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Darkmoq said: Guilek said: They already said earlier that Guardians have no free will. Is that right? my bad. The first time episode 6, If I remember well but I didn't check. |
Epicenter said: Yeah l too find Saber's choice of actions weird staying back just to ask questions when Rin's in trouble and she barely trusts Lancer, unless she's lying and really plans on interfering in Shirou's fight if he starts losing, which is what I assume. We'll have to wait and see. Lancer revealed he was ordered by his Master to keep Rin safe just before he went ahead,you know. If he wanted to actually be a nuisance he would have killed both Shirou and Rin a long time ago. He's also shown to be generally nice in that he got angry at Archer for betraying Rin a second time. Darkmoq said: She doesn't give a fuck about Rin then lol. this is wrong |
Darkmoq said: Also, if Archer is really so fed up with humanity why couldn't he just refuse to carry out his duty and just let the human race burn? In VN Fate they explained how ordinary heroic spirits don't retain their memories. Do they ever explain why Archer can retain his enough to become jaded? . But he cant, like they said guardians are automated defense systems, once you become one you no longer have free will. |
 |
| The biggest problem I have with the anime original content is the way the counter force was presented. It was cool seeing archer kill terrorists but it just seemed kinda bias. I am glad the anime is AU because it really contradicts the idea that the counter force is karmic justice to protect humanity. Most countries have had rebellion at some time. Archer should've killed the Americans fighting against the British ect by the anime counter force logic. |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
damastah said: [/b]WAD1992 said: no, we just think that certain characters are 1D as FUK and others deserve more exploration ..... but hey , lets fuk every character up so we can talk about shirou's complex over and over and over again ......... that would be progressive and helpful huh ?? The point of UBW again, is Shirou coming to terms that his ideals aren't perfect. [b]Taiga is 1 dimensional, why not give her screen time too? ohh snapp!! ya got me , i was OBVIOUSLY talking about taiga ..... =_= more seriously : caster could have used more screen time, however , i myself found shirou to had enough .... i honestly DO NOT get what do u want him doing in more screen time ??! <_<; wtf are we supposed to know more about the guy , he gets developed near the end, and he got enough in the start .... why not do the same for archa ?? what aspects of his personality are missing or got glossed over ?? plz elaborate ... |
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TheDodo said: So how can that guy fight on par with his future self?? -Rin is strong like we saw against Caster. -Archer is masterless -Like we saw in Saber vs Archer, masterless servant are weaker. Wait and see what happens. |
Duri1n said: WHY!!! Dat Cliffhanger! :O Okay, Now I think Shirou is pretty badass Used to think he was an idiot, but in the past 3 episodes he's been far more likable and a bit epic (btw, just watched the last 3 episodes today, so I only just found out Archer=Shirou, which is, mind-blowingly epic. I always knew they were related but never really realised they were the same person! And me disliking shirou earlier just makes this plot twist all the more epic) Btw, what ever happened to Assassin? Now Caster's dead. I rmb that there was some incident at Ryuudou temple at the post-credits scene in the last episode before this, could that be assassin's doing? Also, poor lancer. I guess I expected him to die eventually, but... being ordered to kill himself... ouch... Lancers in both grail wars died pretty pathetically, huh... tough luck You have seen the light my friend. Rejoice! |
Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
Epicenter said: Yeah l too find Saber's choice of actions weird staying back just to ask questions when Rin's in trouble and she barely trusts Lancer, unless she's lying and really plans on interfering in Shirou's fight if he starts losing, which is what I assume. We'll have to wait and see. It's Nasu's forced way of giving her a resolution. Must keep them Saberfags happy. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
TheDodo said:  So how can that guy fight on par with his future self?? All that proves is that Shirou liked it when Rin was doing it to him... |
| This episode was awesome for shirou's character even if not directly. |
Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
pjs312 said: I wouldn't say its a big change since the scene was only 23 seconds and didn't really affect the episode. It's a big change to ufo. Unlike with Zero, they seem VERY reluctant to go back and "fix" anything. Just look at the first cour's BDs. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Epicenter said: Yeah l too find Saber's choice of actions weird staying back just to ask questions when Rin's in trouble and she barely trusts Lancer, unless she's lying and really plans on interfering in Shirou's fight if he starts losing, which is what I assume. We'll have to wait and see. Lancer revealed he was ordered by his Master to keep Rin safe just before he went ahead,you know. If he wanted to actually be a nuisance he would have killed both Shirou and Rin a long time ago. He's also shown to be generally nice in that he got angry at Archer for betraying Rin a second time. Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. . |
| Jaywalker. |
Epicenter said: Yeah l too find Saber's choice of actions weird staying back just to ask questions when Rin's in trouble and she barely trusts Lancer, unless she's lying and really plans on interfering in Shirou's fight if he starts losing, which is what I assume. We'll have to wait and see. IMO, that was the point of the added Saber flashbacks. It's obvious the conflict between Archer and Shirou is relevant to her own wish/ideals/thoughts/etc. That's why she is adamant on bearing witness, and trusting Lancer with Rin's life. |
Epicenter said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: Lancer revealed he was ordered by his Master to keep Rin safe just before he went ahead,you know. If he wanted to actually be a nuisance he would have killed both Shirou and Rin a long time ago. He's also shown to be generally nice in that he got angry at Archer for betraying Rin a second time. Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. . Ransa is a good doggy. Saber knows of his legend and loyalty. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
WAD1992 said: wtf are we supposed to know more about the guy , he gets developed near the end, and he got enough in the start .... why not do the same for archa ?? what aspects of his personality are missing or got glossed over ?? plz elaborate ... You know this whole time I've been typing out a lot. Let me extremely simplify this for you: Archer can get his development, JUST GIVE SHIROU HIS AS WELL. Seriously, lots of "monologue moments", heck not even every damn instance in the VN, could've been given to Shirou to flesh him out more, make us know WHY he cares so much about his damn ideals. If only the above was executed, THEN, the complaints towards this adaptation by VN readers like myself would've severely decreased. Because if you can notice, a majority of said complaints were due to changes or lack of content regarding Shirou's portrayal. And yes there are of course other complains, but you get my point. |
 |
Epicenter said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: Lancer revealed he was ordered by his Master to keep Rin safe just before he went ahead,you know. If he wanted to actually be a nuisance he would have killed both Shirou and Rin a long time ago. He's also shown to be generally nice in that he got angry at Archer for betraying Rin a second time. Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. . The real question is why Rin didn't use her command seals?? |
Darkmoq said: I thought this was a solid 3/5. Most time travel plots don't make sense when you break them down. The smart thing to do is enjoy the ride and not over-think it. In this case i'm just trying to figure out how deep I'm supposed to think about it. Archer believes killing Shirou miiiight prevent him from ever being a Guardian, is there a way to test it? I mean does he have memories of fighting a version of himself years ago? If Shirou cut off his pinky would Archer lose a pinky? And if it didn't then it would seem like the Universe saved a back up copy of the original Archer and therefore it wouldn't change anything if Archer kills Shirou. Also, if Archer is really so fed up with humanity why couldn't he just refuse to carry out his duty and just let the human race burn? In VN Fate they explained how ordinary heroic spirits don't retain their memories. Do they ever explain why Archer can retain his enough to become jaded? Btw, what is the "Answer" that people are referring to? Is that something from the VN? Is that even from this episode? Thanks. HS do not retain memories of their time in past wars if they were summoned again. they will retain their memories of their life. while archer did in fact forget most of what happened in his life, he still remembers his enternal life as a guardian. also archer comes from another universe (F/SN does have 3 routes so the assumption that another 5th war took place in a parallel universe is not out of nowhere) where HS EMIYA was not summoned. |
| all other archers pale in comparison. |
Epicenter said: Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. Maybe,but it was because of Lancer in the first place that Caster was defeated.If he hadn't helped out Shirou and Rin would never have made it past Archer. . Not really? |
Neelix said: Darkmoq said: I thought this was a solid 3/5. That Lancer punch was awesome. I'm surprised Shinji had any teeth left. I'm really trying to figure UBW Saber out. I realize that unlike in Fate, her role in the narrative is more sidelined but that doesn't have to mean inconsistent or silly. First let me say something positive...I thought it was touching last episode when she chose to honor her old pledge to Shirou despite being weak and masterless. However, after she formed her new pact her concern for Shirou became borderline retarded. She's honor bound as a knight (and incentivized as a grail-seeker) to protect her master right? And that would be Rin. It shouldn't even be a hard choice for her as she already agreed last episode to stand aside in the confrontation between Shirou and Archer. Btw, that's after failing as a servant and letting a depleted, masterless Archer kidnap her master, Rin. Anyway, back to this episode. Why in the fuck did she trust Lancer, a rival servant--who at best is just 1 command seal away from enemy servant-- to rescue her master? How does Saber's morbid curiosity about the impending Shirou v Archer bloodbath supersede her duty? I could chalk it up to just be another 'convenient' plot point if Lancer brought Rin back smoothly but it's downright idiotic when this obvious oversight causes the plan to fail. One can only wonder what would have happened if Saber was there with Lancer. For starters, she'd probably castrate Shinji and it wouldn't take one of Rin's CS to do it. If you're Rin, Lancer's defiance is not exactly confidence-inspiring. 'No I refuse to kill this helpless young lady. Psst, don't worry Rin, he'd have to part with one of his 50 spare command spells!' How sick would it have been if he stabbed himself to avoid having to kill her. I was betting on that actually. Most time travel plots don't make sense when you break them down. The smart thing to do is enjoy the ride and not over-think it. In this case i'm just trying to figure out how deep I'm supposed to think about it. Archer believes killing Shirou miiiight prevent him from ever being a Guardian, is there a way to test it? I mean does he have memories of fighting a version of himself years ago? If Shirou cut off his pinky would Archer lose a pinky? And if it didn't then it would seem like the Universe saved a back up copy of the original Archer and therefore it wouldn't change anything if Archer kills Shirou. Also, if Archer is really so fed up with humanity why couldn't he just refuse to carry out his duty and just let the human race burn? In VN Fate they explained how ordinary heroic spirits don't retain their memories. Do they ever explain why Archer can retain his enough to become jaded? Btw, what is the "Answer" that people are referring to? Is that something from the VN? Is that even from this episode? Thanks. Saber doesn't care that much about Rin, The reason why she watching this fight because that fight is extremely important to her, she and Shirou and very similar individuals, and thus his end and realisations in very close to her own. They both but the ideal above themselves, hers ended in ruin, she wants to see how his ends. If you hadn't noticed by now, Saber as HS is very selfish human being, she just wants to her ends, or things pertaining to. Answer is the name of this episode and this part od the VN and basically the entire point, Archer is questioning his entire existence, choices in life and worth, through asking his previous self, Shirou like you probably figured out will give him an answer. So much wrong in one paragraph 1) She is not selfish 2) She cares about Rin and she knows what Rin would do if Shirou died and she was saved by Ransa 3)She didn't want to see how his ends. She already knows how his ends. She's just making sure what she thinks is right. There's only one place that ideal would take them, anyway. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
mira-nyan said: Epicenter said: Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. . Ransa is a good doggy. Saber knows of his legend and loyalty. But it doesn't matter if he has a master with command seals or a master in general she's never met. |
| Jaywalker. |
damastah said: WAD1992 said: wtf are we supposed to know more about the guy , he gets developed near the end, and he got enough in the start .... why not do the same for archa ?? what aspects of his personality are missing or got glossed over ?? plz elaborate ... You know this whole time I've been typing out a lot. Let me extremely simplify this for you: Archer can get his development, JUST GIVE SHIROU HIS AS WELL. Seriously, lots of "monologue moments", heck not even every damn instance in the VN, could've been given to Shirou to flesh him out more, make us know WHY he cares so much about his damn ideals. If only the above was executed, THEN, the complaints towards this adaptation by VN readers like myself would've severely decreased. Because if you can notice, a majority of said complaints were due to changes or lack of content regarding Shirou's portrayal. And yes there are of course other complains, but you get my point. fair enough >_> yes, i guess it didn't deliver in the characterization department for "some" characters >_> and it could have been better i guess ... |
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| If Saber was selfish she would have just killed Shirou when Caster took over and went on her way to win the war. |
black1blade said: This episode was awesome for shirou's character even if not directly. SEE dis guy GETS IT !!! anyway .... yes it could have been better i guess >_> |
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DamnThatsTheSpot said: Epicenter said: Meh, Saber of all people should know you can't trust people that much in the war, especially people you've never met like Lancer's master. Maybe,but it was because of Lancer in the first place that Caster was defeated.If he hadn't helped out Shirou and Rin would never have made it past Archer. . Not really? |
| Jaywalker. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: If Saber was selfish she would have just killed Shirou when Caster took over and went on her way to win the war. . She wouldn't wear the raincoat she disliked. She would've left him to be killed by Herkzerker She would'nt have saved him at the school, e.t.c |
The sun is a deadly laser |
WAD1992 said: black1blade said: This episode was awesome for shirou's character even if not directly. SEE dis guy GETS IT !!! anyway .... yes it could have been better i guess >_> But does he know that |
|
| I can find a number of faults in the way ufo has adapted UBW so far, but this episode was just splendid. One of the largest problems of this adaption has been focusing the dialogue in the wrong areas. Much more time is spent using the dialogue to advance the plot than it is to develop the characters, and that betrays the purpose of the VN. This episode rectified that. This episode was practically nothing but character development, and I simply adore episodes like these. If there really is no plans to adapt the Fate route at all, then I'm more than content with this adaption using some of its run time to "merge routes." I said from the very beginning that it'd be easy to merge Saber's backstory into UBW without it seeming out of place. While this one, short flashback scene barely even touched upon Saber's backstory, minimal development is still better than none at all. If the remaining episodes expand further on her character, I'll be plenty happy with that. In addition, I think it seems quite clear this adaption is acknowledging its ties with Fate/Zero. UBW is no longer being treated as an isolated, standalone series to which F/Z is merely a prequel; it is now being treated as a closely interlinked series where the two of them are meant to further develop each other. Revealing Kiritsugu as Illya's father was the first major sign of this, and inserting F/Z flashbacks in this episode further proved this. In addition, Saber's character is developed in F/Z as well, so it's easy to understand how Saber would get minimal backstory here because the viewer is expected to use the information provided in both UBW and F/Z to fully understand her character. For people looking for a frame-by-frame VN adaption which is 100% true to its source material, I can understand why this would be infuriating. Unfortunately, part of adapting something means taking liberties to make it fit into a new medium. Considering this, I believe the route merging, if done carefully, and interlocking UBW with F/Z are smart directorial moves to make UBW work more as an anime. After all, as an anime adaption, its fate was to be inferior to the VN because it simply cannot be executed with the depth of a novel due to the limitations of the medium. If the limitations of the medium ascertain worse quality, why not take steps to improve the quality in ways the medium certainly allows? This doesn't forgive UBW of its many flaws that weren't necessary, the greatest of which being how badly it's ignored Shirou's development, but the directorial decisions in this episode were spot on. I was so positively thrilled to hear the Emiya remix in the final scene, and I truly hope it's used as a main theme in the following episode when the showdown takes place. And please, PLEASE, ufo, do NOT mess up this fight. The quality of this entire adaption is dependent on how well you adapt this fight. |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
Epicenter said: This is irrelevant to the point you were originally making tho without him doing shady shit |
| This episode was amazing just for that Emiya OST alone. Came buckets when I heard it (and I'm still replaying that scene). I think this one was probably one of the most well done so far. The flashback could've got more stuff going on instead of repetitively killing people like that and there was a lesser impact overall compared to the VN since the atmosphere was more tense there, but they're minor complains, since the former is pretty much the point of Archer's regret and the later I find really hard to think of a way to make it better for an anime adaptation. I didn't care that much about Lancer neither here not in the novel. I mean he's a cool guy, but he pretty much has 3-4 good moments and he just dies (and this is the best route for his character). He's still not as bad as Caster or Rider at least. Kotomine's scene was hilarious though: -Kill that girl -I refuse, bastard -Kill yourself The face he made while pleasuring himself with Rin's suffering was delicious too. I know he's a villain and all, but I would become a hero just to protect that smile. The clash of ideals between Archer and Shirou was nicely done and Saber's struggle and look of pity at Archer was emotional (she looked really cute in that flashback too, not as much as Rin, but still cute). Honorable mention again to EMIYA OST, they just played that scene wonderfully. I still think Kiritsugu's Time Alter and Kenji Kawaii versions are better though, but this doesn't disappoint. Looking forward to next episode, which along with this one is my favorite part in the whole novel. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Epicenter said: This is irrelevant to the point you were originally making tho without him doing shady shit I'd assume Saber would consider such deeds as shady, considering one made her look dishonorable and made it so she never finished her warrior battle, and the other breaks what she was fighting for in general. |
| Jaywalker. |
Neelix said: Did you even read Fate, or fact she spends the entire time trying to Leroy into battles, (some blatantly obvious traps), as she continually tries to achieve her own wish. In fact the whole point of her character and her wish is that she's extremely selfish, she wants to wipe out an entire countries history, because she made a mistake. it's what Shirou tries to beat over her head the entire route. Lel, such wrong. I'm sure you have no idea about her A+ rank luck which allowed her to ally with **** and ****** as well as ******* and **********. She wasn't destroying the country's history. She was destroying hers. I'm sure you don't realise that her legend doesn't effect present at all. She's erasing herself for everyone else. She's become a martyr for her people. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
damastah said: WAD1992 said: SEE dis guy GETS IT !!! anyway .... yes it could have been better i guess >_> But does he know that him meeting archa is also development for shirou. FUK man , he doesn't HAVE to JUST talk to himself to get developed !!! talkin to archa is also proactive and more interesting. |
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Epicenter said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: This is irrelevant to the point you were originally making tho I'd assume Saber would consider such deeds as shady, considering one made her look dishonorable and made it so she never finished her warrior battle, and the other breaks what she was fighting for in general. FSN Saber is NOT a chivalryfag. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
Epicenter said: I'd assume Saber would consider such deeds as shady, considering one made her look dishonorable and made it so she never finished her warrior battle, and the other breaks what she was fighting for in general. I wouldn't call it shady so much as plainly antagonizing. She didn't have much problems with him prior to those events,despite him ignoring her all the time. |
WAD1992 said: damastah said: But does he know that him meeting archa is also development for shirou. FUK man , he doesn't HAVE to JUST talk to himself to get developed !!! talkin to archa is also proactive and more interesting. You just said yourself posts ago that Archer got more dev than Shirou this ep. That alone should say something. In the previous eps where they could've just went all ham with the Shirou dev, they DIDN'T. And seeing how they've built up Archer, it's kinda hurrdurr that they can't give Shirou his due as well since you know, and this has been said 1 million times, he's the MC. |
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Darkmoq said: Neelix said: Saber doesn't care that much about Rin, The reason why she watching this fight because that fight is extremely important to her, she and Shirou and very similar individuals, and thus his end and realisations in very close to her own. They both but the ideal above themselves, hers ended in ruin, she wants to see how his ends. If you hadn't noticed by now, Saber as HS is very selfish human being, she just wants to her ends, or things pertaining to. Answer is the name of this episode and this part of the VN and basically the entire point, Archer is questioning his entire existence, choices in life and worth, through asking his previous self, Shirou like you probably figured out will give him an answer. Thank you. My guess is that many people will disagree with the notion that Servanto Seiba is a selfish being but her actions do seem to suggest a casual disregard for Rin's safety. The whole point of Saber is that she is selfish as a parallel to Archer's actions here. She is not thinking straight. She is focusing on one aspect of her journey and disregarding everything else. She IS selfish. That is the point of her character. |
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mira-nyan said: Epicenter said: I'd assume Saber would consider such deeds as shady, considering one made her look dishonorable and made it so she never finished her warrior battle, and the other breaks what she was fighting for in general. FSN Saber is NOT a chivalryfag. Considering how they use flashbacks scenes to Fate Zero I personally consider that they want fans to consider Fate Zero canon compared to the VN anime wise. That's my view, so Saber from Fate Zero to me is more relevant than whatever Saber was in the VN. |
| Jaywalker. |
| Someone needs to photoshop archer onto the COD black ops cover. That is basically what he does in the anime. Actually isn't the whole point of black ops going back to battles in history and killing people who aren't 'muricans-it's perfect. |
Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
Epicenter said: mira-nyan said: FSN Saber is NOT a chivalryfag. Considering how they use flashbacks scenes to Fate Zero I personally consider that they want fans to consider Fate Zero canon compared to the VN anime wise. That's my view, so Saber from Fate Zero to me is more relevant than whatever Saber was in the VN. FZ Saber is based on FSN Saber. FSN Saber is always relevant. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
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