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Sep 19, 2014 12:35 AM
#41
I'll list one and see how you're gonna act: Kuma sending SH to exact locations, knowing the exact coordinates, means not only that the world has been charted, but people can actually navigate via coordinates. Not only does that render the Log Poses useless, but it contradicts with the idea that you can't go around without them. |
rodacSep 19, 2014 8:45 PM
End Zionazism |
Sep 19, 2014 1:08 AM
#42
Mikasa said: Fantasee said: Mikasa said: Fantasee said: Mikasa said: If you're not interested in a discussion and gonna act all dismissive and close-minded then I won't even bother. Rather discuss them with a more reasonable person. I just said I'm curious and that I'd like you to name them. That's literally the opposite of dismissive and close-minded. Yeah except for the part where you dismissed them as (forgot, didn't pay attention) and other remarks without even knowing which plot holes I was referring to. Telling me to list them just to reiterate what you said is not worth it. I said that's the probable scenario. The key word is probable, which means I wasn't talking in absolutes. Nice attempt to spin my words though. I wanted you to list them so I could attempt to refute them. I'm not just going to look at your list of supposed plotholes and plug my ears. I'll try to explain to you why I believe they aren't. But if you don't want to name them, that's fine too I guess. Doesn't change the fact that your behavour was dismissive fanboyism. I'll list one and see how you're gonna act: Kuma sending SH to exact locations, knowing the exact coordinates, means not only that the world has been charted, but people can actually navigate via coordinates. Not only does that render the Log Poses useless, but it contradicts with the idea that you can't go around without them. It always existed the eternal poses! It was never said that it didn't existed any chart of parts of the world/of the grand line. In reality it was never said that there wasn't a chart of the world. The only thing said was that Nami wanted to chart all the world. Kuma ability was presented as the ability to send people to a place of his knowledge. How is that harder to believe than a guy with rubber body? He did something like that way in Thriller Bark, did you thought that was a plot hole when he sent Perona to her "Vacation"? Also you're confusing location with navigation. You may know where someplace his, their exact coordinates, but when you're navigating with a vehicle that can go astray due to external forces, like ships and planes, you need to have a reference all the time, and so that is why a compass is needed and used. Not because the coordinates aren't known! There was never said that the coordinates of the places weren't known. In reality the countries of the world government have close relationships, they even have a meeting every some years(I believe is 4, but I'm not sure). Is hard to believe that the countries don't know the locations of each others. The locations are only not known to the Strawhat and to us the readers. Not to the rest of the people. Given that Kuma ability doesn't go directly to the place and it doesn't go astray, than it doesn't need any kind of compass, to send somebody there. |
bigivelfhqSep 19, 2014 1:14 AM
Sep 19, 2014 1:20 AM
#43
@big I know and agree, but while Nami stated that the GL cannot be simply navigated by coordination due to said forces, now... if it were a matter of reference points/levels, and Kuma's ability can defy said external forces and accomplish such great accuracy, then he could really send people anywhere. Including... And are calm belts really charted from the inside? Skyislands too? Not to mention the Cross-Redline sending. And sensing Perona from a ship, how did he know his exact location, the ship did move iirc, does he have GPS or something? Nami has drawn many maps, she must know some coordinates. There must be some books and maps over the years concerning SOME islands at least. Not all books were in Ohara you know |
MikasaSep 19, 2014 1:24 AM
End Zionazism |
Sep 19, 2014 2:26 AM
#44
Mikasa said: @big I know and agree, but while Nami stated that the GL cannot be simply navigated by coordination due to said forces, now... if it were a matter of reference points/levels, and Kuma's ability can defy said external forces and accomplish such great accuracy, then he could really send people anywhere. Including... And are calm belts really charted from the inside? Skyislands too? Not to mention the Cross-Redline sending. And sensing Perona from a ship, how did he know his exact location, the ship did move iirc, does he have GPS or something? Nami has drawn many maps, she must know some coordinates. There must be some books and maps over the years concerning SOME islands at least. Not all books were in Ohara you know The forces I'm talking is wind and sea currents! Still today people use compasses(normally the computer automatically makes the calculations and tells where the boat is and where is going) even when knowing the coordinates. Crocus(not Nami) explained that Grand Line can't be traveled with a normal compass because it uses magnetic field and the Grand Line is full of them. That has nothing to do with coordinates. The reason a compass is used when traveling by boat is not because of location(coordinates), but because of the direction of the vehicle. Kuma could send people anywhere. Anywhere that he knew about! And the important word here is "could". I don't see the problem of Kuma discovering where Raftel is and still not sending nobody there. You know, a person ability to do something doesn't mean he has to do it. Also note that the only people that know where Raftel is, only people that said that it existed, are Gold D. Roger and his crew, something that Kuma didn't made part of. Saying that is a plot hole that Kuma can send people to Raftel and doesn't do it, is the same to say that Rayleigh, Shanks and Buggy(Is possible that Shanks and Buggy didn't know the place because they were apprentices and maybe didn't went with crew at that time) know where Raftel is and not going there or sending somebody there is a plot hole. Note that Kuma was only helping the Straw Hat to escape from Kizaru. About the calm belts. The Marines travel trough them, the Kuja pirates too and probably the World Government as well(including the tenryuubito). Rayleigh knew where the Amazon Lily was, he even went there swimming and he and Hancock knew where the island Luffy trained Haki was. Most certainly there is a chart, and if there isn't one, isn't hard to make one. Some Sky Islands certainly are. Not only in Skypiea people knew where others Sky Islands were, but when Nami was with that old guy, he knew where other sky islands were. It was shown in the SBS and maybe even in her section of the story when she was there. What the problem of sending somebody across the redline? You know that it isn't indefinitely high right? Fisher Tiger climbed it with his bare hands. Also the specificity of how Kuma would send somebody across the redline isn't known, because we didn't saw him doing it even once. You're nitpicking. Thriller bark was stopped at that moment just drifting, they were in the Florian Triangle(known location) and to had to it Kuma is a Pacifista. Even without that there wouldn't exist a problem. Do you know with is suspension of disbelief. Kuma has a devil fruit that permits him to send people to a certain location. The way of how he sends them is not described. So we readers just believe it works. he doesn't even need to know where he is right now. Discussing the degree of precision and the kind of information that he would need to send someone to a certain place is certainly nitpicking. Coordinates of what? She lived all her life in the East Blue, an Ocean. Are you saying that she should have known coordinates of the Grand line? You know that the Grand Line is inhabited by a lot of countries and people right? Like Drum island, Alabasta, Water 7 and connected islands, Sabaondy Archipelago. Of course there are maps and coordinates for the islands of the Grand Line. Robin when she was villain she even knew maritime routes to go to Alabasta, and even knew about Little Garden. Also, During the Timeskip she was studying in the Sky Island about the islands in the New World. She studied at least about the island that rained permanent Thunders, that was shown. |
Sep 19, 2014 3:30 AM
#45
Sep 19, 2014 3:45 AM
#46
Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. |
Sep 19, 2014 4:42 AM
#47
Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. 2/10. But you can "Tryyy againnn!!" |
"Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Sep 19, 2014 5:52 AM
#48
Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. When people try to list One Piece plotholes and all they can come up with is this petty stuff - it really makes me proud of Oda. |
Sep 19, 2014 5:58 AM
#49
bigivelfhq said: Mikasa said: @big I know and agree, but while Nami stated that the GL cannot be simply navigated by coordination due to said forces, now... if it were a matter of reference points/levels, and Kuma's ability can defy said external forces and accomplish such great accuracy, then he could really send people anywhere. Including... And are calm belts really charted from the inside? Skyislands too? Not to mention the Cross-Redline sending. And sensing Perona from a ship, how did he know his exact location, the ship did move iirc, does he have GPS or something? Nami has drawn many maps, she must know some coordinates. There must be some books and maps over the years concerning SOME islands at least. Not all books were in Ohara you know The forces I'm talking is wind and sea currents! Still today people use compasses(normally the computer automatically makes the calculations and tells where the boat is and where is going) even when knowing the coordinates. Crocus(not Nami) explained that Grand Line can't be traveled with a normal compass because it uses magnetic field and the Grand Line is full of them. That has nothing to do with coordinates. The reason a compass is used when traveling by boat is not because of location(coordinates), but because of the direction of the vehicle. Kuma could send people anywhere. Anywhere that he knew about! And the important word here is "could". I don't see the problem of Kuma discovering where Raftel is and still not sending nobody there. You know, a person ability to do something doesn't mean he has to do it. Also note that the only people that know where Raftel is, only people that said that it existed, are Gold D. Roger and his crew, something that Kuma didn't made part of. Saying that is a plot hole that Kuma can send people to Raftel and doesn't do it, is the same to say that Rayleigh, Shanks and Buggy(Is possible that Shanks and Buggy didn't know the place because they were apprentices and maybe didn't went with crew at that time) know where Raftel is and not going there or sending somebody there is a plot hole. Note that Kuma was only helping the Straw Hat to escape from Kizaru. About the calm belts. The Marines travel trough them, the Kuja pirates too and probably the World Government as well(including the tenryuubito). Rayleigh knew where the Amazon Lily was, he even went there swimming and he and Hancock knew where the island Luffy trained Haki was. Most certainly there is a chart, and if there isn't one, isn't hard to make one. Some Sky Islands certainly are. Not only in Skypiea people knew where others Sky Islands were, but when Nami was with that old guy, he knew where other sky islands were. It was shown in the SBS and maybe even in her section of the story when she was there. What the problem of sending somebody across the redline? You know that it isn't indefinitely high right? Fisher Tiger climbed it with his bare hands. Also the specificity of how Kuma would send somebody across the redline isn't known, because we didn't saw him doing it even once. You're nitpicking. Thriller bark was stopped at that moment just drifting, they were in the Florian Triangle(known location) and to had to it Kuma is a Pacifista. Even without that there wouldn't exist a problem. Do you know with is suspension of disbelief. Kuma has a devil fruit that permits him to send people to a certain location. The way of how he sends them is not described. So we readers just believe it works. he doesn't even need to know where he is right now. Discussing the degree of precision and the kind of information that he would need to send someone to a certain place is certainly nitpicking. Coordinates of what? She lived all her life in the East Blue, an Ocean. Are you saying that she should have known coordinates of the Grand line? You know that the Grand Line is inhabited by a lot of countries and people right? Like Drum island, Alabasta, Water 7 and connected islands, Sabaondy Archipelago. Of course there are maps and coordinates for the islands of the Grand Line. Robin when she was villain she even knew maritime routes to go to Alabasta, and even knew about Little Garden. Also, During the Timeskip she was studying in the Sky Island about the islands in the New World. She studied at least about the island that rained permanent Thunders, that was shown. I guess you're right, except for 3 points: 1- The major difference here is not the ease of access but necessity. Without the Log Pose it would be near impossible to land on the islands of GL by navigating, by calculating speed, direction and relative distance. That was the point emphasized. 2- Kuma, if his power were to be as we described it, then he's have to know the exact location. 3- general follow up to #2, for coordinates, they need to know the relative distance from one point to the other, if all these islands so far apart were charted, it would mean the a great portion of the world has been detailed very well, that in itself is not a plot hole, but the fact goes against what was establised so far; great connections like these would minimize the distance (metaphorically i.e globalization), there would be no time difference as we's see in Little Garden, and such. The entire establishment of the GL being this untamed place seems off with that in mind. As for Nami, she doesn't gave access to any info about GL? Hasn't any passed somewhere? Redline's issue, it's about being able to send them both(or four)-ways. The traversibility of the world is very shaky, is it almost completely charted? Is it Not at all? Or almost there? Etc? |
End Zionazism |
Sep 19, 2014 12:09 PM
#50
Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. 1) Mistranslation. 2) Mistranslation. 3) Just because somebody survived something that they should have died from does not make it a plot hole. That's ridiculous. 4) http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Kuuigosu 5) Not even close to being a plot hole. 6) Same as above. |
Sep 19, 2014 2:43 PM
#51
Mikasa said: bigivelfhq said: Mikasa said: @big I know and agree, but while Nami stated that the GL cannot be simply navigated by coordination due to said forces, now... if it were a matter of reference points/levels, and Kuma's ability can defy said external forces and accomplish such great accuracy, then he could really send people anywhere. Including... And are calm belts really charted from the inside? Skyislands too? Not to mention the Cross-Redline sending. And sensing Perona from a ship, how did he know his exact location, the ship did move iirc, does he have GPS or something? Nami has drawn many maps, she must know some coordinates. There must be some books and maps over the years concerning SOME islands at least. Not all books were in Ohara you know The forces I'm talking is wind and sea currents! Still today people use compasses(normally the computer automatically makes the calculations and tells where the boat is and where is going) even when knowing the coordinates. Crocus(not Nami) explained that Grand Line can't be traveled with a normal compass because it uses magnetic field and the Grand Line is full of them. That has nothing to do with coordinates. The reason a compass is used when traveling by boat is not because of location(coordinates), but because of the direction of the vehicle. Kuma could send people anywhere. Anywhere that he knew about! And the important word here is "could". I don't see the problem of Kuma discovering where Raftel is and still not sending nobody there. You know, a person ability to do something doesn't mean he has to do it. Also note that the only people that know where Raftel is, only people that said that it existed, are Gold D. Roger and his crew, something that Kuma didn't made part of. Saying that is a plot hole that Kuma can send people to Raftel and doesn't do it, is the same to say that Rayleigh, Shanks and Buggy(Is possible that Shanks and Buggy didn't know the place because they were apprentices and maybe didn't went with crew at that time) know where Raftel is and not going there or sending somebody there is a plot hole. Note that Kuma was only helping the Straw Hat to escape from Kizaru. About the calm belts. The Marines travel trough them, the Kuja pirates too and probably the World Government as well(including the tenryuubito). Rayleigh knew where the Amazon Lily was, he even went there swimming and he and Hancock knew where the island Luffy trained Haki was. Most certainly there is a chart, and if there isn't one, isn't hard to make one. Some Sky Islands certainly are. Not only in Skypiea people knew where others Sky Islands were, but when Nami was with that old guy, he knew where other sky islands were. It was shown in the SBS and maybe even in her section of the story when she was there. What the problem of sending somebody across the redline? You know that it isn't indefinitely high right? Fisher Tiger climbed it with his bare hands. Also the specificity of how Kuma would send somebody across the redline isn't known, because we didn't saw him doing it even once. You're nitpicking. Thriller bark was stopped at that moment just drifting, they were in the Florian Triangle(known location) and to had to it Kuma is a Pacifista. Even without that there wouldn't exist a problem. Do you know with is suspension of disbelief. Kuma has a devil fruit that permits him to send people to a certain location. The way of how he sends them is not described. So we readers just believe it works. he doesn't even need to know where he is right now. Discussing the degree of precision and the kind of information that he would need to send someone to a certain place is certainly nitpicking. Coordinates of what? She lived all her life in the East Blue, an Ocean. Are you saying that she should have known coordinates of the Grand line? You know that the Grand Line is inhabited by a lot of countries and people right? Like Drum island, Alabasta, Water 7 and connected islands, Sabaondy Archipelago. Of course there are maps and coordinates for the islands of the Grand Line. Robin when she was villain she even knew maritime routes to go to Alabasta, and even knew about Little Garden. Also, During the Timeskip she was studying in the Sky Island about the islands in the New World. She studied at least about the island that rained permanent Thunders, that was shown. if his power were to be as we described it. It took me a lot of searching, but I finally found the problem: You made up your own version of the ability. You can thank me later ;) On a serious note though, don't you ever get tired of this? It took a single sentence of your gibberish to destroy your entire essay. |
"Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Sep 19, 2014 8:56 PM
#52
Mod Note: I've removed a lot of the off-topic chat about "Will you/won't you post a plot hole, and added a Spoiler warning to the Thread Title. Discussing plot holes always treads pretty close to posting spoilers, but since I don't follow OP I don't know which points are spoilers. If you think something that has already been posted should be tagged, please report it. If you're posting something that is probably a spoiler please take the five seconds to tag it. |
Please don't feed the trolls! In my next life I want to collide at the corner with the cute transfer student carrying a piece of toast in her mouth...rodac |
Sep 20, 2014 11:46 AM
#53
RedRoseFring said: Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. 9/10. Now you can "Smiiile againnn!!! Thank you ;-) On a more serious note, I think that you should stop with this stuff, I don’t know what problem you have with me but if you consider me to be a troll, you can always ignore me. Believe it or not I like One piece very much but this thread asked about our opinions on current one piece compared to the previous one so I gave mine which was mainly made of negative points because I like it less than before. Of course if I’m asked to tell my general opinion or the things I like about it then I will. I know that One piece being a popular series is a magnet to troll/haters but discarding someone’s opinion just because he/she criticizes something in One piece is not the thing to do but makes you look like a fanboy( I’m not saying that you are one but judging from your arguments in the thread about One piece’s rank, I’m not the only one to whom you do this and you even called someone immature there). Also, the sarcastic/superior/condescending tone you use is not the best for discussion. If you are still bitter about that hiatus discussion then I think I already apologized for it. Rather than throwing baits everywhere, I believe the right thing to do would be to either counter my points if you believe they are wrong, acknowledge their truth if you can’t disprove them or completely ignore them if you believe I’m trolling. That’s what I would do. But of course you are not me and so you can do as you please. |
Sep 20, 2014 11:51 AM
#54
Dahaka_ said: Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. When people try to list One Piece plotholes and all they can come up with is this petty stuff - it really makes me proud of Oda. - So… you agree that they are plot holes? - You being proud of Oda is normal since he created your favorite anime/manga. However, if the reason for that is the smaller number of plot holes then I can definitely not share that sentiment due to the way the one piece world is designed. There are absolutely no rules in one piece. Any thing that looks like that would be changed whenever the plot demands it. For example, the laws of the devil fruit have been changed so many times I wouldn’t even be surprised if at one point Oda introduces a user that can swim. Also, One piece uses the trope called nonesensoleum which makes things that would have otherwise be plot holes as just bullshit like Usopp taking a 4 ton hit without dying despite his low durability. This greatly cheapens it in my opinion. Let me ask you this question: You have two manga, the first one has very strict rules and takes itself seriously by limiting gag feats for comedy purposes only and you discover that it has 1000+ chapters and only about 10 plot holes. Would you be amazed? I certainly would. The second one is about a sleeping boy and takes place in his dream. He has to find a way to wake up and that is the goal of the story. Given that this story takes place in a dream, you can have houses dancing and singing, clouds being made of popcorn, cars moving upside down etc and none of these would be a plot hole because, well it’s a dream. You then discover that it has only two plot holes after 1000+ chapters. Would you be amazed? I definitely wouldn’t. The first is an analogy to Naruto and the second to One piece. That’s why I consider that Kishi gets too much undeserved criticism/hate for his plot holes compared to Oda since his world is more complex and serious, hence more prone to plot holes even with the same amount of effort.(There aren’t even so many to begin with, just haters inflating the numbers) - Sanji is a crew member and so a plot hole involving his power is not what I would call “petty”. By that logic you may just consider any plot hole petty. Maybe that’s what you do with One piece anyway. - The fact that Oda always tries to hand wave these issues/plot holes in interviews/SBS shows that he definitely doesn’t minimize them( like in the mr 3’s example above). At least, it shows that he cares for his work/fans which is indeed something to be proud of. |
Sep 20, 2014 11:58 AM
#55
Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: Pre TS One piece is more enjoyable than post TS imo, at least for the moment. Arcs have become unneccessarily long and the pacing is mind numbingly slow ( this is particularly true for the anime). However, the thing I like the most about one piece is still well executed (world building). I liked the comedy in pre ts op ( the best of any shonen I know) but lately it's become very annoying like one infamous Sanji moment. Overall It's still enjoyable and will probably pick up soon. As for the Plot hole discussion, well Oda should be given credit for creating such a long manga with not too many of them. I can't think of any major one but if we're talking about smaller ones then off the top of my head, there are several I can list: 1- Sanji didn't know that people that eat DF can't swim when he first meets Luffy, but in TB saga he said that he used to read a book about DFs and that he knew about the abilities It gave and weakness they had. 2- Zoro knew in the TB saga what a Samurai is, he doesn't know it anymore.( haven't read this since so it maybe a translation mistake or memory loss or something like that) 3- Pell survives the explosion of a nuke.(the biggest one) 4- Mr.3 floating ( Oda retconned this in an SBS and the anime included a piece of "super floating wood" but the manga has no such thing so it's a manga only plothole). 5- Sanji's diable jambe. This is a plot hole as well as an asspull. The explanation given to it pre ts is that Sanji spins his leg at high speeds which causes their ignition through friction. I know that One piece's world has different laws of Physics but my problem is that there were characters much faster than Sanji back then ( like luffy) so why don't they ignite due to friction too? Post time skip, his power doesn't even make sense so I will just wait for Oda's explanation.( the real explanation not the joke he said about "Sanji's heart"). 6- Where does Nami keep her climatact? Absalom's zombie tailor didn't see it when he undressed her but later she pulls it out of her wedding dress. ( I'm not sure if this is a plot hole. etc. I don't think the Raftel one can be called a plot hole right now for reasons mentioned as well as for the fact that Oda will probably explore it again later. 1) Mistranslation. 2) Mistranslation. 3) Just because somebody survived something that they should have died from does not make it a plot hole. That's ridiculous. 4) http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Kuuigosu 5) Not even close to being a plot hole. 6) Same as above. 1 and 2 are mistranslations? Hmmm I would have to check them back, I’m sure the Sanji one is also in the anime as well. 3- The fact that it doesn’t have an explanation shows that it is a plot hole. It makes no sense for a fodder character to survive a nuke. 4- The wiki source you linked clearly states that the wood was not visible. The fact that the kuusoigu or however it’s spelled never existed in the show before shows that it was retconned. That’s why the anime version included a table iirc. If you see a df user swimming, it is a plot hole. Even if 500 chapters later Oda says it is possible for some to swim, it just means he hand waved/retconned but it’s still a plot hole. The same applies here. Anyway, the explanation was pretty funny so I would let that slide. 5- The power doesn’t make sense within the OP world so I think it’s a plot hole. How does Sanji’s leg not burn? If the fire is caused by friction due to high speeds, why does luffy not ignite as well since he’s faster and hence should have more friction exerted on him. 6- It’s a minor one but I honestly can’t think of an explanation. So unless otherwise proved it’s a… plot hole. So, I agree with your explanations of 2 and 4(kinda), I will check 1, 6 is somewhat insignificant . 3 and 5 are still hanging though. I have a couple others if you have the time to disprove them for me: 7- The devil fruit users are weakened by sea stones and generally anything that has to do with sea. Even sea salt has been shown to weaken them since in Thriller bark when salt is thrown into zombie’s mouth, the shadow moving the corpse is detached and the zombie is purified hence nullifying the devil fruit power of Moria. My problem is how can Luffy and other devil fruit users consume food stuffs containing salt and not be weakened? If this is really a plot hole, then it’s arguably the biggest one alongside Pell since enemies could easily use this weakness against/to poison them but not only do they not use it, it also never weakens devil fruit users. I even remember Sanji specifically using it in one of their meals and Luffy complemented him that it tastes better. So what am I missing here? 8- How did Akainu defeat Ace? Lava can’t do any thing to fire. Are lava and fire in One piece different from our world? If yes, source please. 9- This is not a plot hole but something that I don’t understand. What did Shanks use against the sea king in chapter one? I always thougt it was the death glare trope like what Zoro used to do to fodders back then but I hear a lot of people saying it was haki. My questions are: if it was haki why didn’t Shanks use it to knock down those villains back then? I know he said to WB that he offered his hand to the sea king as a bet on the new generation but even before that he could have prevented that incident from happening. He was surprised when that pirate flew with Luffy and not using it could have cost Luffy’s life. Also, if it’s haki, then what type of Haki is it? People say that it is CoC but conqueror haki ‘s power is to knock out enemies and has never been shown to make them run away like it did to that sea king. So is there any part of the manga where it’s specifically said to be haki or is it just a fan made theory? An unknown type of haki? Or a simple death glare? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole |
Sep 20, 2014 12:22 PM
#56
7. Kairoseki is a 'special' mineral stone that contains the power of sea to weaken the devil fruit power. and it's not like Salt or Sea Water literally weaken DF user, they're only weakened If the lower half of the body is inside the water. 8. Haki. 9. it's Haki, the same feature that always occur on people that under effect of HH is either they're sweating out of fear or Pass Out or sometime both. |
Sep 20, 2014 12:49 PM
#57
tr1ckst3r said: 7. Kairoseki is a 'special' mineral stone that contains the power of sea to weaken the devil fruit power. and it's not like Salt or Sea Water literally weaken DF user, they're only weakened If the lower half of the body is inside the water. Yes, with sea water you need to be half immersed but that is not the case with sea stone and salt from the example I mentioned as well as others ( like the fact that df users can only use sea stone weapons if they are not in contact with the part of the weapon that has the sea stone) 8. Haki. ??? 9. it's Haki, the same feature that always occur on people that under effect of HH is either they're sweating out of fear or Pass Out or sometime both. Which type of haki is it then? |
Sep 20, 2014 1:05 PM
#58
Sep 20, 2014 5:44 PM
#59
^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea. Btw that salt thing was anime filler. Shanks was said to have Conquerer's Haki anyway. |
Sep 20, 2014 5:50 PM
#60
tr1ckst3r said: Not only that but DFs themselves have their own weaknesses and strengths against the others.Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. "As noted by Crocodile, there is no way to tell how Devil Fruit powers will fare when pitted against one other.[11] A Devil Fruit user who normally dominates all other powers can sometimes be brought down by a power considered "weak" in comparison; one such example is the Gomu Gomu no Mi unexpectedly withstanding the Goro Goro no Mi's powers, the Doru Doru no Mi unexpectedly holding back the Doku Doku no Mi's powers and Akainu's Magu Magu no Mi dealing a fatal blow to Ace despite his Mera Mera no Mi due to an order of superiority. Another surprise also came when the Mera Mera no Mi clashed against the Moku Moku no Mi, equalizing with each other, and then later against the Hie Hie no Mi with the same results. " http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_Fruit |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Sep 21, 2014 6:13 AM
#61
tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. Drunk_Samurai said: Shanks was said to have Conquerer's Haki anyway. You people are really confusing me now. I think I would have to rewatch One piece some time in the future |
Sep 21, 2014 6:27 AM
#62
Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. |
Sep 21, 2014 8:10 AM
#63
Agafin said: Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. man you're answering you're own question, there's not even one bit of word that implies salt can weakening DF user, it's just said that Salt hold the power of the sea than can undo the bond between false soul and corpse. and stop analyzing obvious thing too hard since Franky already said it's just like purifying evil spirit in this is the implementation of it. Remember every DF power is unique in its own way depend on how one use it's power. |
Sep 21, 2014 9:35 AM
#64
Agafin said: You have two manga, the first one has very strict rules and takes itself seriously by limiting gag feats for comedy purposes only and you discover that it has 1000+ chapters and only about 10 plot holes. Would you be amazed? I certainly would. The second one is about a sleeping boy and takes place in his dream. He has to find a way to wake up and that is the goal of the story. Given that this story takes place in a dream, you can have houses dancing and singing, clouds being made of popcorn, cars moving upside down etc and none of these would be a plot hole because, well it’s a dream. You then discover that it has only two plot holes after 1000+ chapters. Would you be amazed? I definitely wouldn’t. The first is an analogy to Naruto and the second to One piece. That’s why I consider that Kishi gets too much undeserved criticism/hate for his plot holes compared to Oda since his world is more complex and serious, hence more prone to plot holes even with the same amount of effort.(There aren’t even so many to begin with, just haters inflating the numbers. I don't even know how I missed this post. What you described for the first one sounds way more like Naruto than One Piece. Besides that Kishimoto deserves hate for his plot holes. They actually directly effect the plot of Naruto. Like Sasuke being able to summon Manda when he was fucking flat out stated to be out of chakra. Agafin said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. Drunk_Samurai said: Shanks was said to have Conquerer's Haki anyway. You people are really confusing me now. I think I would have to rewatch One piece some time in the future Read the Marineford arc again. When Luffy used his they said that Whitebeard and Shanks both had it. Agafin said: Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. I said the other two were mistranslations. That's just inaccurate though as what tr1ckst3r said. It only applies to Moria's zombies. |
Sep 21, 2014 11:58 AM
#65
Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. I said the other two were mistranslations. That's just inaccurate though as what tr1ckst3r said. It only applies to Moria's zombies. The thing with the salt is one of two things: - That is Brook conclusion and he his completely wrong. Being that made purposely. Note how is only shown as a theory and not an absolute truth. By the time we get to Vegapunk all of that must be explained. Salt only works with Moria, and salt being used to defeat evil and Zombies is a real world Myth. It would make a lot more sense if it had to do with Moria Devil fruit weakness and nothing as general as devil's fruit weakness. Just like water is Crocodile weakness. - Brook is partially correct. Not every salt is originated at sea. So only "Sea Salt" works in Moria zombies. They were lucky that Moria kitchen had sea salt. Moria and/or his underlings are stupid for having sea salt in the ship. |
bigivelfhqSep 21, 2014 12:01 PM
Sep 21, 2014 1:50 PM
#66
The "fairies" had the same objective as the Straw Hats so what's the matter? shimolis said: But I bet that Luffy will give the Flare Flare fruit to Rebecca, which will be disappointing This is why people should read the manga, I'm not even going to bother myself replying cuz this is not worth it. This is what I find disappointing. One Piece is still the same One Piece we've always watched. |
Sep 21, 2014 5:36 PM
#67
I enjoyed One Piece more before every arc had to be super long. For instance I loved East Blue One Piece and pre Albasta. Of course the long arcs are amazing too, I just think the show needs to fit in a couple smaller arcs here and there, for example the smaller arcs before Alabasta. Time-Skip One Piece is pretteh good. I'm not getting the same emotions and nostalgia feel but its good nonetheless. I do not like Nami, Chopper, and Robin's new character designs. Robin's is incredibly generic, Nami looks like a slut, and Chopper needs to stop getting damn smaller and cuter. Am I the only one who enjoyed Chopper's old fugly look? |
Previously: BlueXRam |
Sep 21, 2014 5:47 PM
#68
Sep 21, 2014 5:51 PM
#69
TheRealDeal51 said: I think that old one piece was better, but it has nothing to do with the characters and plot it is just that the pacing of the episodes has been rubbish since Punk Hazard, they need to take a hiatus or something to allow the Manga to get some new material. Or a decent long filler arc. |
Previously: BlueXRam |
Sep 23, 2014 6:22 AM
#70
Man, this thread is so off topic lol. Anyway, sorry for the late reply. tr1ckst3r said: Agafin said: [/spoiler][spoiler] Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. man you're answering you're own question, there's not even one bit of word that implies salt can weakening DF user, it's just said that Salt hold the power of the sea than can undo the bond between false soul and corpse. and stop analyzing obvious thing too hard since Franky already said it's just like purifying evil spirit in this is the implementation of it. Remember every DF power is unique in its own way depend on how one use it's power. Isn't the power of the sea what weakens devil fruit users? Sea water weakens them because it has this power, same as Karioseki since it's said to have the same "wavelength as the sea". Yes, there are different DF powers and in this case purifying the evil spirit=weakening devil fruit power. You don't expect Franky to say that it will prevent Luffy from stretching when he is talking abuot Moria, do you? I don't see what I'm overanalysing here. Brook didn't say that it works because they are zombies but because the source of the power is the devil fruit. He also said that it works because salt has the power of the sea not because "it's just magic" which is what you want me to believe. You are the one saying it works only on them without backing it up with up with canon evidence. That's pretty baseless. Maybe it's just me. Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: You have two manga, the first one has very strict rules and takes itself seriously by limiting gag feats for comedy purposes only and you discover that it has 1000+ chapters and only about 10 plot holes. Would you be amazed? I certainly would. The second one is about a sleeping boy and takes place in his dream. He has to find a way to wake up and that is the goal of the story. Given that this story takes place in a dream, you can have houses dancing and singing, clouds being made of popcorn, cars moving upside down etc and none of these would be a plot hole because, well it’s a dream. You then discover that it has only two plot holes after 1000+ chapters. Would you be amazed? I definitely wouldn’t. The first is an analogy to Naruto and the second to One piece. That’s why I consider that Kishi gets too much undeserved criticism/hate for his plot holes compared to Oda since his world is more complex and serious, hence more prone to plot holes even with the same amount of effort.(There aren’t even so many to begin with, just haters inflating the numbers. I don't even know how I missed this post. Lmao. Rereading my own post makes me laugh for some reason. It seems like I was pretty angry about something while writing that. Drunk_Samurai said: What you described for the first one sounds way more like Naruto than One Piece. It seems like you confused your words here. Did you intend to type that the first one sounds more like One piece? In which case I would ask what are those "strict rules" in One piece? Drunk_Samurai said: Besides that Kishimoto deserves hate for his plot holes. They actually directly effect the plot of Naruto. Like Sasuke being able to summon Manda when he was fucking flat out stated to be out of chakra. I agree with you that it was quite ridiculous but more because of the ridiculously short time Sasuke took to do all that. But that was kind of my point. One piece has just as ridiculous things ( like a FREAKING SKELETON being alive) but it is not absurd due to how the world is designed. That's the trope called "running on nonesenseolum". Now that I think about it, it takes some amount of cleverness to do that since in he made his world in such a way that nonesense makes sense. Props to him for that. Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. Drunk_Samurai said: Shanks was said to have Conquerer's Haki anyway. You people are really confusing me now. I think I would have to rewatch One piece some time in the future Read the Marineford arc again. When Luffy used his they said that Whitebeard and Shanks both had it. Another reason to read marineford? No way I can deny that lol. Thank you Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: Drunk_Samurai said: [spoiler]^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. I said the other two were mistranslations. That's just inaccurate though as what tr1ckst3r said. It only applies to Moria's zombies.[/spoiler] Read above. I have another small question ( not a plot hole). What do you think will happen if the dressrossa puppets are plunged in sea water? Since the source of their power is a df do you think they will cease action? bigivelfhq said: Drunk_Samurai said: Agafin said: Drunk_Samurai said: ^What he said. #7 was only a weakness for the zombies, not a Devil Fruit users weakness. I don't even know how you could have gotten that idea.. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html http://www.mangareader.net/103-2563-6/one-piece/chapter-456.html Now you can't use the mistranslation card. Brook said: The source of the zombie's ability is originally the devil's fruit. Since the salt holds the power of the sea it undoes the bond between the false soul and the corpse. I don't think there are two ways of interpreting that statement. The bolded parts clearly show that salt works because it has the power of the sea and hence nullifies the devil fruit power. Luffy, Ace, other fruit users should also be affected by it when they consume it.. I said the other two were mistranslations. That's just inaccurate though as what tr1ckst3r said. It only applies to Moria's zombies. The thing with the salt is one of two things: - That is Brook conclusion and he his completely wrong. Being that made purposely. Note how is only shown as a theory and not an absolute truth. By the time we get to Vegapunk all of that must be explained. Salt only works with Moria, and salt being used to defeat evil and Zombies is a real world Myth. It would make a lot more sense if it had to do with Moria Devil fruit weakness and nothing as general as devil's fruit weakness. Just like water is Crocodile weakness. - Brook is partially correct. Not every salt is originated at sea. So only "Sea Salt" works in Moria zombies. They were lucky that Moria kitchen had sea salt. Moria and/or his underlings are stupid for having sea salt in the ship. Nice explanation. I am almost convinced except for three little things: 1- I know the myth about salt and zombies. However, assuming that the world of One piece has the same rules as our world is like assuming that they have the same laws of science which is of course wrong unless otherwise stated by the autor / in the manga. 2- An author can only make a character lie/ be wrong only if it serves a particular purpose. That arc is finished and what Brook said worked so it is true by default. By that logic of a character lying then we could say that Luffy swimming and using his power easily in the sea is not a plot hole because for all that we know the rules of devil fruits is wrong which as I stated above is simply a retcon and bad writing and doesn't prevent the plot hole fom being one if it has happened. 3- Luffy has eaten sea foods that should contain sea salt so that is still a moot point. Anyway, I will take your advice and from now on I will consider this a loophole rather than a plot hole until Dr Vegapunk's explanation if any. OT: Another thing that I like less about Post time skip One piece is the character designs. I prefer their previous ones :/ |
AgafinSep 23, 2014 7:03 AM
Sep 23, 2014 8:52 AM
#71
tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. |
End Zionazism |
Sep 23, 2014 9:02 AM
#72
BlueXRam said: They should have just animate the damn cover pages every once in a while.TheRealDeal51 said: I think that old one piece was better, but it has nothing to do with the characters and plot it is just that the pacing of the episodes has been rubbish since Punk Hazard, they need to take a hiatus or something to allow the Manga to get some new material. Or a decent long filler arc. Mikasa said: Magic.tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. |
Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
Sep 23, 2014 9:25 AM
#73
ToG25thBaam said: BlueXRam said: They should have just animate the damn cover pages every once in a while.TheRealDeal51 said: I think that old one piece was better, but it has nothing to do with the characters and plot it is just that the pacing of the episodes has been rubbish since Punk Hazard, they need to take a hiatus or something to allow the Manga to get some new material. Or a decent long filler arc. Mikasa said: Magic.tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. No, it was explained! Haki is the will(Literally, Haki means will in Japanese), and with Armament Haki you hit directly at others "presence/will", even if their body isn't solid or has a strange quality about it, it doesn't matter to armament Haki that is a physical manifestation of Will. Is not that Haki is specifically made to fight against Devil Fruit powers, but in essence it doesn't cares what happens in the "material realm" so that advantage of devil fruits is nullified. Note it isn't only good to use Armament Haki to Logias, but also other types like Paramecia. Luffy is rubber and so attacks do a lot less damage than normally, but with Haki an attack makes the full damage. |
bigivelfhqSep 23, 2014 9:28 AM
Sep 23, 2014 9:40 AM
#74
Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. |
Sep 23, 2014 9:45 AM
#75
tr1ckst3r said: You're forgetting possibly even Smoker and Dragon back in Logtown.Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Sep 23, 2014 9:53 AM
#76
IntroverTurtle said: tr1ckst3r said: You're forgetting possibly even Smoker and Dragon back in Logtown.Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. that one is still Arguably since Dragon just grab somker Jutte. I'm using the most obvious example to make it easier. |
Sep 23, 2014 4:56 PM
#77
tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. 1- luffy isnt logia 2- silvers hitting kizaru isnt foreshadowing, it's the... Asspull? Itself. Uses afterward are the same.... Asspull? Being reused. |
End Zionazism |
Sep 23, 2014 5:31 PM
#78
Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. 1- luffy isnt logia 2- silvers hitting kizaru isnt foreshadowing, it's the... Asspull? Itself. Uses afterward are the same.... Asspull? Being reused. Yeah, One Piece is full of asspull, Devil Fruit is asspull, Grand Line is asspull, Pirate is asspull, everything is asspull in anime, the only thing that wasn't asspull is a Hunter and Nen right? yeah I know. |
Sep 23, 2014 6:14 PM
#79
tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. 1- luffy isnt logia 2- silvers hitting kizaru isnt foreshadowing, it's the... Asspull? Itself. Uses afterward are the same.... Asspull? Being reused. Yeah, One Piece is full of asspull, Devil Fruit is asspull, Grand Line is asspull, Pirate is asspull, everything is asspull in anime, the only thing that wasn't asspull is a Hunter and Nen right? yeah I know. Good. You finally learned Mikasa's way of thinking. Now you won't bother anymore, will you? Sometimes the best course of action is to just ignore. |
"Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Sep 23, 2014 7:04 PM
#80
It's okay, once they make an MMO with Haki it will be worthy. |
Sep 23, 2014 11:21 PM
#81
tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: tr1ckst3r said: Armament Haki, the one that able people to touch Logia Type DF user. How does it even do that? It was kinda out of nowhere. it's already foreshadowed that there's actually a way to hurt Devil Fruit Power and it's Haki. Enies Lobby Arc, Garp punch Luffy and "it's Hurt" Sabaody Arc, Rayleigh stop Kizaru. Amazon Lily Arc, Snake Sister hurt Luffy using Haki. Marineford. Jozu and Marco use Haki to hit Aokiji and Kizaru, a Logia user. so yeah, it's out of nowhere. 1- luffy isnt logia 2- silvers hitting kizaru isnt foreshadowing, it's the... Asspull? Itself. Uses afterward are the same.... Asspull? Being reused. Yeah, One Piece is full of asspull, Devil Fruit is asspull, Grand Line is asspull, Pirate is asspull, everything is asspull in anime, the only thing that wasn't asspull is a Hunter and Nen right? yeah I know. DF was asspull too? But you're right on the other ones. |
End Zionazism |
Sep 24, 2014 12:13 AM
#82
The skill of Armament Haki is to be able to hurt a DF owner with physical hits ignoring the protection/intangibility brought by their DF. Hitting Logia is the most clear and commented benefit simply because a permanent Paramecia like Luffy's is quite uncommon. |
Sep 24, 2014 8:30 AM
#83
Thread cleaned This is a One Piece thread. If you want to talk about plot holes and senselessness in Naruto, do so in the appropriate board. Some of you were actively admitting to derailing the thread and yet continued to do so. Go back to talking about One Piece please. |
Sep 25, 2014 6:24 PM
#84
That's not answering the question of how can it just counter it. Most likely Oda didn't really have a way to creatively handle the situation. |
End Zionazism |
Sep 26, 2014 6:46 AM
#85
People interested about Haki should read this post by one of the guys at AP Forums, it explains a the cultural basis of Haki and how it works in One Piece: Rayleigh explaining what Haki is. It exists within every single human being. "Presence"... "Spirit"... "Aura". It is no different from these basic concepts with which anyone should be familiar with. However, the vast majority of people go their whole lives without ever noticing they possess it... or else try as they might, never succeed in making use of it. To feel no doubt... that is true strength!!! If we took what Rayleigh said and the translation very literally - Haki is ALL "Presence", "Spirit" and "Aura". His explanation mentions that Observation Haki is "Presence" felt to an elevated degree. Sovereign/Conqueror Haki is the user's very "Spirit" manifest, but of course not everyone can do it. From there, I presume we can take that as Armanent Haki being the "Aura" that is something like wearing an invisible suit or armor.. and naturally stronger armor also results in more powerful attacks. In that 4th page, that was explaining Armanent Haki, when Luffy asked Rayleigh, if with it, he can attack Smoker or even Aokiji? - Rayleigh was silent. It might just be me but knowing what I know about Haki, I think he answered in silence to mean "That depends on you". --- This is the best explanation I know of Haki. The credits go to C.A. from Animesuki. This is the third or fourth time I'm quoting/crediting him/her but I'm just amazed how s/he tried to explain Haki and how much it matches with the way Oda portrays it, especially considering s/he wrote this back when the manga was only in Amazon Lily arc and so on. (Full thread here I only copied up to half of page 12) I just copied what was posted but organized it a bit and made it easier to read. I apologize in advanced for the length as well as any repeated statements and explanations. Introduction: To the western world Haki is something that's not properly understood, even in this thread. Simply because there's no single word that describes Haki well enough. But to us East Asians, Japanese and Chinese, the words Haki is an instantly understood term. It is a term that is Asian in origin and loosely phrased and understood in the Western world. What Haki really is and means: The words Ha and Ki, meaning 'dominate' and 'air'. Together you can make out something like 'air of dominance/atmosphere of fear' or better phrased, 'Aura of dominance/supremacy' or 'Aura of fear/terror'. You can't really train yourself to just have Haki, it does not happen by itself or just suddenly. When you train yourself to become stronger or over time have attained some form of aggression, Haki will come along. It is something that builds up over experience and time and can be activated at will. But it can also be something that happens involutarily, examples of Haki in various forms: A large wrestler say, 'The Rock'. If you, as a normal person stands in the ring and he is about to charge towards you, or just staring hard at you, you will be pretty much in fear. But once he puts on some clothes and goes off stage and becomes friendly, even the kids can approach him easily for an autograph. Your pet dog is a cute and lovable family member, but if anyone trys to snatch its food bowl it will bark ferociously baring its teeth. Even you yourself would be quite fearful. Those are examples of actively expressing Haki physically through appearance and facial expression. Examples of involutary Haki: An infamous gangster that has been jailed for years but still remembered by people for his doings. He was known to have beaten several people to a bloody pulp before getting into jail, but since then he has already turned over a new leaf. He walks on the street trying to be friendly but people just turns silent wherever he goes, simply because they know he was a violent criminal. No matter how tame a lion or a bear is, it is a wild animal and for that we are wary even if they are circus animals dressed in frilly costumes. You would have fear to approach them to take pictures even if they are chained and in cages. -------------- In One Piece Haki is basically much the same, the amplification of fear. Though we've seen its effects with much more extreme results. Like Shanks making people fear him so much that they foam from their own fear. And Rayleigh demonstrating how you can spread fear to others but at the same time not to people who you are not hostile towards. So Haki cutting the sky into two? No, its not their Haki, its just the pure power, the power of them clashing. Haki flinching Logias? Plausible, if someone could perform an action or expression that can instill enough fear, Logias could literally solidfy in their tracks. --------------- Oda using Haki as it fundamentally works, makes the story more down to earth. Its a competition based on will and just will alone, not amazing energy sources that seem to come out of nowhere. Its basically who has the stronger will wins and it shows how strong mentally and how determined the characters are. Its a powerup 'system' that develops with character and not just an energy source that can be acquired out of nowhere. And 'imbue' is a nice word to use for Haki based attacks. When you put enough will into an attack, be sure of it and give it your all, you will hit that opponent well and hard, because you wanted to do that and made sure you did it. If you have doubts of your own abilities, you will not be putting your absolute best, giving your opponents that chance to escape. When Kizaru fought with Rayleigh, its the best example so far of will vs will. Rayleigh being saw upon by Kizaru as weaker than his prime, is experiencing Kizaru's will against him. But Rayleigh stated, he will not let Kizaru get the Strawhats no matter what, again he's displaying his opposing will. The scene is also brilliantly set up by Oda as a 'Sabre-lock', the locking of swords. In such a situation, both parties have to resist against each other, the one who softens and lets go will get sliced. One who does not have the will and determination to hang on will lose, contest of wills. --------------- When Shanks stared at the Seaking back in volume 1, he intimidated the Seaking with his Haki. Intimidation with Haki is the most fundamental Haki effect in all manga, its literally shown in every manga with Haki. How do you see Haki? Ki, how do you see the spirit, the air? No, you don't see it, you feel it. Why do the pirates fear the Shichibukai, the Admirals? Why do the Marines fear powerful pirates? Why did the crew freak out when Kizaru paid them a visit? Why were they so terrified when Kuma sent them off one by one? To have that overwhelming power and will, is to have Haki. Enemies will be intimidated by your powerful spirit. Once intimidated, their Haki drops, the group's Haki drops. The group becomes weaker and fall apart when their Haki is overwhelmed by the enemy. --------------- Can Haki be so strong that even light would freeze in its tracks? Or rather, the one who wielded light, to freeze in his tracks? Can you have such powerful intention in hitting someone that your punch will hurt someone that can't be hurt? Can you will your arrows into splitting rocks apart? Do you have the will to think that you can do these? Though short, these are the Haki that everyone sees, including those you mentioned. I'm not addressing these because I'm addressing everything else, the entire bulk of Haki that people do not have a clear idea of. If you skip this part and read the rest of my post, that's how big the entire bulk of what Haki is that's not applied physically. Did WB not show his Haki? No, he has always been showing it, like I said, that reputation of a person and how people would fear his name, is Haki at work. He has ruled over people hearts, his enemies feared him, his allies feel protected by him. Not just his crew, but even the islands that he protects with his name, the Fishman Island which Jinbei holds his gratitude to White Beard for helping. Why did Robin fear Aokiji so much? Why did the rest of the crew fear this seemingly friendly man immediately after Robin explains who he is? Why did Kizaru strike fear into the pirates when he crash into the island? Did the Supernovae not have Haki? Of course they had Haki, though they may all have different levels of Haki, Kid and Law's crew could hold their own against Rayleigh's Haki. What makes you think WB doesn't have Haki? Because he didn't make people faint, because he didn't use a Haki attack against Shanks? Is there something special in a Haki imbued attack? No, there's nothing special, it doesn't look extra flashy, it doesn't emit light, it doesn't look like its more powerful, absolutely nothing special at all. Its just the same attack, but it goes through. In all types of forces, there's a difference, when there's a difference, the force travels from a higher potential difference to a lower potential difference. Water flows from higher ground to lower regions. Electricity, voltage is that potential difference, it determines the flow of electric current. Heat, a region of higher temperature will transfer to a region of lower temperature. Now apply that to Haki. If your Haki is stronger than your opponent(s), your attack will flow through him, how strong is the flow, this current, depends on the potential difference. If the difference in Haki between you and your opponent, he could probably be knocked out by your sheer will. If the difference is small, you may lend him a good hit, but not enough to take him out. If the difference is equal? Nothing happens. So did Whitebeard not use his Haki against Shanks? He didn't falter at all in Shank's presence, most of his crew as well, some did, but most still stood up even when his Haki is strong enough that even the ship gave way by that powerful Haki. When Whitebeard and Shanks clashed, it is also the clash of their Haki, but their Haki is as strong as each others and neither gave way, 'nothing' happened. Well they say that if you smack two things hard enough, something's got to give way, so, the sky gave way instead. Haki attacks are not flashy, they don't look anything special at all. They are just powerful, they feel powerful. Because Haki is not seen, but felt. And we have been feeling Haki all the while in One Piece. People only seem to look at Haki for its physical effects, but that is really just the visible tip of the iceberg. The rest of Haki is much more, all underneath, unseen. What I want people to know is this part that's unseen. Haki as the spirit, the will that's emanating from a person. Haki that attracts allies, repels enemies. Do continue to question me, because I think you're going to understand what Haki is. Do note I'm not speculating, I'm stating the meaning of Haki. Haki is a word that's in the dictionary and it has a meaning. It is a common word that can be used in everyday speech, because its just a normal thing. --------------- I agree that the term has been made over complicated, simply because the word is actually a simple word in Chinese and Japanese. But because it doesn't exist in English, it has been extremely hard to get across to Western audience. If I state it in a very simple form, people would not be able to understand why and how I get to such a definition. Its like stating physics laws, a simple law actually has alot of calculations and theories behind it that eventually derives into a single sentence. The simplest form I can describe Haki is: A will that allows one to overcome others. --------------- Because what I said are indeed what has been presented of Haki over the years, it has been around in manga for such a long time, its a regular and recognised occurrence. I've already pointed out examples of manga where Haki is explained outright and were important factors. The only thing about One Piece is that it is it being read by alot of Western readers who are new to manga and new to the term. Older manga tend to use Haki alot more than recent manga, its simply because it was overused and mangaka nowadays had to come up with more 'unique' power up systems. Haki does not only work with martial artists, it works with anyone in a competitive enviroment. The competitive edge, the desire to win, dominating over others is Haki. In fact here in Asia, the word '覇 (Ha)' is used everywhere in the media. Box office tops, radio rankings, sports champs, coporate giants etc., the number one spot is the '覇王 (Haou)'. Their dominance over the rankings gives them a '覇気 (Haki)' that all competitors look up to. To be ambitious means you have a great desire and it usually means there's lots of competition and obstacles you have to defeat. Haki isn't the only Japanese element in One Piece. You have to wonder why Pirates wield katanas and there's even a whole ranking system of katana rarity and power. And why characters, named or nameless, speak in all sorts of Japanese dialects and slangs. A whole bunch of attack names have furigana of foreign words over the real kanji name. Oda also uses lots of Japanese cultural references all over the story. The story is inherently more Japanese than anything else. People have missed out alot on the story's essence through translation for both manga and anime. 'Haki' is just like 'Nakama', words that translators feel that it should be kept in Japanese so that it doesn't lose too much meaning. Rayleigh taking off the collar is not Haki at all, its just an extremely fast and powerful movement that even deflects the explosion off. And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more. What kind of intention or mood did Rayleigh have when he was pulling off the collar? I don't know. Maybe '本気' (honki)? Or '気配り' (kikubari), care/ attention/ consideration. Unless you're saying Rayleigh wants to defeat the collar, yea maybe he has a haki at that moment. --------------- If one is not in the mindset and determination to defeat someone, it means that he does not have Haki at that point. When Kuma sent the Straw Hats flying off, Luffy clearly was in a state of desperation, he has no Haki, or any positive Ki in his mind. His will and spirit was shattered and he was at a loss. In this case, you can also say that Luffy and his crew was crushed by Kuma's overwhelming Haki, actually was a double crush, earlier on by Kizaru. The crew's fighting spirit was battered by Kizaru's invincibility, then Kuma appeared to do even more damage to their fighting spirit. As they become more desperate they lose more hope and intention of defeating their opponents, their Haki is gone. This is what Haki means by mood and spirit, the crew was completely defeated by the 2 powerful enemies who had the great intentions in defeating them. That intention to overcome and defeat is the exact meaning of Haki. To have the Haki to defeat someone, you need the will and determination, the drive to do it. This is in times when Luffy feels that he really wants to defeat his enemies and he becomes really serious. Luffy needs to be able to get himself into a serious mindset in order to control his Haki. His aloofness is what makes his Haki erratic. --------------- --------------- I'll do a compilation update on the various Haki posts I've been randomly typing all over the sub forum. Ha: The word 'ha' means domination. To have the ambition to rule supreme over others, to be better than others and rule over them. Ki: The word 'ki' is the spirit, the lifeforce, or just the force that's found in everything in the universe. It is also the person's well being, his mood, emotions, everything that's part of his spirit. It is also the presence, the atmosphere of something or someone that is emitted or in the air. Or you can call it the 'aura' of things. Because Ki is everything, it can be in many forms. When you ask whether someone is 'genki', you're asking whether he is feeling fine, whether he is in good spirits. 'Tenki' is the weather, the atmospheric condition, the condition of the air. 'Warugi' (gi is another pronounciation of ki), is an evil spirit, an evil presence, you can feel the evil from a place if it looks eerie, sometimes a person can also feel evil. There are many types of ki, all coming from the meaning of the spirit, atmosphere or mood of things. Then there's also Sakki, the killing intention of a person or animal. When a person is expressing agression, and is holding a knife, you can feel his killing intention. There's an atmosphere of danger towards you, you feel threatened and have this fear of death. Then we have our main topic, Haki. Yes, you should be able to understand its a 'spirit of dominance', 'ambitious spirit', 'a will to dominate', something like that. What can Haki do, or what does it do? A spirit, a lifeforce, a will to rule over others, what does that mean? How do you rule over others? There are 2 ways, they either fear you and succumb under your powers or they become attracted to you and becomes your allies. This are 2 fundamental ways to rule over others. We have seen in One Piece that Haki can intimidate people. The Seaking feared Shanks so much that it ran off. Think of the instances where people feared so much that they couldn't even move. And then there were times where people have so much fear that they foam in the mouths and pass out. Yes they all had fear, they were enemies of those who a powerful Haki, those who had a powerful spirit. Can Haki be so strong that even light would freeze in its tracks? Or rather, the one who wielded light, to freeze in his tracks? Can you have such powerful intention in hitting someone that your punch will hurt someone that can't be hurt? Can you will your arrows into splitting rocks apart? Do you have the will to think that you can do these? If you know someone on your side who's extremely confident, powerful and charismatic, would you be attracted to him? Would you choose someone like that to become your leader? Because a person with strong Haki would mean that he has a strong spirit, a strong will to rule over everything, it makes his allies feel that they can depend on you. With strong allies, you can have a strong fighting spirit. People with strong Haki will become powerful leaders and as a powerful leader, you'll have similarly powerful Nakama. Haki can become stronger when people bind together, their spirits, their 'ki' merge and support each other, becoming an even stronger force. This means Ki is a variable force, it changes with your mood, your spirits. If you're down, you won't be able to bring out your Haki, if you're spirits are high, you'll have a powerful Haki. But Haki is limited by your ambition, your dreams, the stronger your will to accomplish those dreams, the stronger your Haki. If you're someone who only wants to open a small shop down the street, you don't need mcuh Haki. But if some day, you feel like becoming the best shop, you're ambition starts to build. And then you feel like making a franchise, you want to become a CEO, you want to rule the industry. Your Haki builds up. And to build it up, you need to have powerful sponsers, investors, allies. To attract such people, you must have that charisma, the confidence, you must be able too convince people to join you. You must have the Haki. You can build Haki if you really have that will, ambition and dream. But some people are just born with it, some people are natural leaders. Be it their character and personality, whether they're just charming, overwhelmingly confident or extremely nice, incredibly powerful and determined, these people have strong Haki from the start. People like Luffy, he is extremely confident, he has incredible will and determination, he makes people around him feel that they can do anything, they have no fear with him around. His Haki is so strong that it is equivalent to a king, a ruler that rules over ally and enemy, he was born with such a personality and Haki. Relations and Differences: I believe One Piece is no longer targeting younger audience as it had been 10 years ago. And this ties to why Haki is only revealed now. Firstly Haki is actually a word that can be used and is used in real and daily life. This is the one main factor that separates it from other power ups such as Reiatsu, Chakra and Spiral Energy. Its the human spirit and lifeforce itself. And for why One Piece is no longer just a shonen that targets, shonen. And how Haki being slowly revealed is related to that. I believe One Piece is a story that grows with its original fans and for 10 years, its safe to say most every fan is a mature teenager or adult. And its why Haki is only slowly introduced, is because Oda wants the readers to mature with the story and understand Haki in a mature way. And Haki doesn't matter only to weak willed 'goons and grunts'. In fact it is that tiny difference that when 2 people of strong Haki clash, that will decide the results. There are times in competition, when it comes to the final round, it will be that slight difference that will decide the winner. When 2 people are aiming for the same thing and they want it so badly, they will do anything for it. Only the one who's more relentless, determined and willing, will achieve the goal. --------------- Qi Gong is the practice of 'qi' or 'ki' in Japanese, as a form of exercise, or health regulating. If you refer back to my original post on this thread, you can see my explanation of 'ki'. It is the spirit, life force, basically the health of a person. When you practice Qi Gong, you're regulating your 'qi'/'ki', it exercises your body, mind and spirit. Or you can say an exercise for your aura. Haki is not Qi Gong, but a form of qi / ki. Qi Gong is a system of exercises. Haki is this aura that a person gives out, the way he affects the atmosphere of things, with his will or charisma or fear. And it seems you always miss out my points, or you're just skipping them without reading. I've already explained the above in my original post, even my posts that I posted last year. And then you're bring up Whitebeard's Haki not causing people to faint. Did you skip my entire 'potential difference' paragraph? Fainting is when the difference is so great, the weaker side just gives in. Is Shanks going to faint from Whitebeard? Were any of Aokiji or Kizaru's opponents so weak that they'd faint without even a need to fight? They were affected by their Haki, they were all afraid, all intimidated by their presence, their Haki. And Haki in manga compared to real life is just like how fighting is in manga compared to real life. They are just brought to extreme magnitudes. Do people fight in real life, yes, but just not as exaggerated. Do people have Haki in real life, yes, but just not as exaggerated. Can a person have an ambition, a dream, in real life? Of course they can. But can anyone be as determined as a manga character? No, but that's where exaggeration and supension of belief takes over. "This guy's punches is so fast that he punches faster than the speed of sound." "This guy's Haki is so strong that people faint from their fear." Haki is not illogical, it has always been part of real life, just that its exaggerated in fiction. Oda used Haki in One Piece because he didn't want to create a special Shounen power unit of measurement or power up or some special energy system. He is using a down to earth, realistic way to show a person's will and determination and how it carries through. --------------- Well here's how I view the strength of Haki: People can be strong or weak willed. There are people who are stubborn, people who are strong in their opinions, people who are very determined in their ways. There's also people who are easily swayed, choose to avoid than to face problems, do not like competition and thus avoid, also there are people who give up easily. These different characters with different strengths in their wills, give them Haki of different strengths. Then there's also other factors, such as their driving force. People have different dreams and ambitions. If one only wants to enjoy peace by living a simple life, there's no need for an extremely strong will. If one wants to be extremely successful in life and wants the best, he gives his all to achieve that and has a strong will. Then there's alternatives. If one lives in a chaotic environment, but all he wants is a peaceful and simple life, he will fight with all his will to get out of the chaos. If one only dreams of having a luxurious life, but he is lazy, he has a weak will and thus will most likely not achieve the dream. The concept of Haki allows characters to be strong or weak based on their characters, interaction with others, upbringing and environments. --------------- How does Haki relate to Ki? The closest example I can think of is force and force in a direction. Ki is the amount of force one can apply, Haki is the force applied in a direction, this direction is the the intention and will of a person trying to overcome others. Its also like speed and velocity, speed is just speed, velocity has a direction. The 'Haki burst' is one of the most common or fundamental applications of Haki in manga. When someone wants others to stop what they're doing without wanting to touch them, they send out a huge burst of intention usually using their eyes. By showing an expression of intense anger, it sends a wave of fear into the enemies, this is the basic application of Haki as a form of intimidation. If your opponents' will is strong enough, they are not intimidated and it doesn't affect them. If they have weak wills, they may be petrified, run away, or even faint from terror. --------------- Actually what you pointed out is one of the reasons why the West cannot grasp Haki. The Western perspective do not have an idea what 'Ki' is. Anyway I talked about the Force and Ki in the cultural references thread. And I've been a Star Wars fan for a long time, I can also tell you that everyone is part of the Force, but not everyone has the aptitude to use the Force. Say a simple 'Force Push', it taps into the Force between the user and the target and applying his control of the Force, he pushes the Force against the target, causing the target to be pushed away. Everything is within the Force, users and non users. A Force user doesn't 'produce force', he manipulates the Force in everything to manipulate his surroundings. Why does it take so much control and concentration to push or lift a large object like the X Wing? Because the X Wing's mass means that it exerts alot on the Force, you need to manipulate alot of that Force to move it. A non user is still part of the Force, they affect the Force, but it does not have the ability to manipulate it by will. "Feel the Force, let the Force flow through you." You do not produce Force out of nothing, you manipulate and interact with the Force between and within all things. Anyway while this is similar to Haki, Haki in any context is completely different from the word play between Force and force. --------------- Funny that you bring 'nen' into this topic as well, because 'nen' is a word just like 'haki', a normal everyday term in Japanese that the West sees as some kind of 'special concept'. Nen, in fact comes from the same intention and will power that Haki is based on. The fact is the Japanese culture is very spiritual and sees the spirit, and will of a person as his strength. Your strength, health and emotions comes from a person's spirit, that spirit is 'Ki'. Oda is just another one of these spiritual Japanese and he's applying the exact same concept into One Piece. I've already explained how Haki affects bows so many times in this thread, I've also addressed how Devil Fruit abilities doesn't matter against Haki. Have you seen Fist of the North Star? I'll explain with it even if you've not watched it. Kenshiro is known for his super human strength, he beats opponents into pulp. But his strongest moves are not based on strength, its based on Ki. He either strengthens himself with Ki or he destroys the opponents Ki. All his muscles are just a side effect from his training to help him master his Ki. When fighting weak opponents, just simple muscle is needed, but when fighting truly strong opponents, Ki is what decides victory or defeat. Raoh is a huge man, he's extremely powerful physically. But his physical strength came from his intention and will to become the strongest martial artist in the world. That intention and will, his ambition, is his Haki. When Kenshiro fought Raoh, it was almost a non phsyical fight, it was a contest of Ki. Raoh's famous last punch, he yelled: "my entire soul's fist", it is the intention and will to defeat someone that gives you power, not your physical powers. The Japanese view fights as a contest of wills and not a contest of strength. You do not win because you are strong, you win because you refuse to be defeated. That willpower and determination is the spirit, or Ki, that gives you victory. Even in the real world,not just Japanese, even Western boxers, they do not rely on just their physical strength. They also need the willpower and determination to continue through the rounds and alot of them even pray to God before fights. --------------- Actually if you've bothered to read more of my posts, you'll find out that that 'internal energy' is Ki. And Ki is a person's spirit, will, emotion, mood and health, in other words, the entire person. Your emotions, will and intention is your drive, it is the energy for you to accomplish something. Why does Goku become stronger when he is angry? Why does Kenshiro become stronger with more sadness? Why does Domon become stronger when he calms himself? What is the power of love? Why is courage power? Why do Japanese say 'omoi no chikara', 'power of feelings'? It is because in the Japanese culture, energy comes from your emotions and will, that is what Ki is about. Rarity: Haki is literally in everything in One Piece and Oda already established it all the way back in Volume 1 with Shanks and the Seaking. Haki has been working all the way, just that the word itself is not mentioned until recently or like 5 years ago. Haki has been around all the while, but now that its mentioned, Oda is trying to tell us that Haki will be something that will be making a difference from now on. Luffy's grand dream and determination to be the Pirate King is what makes him so charismatic and powerful. Because he is so determined to become the Pirate King, he doesn't fall from defeat, he just keeps standing up and press on. His spirit makes his Nakama trust and believe in him and makes his enemies fear his strength. That is Luffy's Haki at work, all the way from the start. -------------- Well, at this point of the story, pretty much everyone being introduced is someone who's extremely powerful. And these people are so powerful because they have extremely strong wills, be it determination for goals, for duty or evil deeds. From this point onwards into the New World, its basically a contest of wills for Luffy and his opponents. Another words Haki being the key to defeating his opponents. And yes, it seems Oda really has incoporated Haki into One Piece right from the start. If Shanks demonstrated it on the Sea King so early, its safe to say stuff like Mantra and Rokuougan is related to Haki. -------------- Yes, Haki itself is not rare, its Haki which had grown in people to be strong enough to be harnessed into a powerful force, that's rare. And even rarer, is Haki as strong as Luffy's, which from the million's of Haki that can be used as an energy source, is most powerful. And at Boa not mastering her Haki, its actually a mistranslation and mentioned earlier on somewhere in this subforum. That line is actually pointing to Luffy. Luffy's Haki right now is like a raw diamond that needs polishing. And once polished will become invaluable. Sakki: About Zoro: I agree on parts where it is a manifestation of his Haki or rather Sakki(killing intent). Sakki is another form of Haki that is also very common in Eastern manga, Akuma and Evil Ryu is famous for their Sakki. Shun Goku Satsu is an attack that uses their Sakki to strike terror into the opponent, render them helpless and allows Akuma to unleash a killing combo. Sakki is a much darker form of Haki, it does not spread just fear of the individual, but fear that they may be killed. Zoro's Asura strikes fear into the opponent messing up their minds and together with his incredibly fast movements, creates an illusion where he suddenly gains extra heads and limbs like the demon Asura himself. --------------- 覇気 (はき) (haki): Aura of fear/dominance. The word '覇', means dominance, ruling over others, supremacy. 殺気 (さっき) (sakki): Killing aura. The word '殺', means kill. Zoro's Asura turning Rankyaku into mist may also be the effect of him grasping the 'breath' of the air blades and he slices through them. Application and Growth: Reputation, yes that reputation is the person's Haki itself. One's reputation is made up of his ambition, or simply the things he has done. A powerful man has a great reputation because his Haki made it so. Use my shop owner to CEO example above, that person's ambition to become more successful expanded his reputation, he becomes well known for his work. The problem you have is that you think Haki is something that must be actively imbued, must be activated, or that it can only be used actively. But no, what I've been saying is that Haki is both passive and active, you'll always have your Haki passively, but you can also actively raise it. And like you said, its normal for people to freak out or be afraid of someone with a reputation. Because, yes Haki is just that, its just that normal. Like I said, Haki is in everyone, but you're thinking Haki is something rare. No, Haki is in everyone, but they must have this will and ambition to bring it out. --------------- While our Haki theories here can be applied to many situations in One Piece so far, Oda has not shown us the full extent of Haki's capabilities. For that we can not really say what Haki can do beyond what we have seen. Haki and Sakki does weaken wills and is exactly what's happening in most cases. But if two people of extremely high will clash, it will be a will 'topping over another situation'. These people's wills are so strong, they don't falter, but they can still be defeated if the opponent's will is stronger in the end. And if 2 wills are both exceedingly strong, we get something like Shanks vs Whitebeard, their wills don't bend but other things, maybe the sky bends for them --------------- Haki is not just an offensive effect, it also strengthen your spirits of your allies as a whole. It is just like an aura that strengthens yourself and people who are in your aura. If any of Whitebeard's sons be able to stand up to Shank's powerful Haki alone? They would probably be in fear if they're to face Shanks alone. But as a group, they do not have as much fear, because they are held by each other's Haki and especially Whitebeard's Haki. They know that if Shanks were to do anything, Whitebeard would be there, their Nakama will be there for them, so they do not fear Shanks as much. Though the weaker ones still collapsed from fear. That intimdating stare, [i]is[/is] Haki itself. That is the basic, most fundamental way of expressing your will, by visually threatening someone. Then apply my 'potential difference' example again. If you're not expressing any aggression, and the person stares back at you, of course you'd turn away. But if you're more aggressive in staring, he will be the one turning away. Even when staring at a girl, if she has a piercing look which tells you not to stare at her, you'd turn away. If she's shy and not as strong in her presence, she'll be the one turning away from your stare. If both of you are attracted to each other, you lock your eyes. Haki is this balance of wills and intentions, who ever doesn't have the stronger intention, will turn away. And Haki is not a thing that can only be found in certain people or types of people. It is a trait of a person's character, it is a form of mentality that affects people. Saying someone can't have Haki, is like saying someone does not have the ability to threaten or make friends. All living things can threaten or make friends, DF-users, non-DF-users, all of them can threaten or make friends, all of them can use Haki. --------------- Seeing that everything goes to extremes in One Piece, Oda can stretch Haki as much as he wants. Haki has been stretched in similar ways in Chinese manhwa, arrows that transform into firey phoenixes, materialising blades using Haki and doing stuff similar to 'Unlimited Blade Works' etc. Even the basic 'Hadoken' from Street Fighter has Haki fundamentals. --------------- I don't have much to say, everything I needed to say has already been posted. My description of Haki is exactly what Haki means and how it can relate to One Piece. Its not speculation, its definition, but I cannot say its exactly how Oda is using the term Haki, just that whatever Oda has shown so far, is exactly like what Haki is supposed to be. People are scared of the Admirals because they have their abilities, completely true. People are scared of Shanks, Rayleigh, Whitebeard, because they are incredibly powerful, that's true. Now compare both sentences, people are scared of the Admirals and the Yonkou, because, why? Because they are powerful. It doesn't matter whether they have abilities, are using guns, swords or just incredibly strong. They are feared just because of these strengths and powers that they have. This strength is exactly, part of their Haki. Haki is this atmosphere that a person creates, whether he is threatening or charismatic, whether he is feared as an enemy or respected as an ally. It is the entire composition of the person's will and intention, the way his carries out his ambition. It doesn't matter what is his power, that power will become the reason why he is feared or respected, which also means that its also his reputation. When a person's Haki is strong enough to go against another person's will, not just Devil Fruit abilities, he can shrug off a person's attacks as well, just because his will is stronger. Yes I'm refering to Sentoumaru, I dare to state that he is someone who knows how to use his Haki effectively. Luffy was hurt by him not because Sentoumaru's Haki cancels his rubber ability, not that he cancels the Devil Fruit. Its that his will overcomes Luffy's will, which includes his ability and hurts Luffy directly. At that moment Sentoumaru had brought his Haki to a peak and Luffy's will is weaker that his, and for that Luffy's attacks can't hurt him as well. Think of Luffy's rubber skin as a shield, Sentoumaru hits so hard that the shield did not provide a significant defence at all. Think of Luffy's attack as just a simple attack, Sentoumaru was willing to go against him so much that his attack doesn't matter at all. Here's a very simple way to look at things, lets say Haki can be calculated, this is how it will be calculated: Pirate A: [Strong personality (10 points) + devil fruit ability (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points)] x weak control of Haki (0.5 multiplier) = 30 x 0.5 = 15 Haki points Pirate B: [Strong personality (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points) + good weapon (5 points)] x moderate control of Haki (1.0 multiplier) = 25 x 1.0 = 25 Haki points Pirate C: [Moderate personality (5 points) + super human strength (10 points)] x great control of Haki (2.0 multiplier) = 15 x 2.0 = 30 Haki points This is exactly how Haki would work if its in maths. You can see that the conditions in [square brackets], are exactly what makes up the Haki of a person, and then there's a multiplier which is determined by how good the person can control his Haki. Pirate C, even with a moderate personality, not too determined, can defeat Pirate A and B who are strong opponents. But if Pirate A is Luffy, and he has learnt how to control his Haki, which makes his multiplier increase, he will be stronger than both Pirate B and C. This is exactly how Haki works in One Piece. --------------- The Haki of a person is every single bit of will and intention, the means of having that will and intention and everything that makes up what a person wants to do. In an environment where people compete and struggle against each other, that will and determination that one carries to help bring him to the top, is Haki. Whether you do it by being extremely strong, extremely clever, have a powerful weapon, or have a Devil Fruit ability, it all adds up to be the Haki you have. And with your Haki, you are competing against the Haki of others. Some band together and merge their Haki, to work towards the same goal, others go against you, as an individual or as a group. Having strong Haki doesn't mean you will win, because your opponent also has Haki. As I've described in earlier posts, Haki works as a balance of the fighters' wills, Magellan definitely has his own will and determination. --------------- Is Luffy's will to save Ace stronger than Magellan's will to stop Luffy from saving Ace? Can that will also be equal? While Haki is compared, we still have to take into account their powers and abilities, Luffy had no defence against poison. You can even say that Magellan's poisons can directly rob a person of their fighting spirit. Be it paralysis, intense pain, direct tissue damage, all these afflictions will damage one's will. Luffy's lack of control of his Haki at this point makes him still quite average against the most powerful characters. --------------- Using Haki, what does it mean? People use Haki all the time, its part of their personality and mood. There's actually only a tiny difference between the way martial artists like the Amazons use Haki and how normal fighters use Haki. Martial artists are trained to assume aggression in a fight, it becomes part of their routine, they can switch in on and off. This trained aggression and the ability to go into the state of aggression instantaneously is whats different from normal fighters. The Amazons are constantly ready for a fight, they draw their bows and shoot with true intention to hit, this is their controlled aggression. Normal fighters only become truly aggressive when they're serious, when they feel angered, intense pressure or under stress. This is like Luffy, he only gets serious when he feels that his Nakama is threatened, when lives are at stake. This is when he gets truly aggressive, only when he feels the mood. Say a street gangster is to get into a fight with a pro boxer. The gangster will taunt at the boxer for a while laughing and not taking it serious. But then the boxer gives him an intense stare and throws a serious punch at the gangster. Only now the gangster will realise that the boxer is serious business and he himself becomes serious and have real aggression. That seriousness and state of aggression is when Haki is brought out. Now compare it to Shanks and Rayleigh. For a moment they are smiling and docile, in the next they assume an intense and intimidating stare, did they have training as a martial artist? No, you do not need to be a martial artist to learn how to be aggressive. Shanks and Rayleigh are people who have gone through real combat and life and death situations, they know when to get serious or not. They can bring out their Haki anytime, they can switch from docile to aggressive immediately. Luffy only got the same aggression, the intimidating stare after going through many life and death situations, but he is still not serious enough, he is still not mature enough. He can only bring out this Haki when he feels threatened, when lives are at stake, like when he shouted and gave the intense look on his face when Hancock wanted the 3 Amazons to be smashed. The eyes are important, it tells of a person's will and intentions. Like many people earlier on in the story, the people who knew Roger, said that Luffy had the same eyes as him. And Luffy only recently has gotten the exact same look in his eyes, the Haki that will make him the Pirate King. I don't call it a 'forced effort', I call it a controlled effort. The ability to have control over your state of mind, your mood, is important in controlling your Haki. What Luffy needs to learn now is to be serious when the situation needs it and not only when he truly feels threatened. --------------- About flashiness of Ki, it can be flashy, but its up to the mangaka. First, a real life example, Shaolin Monks. If you've ever seen them channeling and regulating their Ki before smashing steel on the heads or resisting sharp weapons stuck into them, you'll see they do alot of big movements and stances that's almost like a dance. That can be described as 'flashy'. And in manga, Haki can be exaggerated depending on how far the mangaka wants to suspend belief, like the Chinese Manhua Feng Yun, I mentioned above. In Fist of the North Star, Ki or Haki are represented by a flaming aura around the fighter. Kenshiro also intimidates his opponents with a piercing stare, or with a hotblooded yell, usually before he does his Hyakuretsu Ken. In Street Fighter mangas(I've repeated this example many times in this subforum), you get Ki that's represented as auras of different colours. The colour of the aura shows how powerful the fighter is and can be seen only by other fighters. And Gouki, famous for his flames is actually representing his Sakki(intention to kill). His Sakki is so strong that it manifests into flames. Of course there's always Hadoken and other projectiles that are also manifestations of Ki into something tangible. Will Oda give Luffy Hadokens? Most probably not, because Oda is using a non flashy adaptation of Haki. More down to Earth, to show the extent of a person's will, through a person's determination and intentions. The Haki is shown through a person's actions and not a fireball of will like Hadoken or like Kamehameha. ------------ And intimidation is not just what Haki is all about, phsyical intimidation is the weakest form of Haki. You can also be intimidated by a person's reputation, which means his reputation is his Haki. And the person has a reputation because he has an intention, an ambition. A powerful Haki comes from a person with great ambition, his power and authority makes him an intimidating man. To intimidate is to frighten, cause fear, remove courage and weaken spirits. People do faint in real life from fear, it happens from time to time. Its the same thing when manga characters use a Haki burst to intimidate people, its just exaggerated. The intimidation, fear is so strong that a group of people can faint at the same time. Those with stronger wills were just left shocked or paralysed by fear instead of fainting. A weapon is an extension of a fighter's body. When a fighter swings a weapon, he doesn't do it randomly, there is emphasis and intention to hit in every swing or stroke. Its just in manga, its exaggerated in such a way that the intention to hit can even be passed into an arrow so much that it smashes rocks. I've used the example of the Hong Kong manhua Feng Yun, where there's extensive practice of Haki in their martial arts. There was this guy who used a bow, who's arrows are homing phoenixes formed from his Haki. The arrows had so much intention that it 'comes to life' and become a phoenix that chases its target. For predicting attacks, it will need a little bit more explanation. It could be a unique skill to Sandersonia, no one is sure, but Haki was indeed used in manga to predict attacks before. Very simple, non Haki explanation: Sandersonia is a snake, snakes can 'taste the air' with their tongues, in fact its their most important method of sensing the surroundings. By using their tongues to flicker through the air, they can not only smell/taste their targets, but they can also feel the air currents and pressure from movements in the air. Sandersonia could be using this sensitive ability to predict movements, an exaggerated manga effect. Haki explanation: I've been saying Ki is everything, its the atmosphere, mood and spirit. Example, a house on the top of the hill has a reputation to be haunted, people are afraid of getting close to it. You and your friend decide to enter it for fun. The house has broken windows, creaking doors and floors, spiderwebs all over the place. It has a spooky atmosphere, your adventurous spirit changes to fear as you sense that there's someone staring at you all the time, giving a spooky presence. Your mood changes as the air feels kind of chilly, sending chills down your spine, you decide to leave. That is the Ki that the haunted house makes, '怖気', ozoke, frightening Ki, it has a frightful, spooky atmosphere that makes people scared. But if you're brave enough, the house will not scare you. And if the house is renovated and made to look new, it will not have a spooky atmosphere anymore, unless people know of its old reputation and may still be spooked at times. Japanese attributes mood directly to how the atmosphere feels. In English there's 'the tension in the air was so thick, it could be cut with a knife', this is a description similar to what Ki describes, the air is the mood. People can create the mood of the occasion, imagine everyone is on a fun trip. But some guy decides to be stupid and plays a prank on a girl. The girl was hurt and cries, everyone's spirits were dampened because of that. And back at Haki. Haki is the mood and atmosphere that someone carries when they are in a fight, that intention to defeat each other also sends intimidation to both sides. Can fighters train themselves to read the atmosphere of a fight so well that they can predict moves? Can the intentions of a fighter be read through the air? It can be similar to how Mantra works in the Skypeia arc, through great understanding of Haki, you may also be able to read intentions like how Mantra 'hears'. In other manga, there are indeed applications of Haki to sense the opponents intentions and next move. But because its used by Sandersonia in One Piece, it may also still just be Sandersonia's unique ability, using her snake senses to not just feel air movements, but Ki itself. She definitely predicts movements by sensing through the air. The breath of all things: The concept of breath, '呼吸' ( こきゅう) (kokyuu), which literally does mean breath or breathing, is closely related to ki '気' (き). Ki means mood, spirit and can also be air. The involuntary action of breathing is a frequency that happens within you, you can say its the frequency of your life, your spirit. In eastern belief, Ki exists in all things, but it doesn't mean that everything breathes in air. But rather everything has a frequency in them, a frequency of their spirit. In One Piece they call this frequency the breath of all things. You can transfer Ki from one body to another, from one object to another. In this form, Ki becomes energy, it is also the energy that exists in all things. The spirit of all things is their inherent energy. When you fan the air, you transfer energy from your hand to the fan and into the wind, making a breeze. When you fan really hard, you'll need to breathe harder. If you can control your breath, you can control your energy and release them as powers under your control. In One Piece its just that these characters as so powerful, they can do amazing stuff with their Ki, the energy they have in them. Like kicking air into a Rankyaku. As all things have a frequency in them, it means they have a resonant frequency. If you can adjust your frequency to their frequencies, you become a counter to them and you can cause it to act in your will. All things have different frequencies, so you can't use the frequency of slicing a piece of leaf to slice rock, the same other way round. Something that Zoro was supposed to understand and demonstrate. And also like I mentioned above, Ki is also mood. When you're angry you breathe harder, when you're happy you breathe faster, when you're sad you have weak breaths. So a powerful fighter must be able to control his mood, his ki, so that he can control his power. Can you imagine for yourself what kind of ki, breathing you have when you're expressing Haki and Sakki? --------------- You brought Breath of all things into the topic. You should realise that 'Breath' is really 'Ki' itself. All things in the universe has this energy, this force, which is its 'Ki'. When Zoro's master taught him to realise the Breath of all things, he really means to be able to be one with the Ki of all things. To be one with an object, is to have a same frequency with that object. In the concept of Ki, to attain the same frequency, one has to regulate his breathing, the act of breathing is the frequency of your lifeforce and you can control it. By controlling your emotions and laying down your intentions, you can control your breathing and release energy to cut anything you wish to. This is what I believe Breath of all things refer to. Instead of Breath of all things being Haki itself, knowing the Breath is one way of strengthening your Haki. By knowing how to control your Ki, you can control your Haki, you can push it in a direction with greater force. ---------------- The reason why Zoro still has to meditate, is because he hasn't mastered the technique. When he first used Breath on Mr 1, it was his first time using and he had to concentrate by meditating. After that Zoro has been getting more used to Breath and he was slicing steel with less concentration. As they say, practice makes perfect, Zoro will eventually be able to use Breath literally like part of his breathing. I sincerely hope this helps your understanding of Haki and/or the series in general, as well as your future discussions and arguments. |
SuperRedSep 26, 2014 7:03 AM
Sep 26, 2014 12:44 PM
#87
Mikasa said: That's not answering the question of how can it just counter it. Most likely Oda didn't really have a way to creatively handle the situation. You can't demand a show to answer a question it never aimed to answer. The why is the existence of a power that through an advanced state of concentration allows the user to create an armor; an armor that can pass through the DF power and reveal the tangible body of the user. Questioning why does this power exist is the same as questioning the basis of its worldbuilding and context, a treatment that not only this series but any piece of fiction doesn't deserve. |
Sep 26, 2014 12:56 PM
#88
IntroverTurtle said: That it's all the same One Piece. With more glorious fanservice. Oda da bess. |
Sep 29, 2014 3:32 AM
#89
That is why I don't watch anime anymore. I really don't like how animation looks, for me the Enies Lobby animation was the best. Anime is now full of fillers (I mean filler situations, filler camrea rolling, filler running there and here) and it is really boring, and there is a lot of not so funny things which weren't in manga. They also alternate some things a bit. Yeah Fishmen arc wasn't the best even in manga but when I was watching it as anime I was awfully bored. So I watch some episodes just because of my favourite seiyuu's now not for the story because the anime is worser and worser. |
Sep 29, 2014 5:01 AM
#90
-Klad- said: I thing those arcs are a disappointment more than being bad because we were expecting some great things after the TS and for the NW,I agree that those arcs are of the weakest in one piece,but they have some strong points about the future story and the progression of it; for example the vision of Luffy destroying FI,we got to know more about the ancient weapons,Noah and the introduction of two members of Big mom's crew or in PH about Kaido,what happend to Law,a little more insight on Vegapunk and maybe some stuff that I don't remember right now.What you said is really true. Pre-time skip OP was better than now. Many of you might counter this argument with the Dressrosa arc, which is really good and one of the best OP arcs, but you cannot judge the whole New World saga with just one arc. Think about the other two who were completely bad, in my opinion. Fishman arc and Punk hazard were one of the worst arcs in the series. So in the new world we have two bad arcs and one awesome arc. This is the exact reason why I think pre time skip OP is better. But nevertheless I hope that Oda shan't disappoint with the rest of arcs anymore. Anyway theso arcs have a weak story for the arc itself (not much interesting characters,the villains were average and etc.) but not as a whole for one piece. |
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