Joker Game Episode 3 Discussion

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Jul 2007

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Tokoya said:

zcv45 said:
I find it really funny you guys expect them to speak french. English is a mandatory class in Japan(even if most can't speak it) while French is not. It's easier to get a VA to speak English than French.

Also, please explain any historical inaccuracies other than it's inaccurate. From what I've noticed, nothing seems wrong.
Unless you guys are referring to the resistance.
The origins of the movement started at 1940. Though they weren't organized, if that's what you guys talk about historical inaccuracies.
And violence were sporadic based on local events but as the anime never explicitly said why they were fighting, it doesn't prove that they portrayed the resistance otherwise.

And as such I suspect you are suspecting an existence of an hideout when they are unorganized. But is it really that unlikely? It might not be a major hideout for everyone in town, but they would be hunted down so for the few that resisted, they would have a place to run to. It's only logical.

And Fai, if you hate it so much, why don't you just stop watching? Kind of annoying seeing you complain about a show you clearly don't like.
Also, Germany wasn't that powerful at the time, so it wasn't exactly ideal to immediately ally with them after early success. Furthermore, Germany is half way across the globe making an alliance pretty ineffective(which it was)
Another thing, Germany at the time was trading weapons to China in exchange for goods. Japan was fighting China, so what Germany doing wasn't helping. It wasn't until the alliance that Germany stopped.
He wouldn't know the exact details of the agreement, but from the existing information, an alliance isn't all that likely. Japan was imperialistic, but doesn't mean they liked the West that much nor would they gain much from such alliance. Which they didn't.

Keep talking about historical accuracy when you don't understand the exact situation yourself and calling it whitewashing.

KoreaWS said:
You guys really made me check on the facts. I began investigating on dates and what not, and I thank the skeptics out there for reminding me I should be more wary of dates on these kind of shows. Case in point, I'm only using wikipedia. I'll need to sharpen my sources but for now this is what I've got.

Now
-The first minutes of the episode establishes that the spy of the week came as an foreign exchange student. He entered the country at June 15, 1939 through Marseilles, a southern port city in france. He is supposed to stay there for one year, until June 15 1940.

-The german invasion started around 10 of May of 1940. They attacked through the Ardennes and then along the Somme valley, located on the northern part of france.

-The episode could had happened on the northern part of france. The resistance members says that one of their bases is in Chatillon, in the Haut-de-Seine, which is also located on the northern part of france.

-The second armistice happens at June 22 1940, which was depicted on the series, as one user here posted.

With this data, our spy of the week could had easily been on his last days on france. The episode could had happened on the first days of June. The armistice image could have then been used as a way to situate the viewer on the historical context. There is also the possibility that the spy didn't stay literally one year, but had some extra days on his schedule.

I hope you guys gave this a read, and if any problem in there (besides wikipedia as source) please point it out so that we may learn together.

Comments like these are bringing me back to the UBW days when @Fai got REKT constantly for his hilarious bias lol

Nice pointless cheerleading m8. Great value to discussion as always.

The only one "rekking" ignorant fanboys in UBW forums was and will always be me. Why am I not surprised you are cheer-leading a defense of yet another shoddily written show.

Here's some LOGIC to make your cheerleading fall apart -

The events happen in 1940 here.
The full France occupation was in 1942. The situations depicted here would not occur for two years as the start of the resistance was nothing like this.
The Germany declaring war on the britain that the dude talks about having happened "just the other day"? HAPPENS YEAR BEFORE HE EVEN GETS STATIONED IN FRANCE. In 1939. The show is off by freaking year.
The nationalistic pro-Germany sentiment was already VERY strong in Japan for a long time. Tripartite Pact should come as no surprise to the so called "Superspy" - he should not be shocked at it having happened, nor should he be thinking on why it happened or questioning it. Dude acts like its the most shocking news he ever heard. Especially since all of that is mainly an excuse for Japan to continue brutality in China and further the so called "greater east asia prosperity sphere" agenda by possibly squeezing out some benefits from Germany. I am scared to think on how would those writers portray things like Pearl Harbor.

That's not even talking about the inaccurate military uniforms in the supposed flashbacks, french people somehow speaking in Japanese, the completely and utterly ridiculous treatment of amnesia in this(amnesia does not work this way! Treating amnesia does not work this way!) or the fact that most of the things pulled in this episode would not even realistic work against trained soldiers.

As it stands its an innacurate pro-war fantasy show with bunch of sameface dudes who asspull nonsense and then grin at the camera asking for "a reaaaal mission" as a way to show how smart they are. Its okay to like it but it is nothing special and its full of holes - a show that tries to pretend it is smarter than it is. Its a shoddily written bottle episode with absolutely nothing to write home about.

AhenshihaelApr 19, 2016 11:13 PM

Apr 19, 2016 10:43 PM

#71

Thievery

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Oct 2014

872

thiagopv said:
The first and second episodes were in 1937, while this one was in 1939? Is this correct?

This one is on June 1940. I checked some facts and concluded it's possible, and also there is an official timeline on the joker game site, putting this episode on summer 1940

The episodes aren't chronological. They will be jumping back and forth between 1939 and 1941.

Come on, don't make it so easy.

Fai said:

The events happen in 1940 here.
The full France occupation was in 1942. The situations depicted here would not occur for two years as the start of the resistance was nothing like this.

The germans entered paris on June 14. They entered france through the north, where is possible that the episode takes action.
Were you in that resistance?

Fai said:

The Germany declaring war on the britain that the dude talks about having happened "just the other day"? HAPPENS YEAR BEFORE HE EVEN GETS STATIONED IN FRANCE. In 1939. The show is off by freaking year.

"Just the other day" France was forced to surrender, and Germany was ready to attack England. A different thing is France and England declaring war on Germany, due to the attack to Poland.

Fai said:

The nationalistic pro-Germany sentiment was already VERY strong in Japan for a long time. Tripartite Pact should come as no surprise to the so called "Superspy" - he should not be shocked at it having happened, nor should he be thinking on why it happened or questioning it. Dude acts like its the most shocking news he ever heard.

He's questioning the validity of allying with germany given that he has his doubts about how Germany would triumph over England. Is almost like saying "How can they be so dumb?". You should also consider he has travelled more around the world that most citizens in japan.

Fai said:
Especially since all of that is mainly an excuse for Japan to continue brutality in China and further the so called "greater east asia prosperity sphere" agenda by possibly squeezing out some benefits from Germany. I am scared to think on how would those writers portray things like Pearl Harbor.

We will never see Pearl Harbor. The show has already put Japan's nationalism at shame. The show is focusing on spy shenanigan with an historical background.

Fai said:

That's not even talking about the inaccurate military uniforms in the supposed flashbacks,

Care to illuminate what flashbacks and why is relevant?

Fai said:
french people somehow speaking in Japanese,

Are you seriously this dense?

innacurate pro-war fantasy show

Apparently you are this dense

Fai said:
the completely and utterly ridiculous treatment of amnesia in this(amnesia does not work this way! Treating amnesia does not work this way!)

We know, and we are smart enough to not care

Fai said:
or the fact that most of the things pulled in this episode would not even realistic work against trained soldiers.

I doubt you know what you are talking about, mister war veteran.

ThieveryApr 19, 2016 11:19 PM

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye.

But does the heart have the right perspective?

Apr 19, 2016 11:07 PM

#72

spicychile

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Dec 2014

452

Tokoya said:
Comments like these are bringing me back to the UBW days when @Fai got REKT constantly for his hilarious bias lol

Those were some headache inducing times going through the UBW forums because of the whole "wai no proper adaptation" (am I a masochist?)... though I thought the show was good at best (S1) and went downhill. Then again, I am of the mindset that an anime should be a stand alone thing and not seem like its sole purpose was to advertise the source material. In other words, when people talk about the show being good for properly adapting its source material or bad for not doing so, I want to dropkick baby seals.

Luckily with Joker Game, nobody's really read the source material so we don't get shit like that for now. People are more or less focused on other things, like the historical accuracy of the show. Well, all I can say is regardless of whether or not the show properly represents history (but that disclaimer at the beginning), Joker Game is entertaining. And this episode was pretty tense. Didn't anticipate that betrayal, and it made sense. 5/5

I need sleep.

Apr 19, 2016 11:16 PM

#73

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Jul 2007

23708

lonelytree said:
"wai no proper adaptation"

UBW's problems had nothing to do with being faithful or not. As it stands its already pretty much anime-original route. That does not excuse poor characterization, god-awful pacing, trite cringe worthy malegaze fanservice and asspulls in every corner.

While Joker's game is nowhere nearly as badly written, its certainly nowhere near the best of the season - its a show that pretends to be smarter than it is and has a cinematography and directing that is far better than the writing deserves.

It looks great, It sounds great, it is shot great - but it is horribly dull, filled with unrelatable unrecognizable characters, plot conveniences, sexism and lack of over-arching focus. Its honestly THAT show of the season where you can turn around and say "eh it was okay I guess".

To be honest expecting historical accuracy in an anime is hard as Japan can be very tone-deaf to WW2 period. ConRevo came closest at being accurate with the dates and even then that was because it mainly dealt with Japan's own history and culture. But if you are going to make a show like Joker Game - at least make the plotlines consistent and logical - even if we ignore Historical inconsistencies and pro-war propaganda, stuff like how amnesia was handled her is just pure cringe. Not to mention that the concept of "cocky spy claims to have so many plans to asspull plot, then smirks at the camera at how easy this all was" already got old last episode. If the show wants to continue barely surviving, it needs to up its game - if next episode follows the exact same pattern, then oh well, the show falls down even more.

As it stands it reminds me of Perfect Snoozesider - in the same "holy shit the way the shots are framed and the way this whole thing is composed looks great...why the hell is everything else in it so dull alien and boring? And why character actions and plotpoints defy logic or common sense?"

Things like Re:Zero already blow it out of the water in terms of writing and characterization.

AhenshihaelApr 19, 2016 11:23 PM

Apr 19, 2016 11:28 PM

#74

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Dec 2012

2266

Sorry to disappoint, but I didn't find any historical mistakes using Wikipedia as reference, except one thing that concerns the anime only - Shimano's visa allowed 90 days (or 3 months) initially, but apparently he managed to stay over a year. Perhaps I couldn't read the second stamp, but this is of no importance (to anything).

IMO, the major points of the episode were 2:

1) 90:8:2
It's the rough estimation and evaluation of the attitude of the French populace in regards to the approaching Nazis from the North. "Bystanders" to"German collaborators" to "Resistance" simply means France wasn't prepared to face the advancing Germans and would likely seek other than military means to resolve the conflict. By June 10th 1940, France has been invaded from the North by the Germans and from the South by Italy, which just declared war on France and England. The situation resulted in signing the armistice of 22th June 1940 in Compiègne (aka as the Second Compiègne).

Shimano's personal task was to investigate the French Resistance, and as mentioned, it consisted mostly of students causing occasional uproar with little to no use of arms and without weapons logistic at all.

2) Spy manual.
The second hit didn't restore his memory - it was a joke, actually. Light memory losses pass naturally with time, but the important things were that:
* memory loss, deemed disadvantageous to a spy, actually could serve as a perfect cover. In Shimano's case, he infiltrated the Resistance and convinced them he could be trusted, despite the blurts in different languages, which could have blown away his cover.
* imprinting commands that would keep a spy's cover.

Explanation on why Shimano was surprised Japan joined the Germans, albeit his personal doubts about the latter, based on the escalating conflict with England (this would be during August, 1940) and the Tripartite Pact (edit - the pact of Steel was signed earlier) was signed on 27th of September, 1940.
Most of you seem to ignore that fact that WWII is severely ideological war, not only a far revanchist cry of the WWI. Japan hadn't been in good terms firts with Russia, then with the Soviet Union. Why and how it isn't important right now. I am inclined to think that Shimano's task is one of many assignments (as to other spies as well) because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed a couple of weeks before Shimano entered France though Marseilles. The Japanese felt left out of the loop and became suspicious of both Germany and The Soviet Union, also in regards their aspirations in Asia, where Japan's interest were prominent.
Although the Tripartite Pact provides a clause to pacify the Soviets, Hitler signes plan Barbarossa in December, 1940.

One of the most famous, if not the most famous, spy was a double agent with the code name "Ramsay", known as Richard Sorge. Yeah, he is a Soviet spy. That Sorge was capable in establishing spy networks almost at every location he had been sent to - in China and Japan mostly, during his active years. You'd Google it to read about him, if you're interested, and see for yourselves in what light Joker Game is placed.

Likewise, please, differentiate between your perception on the anime's execution and random historical nerding. Whether the characters speak Japanese when they are supposed to speak French can't be considered even a legitimate complaint. I'd rather have subs in different languages, than hearing Engrish, or Russian, or French in anime. No point torturing VAs, when there isn't needed. It would be a torture for me as well to merely listen.

Edit: changed Steel Pact to Tripartite Pact (I am not a native English speaker, so please excuse my French -_-; .

zellamiApr 20, 2016 12:04 AM

Apr 19, 2016 11:34 PM

#75

Norjack2

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Oct 2013

207

I loved this episode! I find historical anime very interesting, and this series is rekindling my love for it.

Apr 19, 2016 11:43 PM

#76

AnimeFan500

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Oct 2011

8878

Whoa what an awesome episode.

Apr 19, 2016 11:47 PM

#77

Thievery

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872

Fai said:
And why character actions and plotpoints defy logic or common sense? Oh wait, but things like Re:Zero already blow it out of the water in terms of writing and characterization

I now understand what kind of anime you like and how you see quality in a show.

Fai said:
Historical inconsistencies and pro-war propaganda

There's no relevant inconsistency, if any. Why you keep the delusion?

Fai said:
horribly dull, filled with unrelatable unrecognizable characters, plot conveniences, sexism and lack of over-arching focus

You seem to be really convinced of your ideals, since the show is actually interesting for this season.
I can recognize the soldier, the director, and now I have an idea who is this french spy. Sure, I don't know names, but I know who they are. It's gonna be slow if they keep the episodic style, but it's not a complication.
I can give you the plot conveniences, as it shows how well they can use what is around them and how they use the info available to them.
So... you missed how one male is portrayed as a complete tool for acting out of infatuation? It's not sexism if it portrays human weakness. Also, did you know that woman are useful cover spies since they can delude males in sexual or romantic ways?
The overarching plot atm is the begginings of WW2. I thougth it was obvious. Is true we still don't see the plot presented in the show's description, but it's been a fun ride at the moment.

Oh yeah, I also dislike your kin, so I won't bother replying to you anymore. Keep trying to delude the masses.

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye.

But does the heart have the right perspective?

Apr 20, 2016 12:29 AM

#78

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Nov 2011

209

This thread just became WWIII huh...

pteroz said:
I have the feeling that we will not see Sakuma anymore, bye bye Sakuma. The final scene really sounds like a good bye. His career as MC looks over to me.
I think the 8 spies will all take their own mission and this will be 1ep 1 spy.I hope something a little less predictable. Sakuma may appears time to time.
Those spies are bad at poker face by the ways, they do "I got you,bitch" type smiles everytime.

I called the anime will become episodic in the topic last week!! (I'm the best *_*)

Some unconsistency there and there:

the forth line is not even in French, it should have been written "Valable pour un seul voyage et un séjour en France de 90 jours à dater du passage de la frontière Française" that literally mean "Available for a unique travel for 90 days in France starting the border crossing"
yep, he stayed a whole year.
According to this picture(in red, occupied areas, Top-right shows the dates), Marseille was not occupied by German before 1942.
I didn't find the quotation of Horace anywhere on the net.
Where the F*** did he find a blank ammo?
The resistance was raised just after the armistice. But the 2% ratio is the resistance at it's best (over 4 years), there is no way it reached that proportion in 1940.

Despite this, I still enjoyed the show. This was a good episode (I prefered last week though). It's a story, the plot is more important than historical accuracy. Why should it be perfect anyway? If I was a writer, I would take some freedom on that. Stop try to act like an elitist, because nobody care.
Why people want them to speak French ??? I'm French but I still keep in mind this is a show for Japanese people. I won't look a shows where they speak German in French TV myself. wtf is wrong with you.
I'm ok with the amnesia thing, introduced for the plot, removed to make the story more fluent + show "love can overcome betrayal and war" scene.
It was exactly what I expected in fact after the episode last week. What would a spy do if he lost memory? if he get captured? if he get forged information? etc
I didn't think amnesia was upcoming this soon O_o, so I'm happy with it

pterozApr 20, 2016 12:53 AM

Apr 20, 2016 12:41 AM

#79

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Jul 2007

23708

pteroz said:

Some unconsistency there and there:

the forth line is not even in French, it should have been written "Valable pour un seul voyage et un séjour en France de 90 jours à dater du passage de la frontière Française" that literally mean "Available for a unique travel for 90 days in France starting the border crossing"
yep, he stayed a whole year.
According to this picture(in red, occupied areas, Top-right shows the dates), Marseille was not occupied by German before 1942.
I didn't find the quotation of Horace anywhere on the net.
Where the F*** did he find a blank ammo?
The resistance was raised just after the armistice. But the 2% ratio is the resistance at it's best (over 4 years), there is no way it reached that proportion in 1940.

Finally someone gets the problem with historical portrayal here. The whole situation is implausible. Especially for the show that relies so much on History to set itself up.

And yes as I said it takes one out of the setting - I kept thinking through the episode "how is this possible" and waiting for some sort of explanation and then the writing had the spy be surprised at tripartite pact and I just facepalmed.

Its easier to suspend disbelief in some alternate reality or Cryptohistory/Pseudohistory genre, but this show sets itself up to exist within the real world history with real world history affecting the events and narrative.
ITs harder to suspend your disbelief in shows like this. The thing is - most of that could have been avoided with simple wikipedia check.

As I said expecting an anime to be accurate in terms of WW2 is silly but this reinforces the rest of writing problems too(the amnesia, etc). If the writer can't keep situation make sense when all it takes is looking up a wiki, then of course they would not be able to keep the situation making sense when it comes to the more narrative-driven matters like character logic.

The problems were in previous episode too but the historical blunder - a simple academic mistake only emphasizes the writing problems.

Why people want them to speak French ??? I'm French but I still keep in mind this is a show for Japanese people. I won't look a shows where they speak German in French TV myself. wtf is wrong with you.

Because they had people speak English. It creates a dissonance. It makes it look like everyone in France speaks Japanese since we have the acknowledgement of English language in first two episodes.
Either have EVERYONE speak Japanese(and make the viewer assume its for the audience convenience) or follow up what was already done last few episodes and have everyone speak their own languages.

Apr 20, 2016 12:51 AM

#80

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Dec 2012

2266

@pteroz

He wasn't in Marseille during the episode, he simply entered from there. The Parisian accent detected by the trio implies Shimano spent a significant time in Paris. Given the capital was left without any defense and showing no resistance, he probably moved around Paris, trying to find the Resistance members who were his targets. Anyway, it more logical to look for resistance where the conflict is, than in an area that isn't invaded yet (I think).

The percentage is approximate and Shimano came up with it before making contact with Alain's group, actually. Achieving 2% for the next years could be deemed success, given that out of the three members he met, only one showed dedication and loyalty to France :))

Yeah, you're the best ^_^ Yeah, Shimano is Hatano. Who was the next spy in the preview?

Apr 20, 2016 12:59 AM

#81

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Dec 2012

2266

Fai said:

pteroz said:

Some unconsistency there and there:

the forth line is not even in French, it should have been written "Valable pour un seul voyage et un séjour en France de 90 jours à dater du passage de la frontière Française" that literally mean "Available for a unique travel for 90 days in France starting the border crossing"
yep, he stayed a whole year.
According to this picture(in red, occupied areas, Top-right shows the dates), Marseille was not occupied by German before 1942.
I didn't find the quotation of Horace anywhere on the net.
Where the F*** did he find a blank ammo?
The resistance was raised just after the armistice. But the 2% ratio is the resistance at it's best (over 4 years), there is no way it reached that proportion in 1940.

Finally someone gets the problem with historical portrayal here. The whole situation is implausible. Especially for the show that relies so much on History to set itself up.

And yes as I said it takes one out of the setting - I kept thinking through the episode "how is this possible" and waiting for some sort of explanation and then the writing had the spy be surprised at tripartite pact and I just facepalmed.

Its easier to suspend disbelief in some alternate reality or Cryptohistory/Pseudohistory genre, but this show sets itself up to exist within the real world history with real world history affecting the events and narrative.
ITs harder to suspend your disbelief in shows like this. The thing is - most of that could have been avoided with simple wikipedia check.

As I said expecting an anime to be accurate in terms of WW2 is silly but this reinforces the rest of writing problems too(the amnesia, etc). If the writer can't keep situation make sense when all it takes is looking up a wiki, then of course they would not be able to keep the situation making sense when it comes to the more narrative-driven matters like character logic.

The problems were in previous episode too but the historical blunder - a simple academic mistake only emphasizes the writing problems.

Why people want them to speak French ??? I'm French but I still keep in mind this is a show for Japanese people. I won't look a shows where they speak German in French TV myself. wtf is wrong with you.

Because they had people speak English. It creates a dissonance. It makes it look like everyone in France speaks Japanese since we have the acknowledgement of English language in first two episodes.
Either have EVERYONE speak Japanese(and make the viewer assume its for the audience convenience) or follow up what was already done last few episodes and have everyone speak their own languages.

Do you have any vague idea when the WWII even started and ended before making another ignorant post on history, least on the anime. And if you haven't read spy literature enough, don't talk about plausibility in fiction:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bourne_Identity_%28novel%29

Apr 20, 2016 1:10 AM

#82

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Nov 2011

209

zellami said:
@pteroz

He wasn't in Marseille during the episode, he simply entered from there. The Parisian accent detected by the trio implies Shimano spent a significant time in Paris. Given the capital was left without any defense and showing no resistance, he probably moved around Paris, trying to find the Resistance members who were his targets. Anyway, it more logical to look for resistance where the conflict is, than in an area that isn't invaded yet (I think).

The percentage is approximate and Shimano came up with it before making contact with Alain's group, actually. Achieving 2% for the next years could be deemed success, given that out of the three members he met, only one showed dedication and loyalty to France :))

Yeah, you're the best ^_^ Yeah, Shimano is Hatano. Who was the next spy in the preview?

Huh ... why did I even though it was in Marseille -_-

Apr 20, 2016 1:15 AM

#83

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Dec 2012

2266

pteroz said:

zellami said:
@pteroz

He wasn't in Marseille during the episode, he simply entered from there. The Parisian accent detected by the trio implies Shimano spent a significant time in Paris. Given the capital was left without any defense and showing no resistance, he probably moved around Paris, trying to find the Resistance members who were his targets. Anyway, it more logical to look for resistance where the conflict is, than in an area that isn't invaded yet (I think).

The percentage is approximate and Shimano came up with it before making contact with Alain's group, actually. Achieving 2% for the next years could be deemed success, given that out of the three members he met, only one showed dedication and loyalty to France :))

Yeah, you're the best ^_^ Yeah, Shimano is Hatano. Who was the next spy in the preview?

Huh ... why did I even though it was in Marseille -_-

No worries, man, I wasn't chewing on you or something!

Have to go to work and have a life, after all, gyahhkh!

Apr 20, 2016 1:18 AM

#84

Lacertoss

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Jul 2013

225

NOBODY in Japan would have been surprised back then that they would ally with Germany.

There were PLENTY of people in Japan who saw colaboration with Germany as a terrible idea for the country. Both on the high ranks of the military and among the common people.
You should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Japan-War-An-Oral-History/dp/1565840399
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamoru_Shigemitsu

Anyway, anyone saying that this show is whitewashing anything is CLEARLY biased or at least isn't paying any attention. The Japanese army and high-command so far was directly portraited as fanatic (ep 1 and 2) corrupt (ep. 2) and incompetent (ep 3). It was also implied in ep 3 that they were commiting atrocities in East Asia.
Just because the show doesen't fit the """traditional""" narrative telling of the WW2 as a battle of good vs evil (which is silly, by the way) it doesen't mean that it's whitewashing anything. That is completely ridiculous, just because a group of characters are portrayed in a good light, in contrast to their country official policy, it doesen't mean that that official policy in condoned.

Apr 20, 2016 1:21 AM

#85

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Jul 2007

23708

Lacertoss said:

NOBODY in Japan would have been surprised back then that they would ally with Germany.

There were PLENTY of people in Japan who saw colaboration with Germany as a terrible idea for the country. Both on the high ranks of the military and among the common people.
You should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Japan-War-An-Oral-History/dp/1565840399
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamoru_Shigemitsu

Anyway, anyone saying that this show is whitewashing anything is CLEARLY biased or at least isn't paying any attention. The Japanese army and high-command so far was directly portraited as fanatic (ep 1 and 2) corrupt (ep. 2) and incompetent (ep 3). It was also implied in ep 3 that they were commiting atrocities in East Asia.
Just because the show doesen't fit the """traditional""" narrative telling of the WW2 as a battle of good vs evil (which is silly, by the way) it doesen't mean that it's whitewashing anything. That is completely ridiculous, just because a group of characters are portrayed in a good light, in contrast to their country official policy, it doesen't mean that that official policy in condoned.

Portraying Japanese official as scummy or dumb IS a method of whitewashing. "Oh it was not our fault, we just had really silly and stupid leaders who betrayed glorious japan!". THe very point is that both sides were dumb and driven by propaganda and nationalism. Trying to portray Japan as someone who was "conspired against" like this show tried again and again or as some nation that "got messed over by some meek politicians who did not respect japan" is ridiculous. Japanese nation was driven by nationalism back then and did shitload of horrifying war crimes. Then americans, also driven by nationalism and racism , dropped two nukes on them, leading to a complete and shameful capitulation. Both sides were monsters in that incident, but in the long run, Japan only benefited from the arrangement easily dominating technological world and relying on america for resources and business opportunities. They took the worst situation and made the best out of it.

Not to mention it brings commentary to current push for militarization in Japan and how "leftists are meek and liberal idiots who does not want Japan to reach glory" and stuff. Its the same type of "clever" pro-militarization" propaganda as Kancolle.

AhenshihaelApr 20, 2016 1:35 AM

Apr 20, 2016 1:26 AM

#86

Offline

Nov 2011

209

Fai said:

Lacertoss said:

There were PLENTY of people in Japan who saw colaboration with Germany as a terrible idea for the country. Both on the high ranks of the military and among the common people.
You should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Japan-War-An-Oral-History/dp/1565840399
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamoru_Shigemitsu

Anyway, anyone saying that this show is whitewashing anything is CLEARLY biased or at least isn't paying any attention. The Japanese army and high-command so far was directly portraited as fanatic (ep 1 and 2) corrupt (ep. 2) and incompetent (ep 3). It was also implied in ep 3 that they were commiting atrocities in East Asia.
Just because the show doesen't fit the """traditional""" narrative telling of the WW2 as a battle of good vs evil (which is silly, by the way) it doesen't mean that it's whitewashing anything. That is completely ridiculous, just because a group of characters are portrayed in a good light, in contrast to their country official policy, it doesen't mean that that official policy in condoned.

Portraying Japanese official as scummy or dumb IS a method of whitewashing. "Oh it was not our fault, we just had really silly and stupid leaders who betrayed glorious japan!"

... you're dumb heh??
Is there anything to whitewash in the first place ? Nodody look Japan as a country who fought against USA and for Nazis nowadays (except chinese who still dislike how they were rampaged by them). You're overthinking

Apr 20, 2016 1:33 AM

#87

Doomdoctor

Offline

Mar 2015

923

Oh boy, this transformed from a nitpicking thread to a problematic(different views than mine) portrayal thread really fast.

Apr 20, 2016 1:38 AM

#88

Lacertoss

Offline

Jul 2013

225

Fai said:

Portraying Japanese official as scummy or dumb IS a method of whitewashing. "Oh it was not our fault, we just had really silly and stupid leaders who betrayed glorious japan!". THe very point is that both sides were dumb and driven by propaganda and nationalism. Trying to portray Japan as someone who was "conspired against" like this show tried again and again or as some nation that "got messed over by some meek politicians who did not respect japan" is ridiculous. Japanese nation was driven by nationalism back then and did shitload of horrifying war crimes. Then americans, also driven by nationalism and racism , dropped two nukes on them. Both sides were monsters in that incident, but in the long run, Japan only benefited from the arrangement easily dominating technological world and relying on america for resources and business opportunities.

Not to mention it brings commentary to current push for militarization in Japan and how "leftists are meek and liberal idiots who does not want Japan to reach glory" and stuff. Its the same type of "clever" pro-militarization" propaganda as Kancolle.

What? The show had the entire opening part of the second episode to highlight the nationalist brainwashing bullshit. The protagonist of the 1st and 2nd episodes is the PERFECT example of a good person being fed so much nationalist BS can end up losing sight of what's really important, only recovering that sight at the end of episode 2, in that beautiful sequence with the soldiers marching under the cherry tree.
Honestly, this show have such a clear anti-fascist feeling that this discussion is absurd. What would you have them do? Imply that supporting the Germans wasn't an idiotic decision when it WAS, and when it was widely percieved by many people at the time as such?
The thing is, we grew so accostumed of having the Axis powers constantly vilified that when something presents them in a more neutral way, we get the immediate feeling of whitewashing, which it's not true, at least for this show.

Seriously, you should probably rewatch the whole thing. The only time Japan in portrayed as conspired against is on the first episode regarding the Five Power Treaty of Washington. And, well, at that time, Japan was really conspired against (or at least it was almost unnanimously thought so in Japan).

LacertossApr 20, 2016 1:49 AM

Apr 20, 2016 1:59 AM

#89

Offline

Nov 2011

209

Lacertoss said:

Fai said:

Portraying Japanese official as scummy or dumb IS a method of whitewashing. "Oh it was not our fault, we just had really silly and stupid leaders who betrayed glorious japan!". THe very point is that both sides were dumb and driven by propaganda and nationalism. Trying to portray Japan as someone who was "conspired against" like this show tried again and again or as some nation that "got messed over by some meek politicians who did not respect japan" is ridiculous. Japanese nation was driven by nationalism back then and did shitload of horrifying war crimes. Then americans, also driven by nationalism and racism , dropped two nukes on them. Both sides were monsters in that incident, but in the long run, Japan only benefited from the arrangement easily dominating technological world and relying on america for resources and business opportunities.

Not to mention it brings commentary to current push for militarization in Japan and how "leftists are meek and liberal idiots who does not want Japan to reach glory" and stuff. Its the same type of "clever" pro-militarization" propaganda as Kancolle.

What? The show had the entire opening part of the second episode to highlight the nationalist brainwashing bullshit. The protagonist of the 1st and 2nd episodes is the PERFECT example of a good person being fed so much nationalist BS can end up losing sight of what's really important, only recovering that sight at the end of episode 2, in that beautiful sequence with the soldiers marching under the cherry tree.
Honestly, this show have such a clear anti-fascist feeling that this discussion is absurd. What would you have them do? Imply that supporting the Germans wasn't an idiotic decision when it WAS, and when it was widely percieved by many people at the time as such?
The thing is, we grew so accostumed of having the Axis powers constantly vilified that when something presents them in a more neutral way, we get the immediate feeling of whitewashing, which it's not true, at least for this show.

Seriously, you should probably rewatch the whole thing. The only time Japan in portrayed as conspired against is on the first episode regarding the Five Power Treaty of Washington. And, well, at that time, Japan was really conspired against (or at least it was almost unnanimously thought so in Japan).

Marry me.
just kidding... fuck 30 letters

Apr 20, 2016 2:22 AM

#90

thiagopv

Offline

Jan 2015

247

KoreaWS said:

thiagopv said:
The first and second episodes were in 1937, while this one was in 1939? Is this correct?

This one is on June 1940. I checked some facts and concluded it's possible, and also there is an official timeline on the joker game site, putting this episode on summer 1940

The episodes aren't chronological. They will be jumping back and forth between 1939 and 1941.

Come on, don't make it so easy.

Just rewatched the first bit, wasn't paying too much attention I guess, and you're right.

He says he entered France on June 1939 (I remembered reading that so that's what lead to my mistake) and he's been on France for a year now.

Apr 20, 2016 2:53 AM

#91

Isiniel

Offline

Feb 2016

21

@Pteroz :

According to some dude on some forum, blank ammo seems to be craftable from real ammo (If we consider that the gun contains from the beginning ammo or the resistance is dumb xD).

As you're a french viewer as me (and as Fai loves French dude speaking in french), i'll just copy/pasta because i can't translate properly xD :

"pour transformer une cartouche "normale" en cartouche à blanc, il faut:
un marteau à inertie pour ôter le projectile.
ensuite jeter la poudre dans le jardin, ça fait de l'engrais.
il reste l'étui et l'amorce.
la percussion de l'amorce seule produira une détonation très faible, peu "réaliste" mais évitera tout danger annexe."

For Horace's quote, maybe it's "Il est doux, il est beau de mourir pour sa patrie" (II — À la jeunesse romaine) or "(le nom d'heureux appartient à celui qui) [...] ne craindrait pas de mourir pour ses amis ou sa patrie" (Ode IX), but translated differently by Crunchyroll ?

IsinielApr 20, 2016 3:11 AM

French viewer. Sorry for my bad english :) !

Apr 20, 2016 3:28 AM

#92