New
Nov 7, 2013 4:05 PM
#321
Mahou_Kony said: As I recall from a... similar incident, yes. Because it's essentially hiding evidence of you breaking rules.Removed post that was in a series of off-topic posts. Deleting off topic posts is against the rules? That doesn't make any sense.Threatening to report is another matter that I'm not sure where it fits. Mod Edit: Modified quote text. |
KinetaNov 8, 2013 10:33 AM
Nov 7, 2013 4:10 PM
#322
It's also "undoing" your own rule break, though. At least, to the extent that your "bad" posts no longer exist in the thread, which is what the mods would do anyway. I think that we should encourage people to self-moderate. Also, its sketchy because, at what point does a post officially break the rules? If I write a rule breaking post, am I not allowed to edit it or delete it immediately? How much time does it have to sit in the thread before it's against the rules for me to edit/delete it? 30 seconds, 5 minutes? It's not clear. |
JoshNov 7, 2013 4:13 PM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Nov 7, 2013 4:19 PM
#323
Mahou_Kony said: I think this is off topic, but if you write a whole string of posts like Nidhoeggr did, and then delete your posts an hour later, that doesn't really solve anything. The thread has still been derailed, and people offended and whatnot.It's also "undoing" your own rule break, though. At least, to the extent that your "bad" posts no longer exist in the thread, which is what the mods would do anyway. I think that we should encourage people to self-moderate. Also, its sketchy because, at what point does a post officially break the rules? If I write a rule breaking post, am I not allowed to edit it or delete it immediately? How much time does it have to sit in the thread before it's against the rules for me to edit/delete it? 30 seconds, 5 minutes? It's not clear. If we encourage people to self-moderate, it should be to self-moderate with the intent to promote constructive discussion rather than to self-moderate with the intent to save their own asses. The distinction may not always be apparent, but it's there. Like the Insult topic, I think this is something that could benefit from being further defined. |
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Nov 7, 2013 4:24 PM
#324
elite-sama said: Yeah, I'm going to leave it at that.I think this is off topic |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Nov 7, 2013 4:57 PM
#325
The best way to prevent the topic from being derailed is to 'discuss' the current topic - but right now the only way I see that happening is with a response from the mods towards the current ideas (which aren't that many) or from new people giving their opinions or new ideas. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
Nov 7, 2013 5:02 PM
#326
Aloxamax said: Well to be clear, we just dug up some really grey area things that are worth elaborating on by mods before we go much further.The best way to prevent the topic from being derailed is to 'discuss' the current topic - but right now the only way I see that happening is with a response from the mods towards the current ideas (which aren't that many) or from new people giving their opinions or new ideas. And as we've seen in this quickly-heading-to-circle-jerk-thread territory, new ideas/users are getting... "discussed" (in large fault due to the user posting them) into derailment. But hey, I like this back and forth with the mods (or just Kineta). It keeps us regularly updated, even if progress might be a little slow. |
Nov 7, 2013 5:23 PM
#327
MellowJello said: Well to be clear, we just dug up some really grey area things that are worth elaborating on by mods before we go much further. Well, ideally grey is where it should be. And most people apparently agreed with the policy once it was posted and the issue lied in the inconsistency of the mods' actions so most complaints/comments became off-topic. MellowJello said: And as we've seen in this quickly-heading-to-circle-jerk-thread territory, new ideas/users are getting... "discussed" (in large fault due to the user posting them) into derailment. But hey, I like this back and forth with the mods (or just Kineta). It keeps us regularly updated, even if progress might be a little slow. Slow progress is better than none at all, I'm perfectly fine with waiting as long as I know that I'm waiting for something. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
Nov 7, 2013 7:02 PM
#328
I'm kinda confused. I already got 2 warnings from 2 diff mods. 1st, before this insult policy shit. 2nd, after this insult policy shit. And it was this thread http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=686209 for "guessing" the person above me. Mod linked me this http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=682319&show=260#msg26181677 This is one area we don't have nailed down yet. I'd say after a year the warnings probably are off the radar, within a month it's going to be given full weight. In between that it will probably be a factor of who the second moderator is and what the infraction is. The longer between them, the less weight an existing warning is given. What does this leave things? Are insult warnings graver than other warnings?Sorry I can't be more precise on this. Since I'm aware of the circumstances, I'll keep it in mind, and I tried to provide enough info when logging it to give the maximum potential for leniency since it was forum games and the first day of the tougher enforcement policy. |
Nov 7, 2013 7:04 PM
#329
XVIII said: If all you got were warnings and you haven't been banned, I don't know why you'd think so. By the way, don't talk about specific mod decisions, they don't like being put on the spot.Are insult warnings graver than other warnings? |
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Nov 7, 2013 7:27 PM
#330
elite-sama said: Well, no. They're *somewhat* okay with mod decisions being listed, as long as you use them to further your argument.XVIII said: If all you got were warnings and you haven't been banned, I don't know why you'd think so. By the way, don't talk about specific mod decisions, they don't like being put on the spot.Are insult warnings graver than other warnings? They don't want mod names. Ever. XVIII said: Aaaand another grey area to bring up with the mod team. Dandy.2nd, after this insult policy shit. And it was this thread http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=686209 for "guessing" the person above me. Mod linked me this http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=682319&show=260#msg26181677 For myself (or anyone, derp):
|
Nov 8, 2013 5:54 AM
#331
Immahnoob said: @BeyondNero, Your idea is retarded, no no, let's not call it retarded, let's call it exaggerated, you're saying the same things like the others but taking them to the extreme. You wanna talk shit do it in your home, This an open community and if you make a mistake you should be punished, It seems that you want more lite rules so you can insult people and get away with it. Giving the fact that you are the guest of honor in the irc. |
BeyondNeroNov 8, 2013 6:10 AM
Nov 8, 2013 6:07 AM
#332
Oh, it's no problem for me, I've always been subtle with my insults, I don't need much to get things to work my way, and I don't need to be too colorful to have it my way either. The problem is that with your idea most of the people of MAL would be banned, and I don't think they want to cut off a shitload of the community. And I don't think you know what a "honer" is, but nonetheless, in the small community of IRC everyone is a guest of "honor". |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Nov 8, 2013 6:20 AM
#333
Immahnoob said: Oh, it's no problem for me, I've always been subtle with my insults, I don't need much to get things to work my way, and I don't need to be too colorful to have it my way either. The problem is that with your idea most of the people of MAL would be banned, and I don't think they want to cut off a shitload of the community. And I don't think you know what a "honer" is, but nonetheless, in the small community of IRC everyone is a guest of "honor". First of all sorry for the misspell. Second, Indeed your right about how most of people would be banned if my "Policy" was MAL's, But just because most MAL users take insults lightly and start talking to people with disrespectful attitude it means to be taking lightly of. |
Nov 8, 2013 6:33 AM
#334
As I said before, you don't force the community to fit in a certain system, you fit the system for the community. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Nov 8, 2013 6:36 AM
#335
Immahnoob said: As I said before, you don't force the community to fit in a certain system, you fit the system for the community. *Community starts posting gore* ADMIN: Gore is allowed! What r u using man? |
Nov 8, 2013 6:47 AM
#336
You're exaggerating again. And also, gore and insults aren't comparable. As in, gore cannot directly offend somebody and can't really be used to directly offend somebody either. An insult will, most of the times directly offend somebody and can be used as such. Mod Edit: Merged posts, removing off-topic discussion. |
KinetaNov 8, 2013 1:24 PM
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Nov 8, 2013 10:24 PM
#337
Thread cleaned. Four pages cleaned... please try to keep the derails and unproductive arguments to a minimum, guys. The more time I spend cleaning this thread, the less time I have to actually address the content in the remaining posts. ____ @XVIII: If you are confused, please reply to the moderator who wrote the PM, asking him the questions that you would like answered. Posting your questions here will lead to further misunderstandings and a public discussion about your offenses, which I don't think you'll want in the end. I am not trying to protect the staff by saying this; I am trying to protect you. If you reply to the moderator saying what you don't understand, I am sure that he will be happy to explain things to you better. _____ Since it's somewhat on topic with my cleaning, let me quickly comment on:
If a user realises that he has gone too far after having a moment or two to calm down, then I think it is a good thing for him to edit his post and tone it down, rather than saying, "what's done is done" *dusts hands*. The problem lies in when the insult has already been quoted and replied to. Then editing your post really doesn't solve the problem. What you could do though (if it hasn't progressed too far), is shoot the user a PM/profile comment apologising for the insult and asking him to modify his post as well, so that the thread doesn't derail. If you can solve the situation in a reasonable manner before the moderators need to intervene, then I don't see an issue with self-moderation. The moderators are not called to inflict punishments just for the sake of, but to settle disputes and enforce order where it has been lost (or soon will be). If you resolve the issue with the user on your own - and the thread is not disturbed - then I don't see a problem. The only problems I see right now arise when you: a) are attempting to be a moderator (i.e. trying to correct someone else's violations that are none of your business); or, b) delete your own posts without attempting to resolve the situation you created at all. Then it just looks like you're hiding, not holding yourself accountable. And moderators are here to hold users accountable who won't do this themselves. |
Nov 10, 2013 5:10 PM
#338
Hi everyone. I'm curious about this whole topic of insults as some of the things that have been suggested over the course of this thread seem to clash directly with the entire principle of freedom of speech. 1. Isn't the whole idea of an insult purely subjective and based within a specific context? 2. If a person is simply bantering with a friend, is it right that a third party who has nothing to do with their discussion finds what they are saying to each other offensive and thus one or both are banned? 3. Some people find what others have to say insulting - regardless of the language they have used - so what actually counts as an insult in the first place? 4. Personal attacks aren't limited to forum discussions. What about profile comments, private messages, and even reviews? 5. What happens if you give a series a perfectly valid opinion that clashes with the belief of the more rabid elements of the fanbase, and are then subjected to a barrage of abuse on your profile or in messages? Will those guilty of this kind of behaviour be banned? 6. What if a person decides to form a club whose sole purpose is to insult people who are giving their honest opinion in a review or discussion by subjecting them to a barrage of abuse? Will the creators and members of a club like this be banned? What about members who do not take part in any abusive behaviour? 7. I like the idea of self-moderation, but is it actually a feasible policy given that the majority of MAL users are little more than children and thus more subject to emotional upheavals and more prone to "feeling insulted" by relatively innocuous comments? 8. How do your rules apply to things like club discussions? 9. Can you be sure that banning someone for a short time will cause them to change their behaviour towards others? 10. If a person does not behave in a reasonable and mature manner, will you permanently ban them with no change in this decision regardless of personal pleas, petitions or assurances from the person banned that they have changed? 11. What will you be doing about historical insults, some of which may date back several years? 12. What happens if someone simply reacts badly to something said to them, but has no actual intent to cause harm and is doing nothing more than acting out? (Again, I refer to the fact that the majority of MAL users are children) Apologies if some of those questions have already been answered already -17 pages is a lot to read. My main purpose in asking those questions to to highlight the fact that what has been discussed here in this thread is little more than a symptom of a greater problem, and those that are more likely to break whatever rules are laid down are actually pretty easy to spot. While I agree with the principles of what you're trying to achieve in this discussion, I think that the approaches given are more work than they need to be. The suggestion of following Youtube's example (three strikes), is a pretty good one if you combine it with the ability to appeal the decision. This allows for analysis of the context and moderation of the issue as the perpetrator's intent may have been very different to the victim's reaction. To be honest, if the purpose of this discussion is construct a set of standardized rules of behaviour for MAL users then you need to take into account more than just the discussions in the forums. There are many factors that lead to the insulting or abusive behaviour here on the internet, and while I agree that racist, sexist, homophobic or abusive comments of any sort should not be tolerated the admins and mods also need to consider why that person may be acting or reacting in a certain way. It may be that they are simply not aware of the rules, or of the fact that many of these types of behaviour are now prosecutable offences in many countries - with punishments ranging from fines to custodial sentences (i.e. prison). Given that factor, it may actually be a better idea for the admins and mods to simply lay down a set of ground rules for behaviour on the site in general, and then modify these over time and with discussion, reflection, the information gained through the appeals system I mentioned earlier, and whatever other factors may come into play in the future. MAL users may moan and complain about the changes at first, but after a few months it will become the norm and those complaints will generally be forgotten. In essence it's mirroring how laws are made and modified, and if that system can work for countries then why not here? |
What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Nov 10, 2013 6:20 PM
#339
@Archaeon: My goodness, quoting every question would be a pain in the patootie, so I'll just answer it by numbers. 1. Covered by the policy Kineta threw up. Some are based on context (indirect insults), some aren't (OP you're a fucking idiot). 2. Case-by-case. Supposedly mods will recognize friendly banter, so if another user is offended by it, well... nothing should happen. Supposedly. 3. I'm not sure. Which brings me up to another question I'll ask Kineta later. **** (for personal reference) 4. That's harassment. Already covered mostly. We're just talking about single time insults, not continual barrages of them aimed at a specific user from a specific user. 5. That would be harassment. Aren't you a reviewer? If that actually happens, I suggest you report them for such. 6. Hate clubs aren't tolerated. I remember the "mod hate club". It's gone. Members who are just "in" it without expressing their hate... nothing happens. Up to the mods, really. Good question nonetheless. **** 7. If you don't self moderate, you get a warning, simple as that. If you do, then you get a cookie (not being warned/banned) for both moderating yourself and cleaning your act up. 8. Club discussions. Anyone's realm. Club moderators are for that. Do whatever you want. If it gets out of a club moderator's control, get the mods in. Good question when mods do get involved. **** 9. No. That's why subsequent bans last longer until permaban (as suggested by another user). 10. I dunno. Up to mods. **** 11. I think those have been forgiven, unless you're referring to literally historical insults ("You're as old as the Great Wall of China"). I've tried finding out by reporting old insults, and they usually just end up being removed without the user being contacted. 12. That would be a misunderstanding, and depending on the context "which a mod should hopefully understand", things may or may not happen. "It depends". As for your the lower portion, yes. There is a large problem that needs to be fixed, and it's super evident with all the users banned for some of the weirdest things, while the ones responsible (Usually the thread makers) appear to get away free. I know it's everyone's responsibility to not post at all, when "bait" occurs, but... yeah no, that's not gonna happen with this age group. You have it wrong. We're not constructing a set of rules, we're only changing what's already there. So for now, we can't particularly tackle that larger "meta" problem. Instead we can only make a stop-gap solution that'll make some (but not everyone) happy. And for everything else, let me try to explain. This is the first time in memory that we've ever had a discussion like this. I'm not even kidding. Read Kineta's first post. They're opening themselves up to have this discussion. And they're doing something new by trying it. As described before, they would just handle policy changes internally, rather than with the userbase. I might've demanded a lot in the beginning (removing bans on insults entirely), but the goal is to make compromises on what can and can't be changed. And depending on how this thread turns out, it might be a stepping stone for something bigger, or just a lost cause. We'll find out soon. edit: added spoiler tags because it was a major eyesore. |
MellowJelloNov 10, 2013 7:25 PM
Nov 10, 2013 7:38 PM
#340
Nov 10, 2013 7:39 PM
#341
Coolspot said: That's a good question. Although this is in Support...I wonder if My warning about 1 year ago for posting in a suggestions thread older than 2 weeks is gone. |
Nov 10, 2013 8:28 PM
#342
@MelloJello Thanks for answering. You've clarified a lot of things for me. I hope the admins and mods find a good compromise that works. |
What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Nov 11, 2013 4:49 PM
#343
@Archaeon Here's my answer to some of your questions, although I'm not a moderator so I'm not sure if you'll find them adequate. Archaeon said: Hi everyone. I'm curious about this whole topic of insults as some of the things that have been suggested over the course of this thread seem to clash directly with the entire principle of freedom of speech. 1. Isn't the whole idea of an insult purely subjective and based within a specific context? Moderators are supposed to establish context and get a feel for the atmosphere before they go crazy with the hammer. If the person who was being insulted (in a friendly manner) tells the moderator that it was all in good fun, I assume the moderator would retract the ban/warning. Archaeon said: 2. If a person is simply bantering with a friend, is it right that a third party who has nothing to do with their discussion finds what they are saying to each other offensive and thus one or both are banned? If it is difficult to establish a friendly or joking manner to the overtone of a conversation, I think the moderator would assume it was hostile, and both would be banned/warned, as (most likely) other users would be unable to indentify it as a friendly conversation either. Archaeon said: 3. Some people find what others have to say insulting - regardless of the language they have used - so what actually counts as an insult in the first place? I would think that moderators only consider things that can be inherently described as "insults" to be insults. If someone says "religion is pretty stupid imo" I don't think that would be subject to scrutiny, but blatant insults such as "you're a retard" would be. It all depends on what the moderator thinks in the end though. Archaeon said: 4. Personal attacks aren't limited to forum discussions. What about profile comments, private messages, and even reviews? Personal attacks can be dealt with via blocking somebody. IIRC, it prevents them from commenting on your profile or sending you messages. If they are creating alternate accounts in order to pester you, you can petition the mods for help by IP banning that person or something, although the perpetrator would most likely be aware of this countermeasure and would be using proxies. Archaeon said: 5. What happens if you give a series a perfectly valid opinion that clashes with the belief of the more rabid elements of the fanbase, and are then subjected to a barrage of abuse on your profile or in messages? Will those guilty of this kind of behaviour be banned? No idea, I'd assume that you should tell a moderator about it, and they would most likely warn the other person unless their actions were severe in which case they'd be banned. Archaeon said: 6. What if a person decides to form a club whose sole purpose is to insult people who are giving their honest opinion in a review or discussion by subjecting them to a barrage of abuse? Will the creators and members of a club like this be banned? What about members who do not take part in any abusive behaviour? I assume the club would be forced to disband or be made secret. I assume warnings and bans would take place on a case by case basis depending on what is found to have been said or done within the club. Archaeon said: 7. I like the idea of self-moderation, but is it actually a feasible policy given that the majority of MAL users are little more than children and thus more subject to emotional upheavals and more prone to "feeling insulted" by relatively innocuous comments? It's not really a policy, more like a get out of jail free card. Typically hostile comments are preserved in quotes anyway, so if you say something extremely offensive, it'd be best to delete it as quickly as possible and make as if it never happened. It's not really an effective method, but it's something to consider for people that post something stupid. Archaeon said: 9. Can you be sure that banning someone for a short time will cause them to change their behaviour towards others? It's impossible to tell if someone will change. In order to account for this, I assume successive bans will be longer in duration, in order to impress upon the person who is guilty of breaking rules that they should change their ways. Archaeon said: 10. If a person does not behave in a reasonable and mature manner, will you permanently ban them with no change in this decision regardless of personal pleas, petitions or assurances from the person banned that they have changed? Case by case basis I would assume. If moderators did let people who were "perma-banned" back in though, it would raise questions I think, such as "if you let him back in, why not that guy?". Archaeon said: 12. What happens if someone simply reacts badly to something said to them, but has no actual intent to cause harm and is doing nothing more than acting out? (Again, I refer to the fact that the majority of MAL users are children) Again, that's left up to a moderators discretion. Since this is about insults, it would be hard to direct insults at someone without the intent to cause harm (assuming you aren't acquainted with the ones you're directing them at). Here's my answer to your closing thoughts: archaeon said: Apologies if some of those questions have already been answered already -17 pages is a lot to read. My main purpose in asking those questions to to highlight the fact that what has been discussed here in this thread is little more than a symptom of a greater problem, and those that are more likely to break whatever rules are laid down are actually pretty easy to spot. While I agree with the principles of what you're trying to achieve in this discussion, I think that the approaches given are more work than they need to be. The suggestion of following Youtube's example (three strikes), is a pretty good one if you combine it with the ability to appeal the decision. This allows for analysis of the context and moderation of the issue as the perpetrator's intent may have been very different to the victim's reaction. To be honest, if the purpose of this discussion is construct a set of standardized rules of behaviour for MAL users then you need to take into account more than just the discussions in the forums. There are many factors that lead to the insulting or abusive behaviour here on the internet, and while I agree that racist, sexist, homophobic or abusive comments of any sort should not be tolerated the admins and mods also need to consider why that person may be acting or reacting in a certain way. It may be that they are simply not aware of the rules, or of the fact that many of these types of behaviour are now prosecutable offences in many countries - with punishments ranging from fines to custodial sentences (i.e. prison). Given that factor, it may actually be a better idea for the admins and mods to simply lay down a set of ground rules for behaviour on the site in general, and then modify these over time and with discussion, reflection, the information gained through the appeals system I mentioned earlier, and whatever other factors may come into play in the future. MAL users may moan and complain about the changes at first, but after a few months it will become the norm and those complaints will generally be forgotten. In essence it's mirroring how laws are made and modified, and if that system can work for countries then why not here? I'm going to disregard the point you're trying to make about some of these things being "prosecutable offenses" as I'm a proponent of internet freedom. There are also plenty of anime and hentai indexed on this website that depict imprisonable offenses, or in fact would be imprisonable offenses just for viewing them depending on said country. I don't think the rules should be applied to the masses for the sake of one particular group (children) In all honesty, it's the parents responsibility to make sure that they think the sites their children frequent are appropriate. Children shouldn't be browsing the site anyway when it catalogs hentai manga and anime. We shouldn't be forced to accommodate or change just because parents are being irresponsible. I don't like the idea of ground rules that would apply to every situation no matter what the context or circumstances were, as it would restrict dialogue unnecessarily and would repress any meaningful discussion. To be quite frank, I don't care if what I say offends anyone. It's up to them to decide if they're going to be bothered or offended by my opinions. They are free to ignore me and my dumb opinions. One of the reasons I browse MAL in the first place is because it's a rather popular website with lenient/liberal rules such as these. If they adopted something more along the lines of what you're suggesting, I think I would stop visiting. |
كنت تهدر وقتك عن طريق ترجمة هذه. mattbenz99 said: Christians and Satanists are technically the same thing |
Nov 11, 2013 6:39 PM
#344
Um Kineta, I doubt this: Kineta said: He hasn't replied to me...I am sure that he will be happy to explain things to you better. I wasn't insulting anyone, I was just guessing aka playing the game but ok. |
Nov 11, 2013 7:19 PM
#345
XVIII said: If you're using the Mibbit client, it doesn't tell you that mods are on "away" status and won't reply back. On that note, since they might've been unable to reply back to you after you logged out, perhaps let them know that they can pm you.Um Kineta, I doubt this: Kineta said: He hasn't replied to me...I am sure that he will be happy to explain things to you better. I wasn't insulting anyone, I was just guessing aka playing the game but ok. Also, I would assume the nature of your posts according to "playing" the game were offensive enough to warrant a 1) report from another user and 2) bad enough that they were deleted. |
Nov 11, 2013 7:30 PM
#346
Yeah which is weird cus I've said more offensive thangs before but only got an insult warning in the Forum Games section. Srry for going kinda off-topic. |
Nov 11, 2013 7:38 PM
#347
XVIII said: ...So you admitted you were insulting :/Yeah which is weird cus I've said more offensive thangs before but only got an insult warning in the Forum Games section. Srry for going kinda off-topic. No problem. Discussion's been slow since everything's been said. I guess now we wait for another mod response. |
Nov 11, 2013 8:03 PM
#349
XVIII said: Perhaps not to the users who you insulted.But it was all in the spirit of fun. Aaand problem spotted. If the insulter was intending to have fun, but the receiver was offended, who exactly is at fault here? *sigh* |
Nov 11, 2013 8:16 PM
#350
MellowJello said: It's subjective unless you specifically define "insult" making it unnecessary to interpret. Which is why I typed out long posts asking for it a few pages back. Oh well, doesn't seem like anyone gets it. A discussion about insults without defining "insults" is exactly the same in structure as a discussion about any other metaphysical proposition that is undefined (e.g. God, souls, truth, freedom, justice, morality): you'll either accept that subjective psychology, in this case on the part of the mods, plays a large part, or you won't get anywhere.XVIII said: Perhaps not to the users who you insulted.But it was all in the spirit of fun. Aaand problem spotted. If the insulter was intending to have fun, but the receiver was offended, who exactly is at fault here? *sigh* |
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Nov 11, 2013 8:19 PM
#351
elite-sama said: Yeah, no one gets it :/ Sorry.MellowJello said: It's subjective unless you specifically define "insult" making it unnecessary to interpret. Which is why I typed out long posts asking for it a few pages back. Oh well, doesn't seem like anyone gets it. A discussion about insults without defining "insults" is exactly the same in structure as a discussion about any other metaphysical proposition that is undefined (e.g. God, souls, truth, freedom, justice, morality): you'll either accept that subjective psychology, in this case on the part of the mods, plays a large part, or you won't get anywhere.XVIII said: Perhaps not to the users who you insulted.But it was all in the spirit of fun. Aaand problem spotted. If the insulter was intending to have fun, but the receiver was offended, who exactly is at fault here? *sigh* And while the mod post "defined" what they think of as an insult, weird situations like this slip through, which is why it'd be better we have a mod respond to it, rather than discussing amongst ourselves. |
Nov 11, 2013 10:19 PM
#352
Kineta said all this: "Insulting a user is an offense, but insulting an idea is not. Direct insults are all rule violations; e.g. "<username> is a cunt". Indirect insults are taken in context; e.g. "anyone who thinks that is a dumbass". Yes, "you're dumb/stupid/an idiot" are insults. Even if you use them colloquially, other users do not. Threads have ended in flamewars over a simple "you're an idiot" post - sometimes even by users who weren't the target." But you can't define an insult better than this. It's the same shit. Certain words that are used as insults remain insults. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Nov 11, 2013 11:09 PM
#353
elite-sama said: It's subjective unless you specifically define "insult" making it unnecessary to interpret. Which is why I typed out long posts asking for it a few pages back. Oh well, doesn't seem like anyone gets it. A discussion about insults without defining "insults" is exactly the same in structure as a discussion about any other metaphysical proposition that is undefined (e.g. God, souls, truth, freedom, justice, morality): you'll either accept that subjective psychology, in this case on the part of the mods, plays a large part, or you won't get anywhere. Hmmm, I think what Kineta was trying to get at is that we should be discussing what to do after a post has been recognized as an insult, everybody has different ways of defining ''insult'' but it doesn't really matter when the statement deeming the post an insult can't be questioned to begin with. Basically, we need to (try to) discuss what should be done in terms of moderation for a post that regardless of content and maybe even context has already been deemed an insult. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
Nov 11, 2013 11:16 PM
#354
Aloxamax said: Well, we already discussed that. Heck, I even asked what katsu thinks, and it turns out he has nothing to add. Anyway, that whole thing above us was mostly just a small slip of what an "insult" is, just drop the topic and wait for a mod to answer. elite-sama said: It's subjective unless you specifically define "insult" making it unnecessary to interpret. Which is why I typed out long posts asking for it a few pages back. Oh well, doesn't seem like anyone gets it. A discussion about insults without defining "insults" is exactly the same in structure as a discussion about any other metaphysical proposition that is undefined (e.g. God, souls, truth, freedom, justice, morality): you'll either accept that subjective psychology, in this case on the part of the mods, plays a large part, or you won't get anywhere. Hmmm, I think what Kineta was trying to get at is that we should be discussing what to do after a post has been recognized as an insult, everybody has different ways of defining ''insult'' but it doesn't really matter when the statement deeming the post an insult can't be questioned to begin with. Basically, we need to (try to) discuss what should be done in terms of moderation for a post that regardless of content and maybe even context has already been deemed an insult. And katsu, if you do have something to add, for the love of thighhighs please do. There's like, what, 4 people who actually suggested something? WE NEED MORE SUGGESTIONS ON POLICY CHANGES. Guh, which reminds me to update my sig... |
Nov 11, 2013 11:24 PM
#355
MellowJello said: Most problems and complaints were more whining than anything (or cases that need to be brought up with certain mods) there wasn't really anything against the actual policy and it seems pretty reasonable, it's natural that people won't come up with anything.Well, we already discussed that. Heck, I even asked what katsu thinks, and it turns out he has nothing to add. Anyway, that whole thing above us was mostly just a small slip of what an "insult" is, just drop the topic and wait for a mod to answer. And katsu, if you do have something to add, for the love of thighhighs please do. There's like, what, 4 people who actually suggested something? WE NEED MORE SUGGESTIONS ON POLICY CHANGES. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
Nov 11, 2013 11:29 PM
#356
How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. |
Nov 11, 2013 11:33 PM
#357
I've read Kineta's post when it was first posted. But people continue to ask about ambiguities regarding intentionality and other issues. If Kineta's post can be taken literally and definitively, then it shouldn't be an issue anymore whether any specific action counts as a violation or not. |
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Nov 11, 2013 11:46 PM
#358
Iasuru said: Because if you haven't been reading, we're suggesting what to change when a large amount of people disagree with what you've just said.How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. elite-sama said: I would rather have weird things cleared up rather than just left open. Mods and their consistency are still in question.I've read Kineta's post when it was first posted. But people continue to ask about ambiguities regarding intentionality and other issues. If Kineta's post can be taken literally and definitively, then it shouldn't be an issue anymore whether any specific action counts as a violation or not. |
Nov 12, 2013 4:50 AM
#359
Iasuru said: How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. This is one of the moments you shouldn't be saying anything at all. And I think we've already talked enough about changes, there aren't any... It's only about the warnings and clarification on what is rule breaking and what is not. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Nov 12, 2013 10:28 AM
#360
Immahnoob said: Then all that's left is a verdict from the mod team.Iasuru said: How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. This is one of the moments you shouldn't be saying anything at all. And I think we've already talked enough about changes, there aren't any... It's only about the warnings and clarification on what is rule breaking and what is not. |
Nov 12, 2013 10:57 AM
#361
Iasuru said: How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. Since this came up, is calling someone conceited, pretentious, arrogant, bigoted, uniformed, irrelevant etc. an insult? I mean calling someone conceited is an insult, but I don't think you can get banned for that. Also is expressing the fact that you dislike someone an insult? If I said "I don't like you" that isn't strictly speaking an insult is it? Then again strictly speaking it is in the same way "in my opinion you're a conceited asshole, but that's just my opinion" is probably an insult. |
Nov 13, 2013 3:16 AM
#362
InfiniteRufus said: Iasuru said: How is this 18 pages. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. Since this came up, is calling someone conceited, pretentious, arrogant, bigoted, uniformed, irrelevant etc. an insult? I mean calling someone conceited is an insult, but I don't think you can get banned for that. Also is expressing the fact that you dislike someone an insult? If I said "I don't like you" that isn't strictly speaking an insult is it? Then again strictly speaking it is in the same way "in my opinion you're a conceited asshole, but that's just my opinion" is probably an insult. Strictly speaking, calling someone (A MAL user) conceited, pretentious, arrogant, bigoted, uniformed, irrelevant, etc. has no place in any discussion. That should only be your opinions towards anyone other than MAL users - celebrity, figure-heads, fictional characters. ":I don't like you" is an insult but it's not a personal attack. This isn't about insulting words. This is about personal attack. Once you say something directly to a person, it's automatically a personal attack. (Unless if it's a friend, knows your joking, whatever but still these shouldn't be done in any discussion threads in MAL unless if it's a spam discussion such as the chat threads) "That's pretty pathetic" Isn't a personal attack. You are citing an opinion on whatever they said "That's pretty pathetic for a guy like you". Key word here is YOU. This is automatic personal attack. "I don't like you" Not a personal attack even if there's a you. You are not attacking them. You are posing your opinion that you do not like them but it doesn't show any negative connotation. Simply speaking, this is not a specific statement. There could be many reason why you do not like them.. ETC. I don't really care about insulting words. People can find words insulting. Hey someone could find "penis" and insulting word but unless you say, "your opinion is invalid because you have a small penis huehue" then I do not see any problems with insulting words by themselves. |
Nov 13, 2013 5:06 AM
#363
Is this thread still up, honestly long as you're not trying to violently jam your dick in their throat whilst screaming profanity at them, if you're not doing that and they're being shitty Send them this: http://i.imgur.com/foFbor8.jpg |
Nov 13, 2013 8:19 AM
#364
Turnipsia said: You didn't even read my signature did you.Is this thread still up, honestly long as you're not trying to violently jam your dick in their throat whilst screaming profanity at them, if you're not doing that and they're being shitty Send them this: http://i.imgur.com/foFbor8.jpg Maybe contribute to the thread and suggest a change to the policy instead of debating what you're complaining about. |
Nov 13, 2013 1:32 PM
#365
MellowJello said: I'll fix that statement thenTurnipsia said: You didn't even read my signature did you.Is this thread still up, honestly long as you're not trying to violently jam your dick in their throat whilst screaming profanity at them, if you're not doing that and they're being shitty Send them this: http://i.imgur.com/foFbor8.jpg Maybe contribute to the thread and suggest a change to the policy instead of debating what you're complaining about. Unless the user isn't trying to violently jam his dick in someone else's throat whilst screaming profanity at them, a small insult is just a friendly reminder that they aren't top shit and it helps reduce the overall shittiness of the users due to the fact it keeps them in line and know they're being disagreed in an argument because they cannot understand what "I didn't watch it, I didn't like it, it was boring" is. Making the site more better and reaches the target audience of this site (12-15). |
Nov 13, 2013 2:44 PM
#366
Turnipsia said: While I'm still agreeing with what you said, you should really check out the policy (in my sig) and tell us what you think could be changed.MellowJello said: I'll fix that statement thenTurnipsia said: You didn't even read my signature did you.Is this thread still up, honestly long as you're not trying to violently jam your dick in their throat whilst screaming profanity at them, if you're not doing that and they're being shitty Send them this: http://i.imgur.com/foFbor8.jpg Maybe contribute to the thread and suggest a change to the policy instead of debating what you're complaining about. Unless the user isn't trying to violently jam his dick in someone else's throat whilst screaming profanity at them, a small insult is just a friendly reminder that they aren't top shit and it helps reduce the overall shittiness of the users due to the fact it keeps them in line and know they're being disagreed in an argument because they cannot understand what "I didn't watch it, I didn't like it, it was boring" is. Making the site more better and reaches the target audience of this site (12-15). MAL's definition of an insult isn't particularly one of them, sadly. |
Nov 13, 2013 9:19 PM
#367
MellowJello said: Most of what kineta said are correct, a bit of the rules are too extreme since you can be banned for saying "You're a prick/idiot" that just means "You are being annoying/bad/idiotic", there isn't much of an insult there, if they don't like it well they need to learn not everyone in the world agrees/likes them.Turnipsia said: While I'm still agreeing with what you said, you should really check out the policy (in my sig) and tell us what you think could be changed.MellowJello said: I'll fix that statement thenTurnipsia said: You didn't even read my signature did you.Is this thread still up, honestly long as you're not trying to violently jam your dick in their throat whilst screaming profanity at them, if you're not doing that and they're being shitty Send them this: http://i.imgur.com/foFbor8.jpg Maybe contribute to the thread and suggest a change to the policy instead of debating what you're complaining about. Unless the user isn't trying to violently jam his dick in someone else's throat whilst screaming profanity at them, a small insult is just a friendly reminder that they aren't top shit and it helps reduce the overall shittiness of the users due to the fact it keeps them in line and know they're being disagreed in an argument because they cannot understand what "I didn't watch it, I didn't like it, it was boring" is. Making the site more better and reaches the target audience of this site (12-15). MAL's definition of an insult isn't particularly one of them, sadly. But also the MAL users need to learn to shut the fuck up and not be a total cunt as well, there are wrongs on both sides and the majority is MAL users, just remember not stretch your line too thin because I don't want another month of threads going on about mods being shit... The CD was really shit last month |
Nov 14, 2013 12:19 PM
#368
MAL users are such pussies. "ZOMG he called me an asshole, mod please ban him before I cry myself to sleep". If they're sending you death threats and that type of shit, than it's an issue. |
MajinSagaNov 14, 2013 12:24 PM
Dubs>subs. Breaking Bad>Anime Comic books>manga 99% of Anime is Garbage |
Nov 14, 2013 12:33 PM
#369
MajinSaga said: Thanks for your opinion! Now on the topic of opinions, feel free to to contribute and suggest a change to MAL's insult policy.MAL users are such pussies. "ZOMG he called me an asshole, mod please ban him before I cry myself to sleep". If they're sending you death threats and that type of shit, than it's an issue. |
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