Kara no Kyoukai 5: Mujun Rasen Episode 1 Discussion

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Probably the best KnK so far. Solid 6/10.

There were some problems, though. I don't like the way Shiki helped the Emiya-clone at the beginning of the movie. Felt totally out of character from what we've seen in the past few movies. She definitely did not seem like the type to hunt down a guy who dropped his key, rescue him from thugs, and then allow him to stay in her room for a week. The unexplained change in her character bothers me.

The fight between Touko and Araya was really cool, but it got silly when they both revived themselves.

"Aha! You thought you killed my puppet, but it was actually still alive. Now you lose!"

"Or so you thought! That was actually a puppet of me. I'm actually a part of this building, so I can't be killed anyway. Now you lose!"

"Guess again! That was actually my puppet, controlling a puppet. In fact, I might also be a puppet right now! There's no way to know."

Ridiculous. I can't feel any sense of danger for the rest of the series now because Touko can create infinite puppets for herself to re-activate once she dies. Hell, she can probably do the same for Shiki and Kokuto, effectively making all main characters invincible. Not cool at all.

The explanation for how Shiki escaped the "enclosed space" was also pretty vague. Textbook example of a deus ex machina. Somehow, she managed to "cut" the building? And she did this because Araya decided to use his magic powers to entrap her instead of going for a normal convention like... rope, a gag, and maybe a cage? At least it's better than the time she somehow "killed" appendicitis with her knife.

Needless to say, I definitely wouldn't rank this as the greatest anime of all time. Aside from the music and the animation, the plot and characters are no better than half the supernatural/action genre - Ga-rei zero, Kurokami, Shikabane Hime, Shakugan no Shana, Fate/Stay Night, Le Chevalier d'Eon, or any of a dozen others I could name. Nonetheless, it was enjoyable.

Feb 3, 2009 5:08 PM

#99

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a few of the things that bothered you seems to me like you were just thinking too much.
One: the fight between Touko and Araya wasnt really that Ridiculous. it is true that Touka can have a sort of partial immortality due to her puppets but even with that she is was no match for Araya. i guess you only think about it if youve experienced other Type-Moon works but battles are like that. the characters always have obscene powers that make them invincible or the ability to kill in one shot, but that doesnt mean they cant die and it certainly doesnt make them have any less of a sense of danger. And Araya never had to revive himself. the building was his body so without some great attack that damages the building Touka wasnt able to hurt him.

Also Touka only has 1 spare body, its not as if she can make new ones ever day, it takes work that takes years maybe even centuries to accomplish that level of magic. She wouldnt be able to creat infinite bodys for anyone and even if she could she wouldnt be able to replicate Shikis ability since it is comes from Shikis brain.

two: The reason Shiki escaped was pretty obvious and didnt need much explanation if you remember what her power is. she can destroy any magic barrier so of course it they didnt need to explain what happened. that complaint really doesnt have much basis if you remember what her power actually does. And again, she can "somehow "killed" appendicitis with her knife" because of her power, if you forgot what it is look into it just a little bit and it will become obvious.

Though the change in Shikis character is completely understandable and i can see why you would think that way. but its not something im gonna question since i havnt read the novel yet because it appears they did leave out a few parts that made a difference in explaining certain things.

But overall im glad you enjoyed it.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 5:12 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 5:26 PM

#100

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Ketuekigami said:
Also Touka only has 1 spare body, its not as if she can make new ones ever day, it takes work that takes years maybe even centuries to accomplish that level of magic. She wouldnt be able to creat infinite bodys for anyone and even if she could she wouldnt be able to replicate Shikis ability since it is comes from Shikis brain.

How do we know that? All she has to do is make one clone of herself. That clone can make another clone of herself. And that clone can make another clone, forever and ever.

I mean, once they explain why she can't do that, I'll have no problem buying your argument, but in the meantime, Touko is essentially invincible.

Ketuekigami said:
The reason Shiki escaped was pretty obvious and didnt need much explanation if you remember what her power is. she can destroy any magic barrier so of course it they didnt need to explain what happened.

Right, but that doesn't explain why Araya didn't just.... tie her up. Even if she can figure out how to "kill" the ropes, I'd like to see how she would do it without being able to move. Either Araya is extremely stupid, or Shiki's power is even more hax than it seems.

Ketuekigami said:
And again, she can "somehow "killed" appendicitis with her knife" because of her power, if you forgot what it is look into it just a little bit and it will become obvious.

Appendicitis is an inflammation. What did she kill? The fact that the appendix was inflamed? What she did was roughly equivalent to somehow killing a bruise (by stabbing it). It's completely stupid.

Feb 3, 2009 5:42 PM

#101

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naikou said:

How do we know that? All she has to do is make one clone of herself. That clone can make another clone of herself. And that clone can make another clone, forever and ever.I mean, once they explain why she can't do that, I'll have no problem buying your argument, but in the meantime, Touko is essentially invincible.

It's not a clone. It's a puppet. And it needs a soul to operate it.

naikou said:

Araya isn't your normal kidnapper, he is a magician for christ sake. Since you have just explained the mistake Araya made, which Touko pointed out in the Movie, so I don't really know what you're point is. If you're saying Araya is stupid for not tieing her up. It's almost like saying why didn't Lelouch geass everyone to listen to him in the first place (Yes I know its a stupid example).

naikou said:

Ketuekigami said:
And again, she can "somehow "killed" appendicitis with her knife" because of her power, if you forgot what it is look into it just a little bit and it will become obvious.

Appendicitis is an inflammation. What did she kill? The fact that the appendix was inflamed? What she did was roughly equivalent to somehow killing a bruise (by stabbing it). It's completely stupid.

She destroyed the existence of it. She didn't cut (kill, or w/e) it.

Feb 3, 2009 5:48 PM

#102

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btw, im not pulling all of these answers out of my ass. all the different elements such as "souls", "magic and magi", and everything else is present in Type-Moons other works and im able to understand it all thoroughly because its explained in each way differently and more in depth (it would take literally 30 mins to explain most of the things and they did spend 30 mins explaining them in the games).

one: the clone cant be activated until she dies because once she dies her "soul" is automatically implanted into the clone. she cant replicate her "soul" so she cant just make an army of living replicas. only 1 can be alive at a time.

two: thats because Arya didnt know the limits of her ability. There are only a handful of people who have her ability (handful bieng a number below 5) in the word and even so the extent they can use the powers are different (see Shiki from Tsukihime). And Araya isnt stupid, his magic is enough to bind almost anyone indefinitely. with the confidence of him knowing that and the lack of knowledge of Shikis ability he didnt think she would be able to break out.

three: I know the answer to that is very vague but it is explained but not in the movies. the answer to that is more in Tsukihime but her ability can "kill" the concept of things. for example even things that dont have a form such as magic still has a "death" and she can kill it, but it must be something that exists. a bruise is not something we can use in the explanation but a disease or a tumor is. Also, Shiki didnt "kill" Fuginos appendicitis. she killed her pain, witch could be the equivalent of destroying the nervs in her brain that is causing the pain.

but whatever, it may sound stupid to you but Type-Moon has built an extremely successful company on these "stupid" as you would say concepts, and gathered hordes of fans, so if anything what you think is "stupid" is probably just you trying to find fault with it in any way you can or just over thinking everything and trying to say that in real life this is so ridiculously impossible, but its all completely reasonable and explainable in the Type-Moon world.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 5:52 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 5:50 PM

#103

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Uminekko said:
It's not a clone. It's a puppet. And it needs a soul to operate it.

Call it what you want. I still haven't seen a reason why she couldn't mass-produce them.

Uminekko said:
Araya isn't your normal kidnapper, he is a magician for christ sake. Since you have just explained the mistake Araya made, which Touko pointed out in the Movie, so I don't really know what you're point is. If you're saying Araya is stupid for not tieing her up. It's almost like saying why didn't Lelouch geass everyone to listen to him in the first place (Yes I know its a stupid example).

It's funny because I had that exact problem with Code Geass. But anyway, what you're saying is that Araya locked her inside a magical barrier after he saw her break his seals, and then he didn't bother to prevent her from moving around and damaging the seals.

If that's the case, then fine, but it just lowers my opinion of the writing of the movie.

Uminekko said:
She destroyed the existence of it. She didn't cut (kill, or w/e) it.

She destroyed the existence... of the inflammation of her appendix. By stabbing it. o.O

Feb 3, 2009 5:56 PM

#104

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naikou said:

Uminekko said:
It's not a clone. It's a puppet. And it needs a soul to operate it.

Call it what you want. I still haven't seen a reason why she couldn't mass-produce them.

Uminekko said:
She destroyed the existence of it. She didn't cut (kill, or w/e) it.

She destroyed the existence... of the inflammation of her appendix. By stabbing it. o.O

1. Who said she stabbed it?
2. Seals =/= magic barriers. And it is repeated don't know how many times that. She cuts existences. And she was sound sleep at the "source" when Araya captured her.
3. Puppets so close to a human body isn't something you can mass produce, it requires a long long time, and a massive amount of magical energy to link the nerves, forming tissues, etc.

All of the things i said above were also explained in the movies.

IiotokoFeb 3, 2009 6:02 PM

Feb 3, 2009 6:00 PM

#105

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if your looking for exact answers your looking in the wrong place. it took the Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime game 10s of 20s of 50s of hours to explain all the questions your asking so if you dont want to be here discussing it for days and days i suggest you either play the games or dont complain because you seem to be thinking that you will understand if we tell you in a few words but its not gonna happen. The Type-Moon works have some of the most in depth and complicated stories ever written. its a world of magic were logic doesnt apply.

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Feb 3, 2009 6:01 PM

#106

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Ketuekigami said:
if your looking for exact answers your looking in the wrong place. it took the Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime game 10s of 20s of 50s of hours to explain all the questions your answering so if you dont want to be here discussing it for days and days i suggest you either play the games or dont complain because you seem to be thinking that you will understand if we tell you in a few words but its not gonna happen. The Type-Moon works have some of the most in depth and complicated stories ever written.

Stop.. Please.. You're making this sound so complex and hard to understand when it's not.

Feb 3, 2009 6:03 PM

#107

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Uminekko said:
1. Who said she stabbed it?

That's what happened! She says, "If you were in pain, why didn't you say so?" And then she stabs her in the stomach. Then she walks out of the complex and says, "I killed the disease inside of her. If you're quick, you might be able to save her."

Uminekko said:
2. Seals =/= magic barriers. And it is repeated don't know how many times that. She cuts existences.

Oh, right. Because there's a huge freaking difference between "seals" and "magic barriers".

Uminekko said:
3. Puppets so close to a human body isn't something you can mass produce, it requires a long long time, and mass magic energy to link the nerves and forming tissues.

There's absolutely no evidence for that statement yet. For all we know, they can be produced in a factory. But suppose you're right. Suppose she only has one spare at a time. The second she dies, she goes to work building a new spare. She is still invincible (or nearly so).

Feb 3, 2009 6:04 PM

#108

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Uminekko said:

Stop.. Please.. You're making this sound so complex and hard to understand when it's not.

its not for us because weve played the games. all the questions about magic and Mystic eyes are explained thoroughly there but without that info it would sound far fetched to people who think about it to seriously like naikou here.

EDIT

naikou said:

Uminekko said:
1. Who said she stabbed it?

Uminekko said:
2. Seals =/= magic barriers. And it is repeated don't know how many times that. She cuts existences.

Oh, right. Because there's a huge freaking difference between "seals" and "magic barriers".

Uminekko said:
3. Puppets so close to a human body isn't something you can mass produce, it requires a long long time, and mass magic energy to link the nerves and forming tissues.

naikou... just ... stop. if you were expecting questions like this to be answered the way your asking the movie would have been another 2 hours long. Stop asking for exact explanations then saying theres no evidence for it. it just makes you sound like an asshole who cant enjoy a fictional story without every last bit of info being explained.

And alot of this info was present in the other movies, you probably werent paying attention because you hated them so much.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 6:12 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 6:25 PM

#109

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It's easy to make claims without any evidence. You're entitled to feel however you want about the movie, but don't try to refute my criticisms if you can't even come up with some proof to back up your claims.

Ketuekigami said:
it just makes you sound like an asshole who cant enjoy a fictional story without every last bit of info being explained.

Inconsistencies bother me. They detract from my enjoyment, especially from movies which are trying to go for a serious tone like Kara no Kyoukai. If you're willing to overlook writing flaws, then that's fine. Don't expect me to do the same.

Feb 3, 2009 6:28 PM

#110

hirahira

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Shiki is just so awesome <3 <3 <3 <3

I doubt I would enjoy KnK nearly as much if she wasn't in it

that other crazy character was awesome too. He almost seemed like a Baccano character xD

Feb 3, 2009 6:28 PM

#111

Nayah

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Saw naikou last post update in here just to end up with this (page 6 only).

Thank Haruhi-sama, i haven't spoiled myself yet.

Keep up the good work fellas.

Feb 3, 2009 6:34 PM

#112

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naikou said:
It's easy to make claims without any evidence. You're entitled to feel however you want about the movie, but don't try to refute my criticisms if you can't even come up with some proof to back up your claims.

Ketuekigami said:
it just makes you sound like an asshole who cant enjoy a fictional story without every last bit of info being explained.

we have been explaining everything youve been saying but your only answer has been "theres no proof" when our proof is our knowledge of the Type-Moon world, and get this... the fact that we've played the games and read the novels. if your not gonna listen to someone with that much more knowledge then you then your never gonna understand.. we have plenty of proof but you just done seem to be listening. It seems that the only proof your going to ever accept is if we said "at so and so point in the movie this is explained" but get this... its not gonna happen because we'd have to go through every movie and tell you that and im not gonna work that hard to convince you on something that your just not gonna accept.

There are no writing flaws that you have brought up. everything has been explained in the previous movies and if you want the answers then go back and watch them without thinking how "horrible" you think they are because you wont pay attention that way.

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Feb 3, 2009 6:41 PM

#113

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Ketuekigami said:
we have been explaining everything youve been saying but your only answer has been "theres no proof" when our proof is our knowledge of the Type-Moon world.

That's funny, because I've actually played through Tsukihime and Melty Blood, and seen Fate/Stay Night, and I don't remember it explaining anywhere why Touko is limited to one clone. Or how long it takes for her to make a new clone.

Perhaps you could tell me exactly where in the "Type-moon world" this is explained?

Ketuekigami said:
There our no writing flaws that you have brought up.

You mean like these ones?

naikou said:
I don't like the way Shiki helped the Emiya-clone at the beginning of the movie. Felt totally out of character from what we've seen in the past few movies. She definitely did not seem like the type to hunt down a guy who dropped his key, rescue him from thugs, and then allow him to stay in her room for a week. The unexplained change in her character bothers me.

naikou said:
The explanation for how Shiki escaped the "enclosed space" was also pretty vague. Textbook example of a deus ex machina. Somehow, she managed to "cut" the building?

naikou said:
Touko can create infinite puppets for herself to re-activate once she dies.

Feb 3, 2009 6:51 PM

#114

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all the things about Mystic eyes are explained in Tsukihime and all Magic is in FSN. and yes, you will get absolutely no information from the FSN anime if your looking for answers there. Oh and if youve really played through Tsukihime you should understand about Shikis ability but it seems you werent paying enough attention there either.

how about this... weve already explained all of those but you just dont seem to accept our answers. so i dont see the point in trying to explain something to someone who wont accept the answers that were explained to them. If you want answers to those apparent "flaws in the plot" go back and look at our answers. its as simple as that.

oh and btw, if your gonna quote and respond to only half of my reply i dont see how we're gonna get anywhere. how bout the fact that i said its all explained in the previous movies and if you cant understand that then your never gonna understand anything in the movies and dont expect me to explain them when all your gonna say is "theres no proof" when its all there in the previous 4 movies.

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Feb 3, 2009 6:51 PM

#115

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You better check the dictionary for what clone means. Clones are made by genetic engineering.
It's a >>handmade<< puppet that functions the same as a normal human body. Even if she has a whole basement of her puppets, Touko is not invisible, remember how Araya kept the head unscratched for her not to go to the next puppet.

As for the "writing flaws"
Blame the director for not making it clear then, since it was fully explained in the novel.

Oh just in case you say anything similar to "then why are you defending how great it is."
I'm only trying to get you clear up some stuff, so maybe you can enjoy it more (but it seems my answers weren't good enough for you).

IiotokoFeb 3, 2009 7:05 PM

Feb 3, 2009 7:05 PM

#116

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Ketuekigami said:
all the things about Mystic eyes are explained in Tsukihime and all Magic is in FSN.

Could you be a little more specific? The only mystic eyes thing I remember is Akiha's ability, which seems to be quite different from Shiki's.

Ketuekigami said:
oh and btw, if your gonna quote and respond to only half of my reply i dont see how we're gonna get anywhere. how bout the fact that i said its all explained in the previous movies and if you cant understand that then your never gonna understand anything in the movies and dont expect me to explain them when all your gonna say is "theres no proof" when its all there in the previous 4 movies.

What arguments specifically do you want me to respond to? You keep saying "go back and read my posts," but I have no idea what part you're referring to. I could do the same thing, watch:

You obviously don't understand, go back and read all of my posts if you want to know why I think this isn't the greatest anime of all time.

See? That gets us nowhere. If you want me to reply to something, simply quote it again, and I'll do my best to respond. I apologize if I skipped over anything you think is important.

Uminekko said:
You better check the dictionary for what clone means. Clones are made by genetic engineering.
It's a >>handmade<< puppet that functions the same as a normal human body. Even if she has a whole basement of her puppets. And Touko is not invisible, remember how Araya kept the head unscratched for her not to go to the next puppet.

I don't see why the distinction between clones and puppets is important, but if you prefer, I'll call them puppets. Even if you keep her head in a jar, you can't do more than inconvenience her slightly. Eventually someone will break the jar, or she'll die of starvation, or that body will get old and wear out.

Uminekko said:
Blame the director for not making it clear then, since it was fully explained in the novel.

I think I'll do just that. Regardless of how good the book is, the anime should stand on its own.

Feb 3, 2009 7:11 PM

#117

Massaki

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Last time I checked, Akiha didn't have any Mystic Eyes, at all. Her ability is in a completely diferent level from Ryougi Shiki's.

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【&】

➲ 🅼🅰🅽🅶🅰 🅻🅸🆂🆃

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Feb 3, 2009 7:15 PM

#118

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My bad. I meant the ability to see Akiha's ability that various characters in Tsukihime have.

Feb 3, 2009 7:18 PM

#119

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This is gonna be my last post in this thread, I'm getting really tired of this.

You don't have to read all of it. Just in case you don't know how a clone is made.

Reproductive cloning uses "somatic cell nuclear transfer" (SCNT) to create animals that are genetically identical. This process entails the transfer of a nucleus from a donor adult cell (somatic cell) to an egg which has no nucleus. If the egg begins to divide normally it is transferred into the uterus of the surrogate mother.
Such clones are not strictly identical since the somatic cells may contain mutations in their nuclear DNA. Additionally, the mitochondria in the cytoplasm also contains DNA and during SCNT this DNA is wholly from the donor egg, thus the mitochondrial genome is not the same as that of the nucleus donor cell from which it was produced. This may have important implications for cross-species nuclear transfer in which nuclear-mitochondrial incompatibilities may lead to death.

As for the head in a jar.
The head isn't alive. Touko that time was considered "dead", but she can't move her entire soul without having her original body totally destroyed. ...And Formalin exists in the TM world.

I hope that you are now a little bit clear about the movie now.

IiotokoFeb 3, 2009 7:25 PM

Feb 3, 2009 7:26 PM

#120

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same here, im done... this is ridiculous.

Shiki (Tohno)s eyes, which are basically the same as Ryougai's is explained through the entire game. there is no "where is it", its in the main 2 routes. Arcueid explains it at least 3 times in her route.

Actually you cant say the same thing to me because all iv been saying the whole time is "its all explained in all 5 movies". Just go back and pay attention and it will all be clear.
Ex 1: you see Touka working on making puppets by connecting nerves but it was obviously something that takes time. She doesnt just "magically put them together" there "hand made" meaning "she does everything with her hands.
Ex1.5: Touko says (in #5) that when she is killed her soul is implanted into the clone (puppet).

example found outside and inside KnK.
EX 2: and you would know this if you played Tsukihime. quote from Arcueid. "you can kill anything as long as it exists, armor or magical enhancements dont matter for you". Shikis (both of them) can "kill" anything as long as it exists. that includes magic (as shown in KnK #3 when Shiki "killed" Fuginos ability) and living things. Also she can "kill" things without any limitation of where or what it is, as in Tsukihime when Shiki killed the poison that was in Kohaku.

This argument will go nowhere because of your refusal to pay closer attention to the previous movies so theres no point in arguing this anymore. All the previous movies were meant to lead up to this one and everything from #5 was at least explained beforehand if not in the actual movie.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 7:33 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 7:39 PM

#121

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Ketuekigami said:
Ex 1: you see Touka working on making puppets by connecting nerves but it was obviously something that takes time. She doesnt just magically put them together "there "hand made" meaning "she does everything with her hands."
Ex1.5: Touko says (in #5) that when she is killed her soul is implanted into the clone (puppet).

Alright, granted, it takes a long time to make the puppets. I'll give you that. But what stops her from making more than one? As long as she has at least one clone alive, she can't die. As long as she can't die, she can make more clones puppets. Thus, she is almost invincible.

What part of this not make sense to you? Why would Touko not have at least 3 clones made for her, if her life depended on it? Even if it takes years to make them, wouldn't you do it if it guaranteed that you wouldn't die?

Ketuekigami said:
EX 2: and you wond know this if you played Tsukihime. quote from Arcueid. "you can kill anything as long as it exists, armaments or magical enhancements dont matter for you". Shikis (both of them) can "kill anything as long as it exists. that includes magic (as shown in KnK #3 when Shiki "killed" Fuginos ability) and living things.

Alright. So she can kill anything. I get that. But I still think it's absolutely ridiculous. If she can kill things as abstract as "appendicitis," what stops her from killing, say... "time"? Or "electricity"?

There has to be a limit somewhere. Could Shiki kill heat? Or kill the darkness? It just doesn't make sense... there's nothing to kill.

Feb 3, 2009 8:07 PM

#122

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Some of the questions your asking have never been answered since there has been no need to answer them so if i am im only going by Type-Moon logic (and there is such a thing). But I dont think you remember anything from Tsukihime otherwise you wouldn't be asking and all of the questions about her eyes and if you played FSN all of your questions about "magic" that your asking would be clear.

i would say she doesnt have multiple because for one, she said she made "a" clone a long time ago. if she made more then one she would have worded it differently, and she has to replicate her power in that clone. As shown in FSN by Rin when using magic of that caliber to put magic into objects it takes time. it has to be done little by little and since Touko doesnt specialize in that kind of magic like Rin does it would take all the longer. The main issue is that replicating her power is not something she can casually do over and over again, its advanced sorcery by Type-Moon standards and isnt easily by any means. If she were to make multiple bodies in a short period of time they would be significantly weaker then her current self.

And even if she is invincible, she isnt a powerful magi when it comes to fighting by any means so counting on here "invincibility" wont do much in a fight against skilled magi like Araya.

Thats because it has to be at least be able to be understood by the human brain. Its explained in Tsukihime that there eyes just open up unused pathways (magic circuits) in the brain that allow them to see what normal humans cant, but things with no form like Time, heat, or darkness arent able to be seen through the human brain. If she even tried to kill certain things that are way beyond her understanding she would fry her brain (which is also explained in Tsukihime) and turn into a vegetable. The limit on what she can kill all comes down to "human understanding" (in the Type-Moon world).

And its not anymore ridiculous then some of the powers found in other anime so if you want to complain about the level of what they can do go complain about other anime as well.

But seriously, this is too much work explaining Type-Moon logic to you so im out. If you seriously want these questions answered play FSN, replay Tsukihime, and read KnK because these are all questions that you are thinking way to much about and should in no way lessen the experience of the movie.

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Feb 3, 2009 8:13 PM

#123

gioss

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I agree. This is more Type-Moon logic. It's not something you can just explain. You'll have to see it yourself.

Feb 3, 2009 8:17 PM

#124

Massaki

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Or, you can go the easy (hard?) way out and read all the terms used in the Nasuverse that consists of Fate/Stay Night, Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai.

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~typemoon/

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/TYPE-MOON_Wiki

http://nrvnqsr.proboards20.com/index.cgi

There are other places, but these two usually do the job.

Edit: Couldn't really forget about Beast's Lair.

MassakiFeb 3, 2009 8:20 PM

➲ 🅰🅽🅸🅼🅴 🅻🅸🆂🆃

【&】

➲ 🅼🅰🅽🅶🅰 🅻🅸🆂🆃

➲ 🆃🆆🅸🆃🆃🅴🆁

Feb 3, 2009 8:20 PM

#125

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Sep 2007

2551

Ketuekigami said:
Thats because it has to be at least be able to be understood by the human brain. Its explained in Tsukihime that there eyes just open up unused pathways (magic circuits) in the brain that allow them to see what normal humans cant, but things with no form like Time, heat, or darkness arent able to be seen through the human brain. If she even tried to kill certain things that are way beyond her understanding she would fry her brain (which is also explained in Tsukihime) and turn into a vegetable. The limit on what she can kill all comes down to "human understanding" (in the Type-Moon world).

Much better. That makes her ability less broken. It doesn't change the fact that she managed to kill appendicitis with a knife (which is laughable, any way you look at it), but I'm willing to overlook that fact.

Ketuekigami said:
But seriously, this is too much work explaining Type-Moon logic to you so im out. If you seriously want these questions answered play FSN, replay Tsukihime, and read KnK because these are all questions that you are thinking way to much about and should in no way lessen the experience of the movie.

More importantly, why should I have to play through everything Type-Moon has ever done in order to understand the logic of the movie? That itself is a flaw. It would be like if I were reading Shakespeare, and they made references to totally unrelated things in plays I might not have read. Like I'm reading Hamlet, and suddenly there's a scene where they go on about how tragic Juliet's death was.

Feb 3, 2009 8:20 PM

#126

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Dec 2007

6641

Drengot said:
I agree. This is more Type-Moon logic. It's not something you can just explain. You'll have to see it yourself.

Yes, this has gotten to the point wher it has nothing to do with the movie and everything to do with Type-Moon.

Massaki said:
Or, you can go the easy (hard?) way out and read all the terms used in the Nasuverse that consists of Fate/Stay Night, Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai.

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~typemoon/

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/TYPE-MOON_Wiki

There are other places, but these two usually do the job.

lol thats what i before i played FSN... but i did it for fun.

naikou said:

More importantly, why should I have to play through everything Type-Moon has ever done in order to understand the logic of the movie? That itself is a flaw. It would be like if I were reading Shakespeare, and they made references to totally unrelated things in plays I might not have read. Like I'm reading Hamlet, and suddenly there's a scene where they go on about how tragic Juliet's death was.

like i said...

Ketuekigami said:

these are all questions that you are thinking way to much about and should in no way lessen the experience of the movie.

This has nothing to do with the movie anymore. its gotten to the point of Type-Moon in general since your asking questions that never even appeared in the movie but are your or questions... like "why doesnt Touka make infinite clones?" that has nothing to do with the overall story.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 8:27 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 8:31 PM

#127

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Sep 2007

2551

Ketuekigami said:
This has nothing to do with the movie anymore. its gotten to the point of Type-Moon in general since your asking questions that never even appeared in the movie but are your or questions... like "why doesnt Touka make infinite clones?" that has nothing to do with the overall story.

It's not directly connected to the story, but if I know that the characters can just come back from the dead, I'm certainly not going to feel any of the pressure I'm supposed to feel when they get into trouble. Which was my original point.

Feb 3, 2009 8:46 PM

#128

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Dec 2007

6641

naikou said:

Then let me answer your original question as someone with enough Type-Moon knowledge to answer. Even if Touka can make 1 new body every time she dies she wouldnt be able to do it for Shiki and Kouktou simply on the fact that neither of them have the knowledge or ability to move their soul after death and Touka cant replicate Shiki's eyes. Also if Touka has any spare bodies like the 1 she used in the movie she most likely only has 1 spare body at any given time because it is too much work to make them.

So in short.. ya, Touka has a partial immortality but seeing as there are ways to kill the soul as well as the body in Type-Moon (Shiki Tohno's eyes and Seventh Holy Scriptures can do it) it is no where near perfect. And to add for the final time, it would be impossible for Shiki or Kouktou to use spare bodies for the reasons i provided.

Happy, Shiki and Kouktou cannot come back to life by using clones. this is most likely the clearest answer you are gonna get from me and most likely anyone else. And if you say its invalid because i have no proof then all i can say is that all the proof for this is in the FSN game and if you want it go play for your self.

KetuekigamiFeb 3, 2009 8:49 PM

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Feb 3, 2009 8:56 PM

#129

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Sep 2007

2551

I'll buy that. Shiki and Kokutou aren't immortal, then. And Touka is only in trouble if someone comes after her with a soul-killing abillity. Let's hope someone in the next few movies can do that, or it's going to be pretty dull.

Feb 3, 2009 9:00 PM

#130