| This is a board for discussing all things Puella Magi Madoka Magica, otherwise known as Mahou Shoujo Faust. Feel free to post nay theories and questions relating to this winter 2011 series by SHAFT, Akiyuki Shinbou and Urobuchi Gen here. You can also discuss theories found here and here, if you wish. |
Rosa_FOEtidaFeb 16, 2011 11:02 AM
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| Okay, riddle me this; How is this series any different than the other loli shows designed to appeal to filthy Japanese perverts that want to defile a "pure" 8 year old girl? |
| I think it's supposed to be a dark and edgy take on the typical Mahou Shoujo genre. With roots in the legend of Faustus. Think, mind you, because the first two episodes have played the genre straight, and I am hoping for my expectations to be subverted any minute now. |
YoungVagabond said: Okay, riddle me this; How is this series any different than the other loli shows designed to appeal to filthy Japanese perverts that want to defile a "pure" 8 year old girl? No eight year olds, no sexualization, no lolis, it's about deals with the devil, it is explicitly set out to deconstruct the mahô syôzyo genre. But hey, let me not discourage your prejudice. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: No eight year olds, no sexualization, no lolis, Really? The cover art shows a loli (who by definition looks like a little girl) in a sexy, skin-tight outfit. How is that not sexualization of a physically immature female? Kaiserpingvin said: it's about deals with the devil, it is explicitly set out to deconstruct the mahô syôzyo genre Well, I like deconstructions and subversions of a genre, but is it even necessary in this case? I mean, is there anyone seriously arguing "yeah, maho shoujo is a brilliant and thoughtful genre of anime"?! It's like making fun of Twilight. You don't need a parody; most semi-intelligent people realize how dumb it is already. |
YoungVagabond said: Really? The cover art shows a loli (who by definition looks like a little girl) in a sexy, skin-tight outfit. How is that not sexualization of a physically immature female? She's fourteen. While young, it is not loli. Compared to other works of the genre the transformations do not show any flesh at all; the clothes just pop up, I cannot recall a single panty-shot and so on. It really avoids the fetishizing elements common to the genre as much as it can without being weird, I find. Akiyuki can do some rather awful loli-shitfests if he wants to, this ain't it. YoungVagabond said: Well, I like deconstructions and subversions of a genre, but is it even necessary in this case? I mean, is there anyone seriously arguing "yeah, maho shoujo is a brilliant and thoughtful genre of anime"?! It's like making fun of Twilight. You don't need a parody; most semi-intelligent people realize how dumb it is already. It's not really about waking thoughts (not that it hasn't). But art is never necessary. And genres can't be thoughtful or not, that's for individual works to be. Aaaand anime has a tradition of deconstructing many genres with quite preposterous common assumptions (NGE, Utena). It is quite rare for anime to reflect on many things relevant in real life, but very common for them to be self-discursive, being about tropes and clichés and works within the medium. Madoka fits into that slot handily. Incidentally, while I think you are awfully wrong in your first impression of this show, I am very certain you will nonetheless for different reasons dislike it quite heavily if you do watch it, so I would not recommend it. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: YoungVagabond said: Really? The cover art shows a loli (who by definition looks like a little girl) in a sexy, skin-tight outfit. How is that not sexualization of a physically immature female? She's fourteen. While young, it is not loli. I wasn't talking about what the anime claims her age is; I'm saying what she looks like physically. (And are you arguing that sexualization of a 14 year old is fine?) In an animation, you can have a baby and claim they're 60 years old. In terms of their actual physical looks and physical maturity, those girls are 8 years old. Kaiserpingvin said: Compared to other works of the genre the transformations do not show any flesh at all; the clothes just pop up, I cannot recall a single panty-shot and so on. It really avoids the fetishizing elements common to the genre as much as it can without being weird, I find. So in essence, you're arguing that since it sexualizes less, it's no big deal? But art is never necessary. And genres can't be thoughtful or not, that's for individual works to be. Aaaand anime has a tradition of deconstructing many genres with quite preposterous common assumptions (NGE, Utena). It is quite rare for anime to reflect on many things relevant in real life, but very common for them to be self-discursive, being about tropes and clichés and works within the medium. Madoka fits into that slot handily. As I wrote above, there is nothing wrong with parody or deconstruction. I enjoy it a lot. But you have to choose a genre that is at least moderately worthwhile, and not utterly lame. Making fun of mahou shoujo is like mocking Roadrunner cartoons for not being physically plausible. Yeah, we know. KaiserPingvin said: I am very certain you will nonetheless for different reasons dislike it quite heavily if you do watch it, so I would not recommend it. Such as? |
YoungVagabondFeb 17, 2011 12:38 PM
| I don't think girls in tigh clothes are sexualization. That's in the mind of people. If we exaggerate that, every ballet with children, olympic gymnastics competition and such would be shows for pedophiles. Hell, since sailor uniforms are considered hot in Japan (and other places) every anime in a school setting would be sexualizing girls... What is important is: there are no situations that appeal to the girl's sexualities. It's not the clothes, is the context that matters. Because if not, ghibli would be the number one children "sexualizer" with the little kids taking bath naked and stuff. Also, the stuff about the age is also on the viewer mind. You just can't tell the age of cartoon characters. Madoka's mother's face is exactly the same as Madoka's. Oh, she has bigger boobs, but so does one of Madoka's friends. If they all wore the same clothes and had the same hair color, you wouldn't even be able to tell them apart... In fact, even Madoka's father has the same face... And well, there is no such thing as a worthy or worthless genre. Every genre and theme can give birth to great anime if well done. And I've already seen many hilarious mahou shoujo parodies. Comedy doesn't forgive anyone or anything. |
YoungVagabond said: I wasn't talking about what the anime claims her age is; I'm saying what she looks like physically. (And are you arguing that sexualization of a 14 year old is fine?) In an animation, you can have a baby and claim they're 60 years old. In terms of their actual physical looks and physical maturity, those girls are 8 years old. How can you even tell? [Huge image follows] This is pretty much the proportions they have in the show. Which characteristic would one use to divine their ages? The head:body ratio? But everyone in the show has pretty much the same ratio. Most cartoons have skew'd head:body ratios. (Donald Duck has far too big a head for a thirty-something. Is he secretly a sexualized young boy? After all, he walks around with no pants.) People do not usually perceive age from cartoons' head:body ratios as they do from real people; we allow the heads to be quite a big bigger per age-group. You would never find an eight-year old with this large heads, in any case. Is it the leg:body ratio? That's a tricky one as their legs are really larger than they should be, which doesn't map to any age group at all. Their proportions are really not like any developmental stage of any ordinary human. Is it the boobs? But adult women can have flat chests too. So it can't be them. Mami even has rather generous bosoms. Is it their rosy cheeks? Well, maybe that. Their looks aren't properly human, because cartoons are usually not wholly depicting; they also work a lot by symbolism and air. Which in turn works as our brains generally do not perceive things in a realistic manner, it has quite the impressionist view. And I do not care about sexualization of, well, anything. People can masturbate and lust after whatever they please. It harms no one, and shouldn't really concern anyone. YoungVagabond said: So in essence, you're arguing that since it sexualizes less, it's no big deal? They have pretty frilly clothes. Normally, that'd be completely innocent. But some people fap to it. It's like how Fist of the North Star sexualizes musuclar men. It goes with the genre, it emphasizes secondary sexual characteristics, it's not the point, it turns some people on. So it goes. YoungVagabond said: Such as? It has cute girls. It, in fact, has nothing but a heap of cute girls, one pretty boy, one little kid, and one very effeminate man. And while the main cast is capable of impressive acts of bravery and ass-kicking, they aren't 'manly' in the least. You seem to detest the magical girl genre; and while PMMM subverts it to hell and back, it's still a magical girl show. The tropes remain, they are just backwards. Does not strike me as something in your tastes. But what do I know? |
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Kaiserpingvin said: YoungVagabond said: I wasn't talking about what the anime claims her age is; I'm saying what she looks like physically. (And are you arguing that sexualization of a 14 year old is fine?) In an animation, you can have a baby and claim they're 60 years old. In terms of their actual physical looks and physical maturity, those girls are 8 years old. How can you even tell? [Huge image follows] Oh, come on! It's not a single trait; it's the whole package; skinny, narrow, tiny bodies, childish faces, flat chests, etc. You're rationalizing every individual trait, but you might as well be explaining why it's "impossible" to tell the difference between a cat and a dog. (Something that computers, judging only by separate elements, frequently fail at...but humans don't) Kaiserpingvin said: And I do not care about sexualization of, well, anything. People can masturbate and lust after whatever they please. It harms no one, and shouldn't really concern anyone. I used to feel this way too, but it's just not true. Lusting after young, prepubescent bodies is fucking awful, and shouldn't be encouraged. I watch some of the most depraved shit imaginable, in terms of both porn and violence, but even for me, there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, and fuck up the people watching it. Sexual depictions of young girls is one of the very few things that falls under this category. Kaiserpingvin said: It's like how Fist of the North Star sexualizes musuclar men. It goes with the genre, it emphasizes secondary sexual characteristics, it's not the point, it turns some people on. So it goes. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with sexualizing adult males. Or adult women. But not children. Kaiserpingvin said: It has cute girls. It, in fact, has nothing but a heap of cute girls, one pretty boy, one little kid, and one very effeminate man. And while the main cast is capable of impressive acts of bravery and ass-kicking, they aren't 'manly' in the least. None of those are elements in a show, manga, or movie that I would mind, by themselves. Kaiserpingvin said: You seem to detest the magical girl genre; and while PMMM subverts it to hell and back, it's still a magical girl show. The tropes remain, they are just backwards. I've hardly watched the genre; but oddly, it seems even you agree that it's mostly bad? |
| I don't know where you live, but here not all 14 year old girls have big breasts or huge hips. In fact, most are still developing. Also, here 8 year old girls usually have no sign of boobs, and all the girls in Madoka have. About the faces, just read my previous post. About the bodies, is the same thing. The adult women also have the same type of body. It's the chara design. Madoka has no sexualization of the girls. Already explained why in my previous post. About encouraging stuff, rape, murder, theft and so on are common in works of art. All are stuff that shouldn't be encouraged. If we start censoring stuff because of that... |
m4rc0 said: I don't know where you live, but here not all 14 year old girls have big breasts or huge hips. In fact, most are still developing. I have never known any 14 year-old girls that look as infantile in terms of body and facial features as the ones on that show. [QUOTE-m4rco] Also, here 8 year old girls usually have no sign of boobs, and all the girls in Madoka have. Fine, they look like 10-11 year olds. Does that change anything? The main point is the same; they're woefully underage. m4rco said: Madoka has no sexualization of the girls. Already explained why in my previous post. Yeah, I read that. My statement is more about the overall genre, and a judgment based on the screenshots. If you think this particular series is better on that account, you might well be right, but they're still hitting that same general area. m4rco said: About encouraging stuff, rape, murder, theft and so on are common in works of art. All are stuff that shouldn't be encouraged. If we start censoring stuff because of that... I'm not saying anything should be censored, least of all a mahou shoujo. I'm just saying that I find it personally distasteful for those reasons. In fact, it's not even an intellectual reaction; I just have a very negative, visceral, creeped-out reaction to that pedo stuff. |
| Well, I'd rather not derail this thread with the old "is loli bad" debate. It'd be perfectly good material for another thread though, if anyone feels the desire to continue. YoungVagabond said: I've hardly watched the genre; but oddly, it seems even you agree that it's mostly bad? More or less, I do not usually tend to think about art in terms of genre. But insofar I do, magical girls do not hold my interest. Not that I have seen much from it either. Spoilers henceforth. naikou in the comments said: Why has no one brought up the possibility of "I wish for all Witches to be destroyed"? Or, "I wish to be immortal"? Or, "I wish for the power to do whatever I want"? Or the classic: "I wish for an unlimited number of wishes?" It's pretty obvious that Madoka is going to wish Mami back to life, but why not, "I wish for the ability to raise anyone from the dead, henceforth."? Writing seems to be a bit sketchy on that point. Thing is, our resident Cute Mascot wants magical girls and witches fighting. So even if he could make true any wish, he would never make true a wish which rendered his whole pseudo-pyramdidal scheme impossible. Or so I thought back in episode three. As for reviving people, first of all, Madoka is a wuss, secondly, |
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Kaiser said: If that is the case, then that is great! Going to have to keep watching.Thing is, our resident Cute Mascot wants magical girls and witches fighting. So even if he could make true any wish, he would never make true a wish which rendered his whole pseudo-pyramdidal scheme impossible. But even still. I wish Madoka and Sayaka had at least brought up the possibility of haxxor wishes and had Kyuubey shoot them down with a "That's against the rules" or something. So far the most extravagant wishes suggested have been "1 billion dollars" and "a wonderful boyfriend", which both seem woefully inadequate in terms of wishes. Surely even 14-year-olds have better imaginations than that! |
| @Naikou: On the subject of wishes, here's what a character that you haven't seen yet as you are not far enough has to say. This is from episode 7, by the way, so if you hate even minor spoilers, then don't read. |
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| "I have never known any 14 year-old girls that look as infantile in terms of body and facial features as the ones on that show. " As I also wrote earlier, that's the art style. Madoka's dad has that same facial and body features, but no boobs. And well, as I wrote in the club comments, Mahou Shoujo is a genre normally targeted to small children. And girls. So it's pretty hard for one of those shows to appeal to older fans. Especially male fans. Madoka is targeted to an older audience. I know that would break the anime, but it would be nice to have genre savvy girls asking all the kinds of questions. I mean, they could've asked Kyubei to give them every aspect of the contract on paper so that they could know evetything before signing it. About episode 8 I didn't consider Madoka a deconstruction of the genre. Sure, it was a darker apporach, but that wasn't enough. Then came the zombie stuff, and it got a bit closer, but not there yet. But while the inQBator stuff was kinda pretictable, it made the anime a genre deconstruction. In fact, I was hoping QB would remain as an amoral character instead of the evil schemer I thought he could be. It would be more interesting. What I wasn't expecting was the time travel stuff. I thought Homura was a teleporter. |
| So, we know why QB does contracts. But that whole I can't understand why you get mad since I have no emotions thing was crap. If he lives in a society he knows what contracts are and knows that not informing the other party of all aspects is harmful. Also, while it could be said that what happens to the mahou shoujo is fair, the same can't be said to the humans the witches and familiars kill. Not having emotions doesn't mean he doesn't have self-preservation instincts. And since he has, he can understand how what he does is harmful to the normal humans. The stuff about entropy was wrong, at least considering the translation. And putting that in the show was a bad move. Now it makes people think of physics and other stuff that have nothing to do with the plot. They could've just made QB a member of a race from a supenatural world that was dying and needed the energy from the girls. It could also say that after humans evolved and got mental powers or stuff like that, we could live there too and it would be nice if it was still there. Also, fighting witches is not productive, since many girls die and the ones that doesn't don't become witches soon. They should just dispose of the witches they created and le the girls survive longer, so they could get more energy. In fact, the witches not only kill other potential girls, but they spawn familiars who do the same... And since homura could kill witches with conventiona weaponry, there is no reason for QB not to do it. |
| So, we know why QB does contracts. But that whole I can't understand why you get mad since I have no emotions thing was crap. If he lives in a society he knows what contracts are and knows that not informing the other party of all aspects is harmful. Also, while it could be said that what happens to the mahou shoujo is fair, the same can't be said to the humans the witches and familiars kill. Not having emotions doesn't mean he doesn't have self-preservation instincts. And since he has, he can understand how what he does is harmful to the normal humans. The stuff about entropy was wrong, at least considering the translation. And putting that in the show was a bad move. Now it makes people think of physics and other stuff that have nothing to do with the plot. They could've just made QB a member of a race from a supenatural world that was dying and needed the energy from the girls. It could also say that after humans evolved and got mental powers or stuff like that, we could live there too and it would be nice if it was still there. Also, fighting witches is not productive, since many girls die and the ones that doesn't don't become witches soon. They should just dispose of the witches they created and le the girls survive longer, so they could get more energy. In fact, the witches not only kill other potential girls, but they spawn familiars who do the same... And since homura could kill witches with conventiona weaponry, there is no reason for QB not to do it. |
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