| https://twitter.com/search?q=%23%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%8E%D0%BB%D1%8C&src=trend_click&vertical=trends Russian TERF's even is taking place on Russian Twitter now, and I sincerely cannot understand why most of the published illustrations are fan art with canonically straight characters. For example, Usagi from Sailor Moon, or female characters from The Lord of the Rings. Many do not even try to hide the fact that this is shipping fan art, but still position it as illustrations for an event dedicated to the representation of lesbian women. I don't understand at all how it works. Maybe I don't understand something, but only it seems strange to me when an illustration with a straight girl who has a canon boyfriend is used for the caption "lesbians don't like dicks"? |
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| not sure about the LoTR stuff, but Usagi might be straight. However Haruka and Michiru from sailor moon are lesbian af. Sailor Uranus Sailor Neptune. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
hazarddex said: not sure about the LoTR stuff, but Usagi might be straight. However Haruka and Michiru from sailor moon are lesbian af. Sailor Uranus Sailor Neptune. Then why didn't they use them instead of Usagi? Also, the two LOTR girls mentioned were canonically happily married to male characters and had little or no interaction with each other in the plot. |
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| Those are the pronoun in bio freaks you should avoid. Block anyone with pronouns in bio on twitter and it will be 100x more enjoyable. |
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Kayle_x_Morgana said: Those are the pronoun in bio freaks you should avoid. Block anyone with pronouns in bio on twitter and it will be 100x more enjoyable. You shouldn't use social media in the first place tbh. |
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RobertBobert said: hazarddex said: not sure about the LoTR stuff, but Usagi might be straight. However Haruka and Michiru from sailor moon are lesbian af. Sailor Uranus Sailor Neptune. Then why didn't they use them instead of Usagi? Also, the two LOTR girls mentioned were canonically happily married to male characters and had little or no interaction with each other in the plot. sounds like crack shipping which is a universal thing and nothing new. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
| I'm pretty sure that it is never defined in the anime if Usagi is exclusively into guys. Anyways, just let people play with their head canons, for some one that lives complaining about SJWs and cancel culture you are awfully close to the become art and fun police. |
| heh. |
| Typical shippers as usual showing they aren't using their brain that much. It's Twitter though, it should be expected. |
| "Well, she's flatter than a pancake" -Mimi Alpacas "Woof" -Tobiichi Origami "Are you trying to turn the dormitory into a strip club!?! -Atena Saotome |
Bob-o-Dominador said: I'm pretty sure that it is never defined in the anime if Usagi is exclusively into guys. Anyways, just let people play with their head canons, for some one that lives complaining about cancel culture you are awfully close to the art police. Even if you like to speculate on the basis of "it was not directly said, then it was not", do you think that a character whose straight love story was one of the main focuses of the story is not the best example for such a signature? After all, the problem is not that someone fantasizes about the sexuality of the characters on Twitter, the problem is that for some reason this is used for "serious" queer events. I doubt the fanon excuse would work if I used the illustration of Touko and Yuu for a blowjobs day. |
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| Just because it's more recognized characters and not really any thought is put into it beyond aesthetics. |
RobertBobert said: Bob-o-Dominador said: I'm pretty sure that it is never defined in the anime if Usagi is exclusively into guys. Anyways, just let people play with their head canons, for some one that lives complaining about cancel culture you are awfully close to the art police. Even if you like to speculate on the basis of "it was not directly said, then it was not", do you think that a character whose straight love story was one of the main focuses of the story is not the best example for such a signature? After all, the problem is not that someone fantasizes about the sexuality of the characters on Twitter, the problem is that for some reason this is used for "serious" queer events. I doubt the fanon excuse would work if I used the illustration of Touko and Yuu for a blowjobs day. Literally who cares, it is so serious that you even wrote "Serious" instead of serious. Also, we know you and you are clearly concern trolling, but even if an honest person asked it: Let the people doing the events deal with it, people are clearly having fun and it is the events problem to chose if they want to prioritize fun or spread awareness of gayer media, and none of those choices are inherently better than the other. |
| heh. |
| They're not respecting the sexual identity of the character. How dare they |
| Uhhhhh....is OP asking why people like to ship characters and make them gay? Bro....this is not new. You know Love Live? All the girls (I think) are straight. And yet a ton of the doujins have them as lesbians. Especially Nico and Maki...and goddamn are those doujins fucking GREAT! No one cares about "canon". |
| People, are you serious? Where in my message am I complaining about the fact of shipping? I wrote somewhere "why do they ship characters if they are straight"? Why are you discussing this? Bob-o-Dominador said: RobertBobert said: Even if you like to speculate on the basis of "it was not directly said, then it was not", do you think that a character whose straight love story was one of the main focuses of the story is not the best example for such a signature? After all, the problem is not that someone fantasizes about the sexuality of the characters on Twitter, the problem is that for some reason this is used for "serious" queer events. I doubt the fanon excuse would work if I used the illustration of Touko and Yuu for a blowjobs day. Literally who cares, it is so serious that you even wrote "Serious" instead of serious. Also, we know you and you are clearly concern trolling, but even if an honest person asked it: Let the people doing the events deal with it, people are clearly having fun and it is the events problem to chose if they want to prioritize fun or spread awareness of gayer media, and none of those choices are inherently better than the other. Then why does such a discourse as representation exist in the media at all, if people can just take any straight characters, draw gay content with them and use it for any gay-related topics? |
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| Because lgbt characters rarely exist in anime, so people like to create head canons for characters that are portrayed as hetero. Most of these come from the fact that a lot of hetero ships are simply forced in for the sake of it, some of these characters would never/rarely interact with the opposite gender and suddenly at the end they are married to that person. The relationship development between the two same gender characters is much better, so it makes sense they get shipped. Hence "fan ships". I do not really understand the question or the concern here. |
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| The fact you ALWAYS make this kind of question is suspicious, much more when you always make this kind of question towards one direction, but characters are much more than their canon story, specially when they are recognizable enough to become cultural references. Using Usagi probably has more to do with the fact Usagi is pretty well-known and represents a staple of -perceivedly, I haven't watched it- LGBTI+ inclusive and feminist-friendly anime. Kayle_x_Morgana said: Those are the pronoun in bio freaks you should avoid. Block anyone with pronouns in bio on twitter and it will be 100x more enjoyable. Not really, apparently the ones the OP is talking about are TERFs. |
Judevin said: Because lgbt characters rarely exist in anime, so people like to create head canons for characters that are portrayed as hetero. Most of these come from the fact that a lot of hetero ships are simply forced in for the sake of it, some of these characters would never/rarely interact with the opposite gender and suddenly at the end they are married to that person. The relationship development between the two same gender characters is much better, so it makes sense they get shipped. Hence "fan ships". I do not really understand the question or the concern here. Are you seriously trying to say now that Sailor Moon or Evangelion had poor ship development and the characters suddenly got married? What? And since most people have extremely selective attention here, I reiterate that it's not the ships themselves, but how they are referenced. jal90 said: The fact you ALWAYS make this kind of question is suspicious, much more when you always make this kind of question towards one direction, but characters are much more than their canon story, specially when they are recognizable enough to become cultural references. Using Usagi probably has more to do with the fact Usagi is pretty well-known and represents a staple of -perceivedly, I haven't watched it- LGBTI+ inclusive and feminist-friendly anime. Kayle_x_Morgana said: Those are the pronoun in bio freaks you should avoid. Block anyone with pronouns in bio on twitter and it will be 100x more enjoyable. Not really, apparently the ones the OP is talking about are TERFs. I would be glad if you can share 2-3 more of my topics about radical feminists and queer shipping on Twitter. |
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| I suggest the new slur to throw at feminists be AAECMETERFs (alien-and-animal-exclusionary, cismale-exclusionary, trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Just to make sure we do not offend the majority of feminists who are usually willing to fight for the rights of cismales, other species, and trans people and focus on the small number of closed-minded BIGOTS who have the temerity to stand solely for women's rights! The real question is: "Why do people use Twitter"? |
RobertBobert said: I never mentioned Sailor Moon or NGE in my reply though...Judevin said: Because lgbt characters rarely exist in anime, so people like to create head canons for characters that are portrayed as hetero. Most of these come from the fact that a lot of hetero ships are simply forced in for the sake of it, some of these characters would never/rarely interact with the opposite gender and suddenly at the end they are married to that person. The relationship development between the two same gender characters is much better, so it makes sense they get shipped. Hence "fan ships". I do not really understand the question or the concern here. Are you seriously trying to say now that Sailor Moon or Evangelion had poor ship development and the characters suddenly got married? What? And since most people have extremely selective attention here, I reiterate that it's not the ships themselves, but how they are referenced. I am just making a general statement for why those ships exist. And you talk like they only exist on twitter, but there are literal doujinshi written by Japanese creators for BL/GL ships, so it's not really a twitter thing although I guess it's more prominent there since it's a social media platform. And can you elaborate on the "how they are referenced" part, because if most people are having problem with "selective attention" then maybe it's the way you worded it. Because I've read your paragraph thrice now, and it just feels like you have an issue with why BL/GL ships for canonically straight characters exist. And that is what most people in the replies also concluded given their replies. |
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149597871 said: I suggest the new slur to throw at feminists be AAECMETERFs (alien-and-animal-exclusionary, cismale-exclusionary, trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Just to make sure we do not offend the majority of feminists who are usually willing to fight for the rights of cismales, other species, and trans people and focus on the small number of closed-minded BIGOTS who have the temerity to stand solely for women's rights! The real question is: "Why do people use Twitter"? Terf is not a slur, it's just a descriptor made by four words that kind of have a clear meaning. Your example wouldn't be a slur either. |
jal90 said: 149597871 said: I suggest the new slur to throw at feminists be AAECMETERFs (alien-and-animal-exclusionary, cismale-exclusionary, trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Just to make sure we do not offend the majority of feminists who are usually willing to fight for the rights of cismales, other species, and trans people and focus on the small number of closed-minded BIGOTS who have the temerity to stand solely for women's rights! The real question is: "Why do people use Twitter"? Terf is not a slur, it's just a descriptor made by four words that kind of have a clear meaning. Your example wouldn't be a slur either. "descriptor" So, just because it "describes," it could not be possibly used to offend or criticize someone? I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but half of the well-known ethnic and homophobic slurs fall into that category. |
| Don’t care about them those degenerate will just use their skills to fulfill their fantasies. It’s Artistic license. You can also draw some gay characters as straights , change ethnicity also can make them aliens . I don’t think characters are copyrighted after all or are they. |
Tristar_ShinobiJul 2, 2021 4:54 AM
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| Usagi is straight up bisexual my dude... I guess it's along the same lines as backwashing a character. An identity under-represented is gaining visibility. Also most characters don't have confirmed sexualities so it's not like it's hurting anyone |
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149597871 said: jal90 said: Terf is not a slur, it's just a descriptor made by four words that kind of have a clear meaning. Your example wouldn't be a slur either. "descriptor" So, just because it "describes," it could not be possibly used to offend or criticize someone? I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but half of the well-known ethnic and homophobic slurs fall into that category. It's used to offend, yes. But so is "feminist" in certain circles and we don't call "feminist" a slur. And it's not like the word is anti-feminist slang, it's just an acronym that describes a type of feminism, one that defines itself as radical and one that aims to exclude the trans cause or at least separate it from the feminist discourse. Of course those of us who are against this type of feminism have a pretty terrible opinion of the term, but this whole "terf is a slur" seems to me a petty attempt to mask disagreement as hate speech. |
jal90 said: 149597871 said: "descriptor" So, just because it "describes," it could not be possibly used to offend or criticize someone? I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but half of the well-known ethnic and homophobic slurs fall into that category. It's used to offend, yes. But so is "feminist" in certain circles and we don't call "feminist" a slur. And it's not like the word is anti-feminist slang, it's just an acronym that describes a type of feminism, one that defines itself as radical and one that aims to exclude the trans cause or at least separate it from the feminist discourse. Of course those of us who are against this type of feminism have a pretty terrible opinion of the term, but this whole "terf is a slur" seems to me a petty attempt to mask disagreement as hate speech. The thing is that since its very inception, feminism was not meant to be "trans/queer-inclusionary." TERF is most certainly a slur made by hyperwoke activists to erode the reputation of feminists who still stick to the fundamental ideas of the movement. The majority of feminists and the vast majority of radical feminists are indeed trans-exclusionary, but for whatever reason, we call them "TERFs" as if it is some perverted deviation from the original movement. On the other hand, the small minority of trans-inclusionary pseudo-feminists that were not even a thing a decade ago are now merely called "feminists." That is an absolute joke. It should be the other way around. TIRFs... |
149597871 said: jal90 said: It's used to offend, yes. But so is "feminist" in certain circles and we don't call "feminist" a slur. And it's not like the word is anti-feminist slang, it's just an acronym that describes a type of feminism, one that defines itself as radical and one that aims to exclude the trans cause or at least separate it from the feminist discourse. Of course those of us who are against this type of feminism have a pretty terrible opinion of the term, but this whole "terf is a slur" seems to me a petty attempt to mask disagreement as hate speech. The thing is that since its very inception, feminism was not meant to be "trans/queer-inclusionary." TERF is most certainly a slur made by hyperwoke activists to erode the reputation of feminists who still stick to the fundamental ideas of the movement. The majority of feminists and the vast majority of radical feminists are indeed trans-exclusionary, but for whatever reason, we call them "TERFs" as if it is some perverted deviation from the original movement. On the other hand, the small minority of trans-inclusionary pseudo-feminists that were not even a thing a decade ago are now merely called "feminists." That is an absolute joke. It should be the other way around. TIRFs... The original movement has shifted a lot over the decades and these modern trans-exclusionary feminists are not in any way or form compatible with those early forms of feminism either. What "fundamental ideas of the movement" are you talking about? How far should we go? The 60s, when trans visibility began to take form in Western society? More than a few decades are missing, then. Whoever says that trans-exclusionary feminists aren't feminists is wrong, but they don't have the exclusivity of the term either. Not like I'm against using the word TIRFs anyway, but only if they stop complaining about an acronym that is an accurate descriptor of their ideas. Also, saying the word "woke" doesn't automatically make the other position irrational and bad faith is not an argument. |
jal90Jul 2, 2021 5:44 AM
jal90 said: 149597871 said: The thing is that since its very inception, feminism was not meant to be "trans/queer-inclusionary." TERF is most certainly a slur made by hyperwoke activists to erode the reputation of feminists who still stick to the fundamental ideas of the movement. The majority of feminists and the vast majority of radical feminists are indeed trans-exclusionary, but for whatever reason, we call them "TERFs" as if it is some perverted deviation from the original movement. On the other hand, the small minority of trans-inclusionary pseudo-feminists that were not even a thing a decade ago are now merely called "feminists." That is an absolute joke. It should be the other way around. TIRFs... The original movement has shifted a lot over the decades and these modern trans-exclusionary feminists are not in any way or form compatible with those early forms of feminism either. What "fundamental ideas of the movement" are you talking about? How far should we go? The 60s, when trans visibility began to take form in Western society? More than a few decades are missing, then. Whoever says that trans-exclusionary feminists aren't feminists is wrong, but they don't have the exclusivity of the term either. Also, saying the word "woke" doesn't automatically make the other position irrational. The fundamental idea is fighting for women's rights. Anything that goes beyond that needs a special term, not the other way around. Being "trans-inclusionary" is definitely a new addition. Being trans-exclusionary is the original version of feminism. So instead of calling people "TERFs" for merely being feminists, you can just call them... feminists. |
149597871 said: jal90 said: The original movement has shifted a lot over the decades and these modern trans-exclusionary feminists are not in any way or form compatible with those early forms of feminism either. What "fundamental ideas of the movement" are you talking about? How far should we go? The 60s, when trans visibility began to take form in Western society? More than a few decades are missing, then. Whoever says that trans-exclusionary feminists aren't feminists is wrong, but they don't have the exclusivity of the term either. Also, saying the word "woke" doesn't automatically make the other position irrational. The fundamental idea is fighting for women's rights. Anything that goes beyond that needs a special term, not the other way around. Being "trans-inclusionary" is definitely a new addition. Being trans-exclusionary is the original version of feminism. So instead of calling people "TERFs" for merely being feminists, you can just call them... feminists. I work under the basis that trans women are women, I don't know what you do with your own definition of the terms. |
| i don't know, it sort of just seems like crack-shipping or whatever it's called. i don't ever remember any sailor scouts sexuality besides haruka and michiru's ever being announced as canonical, so you can just interpret them how you'd like, i'd believe. |
jal90 said: 149597871 said: The fundamental idea is fighting for women's rights. Anything that goes beyond that needs a special term, not the other way around. Being "trans-inclusionary" is definitely a new addition. Being trans-exclusionary is the original version of feminism. So instead of calling people "TERFs" for merely being feminists, you can just call them... feminists. I work under the basis that trans women are women, I don't know what you do with your own definition of the terms. Transgender is an umbrella term, though. You cannot even define what a "transwoman" is without some fellow woke activist stabbing you in the back for not being inclusive enough. At this stage, the term "trans" includes cross-dressers or people who are not typically masculine/feminine. That does not seem like a productive way to fight for people's rights and organize a society. But sure, I mean, who am I to stop you. That is not what feminism was theoretically and historically about, however. |
| it's just art. they can use whatever characters they want to depict what they want. A question, who is even Usagi's pair? Mina, Naru? |
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cipheron said: Salty-GB said: Usagi is straight up bisexual my dude... I guess it's along the same lines as backwashing a character. An identity under-represented is gaining visibility. Also most characters don't have confirmed sexualities so it's not like it's hurting anyone Yeah, she basically falls in love with a trans character in the last season. Also, from Sailor Moon Crystal, which actually follows the manga more closely, here's Usagi getting tongue-kissed by a girl: So, are you a bisexual girl if she falls in love with a trans man? Do you understand what transphobic implication your statement has? And seriously, are you using Haruka as an example? A character who literally became a meme because of her androgynous appearance? Not to mention, Haruka was the one who kissed her. Do you become a lesbian if you are kissed by another woman? Seriously? Salty-GB said: Usagi is straight up bisexual my dude... I guess it's along the same lines as backwashing a character. An identity under-represented is gaining visibility. Also most characters don't have confirmed sexualities so it's not like it's hurting anyone Her bisexuality has never been confirmed outside the speculation of Western fans, but let's pretend it is. Does that still justify her being next to the signature "lesbians don't like dicks"? How well does a bisexual woman with an important male lover fit this thesis? |
RobertBobertJul 2, 2021 8:00 AM
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149597871 said: jal90 said: I work under the basis that trans women are women, I don't know what you do with your own definition of the terms. Transgender is an umbrella term, though. You cannot even define what a "transwoman" is without some fellow woke activist stabbing you in the back for not being inclusive enough. At this stage, the term "trans" includes cross-dressers or people who are not typically masculine/feminine. That does not seem like a productive way to fight for people's rights and organize a society. But sure, I mean, who am I to stop you. That is not what feminism was theoretically and historically about, however. I mean, my rule of thumb is including as women the people who identify as women, not crossdressers who identify as men, or people who are not stereotypically masculine/feminine but still see themselves as cis. I'm not here to tell people their gender. |
RobertBobert said: People, are you serious? Where in my message am I complaining about the fact of shipping? I wrote somewhere "why do they ship characters if they are straight"? Why are you discussing this? Bob-o-Dominador said: Literally who cares, it is so serious that you even wrote "Serious" instead of serious. Also, we know you and you are clearly concern trolling, but even if an honest person asked it: Let the people doing the events deal with it, people are clearly having fun and it is the events problem to chose if they want to prioritize fun or spread awareness of gayer media, and none of those choices are inherently better than the other. Then why does such a discourse as representation exist in the media at all, if people can just take any straight characters, draw gay content with them and use it for any gay-related topics? Because one of these are not like the other, there is a big diference between actually getting LGBT representation by a big IP and getting it by head cannons that only terminally online people will ever see and half that see don't even care because it is not cannon. |
| heh. |
RobertBobert said: Salty-GB said: Usagi is straight up bisexual my dude... I guess it's along the same lines as backwashing a character. An identity under-represented is gaining visibility. Also most characters don't have confirmed sexualities so it's not like it's hurting anyone Her bisexuality has never been confirmed outside the speculation of Western fans, but let's pretend it is. Does that still justify her being next to the signature "lesbians don't like dicks"? How well does a bisexual woman with an important male lover fit this thesis? I didn't see the TERF stuff. I just saw some cute pics of the girls from W.I.T.C.H being gay and assumed it was some wholesome shit goin down. Oops, my bad. My addition to this thread will be that TERFs suck, it is transphobic to deny trans people rights to bathrooms and sports, trans identities are valid and you don't owe anyone an explanation that you're trans but be safe pls. Trans women are women, trans men are men and NB folks are NB. Gender is performative and dumb. Also... While it's never audibly said that Usagi is bi, she shows clear female attraction. She falls for pretty much every girl that appears including almost all her team mates. Her relationship with Seiya is what it is and doesn't require a sexuality label slapped on either. |
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Bob-o-Dominador said: RobertBobert said: People, are you serious? Where in my message am I complaining about the fact of shipping? I wrote somewhere "why do they ship characters if they are straight"? Why are you discussing this? Then why does such a discourse as representation exist in the media at all, if people can just take any straight characters, draw gay content with them and use it for any gay-related topics? Because one of these are not like the other, there is a big diference between actually getting LGBT representation by a big IP and getting it by head cannons that only terminally online people will ever see and half that see don't even care because it is not cannon. So they use straight characters for their content and still demand gay characters, claiming they have no representation? Salty-GB said: RobertBobert said: Her bisexuality has never been confirmed outside the speculation of Western fans, but let's pretend it is. Does that still justify her being next to the signature "lesbians don't like dicks"? How well does a bisexual woman with an important male lover fit this thesis? I didn't see the TERF stuff. I just saw some cute pics of the girls from W.I.T.C.H being gay and assumed it was some wholesome shit goin down. Oops, my bad. My addition to this thread will be that TERFs suck, it is transphobic to deny trans people rights to bathrooms and sports, trans identities are valid and you don't owe anyone an explanation that you're trans but be safe pls. Trans women are women, trans men are men and NB folks are NB. Gender is performative and dumb. Also... While it's never audibly said that Usagi is bi, she shows clear female attraction. She falls for pretty much every girl that appears including almost all her team mates. Her relationship with Seiya is what it is and doesn't require a sexuality label slapped on either. No, you are broadcasting Western concepts to Japanese culture. What Usagi does is simple girl crush and akogare. This is normal in Japanese female culture and has nothing to do with sexual and physical attraction. You can easily see this by the fact that unlike Haruka x Michiru, these moments never received criticism from Japanese moral guardians during the original SM broadcast. Not to mention, all of her canon love interests are either male or androgynous. She also has a crush on Mamoru throughout the whole story. What kind of crush on all female characters are you talking about? Have we ever been shown that Usagi wants to date them? Making love with them or just doing romantic things? Hell, there are even a few scenes in the plot where she's mocking other girls because of potential gay scenes. Lol, do you literally call any criticism of the trans community transphobic and you don't see anything toxic in naming the female attraction to a trans man as homosexual? Okay. |
RobertBobertJul 2, 2021 10:02 AM
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149597871 said: The thing is that since its very inception, feminism was not meant to be "trans/queer-inclusionary." 149597871 said: The fundamental idea is fighting for women's rights. Anything that goes beyond that needs a special term, not the other way around. Being "trans-inclusionary" is definitely a new addition. There is already an organization to that: First, second, third and fourth wave feminism, with TERF being a sub group of feminists that exist during the third and fourth wave but rejected the mainstream. Also, by your own logic only first wave feminism should be called feminism, and it wasn't inclusive to black or lesbians either, so I guess TERFs can't call themselves that too. 149597871 said: TERF is most certainly a slur made by hyperwoke activists to erode the reputation of feminists who still stick to the fundamental ideas of the movement. Says the person using woke nonironically. 149597871 said: The majority of feminists and the vast majority of radical feminists are indeed trans-exclusionary That's just not true, most feminists groups trough history evolved together with every wave, most people that identify as feminists are inter sectional feminists since the third wave. 149597871 said: So instead of calling people "TERFs" for merely being feminists, you can just call them... feminists. We call them that. Except when we want to differ between 2 diferent feminists or more at the same time, them we say things like "Trans exclusionary", "Trans inclusive", "sex negative", "sex positive" and so on. 149597871 said: Transgender is an umbrella term, though. You cannot even define what a "transwoman" is without some fellow woke activist stabbing you in the back for not being inclusive enough. At this stage, the term "trans" includes cross-dressers or people who are not typically masculine/feminine. That's also just not true, if some one thinks that cross-dressers are trans they are just wrong and I have never even seen some one doing that even tho I'm super deep into the "woke culture" that you hate. |
| heh. |
RobertBobert said: So they use straight characters for their content and still demand gay characters, claiming they have no representation? So what? Because @UwU69 on twitter can draw an alternative universes based in the story of the a show them it wouldn't be nice to also have actual show creators doing some themselves? Not everyone is content with just having OCs and head canons. That's like saying "Why do you want to have (Insert IP, creator, studio or something here) make a canonical black character? Don't you already have your OC, AU, do not steal on twitter?" |
| heh. |
RobertBobert said: Bob-o-Dominador said: Because one of these are not like the other, there is a big diference between actually getting LGBT representation by a big IP and getting it by head cannons that only terminally online people will ever see and half that see don't even care because it is not cannon. So they use straight characters for their content and still demand gay characters, claiming they have no representation? Salty-GB said: I didn't see the TERF stuff. I just saw some cute pics of the girls from W.I.T.C.H being gay and assumed it was some wholesome shit goin down. Oops, my bad. My addition to this thread will be that TERFs suck, it is transphobic to deny trans people rights to bathrooms and sports, trans identities are valid and you don't owe anyone an explanation that you're trans but be safe pls. Trans women are women, trans men are men and NB folks are NB. Gender is performative and dumb. Also... While it's never audibly said that Usagi is bi, she shows clear female attraction. She falls for pretty much every girl that appears including almost all her team mates. Her relationship with Seiya is what it is and doesn't require a sexuality label slapped on either. No, you are broadcasting Western concepts to Japanese culture. What Usagi does is simple girl crush and akogare. This is normal in Japanese female culture and has nothing to do with sexual and physical attraction. You can easily see this by the fact that unlike Haruka x Michiru, these moments never received criticism from Japanese moral guardians during the original SM broadcast. Not to mention, all of her canon love interests are either male or androgynous. She also has a crush on Mamoru throughout the whole story. What kind of crush on all female characters are you talking about? Have we ever been shown that Usagi wants to date them? Making love with them or just doing romantic things? Lol, do you literally call any criticism of the trans community transphobic and you don't see anything toxic in naming the female attraction to a trans man as homosexual? Okay. I mean, I fuckin lived in Japan so like... no? That whole "school girls experiment with other school girls" thing is like the "girls throwing a slumber party" trope in America. It's not what you think it is. Usagi shows physical attraction to every pretty woman that appears and comments almost every time that the woman is indeed beautiful. Yes, she has a male partner, but that doesn't mean her bisexuality disappears. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that last part. I don't really use the word "toxic" unironically unless the situation is actually toxic. I think a lot of the criticism aimed at the trans community is unfounded and ignorant though. Are you referring to Usagi again for that last part? Because like I said, her relationship with Seiya is it's own thing. He identifies as male in human form but female in his transformed state. That's not what a trans man is. If anything, Seiya is much closer to a non-binary person. This also doesn't effect Usagi's sexuality, nor Seiya's. |
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Bob-o-Dominador said: RobertBobert said: So they use straight characters for their content and still demand gay characters, claiming they have no representation? So what? Because @UwU69 on twitter can draw an alternative universes based in the story of the a show them it wouldn't be nice to also have actual show creators doing some themselves? Not everyone is content with just having OCs and head canons. That's like saying "Why do you want to have (Insert IP, creator, studio or something here) make a canonical black character? Don't you already have your OC, AU, do not steal on twitter?" Why do you keep lecturing me about shipping, even though I've made it clear on several occasions that it's not the ships themselves? |
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Salty-GB said: RobertBobert said: So they use straight characters for their content and still demand gay characters, claiming they have no representation? No, you are broadcasting Western concepts to Japanese culture. What Usagi does is simple girl crush and akogare. This is normal in Japanese female culture and has nothing to do with sexual and physical attraction. You can easily see this by the fact that unlike Haruka x Michiru, these moments never received criticism from Japanese moral guardians during the original SM broadcast. Not to mention, all of her canon love interests are either male or androgynous. She also has a crush on Mamoru throughout the whole story. What kind of crush on all female characters are you talking about? Have we ever been shown that Usagi wants to date them? Making love with them or just doing romantic things? Lol, do you literally call any criticism of the trans community transphobic and you don't see anything toxic in naming the female attraction to a trans man as homosexual? Okay. I mean, I fuckin lived in Japan so like... no? That whole "school girls experiment with other school girls" thing is like the "girls throwing a slumber party" trope in America. It's not what you think it is. Usagi shows physical attraction to every pretty woman that appears and comments almost every time that the woman is indeed beautiful. Yes, she has a male partner, but that doesn't mean her bisexuality disappears. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that last part. I don't really use the word "toxic" unironically unless the situation is actually toxic. I think a lot of the criticism aimed at the trans community is unfounded and ignorant though. Are you referring to Usagi again for that last part? Because like I said, her relationship with Seiya is it's own thing. He identifies as male in human form but female in his transformed state. That's not what a trans man is. If anything, Seiya is much closer to a non-binary person. This also doesn't effect Usagi's sexuality, nor Seiya's. Just because you live in Japan does not mean that you automatically become an expert on Japanese culture. Especially if you non-ironically say that a straight girl cannot comment on the beauty of other girls. Not to mention the fact that now you literally just repeated the original thesis and ignored the nuances I mentioned that were contrary to reading the character as bisexual. Or do you sincerely think that a bisexual character will make fun of other characters for gay moments and even imply that someone might "become lesbian" and lose interest in boys (literally her mocking line for Makoto). Not to mention the fact that there was nothing in my words about experiments and now you are literally trying to use a strawman thing against me. Your understanding of transphobia is somewhat selective. You call criticism of the advantages of transsexual athletes transphobia, but at the same time you say that a woman's feelings for an androgynous trans male are homosexual, even if the latter looks like a hot ikemen. In the context of some other show, you would already be the target of bulling by infuriated trans readers for such words. |
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RobertBobert said: Bob-o-Dominador said: So what? Because @UwU69 on twitter can draw an alternative universes based in the story of the a show them it wouldn't be nice to also have actual show creators doing some themselves? Not everyone is content with just having OCs and head canons. That's like saying "Why do you want to have (Insert IP, creator, studio or something here) make a canonical black character? Don't you already have your OC, AU, do not steal on twitter?" Why do you keep lecturing me about shipping, even though I've made it clear on several occasions that it's not the ships themselves? Shipping is the thing that this expropriation runs manly around and the things that I say about ships mostly apply to the other instances as well, but since you so sensitive and want me to be more precise, let's try to talk this out. The problem you have is that characters that aren't confirmed to be LGBT or/and can be safely assumed to be straight are used sometimes as a representative of the LGBT movement, rigth? Well, many people have head cannons that thoses characters are LGBT, so it is a fandom culture element. There is also the fact that a lot of those characters are friends and support of LGBT characters so it is safe to assume that they would be part of the LGBT movement as allies. And that doesn't mean that representation in media stops being important, most people won't go interact with the fandom so they won't get the representation and even if they go there tho it is not official content so it lacks the impact. RobertBobert said: But at the same time you say that a woman's feelings for an androgynous trans male are homosexual, even if the latter looks like a hot ikemen. In the context of some other show, you would already be the target of bulling by infuriated trans readers for such words. They just explained to you that this characters that you 2 are talking about identify both as a men and a woman and so aren't a trans man. |
N04L1TYJul 2, 2021 10:54 AM
| heh. |
RobertBobert said: Salty-GB said: I mean, I fuckin lived in Japan so like... no? That whole "school girls experiment with other school girls" thing is like the "girls throwing a slumber party" trope in America. It's not what you think it is. Usagi shows physical attraction to every pretty woman that appears and comments almost every time that the woman is indeed beautiful. Yes, she has a male partner, but that doesn't mean her bisexuality disappears. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that last part. I don't really use the word "toxic" unironically unless the situation is actually toxic. I think a lot of the criticism aimed at the trans community is unfounded and ignorant though. Are you referring to Usagi again for that last part? Because like I said, her relationship with Seiya is it's own thing. He identifies as male in human form but female in his transformed state. That's not what a trans man is. If anything, Seiya is much closer to a non-binary person. This also doesn't effect Usagi's sexuality, nor Seiya's. Just because you live in Japan does not mean that you automatically become an expert on Japanese culture. Especially if you non-ironically say that a straight girl cannot comment on the beauty of other girls. Not to mention the fact that now you literally just repeated the original thesis and ignored the nuances I mentioned that were contrary to reading the character as bisexual. Or do you sincerely think that a bisexual character will make fun of other characters for gay moments and even imply that someone might "become lesbian" and lose interest in boys (literally her mocking line for Makoto). Not to mention the fact that there was nothing in my words about experiments and now you are literally trying to use a strawman thing against me. Your understanding of transphobia is somewhat selective. You call criticism of the advantages of transsexual athletes transphobia, but at the same time you say that a woman's feelings for an androgynous trans male are homosexual, even if the latter looks like a hot ikemen. In the context of some other show, you would already be the target of bulling by infuriated trans readers for such words. I never claimed to be an expert. I've just experienced Japanese school for myself and have an understanding for what girls do during school. Straight girls can obviously call other women beautiful, but there is no heterosexual explanation for Usagi's body language and tone. You literally never mentioned shit to me about these "nuances" but sure, sweaty. The 90s were a rough time for gay people and things that are considered offensive or outdated these days in the West were no in Japan. Even progressive people used to say some fucked up shit about queer people even if they meant no harm. Also, gay people joke around with eachother. I assumed you were going the "Japanese highschool girls date but don't consider it dating" route with the mention of akogure girl crush crap. If not then I take it back. I literally never called Usagi's and Seiya's relationship homosexual in nature. In fact I'll state it for a third time, it doesn't need a label. Seiya isn't a trans man... he's amab. He's trans in the sense that he is non-binary, but referring to him as a trans man is incorrect. Also, enough with the Japanese buzzwords. It's kinda cringe. If anything, I think your constant misgendering of Seiya would be more grounds for backlash than the accusations you're trying to pin on me |
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Salty-GB said: RobertBobert said: Just because you live in Japan does not mean that you automatically become an expert on Japanese culture. Especially if you non-ironically say that a straight girl cannot comment on the beauty of other girls. Not to mention the fact that now you literally just repeated the original thesis and ignored the nuances I mentioned that were contrary to reading the character as bisexual. Or do you sincerely think that a bisexual character will make fun of other characters for gay moments and even imply that someone might "become lesbian" and lose interest in boys (literally her mocking line for Makoto). Not to mention the fact that there was nothing in my words about experiments and now you are literally trying to use a strawman thing against me. Your understanding of transphobia is somewhat selective. You call criticism of the advantages of transsexual athletes transphobia, but at the same time you say that a woman's feelings for an androgynous trans male are homosexual, even if the latter looks like a hot ikemen. In the context of some other show, you would already be the target of bulling by infuriated trans readers for such words. I never claimed to be an expert. I've just experienced Japanese school for myself and have an understanding for what girls do during school. Straight girls can obviously call other women beautiful, but there is no heterosexual explanation for Usagi's body language and tone. You literally never mentioned shit to me about these "nuances" but sure, sweaty. The 90s were a rough time for gay people and things that are considered offensive or outdated these days in the West were no in Japan. Even progressive people used to say some fucked up shit about queer people even if they meant no harm. Also, gay people joke around with eachother. I assumed you were going the "Japanese highschool girls date but don't consider it dating" route with the mention of akogure girl crush crap. If not then I take it back. I literally never called Usagi's and Seiya's relationship homosexual in nature. In fact I'll state it for a third time, it doesn't need a label. Seiya isn't a trans man... he's amab. He's trans in the sense that he is non-binary, but referring to him as a trans man is incorrect. Also, enough with the Japanese buzzwords. It's kinda cringe. If anything, I think your constant misgendering of Seiya would be more grounds for backlash than the accusations you're trying to pin on me But you are a western guy, not a Japanese girl. In doing so, you declare that you understand Japanese female culture. Without even knowing what akogare is, lol. How could you get this knowledge without claiming to be an expert? So all the arguments that I keep getting are just more speculation in the form of hard facts, stupid Tumblr memes like "there is no heterosexual explanation for this" and the expectation that I will just accept your opinion because you think it is correct. Okay, my last question is, are you aware of things like akogare? How do you explain that Usagi NEVER mentions desires for sexual or romantic action with other girls, or even criticizes those girls who seem to be showing gay vibes? If I receive more naked statements, in which I have to blindly believe, then I will simply stop any conversation with you. I'm not going to buy shit like speculating about how a girl just admires the beauty of other girls. Where was Seiya canonically declared non-binary? At the time of the release of the original manga, the concept of non-binary was not in the political mainstream, even in the United States. Are you again passing off your interpretations for the actual lore of the franchise? |
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Bob-o-Dominador said: RobertBobert said: Why do you keep lecturing me about shipping, even though I've made it clear on several occasions that it's not the ships themselves? Shipping is the thing that this expropriation runs manly around and the things that I say about ships mostly apply to the other instances as well, but since you so sensitive and want me to be more precise, let's try to talk this out. The problem you have is that characters that aren't confirmed to be LGBT or/and can be safely assumed to be straight are used sometimes as a representative of the LGBT movement, rigth? Well, many people have head cannons that thoses characters are LGBT, so it is a fandom culture element. There is also the fact that a lot of those characters are friends and support of LGBT characters so it is safe to assume that they would be part of the LGBT movement as allies. And that doesn't mean that representation in media stops being important, most people won't go interact with the fandom so they won't get the representation and even if they go there tho it is not official content so it lacks the impact. RobertBobert said: But at the same time you say that a woman's feelings for an androgynous trans male are homosexual, even if the latter looks like a hot ikemen. In the context of some other show, you would already be the target of bulling by infuriated trans readers for such words. They just explained to you that this characters that you 2 are talking about identify both as a men and a woman and so aren't a trans man. To begin with, if Usagi is attracted to Seiya at all, it is to his masculine side. We have not been shown anywhere that she is somehow attracted to her feminine side. And to end with the fact that Seiya was not declared non-binary anywhere in the show, it is fanon. You ignored the point where I wrote that the authors of half of the illustrations are well aware that these characters are straight. Or are you absolutely serious about demanding that I be serious about hc that Sakura and Ino are lovers? |
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| it is a ship made by that series' fans, why would those characters canon sexualities matter lol |
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