? EDIT: Karya said Tokiomi would pit sister against sister in a battle, so that would mean Sakura wasn't just a vessel for the birth of a Mage, but would've fought. And we're agreed, aren't we, that Tokiomi fully knew the consequences of sending his daughter to the Matou family? In that case, I'm going to assume what kokusho36 said: He would have approved any training method if it meant more glory for his "family". I'm assuming you've read the light novels/other stuff. Fate/Zero is my first Fate/ series. That potential does not require some sort of experimentation. Only knowledge, really. Being the most powerful child in matou family, she would be named successor(even if unable to get the magic crest, theoretically) and thus would have all that is needed available to advance. Being a successor of a powerful family would open all the doors provide less danger from association upon failures. IF she was to stay in the same family, then only one sister would be the successor and the other would have no protection - and with potential like that (Rin and Sakura has magic circuits and magic output that rivals the best of best in the whole magi world), the one who is not successor, would end up in pieces in some magi association lab at worst, or get a sealing designation and be hunted at best. No, Tokiomi would not agree to Zouken's true nature and to the training he does. conservative as he may be, Tokiomi is responsible for that land, and what Zouken is doing very clearly breaks the rules. Tokiomi simply was gullible enough to believe what Zouken was selling. Tokiomi saw what he did as giving equal chances to both children and allowing them to be their best. |
AhenshihaelMar 8, 2015 5:00 PM
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CookingPriest said: That potential does not require some sort of experimentation. Only knowledge, really. Being the most powerful child in matou family, she would be named successor(even if unable to get the magic crest, theoretically) and thus would have all that is needed available to advance. Being a successor of a powerful family would provide less danger from association. IF she was to stay in the same family, then only one sister would be the successor and the other would have no protection - and with potential like that (Rin and Sakura has magic circuits and magic output that rivals the best of best in the whole magi world), the one who is not successor, would end up in pieces in some magi association lab at worst, or get a sealing designation and be hunted at best. No, Tokiomi would not agree to Zouken's true nature and to the training he does. conservative as he may be, Tokiomi is responsible for that land, and what Zouken is doing very clearly breaks the rules. Tokiomi simply was gullible enough to believe what Zouken was selling. Tokiomi saw what he did as giving equal chances to both children and allowing them to be their best. Hm. I wasn't aware of that. It does slightly change my opinion of Tokiomi. However, when he faced off Karya, he must have had some awareness that his daughter might have been put through what he was, making him turn out to be the way he is. And besides all that, he still chose to stick to his plans of keeping Sakura there, going so far as thanking Karya for breaking off his association with his family. He also called them "rabble" I think, so it's hard to believe he'd mind Sakura's training with Zouken. On the other hand, Karya simply wants to save Sakura from the fate he knows will befall her. And he loved the girls (and their mother, I think) so he fights for a noble cause. |
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| Always have loved this season's OP & ED. Watching these crazy set pieces still get me just as hyped as the first time I watched them. |
| Caster's master is out. That was a 'cool' shot. But not as cool as Berserker! :D The guy is really badass. I can't wait to hear his story. The new ED is so beautiful! |
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