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| I'm a little confused by this. What was with the whole |
| We're the same. Nuisances with nowhere to go. |
Jigsy said: I'm a little confused by this. What was with the whole I think both (if not Cal only) had the same dream before any of them started shooting. |
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Jigsy said: I'm a little confused by this. What was with the whole Because of the fire(bomb), that occurred at their house, both Cal and Reiji's destiny was turned around. Imagine if the bomb wasn't there from the start. Then Cal and Reiji would've lived normally, maybe still as an assassin, but they could've escaped somewhere together. |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
Jigsy said: I'm a little confused by this. What was with the whole It's the REALITY that they are in, all that happened throughout those 20 eps are but a mere game that Burger King of Reiji played on his PS3, you hear me? IT'S A SONYYYYYYYY!!! |
 If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| Another blah episode. This did a better job at creating an atmosphere than the previous 10 or so have, so that's a good thing, but at the end of the day, Cal was just so hollow that I felt the ending they were trying to give Cal was too much. We start the episode with the mother underscoring how immature Cal is by wanting to be with Reiji, saying to Mio, "It isn't love, just wanting to be with him forever." That right there made me think that they were actually going to have her come to realize her pathetic actions, thereby making her death more poignant. But it didn't happen. Instead we see her drunk and crazy, blowing up the motorcycle for no real reason, and and losing to Reiji (newsflash: alcohol slows down reaction time, you probably would have lost to Ein drinking that much too) only to incoherently whine. I agree that Reiji should have said something to Cal. The notion that killing her without any closure is the best way to deal with the situation is utterly ridculous. The egos on all of these characters make me cringe. Again, I'm reminded by the words of Mio's mother, this time, to Shiga. These are all just selfish people that want to do what they want to do. They don't really think about anyone else, and like to use circumstances as a reason to avoid actual discussion. She is the only sensible character throughout the entire show. It's a shame that she was showed much less than the dumb school kids. |
noteDheroSep 20, 2009 12:14 PM
| Lets see what the ending is gonna bring us. |
| I felt strictly nothing seeing this episode. It was slow (I mean even slower than a typical Koichi Mashimo episode), developments were shitty, and now the only two good characters of the show, Claudia and Cal, are wasted without much reasons. It's a good thing the music and animation (well, the whole atmosphere of) are still great though. Oh and I didn't understand the need for the five-minutes introduction at the beginning of the ep, it was a simple waste of screentime since we don't really care what two side characters like Mio and her mother (that we see for the second time only I believe) have to say one episode until the end when the conclusion is not even started. Stick to the important points, not the useless side stories. |
JacutSep 20, 2009 1:12 PM
 In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
| No~, my Kyaru~! :< Reiji is not what he used to be. He gives me the nerves, just like he did in the first 10 or so episodes. He was awesome in the second part, WHY did he change? THAT Reiji would have never killed Kyaru >_< Anyway, grabbing her gun like that and stepping aside... Yay! Now I have to clap or what? It was obvious she's gonna die ( :/ ) but you could've at least say something to her... Like someone said... shoot her in the hand for example, she drops the gun and then they can talk. Ein was cool out there, she made the whole epi. Yay. Now kill Scythe, kill Reiji and go to Hawaii. Wohoo. /I know it can't happen though/. I just don't want him to live, he's not merely as great character as he used to be. I think the school is influencing him. |
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noteDhero said: We start the episode with the mother underscoring how immature Cal is by wanting to be with Reiji, saying to Mio, "It isn't love, just wanting to be with him forever." You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her. That right there made me think that they were actually going to have her come to realize her pathetic actions, thereby making her death more poignant. But it didn't happen. I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :) Instead we see her drunk and crazy... If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though. blowing up the motorcycle for no real reason... That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night. ...and and losing to Reiji (newsflash: alcohol slows down reaction time, you probably would have lost to Ein drinking that much too) See above. ... only to incoherently whine. It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end. |
Jacut said: Oh and I didn't understand the need for the five-minutes introduction at the beginning of the ep, it was a simple waste of screentime since we don't really care what two side characters like Mio and her mother (that we see for the second time only I believe) have to say one episode until the end when the conclusion is not even started. Stick to the important points, not the useless side stories. One more of the oblivious "this show is too difficult for me" viewers. Did you even try to understand what the point of the Mio closure was? Or are you only in for the guns and girls? Yes, Phantom does work with nuances, but it amazes me how some people consistently fail to understand the story, as if they were watching raws. |
Mentar said: You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her. I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :) If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though. That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night. See above. It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end. No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple. The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break. Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love. |
| Didn't she get messed up by Scythe though, i.e. he gave her the supplies and jobs to "fuel" her rage for his research i.e. his number sisters who are attractive and got the energy of Cal but the cold killing determination of Elen and Reji. Also I think Cal's dream sequence (which I assume is the game's Cal ending sequence) and Reji's line on we messed up somewhere, was bit tongue in cheek on the game mechanics but was actually quite a powerful piece of animation overall by posing the classic what if scenario. (regardless if its overused, which quite frankly it isn't too much in animation and overused being well overused) Cal motivation was down to abandonment issues for another woman, which she wouldn't have known unless Scythe had told her. Scythe is basically watching from afar, waiting to show off his play which was shown in a few episodes before, when his sisters are doing recon. |
AlliedGSep 20, 2009 2:29 PM
noteDhero said: Mentar said: You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her. I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :) If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though. That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night. See above. It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end. No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple. The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break. Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love. Thanks for summarizing what I posted when they first introduced grown up Cal lol. @AlliedG - Scythe just told her what she wanted to hear over and over again to fuel her "anger". "Reiji left you for another women", "Reiji abandoned you", "Reiji doesn't care about you anymore"...etc. She was already aware of the real reason Reiji left her after a year but her Naivety and stubbornness got the better of her. |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
noteDhero said: No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple. The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break. Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love. THANK-YOU noteDhero! You summed up what I've been wanting to post, but couldn't word it as well as you did, regarding Reiji and Lizzie not wanting Cal to become an assasin. |
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noteDhero said: No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple. The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break. Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love. I second this. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Wow Great Episode Cant Wait for 26!!! :) |
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| I loved this ep, too bad that Cal finally came to her senses after she was nearly dead ; ( It was cool as Ein killed the Ghodo Gang Reiji with the Steyr Scout sub machine gun looks also cool, I he'll will kill him all The "Zahlenschwestern" as End Boss makes me feel a bit qualmish. Beetrain please don't ruin it... |
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noteDhero said: Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. Now that's what I call rewriting history. Ever since chapter 3 began, your meme has been "this show/Cal are stupid and making no sense". And now that the motivation and reason behind Cal's actions finally becomes evident, you suddenly pretend that this was what you said all along. It wasn't. You're finally shifting your position a bit closer to the truth and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Even so, you're still off. So I'll take my time to recreate and comment on the development once more. Cal isn't "stupid", she never has been, in fact she has shown the capability to quickly grasp and process new information, particularly in chapter 2. And it most certainly hasn't been "bad plot development", which in your use is a synonym for "I don't like/comprehend the way things are going". Cal underwent several stages of development in the third chapter, and "one size fits all" (she was stupid all along) is the conveniently arrogant-dismissive oversimplification which got on my nerve all the time. "Immature" - attributing this to a little girl who managed to survive on her own in urban Armerica is questionable to begin with. Abandonment issues is naturally true: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did. Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl. Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him. Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay. So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance. However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days. Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim. Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night. It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died. So, we had a gradual development over multiple phases, and seen from her POV (something which you _always_ fail to do), it's been fairly understandable why she reacted the way she did. Instead, you're going with your usual oblivious omniscient-viewer knowledge and arrogantly declare stupid/bad plot development what you dislike and don't comprehend. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, No, she didn't. That's the point. Not until the very end, when Mio told her that Reiji himself had told her he was happy that she was alive. Even then, it wasn't knowledge, it was creeping doubt. but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She had no knowledge about it, how could she? The one who should have done so was Reiji, but he didn't - just the opposite. He pleaded guilty. If you want to uphold your position, list episodes and timecodes for evidence that she should have known. She didn't love him. Oh yes, she did. That was the problem. If she hadn't loved him, she wouldn't have been so devastated on hearing that he had abandoned her. And in chapter 3, if she hadn't loved him, he would have been dead. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. This aspect is partly true. Since there WAS NOONE to protect and save her, she turned into phantom. The victim turned into the villain. That was her way to cope with things. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. Nonsense. It was a misunderstanding because Reiji never TOLD his side, and instead pretended to be guilty. If he had done that, things would probably have developed differently. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. Wow, this is breathtakingly stupid. In case you failed to watch the show, she was NEVER shown to be happy about his feelings in chapter 3. She was first angry, and then at the end crying her eyes out. But please indicate episodes and timecodes to show where she was happy about her misunderstanding. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love. Taken completely out of context, it simply doesn't apply for a non-civilian like Cal. I even explained that before, but then again, you suck at understanding explanations too, so it's par for the course. The reason why I'm so often provoked to react to your notes is that you're the posterboy of a kind of anime viewer which I abhor: The judgmental oblivious omniscient-viewer. Who is either too lazy or intellectually incapable of seeing the points of view of the characters he is judging. Who is applying his omniscient-viewer knowledge to decree that what some character is doing is right or wrong, no matter whether or not it's applicable. If the story doesn't develop the way he wants to, it's "bad storywriting" or "dumb" or "makes no sense". It's people like you who I consider the gravediggers of complex anime. Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding. Those who can't differentiate between what people can and can't know, how their own motivations and dispositions influence their decisions, and who blame their own shortcomings or laziness (pick your poison) on the anime writers instead. Think about that in a quiet moment. Seriously. |
| Best episode so far - most mature. Well, apart from ridiculous Ein pawnz0r killing action. Alternative reality shown in car was cool addition. Without some garbage episodes and stupid dialogues/scenes Phantom could be great show. Wasted potential. |
| @Mentar: you try too hard to put depth from the visual novel into the anime. Unfortunately, you are overanalyzing stuffs from tha anime. By your standard, every single series out there can be "deep". Unfortunately, this anime does NOT fall into the "very complex and deep" anime category. Its themes are "dark" but definitely NOT very deep or complex. And also, Mentar, you have to realize that what you are stating is your own interpretation of the series, NOT the absolute truth. NoteDhero's interpretation of the series is reasonable as well, if you look at it from one perspecitve. Your interpretation is from another persipective. Period. And by the way, the fact that Cal survived in a harsh environment has NOTHING to do with the maturity of her thinking and behaviour. She survived because she lived with her friend, then because of Reiji and finally because of SM. She isn't stupid in the sense that she is skillful and an intelligent learner. Emotionally speaking, she is very naive and immature, and was easily manipulated by SM. You can partially blame SM for what happened but it was also because of Reiji's stupidity as well. And you should be more respectful of other users you refer as those "Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding." You are literally saying, in a nice play of word, that NoteDhero is an idiot. That is very disrespectful for users who simply has a different opinion than you. Start calling users idiots because they disagree with you is not going to get you anywhere. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Lol @ Cal Fans drowning in their sorrows. Hooray for Ein ending :) |
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wakka9ca said: @Mentar: you try too hard to put depth from the visual novel into the anime. Unfortunately, you are overanalyzing stuffs from tha anime. By your standard, every single series out there can be "deep". Only in a single instance I put VN knowledge into my rebuttal (to indicate where it deviated from the anime). All other details I mentioned came from the anime itself. It is simply up to the reader to pick them up or overlook them. Unfortunately, this anime does NOT fall into the "very complex and deep" anime category. Its themes are "dark" but definitely NOT very deep or complex. That's a relative statement. It definitely was much more deep than NoteDHero made it, that's why I pointed things out. And I feel the need to also note that you failed to address a single point I made as incorrect. What remains is the usual setup: Those people who take some effort in analyzing a show defending it, and those people who have a tendency to dismiss as stupid whatever they can't understand. The "pro" people give evidence for their positions, the "con" people don't. And also, Mentar, you have to realize that what you are stating is your own interpretation of the series, NOT the absolute truth. NoteDhero's interpretation of the series is reasonable as well, if you look at it from one perspecitve. Your interpretation is from another persipective. Period. Not period. I give evidence to support my position. You and him just put down a claim and fail to give evidence. It's pretty much always the same. If you feel you have worthwhile complaints to lodge, give them. And by the way, the fact that Cal survived in a harsh environment has NOTHING to do with the maturity of her thinking and behaviour. She survived because she lived with her friend, then because of Reiji and finally because of SM. She isn't stupid in the sense that she is skillful and an intelligent learner. And that is exactly the point I was making. Cal isn't "stupid" in the meaning of the word. Emotionally speaking, she is very naive and immature, and was easily manipulated by SM. You can partially blame SM for what happened but it was also because of Reiji's stupidity as well. Immature - okay. Easily manipulated - also okay, I guess. SM is excellent at that, as we know. But under the given circumstances (Cal under massive shock, and the facts looking extremely damning against Reiji), I don't see why her turning out as-is would not be understandable. And you should be more respectful of other users you refer as those "Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding." You are literally saying, in a nice play of word, that NoteDhero is an idiot. That is very disrespectful for users who simply has a different opinion than you. Start calling users idiots because they disagree with you is not going to get you anywhere. This shoe is up for yourself to wear or not. I don't criticize people as oblivious very easily, you need to earn the honor, and NoteDHero sure as hell did. I have my doubts that he'll do what I suggest and reflect whether or not what I wrote was justified or not, but I'll most definitely spell it out. I also do enjoy discussions - even controversial ones - with people who have differing opinions, as long as they're willing to back them up and to try to contradict my own standpoints. But all too often that doesn't happen, because blanket sweeping criticism like "this character is stupid, the anime is stupid, the plot is making no sense blah blah" is making a detailed debate impossible. If you do go the "diss it all" way, make sure you do it with justification, and not have future developments contradict whatever you said (happened all too often). Or just leave to nicer animes. But if you do stay and diss, don't cry if you catch flak for it. |
| Why would people try and contradict you when you are basically repeating the same thing over and over again? Why should they waste their time and ruin the show just like you are doing right now? You are obviously not a real fan, no matter what you say. So you liked the Visual novel? Who the fuck cares? You should really just shut the fuck up and let people enjoy the show. It's an Ein ending. Cal died and it was her fault, if you are trying to put the blame on Reiji, you also have to put the blame on other people *cough* Sycthe *cough* It's people like you that discourage people to watch this show. |
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Mentar said: Now that's what I call rewriting history. Ever since chapter 3 began, your meme has been "this show/Cal are stupid and making no sense". And now that the motivation and reason behind Cal's actions finally becomes evident, you suddenly pretend that this was what you said all along. It wasn't. You're finally shifting your position a bit closer to the truth and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Even so, you're still off. So I'll take my time to recreate and comment on the development once more. Cal isn't "stupid", she never has been, in fact she has shown the capability to quickly grasp and process new information, particularly in chapter 2. And it most certainly hasn't been "bad plot development", which in your use is a synonym for "I don't like/comprehend the way things are going". Cal underwent several stages of development in the third chapter, and "one size fits all" (she was stupid all along) is the conveniently arrogant-dismissive oversimplification which got on my nerve all the time. "Immature" - attributing this to a little girl who managed to survive on her own in urban Armerica is questionable to begin with. Abandonment issues is naturally true: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did. Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl. Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him. Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay. So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance. However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days. Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim. Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night. It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died. So, we had a gradual development over multiple phases, and seen from her POV (something which you _always_ fail to do), it's been fairly understandable why she reacted the way she did. Instead, you're going with your usual oblivious omniscient-viewer knowledge and arrogantly declare stupid/bad plot development what you dislike and don't comprehend. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, No, she didn't. That's the point. Not until the very end, when Mio told her that Reiji himself had told her he was happy that she was alive. Even then, it wasn't knowledge, it was creeping doubt. She had no knowledge about it, how could she? The one who should have done so was Reiji, but he didn't - just the opposite. He pleaded guilty. If you want to uphold your position, list episodes and timecodes for evidence that she should have known. Oh yes, she did. That was the problem. If she hadn't loved him, she wouldn't have been so devastated on hearing that he had abandoned her. And in chapter 3, if she hadn't loved him, he would have been dead. This aspect is partly true. Since there WAS NOONE to protect and save her, she turned into phantom. The victim turned into the villain. That was her way to cope with things. Nonsense. It was a misunderstanding because Reiji never TOLD his side, and instead pretended to be guilty. If he had done that, things would probably have developed differently. Wow, this is breathtakingly stupid. In case you failed to watch the show, she was NEVER shown to be happy about his feelings in chapter 3. She was first angry, and then at the end crying her eyes out. But please indicate episodes and timecodes to show where she was happy about her misunderstanding. Taken completely out of context, it simply doesn't apply for a non-civilian like Cal. I even explained that before, but then again, you suck at understanding explanations too, so it's par for the course. The reason why I'm so often provoked to react to your notes is that you're the posterboy of a kind of anime viewer which I abhor: The judgmental oblivious omniscient-viewer. Who is either too lazy or intellectually incapable of seeing the points of view of the characters he is judging. Who is applying his omniscient-viewer knowledge to decree that what some character is doing is right or wrong, no matter whether or not it's applicable. If the story doesn't develop the way he wants to, it's "bad storywriting" or "dumb" or "makes no sense". It's people like you who I consider the gravediggers of complex anime. Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding. Those who can't differentiate between what people can and can't know, how their own motivations and dispositions influence their decisions, and who blame their own shortcomings or laziness (pick your poison) on the anime writers instead. Think about that in a quiet moment. Seriously. It's funny that you say that since the beginning of the arc I've only been saying that the show and Cal are stupid and make no sense. In the episode 20 discussion, I express my shock at the change in Cal, and say nothing regarding her being stupid since I don't even think she said more than 3 lines in the episode (if any). We had one discussion in episode 21 regarding the disconnect I felt betweeen Cal's behavior and the time skip, and somehow that paint everything in the proceeding episode discussions. I purposefully kept mum on discussing her because I believe you said something to the effect of "I don't want to spoil you, but it get explained." You also made references in subsequent discussions about how "if the viewers are paying attention, things about what happened during the timeskip become more obvious." My comments have pretty much stuck to the formula: "adjective" episode, couple of things I found noteworthy that maybe haven't been discussed. Here are the places in which I join episode discussions if you disagree and would like to point out those places where I am wrong: 20 21 22 23 24 In 21's discussion, I state how it seems like Cal hates Reiji because he left her, and Scythe using simple manipulation to exacerbate her darker feelings. I also noted (either in that discusson or another), that because we got little insight into Reiji's drastic change that it wouldn't be likely that we would get one with Cal. What more got explained during the course of the arc? You tend to harp on the word "stupid" in my comments to describe Cal (which, during the course of this arc has only really been used in this discussion I believe). What you overlook is that I have used the word "simple" more to describe her. She was a very superficial character that existed almost entirely to antagonize Reiji in this arc. I do believe that I have remarked that it felt like she acted only as plot dicatated as opposed to a whole character, and I stand by that statement. Something that I have tried to say using different tactics now is that we are initially told this: Cal is a cunning girl who has a bit of a dark side that comes out when she wants revenge. She is also very upbeat considering her terrible past, talented at fixing things, and has a natural inclination towards firearms. The word genius is thrown around a lot. We find out later that she has grown fond of Reiji, and in defending him as a "good" assassin, we see that she is quite naive. What we get in the third arc is a Cal who focuses her cunning mind and talent at weapons as the third Phantom incarnation, with her only goal to destroy Reiji. She does not use this mind to deduce what happens during the events of the night that significantly changed her life. Although being very fond of Reiji, she never outright asks him what happened. Though she was told a couple of times by Lizzie that she and Reiji were trying to protect her, she is totally blinded by her bloodlust and eventually kills her. These aren't the actions of a smart character. These are the actions of the simple minded protagonists of shounen anime who ignore reality to pursue some righteous ideal. She stands in total contradiction of herself with the only explanation being, "Well, everyone left me, and SM told me what I wanted to hear." Not to mention that SM was a total stranger to her. Reiji made things worse. I had already stated that, but Cal had enough information on her side to question Reiji's circumstances, and ask for an explanation. She meets him a number of times, and never asks for an explanation. That fault lies on both of them. You can't blame one when they're both fully functional individuals. That is yet another assessment I made during this arc: No one cares to say or ask anything that would clear everything up, mostly because they are too selfish to actually see the need for it. As far as the "happy to be ignorant of his feelings" comment goes, you must not be aware of the axiom "ignorance is bliss," so I'll rephrase. Cal did not see the merit in taking Reiji's situation into account. She was already content with burning out, so despite the fact that Lizzie tried to tell her otherwise regarding Reiji, and that even Mio understood him better, Cal defiantly refused to face reality a number of times, and in the end, was actually happy instead of saddened that her death was very avoidable, and that she even killed Lizzie in the process. I'll explain Mio's mothers' words again: If Cal really loved Reiji, she would have recognized his longing to live a normal life and instead of dirty herself to be with him, do that. She didn't love him. She longed to stay under the protection of someone else's watch. Cal is simple. Finally, I agree with wakka. |
| i honestly didnt want Cal to die.. |
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Ximinez said: Best episode so far - most mature. Well, apart from ridiculous Ein pawnz0r killing action. Alternative reality shown in car was cool addition. Without some garbage episodes and stupid dialogues/scenes Phantom could be great show. Wasted potential. I second this. And bottom line, this show is lacking. Some people like it some people don't, no problem with that. But this show is NOT an intellectual brain teaser. Let's be real. And the directing here and there is much to be desired. Definitely wasted potential. Oh and Cal dying? I can't believe they wrapped that up so quickly. Haha. I'm bout ready for this show to be finished. |
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Fleri said: Why would people try and contradict you when you are basically repeating the same thing over and over again? Why should they waste their time and ruin the show just like you are doing right now? You are obviously not a real fan, no matter what you say. So you liked the Visual novel? Who the fuck cares? You should really just shut the fuck up and let people enjoy the show. It's an Ein ending. Cal died and it was her fault, if you are trying to put the blame on Reiji, you also have to put the blame on other people *cough* Sycthe *cough* It's people like you that discourage people to watch this show. Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people. I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see? |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
BitchMaster said: Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people. I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see? Yes, coming from the guy who started lashing out when Cal died. Seriously, like I said, stop drowning in your sorrows. suki suki 5 dolla ;) |
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Fleri said: BitchMaster said: Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people. I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see? Yes, coming from the guy who started lashing out when Cal died. Seriously, like I said, stop drowning in your sorrows. suki suki 5 dolla ;) Oh? So pardon my stupidity but what's the relation between what I said regarding people is free to debate in a forum and me "lashing out"? LOL, out of context much? "suki suki 5 dolla"=? LOL ? |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| I'm not even going to bother quoting these epic posts. They're way too long xD To add in my two cents...I'm pretty much in agreement with NoteDhero. The only thing is that, while he seems to dislike Cal for those traits, I actually feel some sympathy for her as a rather tragic character - her inability to see past her delusional and naive beliefs about how things should be rather than how they actually are caused her own downfall. It's been clear that she had a very self-destructive personality (hence, why she had to die, IMO), and this episode did a really good job in showing that part of her psyche. I particularly enjoyed watching her talk with the ghosts of her past. I found it to be a shame that they didn't flesh her out even more until now because, out of the three Phantoms, I find Cal to be the most "complex". I honestly couldn't care less about Reiji and Elen. I think that while their character designs are cool and the premise was good, they fell a bit flat. In terms of development, they haven't really gotten that far with the exception of Elen gaining feelings for Reiji. In terms of the episode itself, though, it had its good points and bad points, as usual. Like I said, I really liked the scene where Cal talks with the "ghosts" of Lizzie, Judy, and that other dude. Other than that, though, I didn't care for much of the other stuff =/ |
| Lol...these posts are quite amusing. It's hard to formulate an opinion for myself, since everyone else's view of the anime is quite reasonable. Overall, reading these forums gives me new insight into what people think of when they watch anime. ^^ |
| No man fails if he does his best - Orison Swett Marden |
| Awww shit. Poor Cal... ;_, |
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| @ noteDheros: your argumentations seem logic and are making sense and i can unterstand your point of view but still i have to disagree in some points. For example your argumentation of what Mio's mother said. Like Menar said, her line doesn't count for Cal because those two lived under different circumstances. Well both of them may have had a "normal" life compared to Reiji and Elen but if you compared under which circumstances Cal, Mio and her mother have lived, it is the same like living in different worlds. I assume that Mio's mother never experience any violent, murder or whatever and Mio even less and like Mentar said, she was never part of the underworld. Cal on the other hand experience them all from the beginning and then seeing how her sister has being murdered right before her eyes, that is not realy a normal life in my eyes^^. And with that event you could say, she was stepping in the underworld already especially after she stole the money. I'll explain Mio's mothers' words again: If Cal really loved Reiji, she would have recognized his longing to live a normal life and instead of dirty herself to be with him, do that. She didn't love him. She longed to stay under the protection of someone else's watch. Cal is simple. In my opinion this argument ist not really correctly because if she didn't really love him, then his betrayal wouldn't effect her that much and she would/ could try to search for someone else who may protect her. I claim to say that the more important one is to you, the stronger are the negativ feeling (like despair/ hatred) you will bear for that person, when this person betrays you. What we get in the third arc is a Cal who focuses her cunning mind and talent at weapons as the third Phantom incarnation, with her only goal to destroy Reiji. She does not use this mind to deduce what happens during the events of the night that significantly changed her life. Although being very fond of Reiji, she never outright asks him what happened. Though she was told a couple of times by Lizzie that she and Reiji were trying to protect her, she is totally blinded by her bloodlust and eventually kills her. I understand your point of view but i have to disagree. I think she wasn't really blinded by her bloodlust, it was more by her hatred and despair. Driving by the hatred she decided to become the phantom (maybe with the intention to find him and ask him. You can't deny that by becoming the Phantom it would be very convenient for her. She would get all the information she needs to track him down.). She may have believed what Lizzie said to her before she was in Japan. This may also be one of her reason, why she didn't kill Reiji right off. But then what Reiji said to her after 2 years brought her hatred to the peak. Do you really think that she would still be able to believe Lizzie when Reiji was pleading for guilty? Reiji made things worse. I had already stated that, but Cal had enough information on her side to question Reiji's circumstances, and ask for an explanation. She meets him a number of times, and never asks for an explanation. You stated it yourself, Reiji made things worse, but i think you missed the point or didnt' take it into account that he also messed up her emotions. His betrayal was comfirmed by himself. There was no point in asking him anymore. She had information and she may have believed im him but he plead for guilty so she comes to the conclusion that her information were false and Lizzie may also lie to her. Well all i wanted to say is, that i can understand what you are trying to say and your arguments are also making sense if you look it from your point of view. But like wakka said try to evaluate the situation or charater from different perspectiv. As far as i have read your post so far they are all from the rational, logical point of view. If my arguments are not good or wrong please tell me =D Also i apologize for my bad english and grammar, I will try my best write my arguments in a decent grammar and manner. |
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the General Forum Guidelines! |
Tomoharu said: @ noteDheros: your argumentations seem logic and are making sense and i can unterstand your point of view but still i have to disagree in some points. For example your argumentation of what Mio's mother said. Like Menar said, her line doesn't count for Cal because those two lived under different circumstances. Well both of them may have had a "normal" life compared to Reiji and Elen but if you compared under which circumstances Cal, Mio and her mother have lived, it is the same like living in different worlds. I assume that Mio's mother never experience any violent, murder or whatever and Mio even less and like Mentar said, she was never part of the underworld. Cal on the other hand experience them all from the beginning and then seeing how her sister has being murdered right before her eyes, that is not realy a normal life in my eyes^^. And with that event you could say, she was stepping in the underworld already especially after she stole the money. I appreciate the tone of your post. I'll try to be quick about this since it's more of a rebuttal than anything else. There is something special about Cal in the circumstances: She willingly stepped into this world. to me, there is a difference between just living off the streets with a prostitute and the world of organized crime. In that regard, Cal did not experience anything like Inferno and it's operation, and is just as ignorant as Mio was, Surely seeing a loved one murdered before your eyes is not normal, and neither is having to live off the streets (for very vague reasons when there are homeless shelters and lots of places that would definitely take in children like Cal), but that is nowhere near the same as taking the leap into being an assassin. You're basically saying that because Cal experienced more of the realities of this series that her actions are justified. By comparison, Reiji was held hostage for I can't remember how long, and still to episode 25 regrets having become an assassin. In my opinion this argument ist not really correctly because if she didn't really love him, then his betrayal wouldn't effect her that much and she would/ could try to search for someone else who may protect her. I claim to say that the more important one is to you, the stronger are the negativ feeling (like despair/ hatred) you will bear for that person, when this person betrays you. I'm not saying that she didn't have feelings for him. I'm saying that those feelings weren't love. I'm saying that she grew dependent on him, and when, for the first time, it seems that she is abandoned by the living, she couldn't take it, snapped, and misplaced her feelings of powerlessness on Reiji and wanted him dead. What you say is totally rational, but I just don't have any reason to believe that Cal is a rational person, looking back at what we're shown. I understand your point of view but i have to disagree. I think she wasn't really blinded by her bloodlust, it was more by her hatred and despair. Driving by the hatred she decided to become the phantom (maybe with the intention to find him and ask him. You can't deny that by becoming the Phantom it would be very convenient for her. She would get all the information she needs to track him down.). She may have believed what Lizzie said to her before she was in Japan. This may also be one of her reason, why she didn't kill Reiji right off. But then what Reiji said to her after 2 years brought her hatred to the peak. Do you really think that she would still be able to believe Lizzie when Reiji was pleading for guilty? Exactly, it was convenient for Cal. This is how she is, very simple-minded. She likes to do the most convenient thing instead of working hard or thinking things through. This goes back to what I said about her not employing any of her cunning in a manner that would have saved her life. I don't think that she did believe Lizzie before Japan. We have nothing to go off of that would make it plausible. We know that she didn't kill Reiji right off because she wanted him to suffer, the same way she made her victims listen to the pocket watch. Moreover, as I have said time and time again, she never once asked for an explanation. She was blinded by her motivation to kill Reiji in some misguided sense of justice. You stated it yourself, Reiji made things worse, but i think you missed the point or didnt' take it into account that he also messed up her emotions. His betrayal was comfirmed by himself. There was no point in asking him anymore. She had information and she may have believed im him but he plead for guilty so she comes to the conclusion that her information were false and Lizzie may also lie to her. She steeped in rage for 2 years. That she didn't once demand an explanation is crazy. Not to mention that she only came at him in a hostile manner, shooting a gun in broad daylight, and then punching him. She even noted that he looked like he had seen a ghost. I wonder why? She refused to put any of the pieces of the puzzle together, and calmly examine the situation objectively despite having enough information to question Reiji's motivations. Well all i wanted to say is, that i can understand what you are trying to say and your arguments are also making sense if you look it from your point of view. But like wakka said try to evaluate the situation or charater from different perspectiv. As far as i have read your post so far they are all from the rational, logical point of view. If my arguments are not good or wrong please tell me =D Also i apologize for my bad english and grammar, I will try my best write my arguments in a decent grammar and manner. No problem. I'm glad you took the time to join MAL and jump into the episode discussion forums so quickly. I hope that you see enough of us outside of this show discussion to get an idea of how we all are as a whole, because I personally know that a lot of these posters are necessary to my experience in these boards. I'd like to think that while being very opinionated, I do try to look from other points of view and choose the one most logical, and appropriate for the story being told. In the case of this show, I just feel like Phantom is a solid concept and story that has a problem fitting it's characters into the plot in a believable manner. I think that when you make big leaps in developing characters using time skips, you're already painting yourself into a bad corner, and leaving things unaddressed only complicates matters |
| Well Cal died and it was probably the only way since she developed a self distractive attitude based on hate. Her bigger problem is that she was full of hate for losing Reiji and because Scythe Master filed her head with it but she didn't have a specific target for her hate since it was impossible for her to really hate Reiji. So she kind of hated the world and herself and she could only find piece in death. Well the way things were there really wasn't a place for her anymore anyway. Even if somewhere inside her believed she could still live with Reiji the existence of Ellen made that impossible and she couldn't just continue what she was doing. She was acting smartass but she was suffering so therefore death was the solution. Mio excepted the situation(this girl kind of impressed me on how smart she turned out to be) and Ein did all in her power to convince Reiji to actually fight Cal and not try to go down like a tragic hero. Ein really kicked some ass but i still disapprove scenes were characters just dance around hundreds of flying pullets. At least it wasn't as bad as the Cal scene. Now Scythe Master arrived with his little puppets and it looks like a pissed off Reiji will finally nail his ass this time. We have a big fight coming up. Let's hope Ein won't end up as a casualty but you never know in the end Mio might be the winner. In the end i have to say i really enjoyed it and this was one of the best episodes of the series. |
MonadSep 22, 2009 7:46 PM
| really love this anime |
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| wow......I usually try to read all of a topic before I post....but f* that WAY to much text for my liking... Anyway I think this was a pretty good episode I still hate Drei but the alternate reality it flashed too made me relate Cal to Drei and it did make me a bit sad to see her go. I miss Cal though.......I think I'll go through the VN now and get the Cal ending where she doesn't lose her mind and become psychotic Drei. |
| i feel sorry for cal...although it's a very idiotic of reiji to kill her but, that's the element, spices or whatever to make this anime the best! if he didn't kill her, she would probably snatch reiji away from elen & oh God! *sweating* cal is my fave but i've to accept her death...(wth i'm talking about?!) hopefully, reiji & elen will be together forever and infinity! |
| to summarize what i wrote here in one word: crap to much specualation and rushed with the text. so it end up being terrible bad. i apologize |
TomoharuSep 24, 2009 2:12 AM
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| The thing is that a lot of your disagreements are based wholly on specualation, and they run both ways. I think people who defend Cal in this instance give her way too much benefit of the doubt and totally ignore the fact that she is supposed to be a bright character capable of simple deduction and making choices of her own accord. Cal was not being held as a hostage. She chose to be there. Reiji never held her against her will, and if I remember correctly, never even told her about becoming Phantom since she was already steeped in taking revenge against what's her names' murder. There is no comparison to be made. I see no reason to believe that Inferno was worried about Cal at all. They were already in pursuit of Reiji, and three days after the explosion, only SM was looking for her. Since she was only an apprentice, and never vetted, Cal could have gotten off scott free. This was yet another out for her to live a normal life. But that didn't happen. She chose to believe yet another stranger and join Inferno for real. No. Cal would have never accepted losing Reiji gradually. She has anger issues after this when she had every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think she would have accepted Reiji trying to reject her. But now that's going into speculation about two characters (one of which would be totally out of character) so there's little point arguing. You can't compare Cal's reactions to that of a normal girl, and then say she isn't a normal girl in another sentence. This is another problem that I think people who sympathize with Cal have, not admitting the fact that Cal is insane by the start of this third arc. She confronted Reiji during Mio's first and second dates, shortly after Mio's first date, and in the church twice. Not to mention a phone call. Not once did she ask him a single question. She wasn't looking for an explanation because she was obsessed with killing/being killed by Reiji. Here's what those two possibilities hinge on: 1) Believing in Reiji and Lizzie who wanted a better life for her, and moving on. 2) Believing a total stranger who only has something to gain by taking her in. She trusted SM more than Reiji's feelings for her, and that's why I don't think she loved him. She never asked for an explanation, so that only solidifies that for me. She was intent on living a short, lonely life, destroying everything around her and being used by Inferno, rather than to create a life of her own. I don't believe that Reiji betrayed her. He saw the house that he told her not to leave from blow up. He got back the girl he actually loves, and since they had to be on the run, left. He betrayed her by lying/failing to disclose about Ein, but that's it. There was little, if any malicious intent. If there is anyone to be labled with betrayal, it's Cal. She wanted Reiji dead and only pushed him into a corner. This goes back to my thought that people want to absolve Cal of all her actions (or lack thereof) because of her immature delusions and having to finally face reality. The leap was totally on purpose, it's the second one in the show. My biggest thing about the leap is that it leaves such a huge gap in a character that wasn't really explored, and doesn't venture to explore the character unil she's drunk and hallucinating. The most work they did on Cal as a character was in this episode, but it was quite empty because we see her talking to people she killed and running at the mouth, in a hollowly sympathetic manner. Some people really buy into the the sympathy that is shown on her here, and then remembering her in the second arc, want to side with her despite all of her crazy actions. Reiji is to blame, Scythe Master is to blame, but Cal holds the brunt of it. |
noteDheroSep 23, 2009 1:07 PM
The thing is that a lot of your disagreements are based wholly on specualation, and they run both ways. I think people who defend Cal in this instance give her way too much benefit of the doubt and totally ignore the fact that she is supposed to be a bright character capable of simple deduction and making choices of her own accord. Well I agree with what you are saying, it is correct that I may sympahtisize with her a little bit too much and may ignore some facts. But I still think if one is controlled by his/ her emotion that person will not be able to deduct the correct reason and is easily manipulated. But all in all I can say is that I agree. You are right. Cal was not being held as a hostage. She chose to be there. Reiji never held her against her will, and if I remember correctly, never even told her about becoming Phantom since she was already steeped in taking revenge against what's her names' murder. There is no comparison to be made. I see no reason to believe that Inferno was worried about Cal at all. They were already in pursuit of Reiji, and three days after the explosion, only SM was looking for her. Since she was only an apprentice, and never vetted, Cal could have gotten off scott free. This was yet another out for her to live a normal life. But that didn't happen. She chose to believe yet another stranger and join Inferno for real. Well it makes sense what you are saying, but I still held on my theorie =D since it sounds interesting xD But there is still one point where I have to disagree. If she might not believed SM then there would be still the possibility that SM might let her kidnapped and makes her into Phantom by brainwashing her. This could be also an option because SM knew her (well according to what he said, maybe I missunderstood something^^) No. Cal would have never accepted losing Reiji gradually. She has anger issues after this when she had every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think she would have accepted Reiji trying to reject her. But now that's going into speculation about two characters (one of which would be totally out of character) so there's little point arguing. You might be right she might not accept a rejection but she would not turn that way she was shown in the 3rd arc. She might protest at the beginning but I think that she would accept it later than. You can't compare Cal's reactions to that of a normal girl, and then say she isn't a normal girl in another sentence. This is another problem that I think people who sympathize with Cal have, not admitting the fact that Cal is insane by the start of this third arc. She confronted Reiji during Mio's first and second dates, shortly after Mio's first date, and in the church twice. Not to mention a phone call. Not once did she ask him a single question. She wasn't looking for an explanation because she was obsessed with killing/being killed by Reiji. I admit that she was insane blinded by her hatred with the beginning of the 3rd arc. But then I could say that it is more a "normal" reaction of her for not asking for any explanation because people often tends to not ask for explanation when one is angry at someone. They throw their anger at first at that person by yelling or whatever. After their anger reduced by the time they will ask for an explanation or them come to the conclusion that they missunderstood each other or their reaction was exaggerated (that is something I often observe in my enviroment) and like you later said she was insane, maybe because of that insanity her anger didn't reduced by the time so she could not ask him because she is still in the state of throwing her anger at him. But I still don't think that she was really obsessed with killing/ being killed by him. I assume that it was more of an excuse to search for him, like it was being mentioned in that alternative world scene, she said that she would follow/ search for him even if she has go to hell. But all in all I have nothing to oppose your arguments. Here's what those two possibilities hinge on: 1) Believing in Reiji and Lizzie who wanted a better life for her, and moving on. 2) Believing a total stranger who only has something to gain by taking her in. She trusted SM more than Reiji's feelings for her, and that's why I don't think she loved him. She never asked for an explanation, so that only solidifies that for me. She was intent on living a short, lonely life, destroying everything around her and being used by Inferno, rather than to create a life of her own. I don't believe that Reiji betrayed her. He saw the house that he told her not to leave from blow up. He got back the girl he actually loves, and since they had to be on the run, left. He betrayed her by lying/failing to disclose about Ein, but that's it. There was little, if any malicious intent. If there is anyone to be labled with betrayal, it's Cal. She wanted Reiji dead and only pushed him into a corner. This goes back to my thought that people want to absolve Cal of all her actions (or lack thereof) because of her immature delusions and having to finally face reality. Nothing to oppose, just one thing, there is still the possibility that SM would let her kidnapped to make her into Phantom like I said before =D He may be or was interested in her since she was an apprentice of Reiji. The leap was totally on purpose, it's the second one in the show. My biggest thing about the leap is that it leaves such a huge gap in a character that wasn't really explored, and doesn't venture to explore the character unil she's drunk and hallucinating. The most work they did on Cal as a character was in this episode, but it was quite empty because we see her talking to people she killed and running at the mouth, in a hollowly sympathetic manner. Some people really buy into the the sympathy that is shown on her here, and then remembering her in the second arc, want to side with her despite all of her crazy actions. Reiji is to blame, Scythe Master is to blame, but Cal holds the brunt of it. Well I did not say that I blame SM or Reiji or someone just because Cal ended that way and ended up being killed by Reiji. (Nevertherless I still wished that it would end up in a different way like he being killed =D that would be for my taste a nice bad ending (muahaha) xD) I just said that his attitude wanting a normal life but killing in order to survive contradict. That is something that in my opinion does not fit together. But I have to wait for the last episode to make solid opinion of him. All in all you convinced me ;) thought I will still held on some of my theses so it would be much more fun for the future :D |
TomoharuSep 23, 2009 2:38 PM
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| I hope there will be a 2nd season.. lol oh well can't wait for the last episode |
| Oh my gawd, so much discussion over really simple anime. I dunno, maybe VN had more depth, but without knowing that.. Well, it's still best action theme I've seen ever, but idolizing and putting it too high really doesn't suit it. It's not NGE ffs (althou, seeing how people discuss over and over some series, I'd say we NEED another anime like NGE, at least to have something we can maturely talk about. And I long for that kind of series too). Anyways, from beginning of 3rd arc I was really disappointed, and just now, at this ep I've regeined faith in phantom. It really was great one, we had nice share of character development, we had conclusion.. The only thing out of place is riddiculous SM (I know he has his fans, but really, come on, he's more unrealistic with his manipulative "powers" than phantoms in fight), but it's anime after all. Looking forward to last ep.. Wishing for happy ending, but at the same time, I won't be disappointed if they decided to end it bitter. It would fit series' climate, after all ;) PS. Yes, I didn't care about Cal at all, since she showed up first time, till now, but even if I'd prefer her character over Elen, I wouldn't be so mad about her dying right now, it made sense and was logical stepping stone in ending. PS2. DAMN, can't wait for DtB 2, at last something mature, non-involving kids will show up on my radar (hopefully this one new kid won't screw up climate from 1st series) |
NiklaiSep 24, 2009 2:05 PM
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| You know what I thought? I thought that Reiji would do the same thing as Elen. You know the episode when Elen "KILLS" Reiji? Well thats what I thought Reiji would do. He'd probably be like "Cal I'm sorry," and than shoot the gun saying "You are no longer Cal," and than give some random name like Elen did to Reiji. |
| Sig iz in deh makingz Still learningz :3 |
Otaku_Hikikomori said: You know what I thought? I thought that Reiji would do the same thing as Elen. You know the episode when Elen "KILLS" Reiji? Well thats what I thought Reiji would do. He'd probably be like "Cal I'm sorry," and than shoot the gun saying "You are no longer Cal," and than give some random name like Elen did to Reiji. Sorry, but that would just be stupid. For one thing Cal would have just shot him if he missed her. Besides Cal needed to die because she was just so whiny. You didn't see Ein constantly bitching about how she had been experimented on, drugged so much that she had no memory, forced to be the puppet/plaything of some demented german scientist and probably raped and humiliated in bizarre ways no sane mind would ever want to imagine. Cal on the other hand cannot forgive Ein and Zwei for running off together when Zwei thought she was dead. It's actually rather sadly hilarious when you think of it in those terms when Mao tells Ein that she feels sorry for Cal because she's had to go through all that psychological torture of having her onesided boyfriend leave her. Of all three of them Cal had the least reason to become a sadistic sociopath but of all three of them she's probably the most sociopathic and definitely the most sadistic. She IS hotter than Ein, though. At least she is now that she doesn't look like she's 10. She seriously looked at least 8 years older after the time skip. Maybe she was just malnourished? |
Oh my gawd, so much discussion over really simple anime. I dunno, maybe VN had more depth, but without knowing that.. Well, it's still best action theme I've seen ever, but idolizing and putting it too high really doesn't suit it. It's not NGE ffs @Niklai please don't say that. people have different taste, opinion, point of view and standards when watching animes. Just because you like NGE and think highly of it doesn't mean that everyone automatically agree with you. I have met enough people who dislike NGE. I have watched NGE and I liked, it was very interesting but I do not say that people who idolize this anime are idiots and if people think that this anime is not simple like you claim then it is their opinion and their right to think so. You may not had any ill intention but your post sounds ignorant and arrogant by saying "It's not NGE ffs" Sorry, but that would just be stupid. For one thing Cal would have just shot him if he missed her. Besides Cal needed to die because she was just so whiny. You didn't see Ein constantly bitching about how she had been experimented on, drugged so much that she had no memory, forced to be the puppet/plaything of some demented german scientist and probably raped and humiliated in bizarre ways no sane mind would ever want to imagine. Cal on the other hand cannot forgive Ein and Zwei for running off together when Zwei thought she was dead. sorry to say that DrHouse but you are wrong. you can't compare those two with each other. Ein has been force to be become a puppet, that is correct and the result is that she lost her emotion and her own will. If one does not have any emotion one cannot complain, whine because you don't feel disgust, hate or sadness or whatever. If her emotion has not being erased than she might also be whiny like Cal but than she wouldn't be Phantom. Cal's emotion on the other hand has not being erased. So she is able to be whiny because Reiji and Elen run off together etc. Puppets do not feel and do not complain but human do. |
TomoharuSep 25, 2009 6:13 AM
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| By 'it's not NGE ffs' I mean: come on, it's not philosophical anime, it action-themed. And yeah, I admit, Phantom focuses a bit at psychological issues, but still it's not THAT deep and worth 100posts over one ep. Regardless if someone liked/disliked NGE, it is philosophy/psychology canon in anime. |
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| I understand what you are saying i agree. Philosophy/psychology animes like NGE have more room for discussions and the story itself is one of the best that i have seen so far^^ but it's still the viewer's opinion to think if an anime is that deep and worth 100post over one ep regardless of the genre. well thats my opinion^^ |
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