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Bayrock said: I don't understand what you're saying about Five at all however. For one if Five were dead there would be absolutely no antagonist capable of stopping Sphinx resulting in an anticlimactic ending of terrorism. And secondly, I have no clue what 'old friends' you think Five will be reunited with seeing as she was born in the facility with Nine and Twelve, and they're the only surviving children.. Five is the one that ruined this show, so what I'm saying is a mere wish she would disappear asap. I'm also pretty sure the anime makers could come up with a better antagonist, cause Five is the worst nightmare in terms of character design. And by 'old friends' ofc I meant Twelve and Nine cause it seems like the only motivation for whatever crap Five is doing is to rejoin with Nine. I'm afraid she's just butthurt about them leaving her alone. Let's see how it goes though. |
| Five looks like she won't last till the end of the series, guessed the drug had some side effects. It looks like Nine is on his own for now unless if Twelve regroup with him later on with Lisa. Based on all the info. we got so far, it looks like Five will be joined by both Nine and Twelve in the afterlife which will leave lisa alone :( |
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| so the test subject kids will die young anyway? according to Aoki... |
| Five collapsed ?! So that's why the old guy said "They won't live long". Maybe those experimental drugs have side effects which cause brain disease. |
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Always-Hungry said: Five collapsed ?! So that's why the old guy said "They won't live long". Maybe those experimental drugs have side effects which cause brain disease.     Here's photos of episode nine, small tidbits. |
| ^+1 First pic might be Dr. Mamiya. Shibazaki looks like a bum -> just shows how much this case took out of him. Five looks like she's pretty worn out (we've never seen before such a resigned look on her) Nine looks either 1) pissed that 12 betrayed him, or 2) unshaken even after being caught by the government. All the pics seem to have a greyish tint, implying that the episode may be tackling gray morality. I'm guessing Five won't be portrayed as a psychotic killer anymore, whereas Nine will seem more like the psychotic one this episode. Also, the wrinkles have always been there, but the wrinkles seem more defined in these pics than ever before. All of them are slowly reaching their limits and it'll be interesting to see if anyone actually breaks down. Two more days!! |
| There's no preview and maybe that's the breaking point, no more can be brought. Surprisingly, I've watched a video describing anime and the producers. MAppa was created after the head director or producer was disgusted by needing to make adaptions and first thing he did was work with Watanabe, the same man he worked with since Cowboy Bebop invention. He openly gave Watanae the budget an said spend it, even if it is lottery/hollywood budget by anime standards. I do hope the last two episodes get far more personal and things become darker. I don't like the grey clouds around Five. This doesn't look good. I'm expecting something along these lines.  I expect bad things, very bad things. |
BRK25 said: There's no preview and maybe that's the breaking point, no more can be brought. Surprisingly, I've watched a video describing anime and the producers. MAppa was created after the head director or producer was disgusted by needing to make adaptions and first thing he did was work with Watanabe, the same man he worked with since Cowboy Bebop invention. He openly gave Watanae the budget an said spend it, even if it is lottery/hollywood budget by anime standards. I do hope the last two episodes get far more personal and things become darker. I don't like the grey clouds around Five. Lol indeed in terms of art and animation ZnT trumps the competition. Now I see why MAPPA has two new original series upcoming in the fall, although they both look subpar as of now. Yeah I really hope the show ends well, and I don't necessarily mean a happy ending. I'm prepared for whatever Watanabe has in store for the ending, so I'm just eagerly waiting for the finale to come. LEEEEEEEEERROOOYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNKINNSSSSS~~~~~!!!!!!! |
pakoko said: BRK25 said: There's no preview and maybe that's the breaking point, no more can be brought. Surprisingly, I've watched a video describing anime and the producers. MAppa was created after the head director or producer was disgusted by needing to make adaptions and first thing he did was work with Watanabe, the same man he worked with since Cowboy Bebop invention. He openly gave Watanae the budget an said spend it, even if it is lottery/hollywood budget by anime standards. I do hope the last two episodes get far more personal and things become darker. I don't like the grey clouds around Five. Lol indeed in terms of art and animation ZnT trumps the competition. Now I see why MAPPA has two new original series upcoming in the fall, although they both look subpar as of now. Yeah I really hope the show ends well, and I don't necessarily mean a happy ending. I'm prepared for whatever Watanabe has in store for the ending, so I'm just eagerly waiting for the finale to come. LEEEEEEEEERROOOYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNKINNSSSSS~~~~~!!!!!!!  yeah, two more days, let's see. |
BRK25Sep 16, 2014 5:49 PM
| WATANABE......WHAT ARE YOU DOING it seems as if with each new project his maturity lessens. This show has played out like a soap opera, especially that laughably over dramatic scene in the ferris wheel. The voice acting is wildly inconsistent, the exposition clunky, and Lisa's character should not exist in the first place. |
BigSimo said: WATANABE......WHAT ARE YOU DOING it seems as if with each new project his maturity lessens. This show has played out like a soap opera, especially that laughably over dramatic scene in the ferris wheel. The voice acting is wildly inconsistent, the exposition clunky, and Lisa's character should not exist in the first place.  Another one. I don't care, just rate it a one if its so trashy or unrealistic with flaws cause you seem hell bent on nitpicking the milliseconds going on of pictures moving together. Rather than take holism where you see how everything makes up the picture, we must deconstruct the things building the scene and blow it the fuck up. |
BRK25 said: BigSimo said: WATANABE......WHAT ARE YOU DOING it seems as if with each new project his maturity lessens. This show has played out like a soap opera, especially that laughably over dramatic scene in the ferris wheel. The voice acting is wildly inconsistent, the exposition clunky, and Lisa's character should not exist in the first place. Another one. I don't care, just rate it a one if its so trashy or unrealistic with flaws cause you seem hell bent on nitpicking the milliseconds going on of pictures moving together. Rather than take holism where you see how everything makes up the picture, we must deconstruct the things building the scene and blow it the fuck up. umm....what? just because i have only said bad things about it does not mean i think it is the worst thing ever - i'd take this over crap like tokyo ghoul and akame ga kill any day. my criticism of the show is fairly standard, and certainly not nitpicking. i said the show has played out like a soap opera (i meant to add: "in the past couple episodes") and then i provided an example of why i feel this way. my other criticisms are generalized, which is the complete opposite of nitpicking. rather than attacking ME for criticizing the show, show some maturity (heh) and respond to my complaints. i feel my issues with the show are valid and i have the right to express my feelings toward this show, or any show, whether positive or negative - wouldn't you agree? |
BigSimo said: rather than attacking ME for criticizing the show, show some maturity (heh) and respond to my complaints. i feel my issues with the show are valid and i have the right to express my feelings toward this show, or any show, whether positive or negative - wouldn't you agree? You're right in that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you shouldn't expect a respectful response, especially from fans, if many of your criticisms are vague and unsupported. When you responded to BRK25, you should have made the "mature" choice and elaborated more upon why you feel as you do, instead of trying to call out BRK25 for being a little mean. And when I say "elaborate," I mean like an essay or something, not a couple of sentences. If you're not willing to put in that much effort to back your opinions, then of course fans won't treat you nicely or respectfully. I'd be more than willing to address your complaints, but I just don't have anything to work with because as of two posts, you haven't raised one valid criticism: 1) Watanabe's getting less mature with each new project? What were his previous projects besides Cowboy Bebop, and why do you say he's getting less and less mature? I'd say ZnT is one of his more serious works after working on a lot of random shows, but I need you to tell me otherwise with evidence of his past projects. 2) "Soap opera" is a silly hyperbole to describe the ferris wheel scene. There was nothing overdone about the scene itself, since the emotions exhibited by the characters were not overly dramatic in any way. I don't know what your definition of "overly dramatic" is, but the conversation that went back and forth between Lisa and 12 was calm, soft, and low-spirited. If the ferris wheel scene as a WHOLE seemed overly dramatic, then you're really criticizing Five as a character because that's just how she does things, if you haven't noticed already with her grandiose airport chess plan. 3) "Voice acting is wildly inconsistent." I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that they switched voice actors every other episode. No, but really, what were you trying to say here? 4) "Exposition clunky." It's not "clunky" as it is problematic to some viewers. The exposition is done so that it tells the viewers everything about the show without necessarily spoon feeding the info to the audience. You don't really see characters talking to themselves about how they, for example, outwitted an opponent or how they did what they did. Viewers have to really pay attention to figure out a lot of the details for this show, so if that's not your strong point then steer clear of ZnT, seriously (not trying to be mean). I can accept the criticism that this style of exposition falls into the trap of not telling enough important information until the end, but I can't accept the criticism that it's "clunky." If you're talking about how the storytelling is "clunky," then I'd also have to disagree because the storytelling has been relatively smooth. The only thing that may make the storytelling "clunky" would be plot holes, and ZnT barely has any besides the plot holes from the airport chess episodes. 5) "Lisa's character should not exist in the first place." This criticism is just unfair when you haven't even finished the series. She exists for a reason, and some people are smart enough to theorize why she is one of the main protagonists, instead of complaining about her existence like you. The exact reason she's existing is not given YET, but she 1) is a realistic representation of a commoner among terrorists, and 2) she serves to humanize 9 and 12, who have been deprived of human interactions since they were children. Although she might be a bit useless to the story as of now since she does nothing but get in trouble, she has given viewers more than enough reason to at least "exist" in this show. |
pakokoSep 16, 2014 11:55 PM
| Damn, defenders of the show become more aggressive with each day. Apparently civilized conversations impossible around here. If guy didn't wrote a friggin' essay on subject = he has no right to write about what frustrated him at all. But if, god forbid, he wrote something less than an article in a scientific magazine he should be treated like crap. You guys are awesome, no, seriously. |
BRK25 said: Think of it as this. The show sucks teehee. Um....what? You'd get dismissed when you mix in with the haters. I love to argue with those that bring up points but when they write a show off in five seconds as a soap opera without elaborating, I WILL WRITE YOU OFF. Criticism is fine, flaming is not if no effort is placed in support. He doesn't need to elaborate anything, it's his subjective opinion on shows quality, if people can't deal with it it's just shows either their own insecurity or age. Now, if he'd wrote something among the lines "I know better!!1 Y'all retarded!!!" I would understand this kind of reaction. |
MajorZero said: Damn, defenders of the show become more aggressive with each day. Apparently civilized conversations impossible around here. If guy didn't wrote a friggin' essay on subject = he has no right to write about what frustrated him at all. But if, god forbid, he wrote something less than an article in a scientific magazine he should be treated like crap. You guys are awesome, no, seriously. He doesn't need to elaborate anything, it's his subjective opinion on shows quality, if people can't deal with it it's just shows either their own insecurity or age. Now, if he'd wrote something among the lines "I know better!!1 Y'all retarded!!!" I would understand this kind of reaction. That's why I said everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Everyone can say whatever they want about the show and I respect them. I have been accepting negative opinions and moving on, but you just happened to have caught me responding to one in awhile. But even if I did respond, 1) Why does any of this matter to you? 2) How did you find any aggressiveness in my retort? Sure I was a bit blunt here and there, but BigSimo wanted someone to address his concerns and I did. If you actually paid attention, you would have realized that I told him that he has a right to say whatever, I just needed a little more than a couple sentences (an essay can be less than a page). So I told him to elaborate on some of the points he made if he wants me to address his complaints seriously. If I myself hadn't responded by elaborating on which points I wanted explored more, would he take me seriously? No. He would just write me off as some blind defender of the show who can't accept negative opinions. And that wouldn't be fair for me because I don't consider myself a butthurt fanboy. Before you start getting offended for others and dismissing me as some guy who can't deal with other people's opinions, why don't you acknowledge that I was at least being "civilized" in my retort? That's another thing, too. How do you define a "civilized conversation?" I'd imagine being as reasonable as possible without letting your own personal feelings get in the way too much is what results in a civilized conversation. You're obviously not going to carry out a civilized conversation with someone who just lets their personal feelings get in the way and lashes out at a show. That's why I tend to avoid those people because I just can't imagine having a civilized conversation with those types of haters. I get it, they can say whatever they want, but don't expect me to waste my time trying to tell them otherwise. I'll just accept that people can have different opinions and move on. You just caught me doing it in awhile and I see that the response I get is from a guy who gets offended for others and calls me out on something I haven't necessarily done. |
dokidokidoing said: The preview for episode 10's out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFS1u0rfGnk&list=UUO8okJvgXmbmyJTkUMWvURg The look on Twelve's face at 0.11-012 reminded me of how creepy he'd seemed in the early episodes. And, seriously... did Nine just surrender himself to the police? Oh wow the animation quality around the 0:07-0:09 mark with the motorcycle is noticeably clunkier than that of the motorcycle scene in episode 4... Oh well =/ |
pakoko said: Before you start getting offended for others and dismissing me as some guy who can't deal with other people's opinions, why don't you acknowledge that I was at least being "civilized" in my retort? I didn't meant you or BRK25 personally, this is not the first time I see someone has been attacked because of negative opinion towards the show, being it valid, elaborated criticism, comparison to something else or just a few sentences without in depth analysis. BRK25 said: I like clarity and cut out reasons or else you seem to be writing it off in such one sentence. Well, I still don't understand one thing, why the guy need to elaborate himself? No no, I understand you want to see the reasons why he doesn't like the show, see the logic behind his thoughts, but, you know, he didn't write a review, he didn't tried to sound like professional critic. Yes, he said soap opera and all, perhaps this is how he see that particular scene and episode overall. For me it was more like a teen oriented drama from CW, in the end of a day it's all depends on your personal taste and experience. |
| You guys wouldn't be so defensive of this apparently quite average show if it wasn't Watanabe, right? Stop treating people who are noticing flaws like they are immature. From what I witness here, those criticizing ZnT have watched a lot more titles than those who are enjoying it. |
| Nine and Twelve being test subjects with some kind of fucked up human experiments was pretty obvious since, like, the third episode, TBH. Awesome episode anyway. |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
why-so-qwerty said: You guys wouldn't be so defensive of this apparently quite average show if it wasn't Watanabe, right? How'd you reach that conclusion? why-so-qwerty said: Stop treating people who are noticing flaws like they are immature. How did I treat them immaturely? Is defending a show immature? Is writing a retort immature, just because it's long and elaborated upon? Did I ever once call them "idiots" or some other immature insult? I'm so confused as to when you saw me treating people immaturely. Don't blindly defend people you don't know and don't blindly assume that I'm the bad guy here when you don't know me either. If you've read my retorts fully, you'd know I acknowledge the flaws of this anime and am not blindly defending the show. why-so-qwerty said: From what I witness here, those criticizing ZnT have watched a lot more titles than those who are enjoying it. What does this have to do with anything? Quantity of anime watched doesn't always mean people develop well-rounded tastes. Everyone has their favorite genre, so don't imply that quantity of anime watched = better opinion on anime. I'd hate for someone who, for example, watched hundreds of shoujo romance anime claiming they know more about anime than me because obviously they're not used to discussing or rating shows like Zankyou no Terror. With most of the shoujo romance fans, especially, all they've been talking about is how cute Lisa and 12 are together... and sort of disregard everything else. You can tell by a whole thread dedicated to "Lisa and Twelve moments." In any case, I don't know what point you were trying to make with people criticizing ZnT having watched more titles than those enjoying it. The point is not only irrelevant, but you're cherry picking your sources to fit your claim, because there are people who criticize the show and have watched less anime than those enjoying it. Why not ask me what I think about the show, before jumping to conclusions and implying that my opinions don't matter as much those of people who happened to have watched more anime than me? This is a discussion. No one is being attacked unless they get offended by a couple of words they see on the computer screen. Stop defending people blindly and stop calling out people, like me, who are only trying to have an intellectual discussion about the show with people who criticize the show. |
MajorZero said: pakoko said: Before you start getting offended for others and dismissing me as some guy who can't deal with other people's opinions, why don't you acknowledge that I was at least being "civilized" in my retort? I didn't meant you or BRK25 personally, this is not the first time I see someone has been attacked because of negative opinion towards the show, being it valid, elaborated criticism, comparison to something else or just a few sentences without in depth analysis. I see. Well I apologize for the misunderstanding. I do think I went too much out of my way to respond to BigSimo, but as a discussion thread, I don't feel guilty at all for trying to have an intellectual discussion with BigSimo. If he doesn't respond, then that's that. I don't have to say more and he doesn't have to say more. |
pakoko said: This is a discussion. No one is being attacked unless they get offended by a couple of words they see on the computer screen. Stop defending people blindly and stop calling out people, like me, who are only trying to have an intellectual discussion about the show with people who criticize the show. Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out, please don't take it too personal. Considering "intellectual" anime - you know, I do not really like it when people contemn "stupid" shounen or shoujo anime titles just because of the genre, meaning they're not "intellectual" enough. Each genre has its own charm. People (including myself) are just so critical about ZnT because this show tries to position itself as an intellectual anime about serious issues. Noone's gonna praise anime just because it's "intellectual". I mentioned number of titles watched only because anime beginners tend to overly praise "intellectual" anime as if that's a good thing by itself. But again, I'm not implying you or BRK25 are necessarily falling into this category. |
why-so-qwerty said: pakoko said: This is a discussion. No one is being attacked unless they get offended by a couple of words they see on the computer screen. Stop defending people blindly and stop calling out people, like me, who are only trying to have an intellectual discussion about the show with people who criticize the show. Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out, please don't take it too personal. Considering "intellectual" anime - you know, I do not really like it when people contemn "stupid" shounen or shoujo anime titles just because of the genre, meaning they're not "intellectual" enough. Each genre has its own charm. People (including myself) are just so critical about ZnT because this show tries to position itself as an intellectual anime about serious issues. Noone's gonna praise anime just because it's "intellectual". I mentioned number of titles watched only because anime beginners tend to overly praise "intellectual" anime as if that's a good thing by itself. But again, I'm not implying you or BRK25 are necessarily falling into this category.  Thank you, I respect you man. I've seen Shounen anime and what not and while they don't go as deep as other shows, there's this suspension of belief that doesn't cater well to adults the same it does for children and that's where I draw the line. However, if you wish to read an intellectual book where it doesn't have flaws cause the plots are planned to avoid holes or a small infrastructure injury, read Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria. Dude, imagined this show's depth on discussion but the exposition is clever and never does it go too insane on the writing. The pace and style never makes it feel like a dissertation. The style makes it calmer than others might have imagined it. If Eiji Mikage spoke with Watanabe on creating puzzles or clever reference and red herrings, this show WOULD be on Death Note level because said writer loves the show and plays Dangan Ronpa, he's a fan of the themes and stories so you may imagine what he'd do with this plot. This show has flaws on how the director wished to pace this show. I understand this and he's trying to keep the high tension, background info to the last seconds and then make us draw the conclusions. Other shows did it more straightforward but the time constraint made him adopt a new style. I do prefe rthis where the audience must think on how what's going on rather than be mesmerized and know everything by the first episode. |
| Meanwhile, back on topic. Dat twelve's face on the preview is very good. Can't wait for it. |
| Your so-called peaceful world makes me bored, so don't blame me if I destroy all of it. - http://worldinverse.smackjeeves.com |
why-so-qwerty said: Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out, please don't take it too personal. Considering "intellectual" anime - you know, I do not really like it when people contemn "stupid" shounen or shoujo anime titles just because of the genre, meaning they're not "intellectual" enough. Each genre has its own charm. People (including myself) are just so critical about ZnT because this show tries to position itself as an intellectual anime about serious issues. Noone's gonna praise anime just because it's "intellectual". I mentioned number of titles watched only because anime beginners tend to overly praise "intellectual" anime as if that's a good thing by itself. But again, I'm not implying you or BRK25 are necessarily falling into this category. I'll apologize as well. I admit that I was a little heated while typing away my response so I apologize if I unintentionally offended you in any way. I do agree that each genre has its own charm and people should try to understand that charm instead of dismissing a certain genre as "stupid." I see where you are coming from in terms of your critical attitude towards the show, and I'm glad you took the time to explain. I only mentioned the shoujo romance fans because most of them seemed too focused on Lisa and 12, when there's so much more to the show. I, for one, grew up watching shoujo and shounen anime so I love them. I just choose not to watch them as much as I do other genres, especially shoujo. Ahh I see. Don't worry, I'm not the type to overpraise a show unless it's a true masterpiece. You won't see me giving this show a 10, I promise :) |
WorldInverse said: Meanwhile, back on topic. Dat twelve's face on the preview is very good. Can't wait for it. Using my limited Japanese comprehension skills, I believe Five said something like "I won't let anyone else have Nine." Yandere Five incoming. |
| this episode had me so f*cked up |
pakoko said: WorldInverse said: Meanwhile, back on topic. Dat twelve's face on the preview is very good. Can't wait for it. Using my limited Japanese comprehension skills, I believe Five said something like "I won't let anyone else have Nine." Yandere Five incoming. And by the preview Twelve seems so SO BUT SO emotionally broken unable to move in shock. Its his reaction for betraying Nine, he needs a hug. :( |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
pakoko said: BigSimo said: rather than attacking ME for criticizing the show, show some maturity (heh) and respond to my complaints. i feel my issues with the show are valid and i have the right to express my feelings toward this show, or any show, whether positive or negative - wouldn't you agree? You're right in that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you shouldn't expect a respectful response, especially from fans, if many of your criticisms are vague and unsupported. When you responded to BRK25, you should have made the "mature" choice and elaborated more upon why you feel as you do, instead of trying to call out BRK25 for being a little mean. And when I say "elaborate," I mean like an essay or something, not a couple of sentences. If you're not willing to put in that much effort to back your opinions, then of course fans won't treat you nicely or respectfully. Sorry for the delayed reply. The point I was making was that BRK dismissed my statements from the beginning, decided instead to flare up without pushing me to explain myself. My followup post was simply a response to that. Now, I will admit my original post could come across as harsh and I can understand someone responding angrily. I certainly don't like similarly blunt posts regarding my fave anime. I did, however, intend no malice with my post. I was voicing my dot-pointed thoughts at no one in particular, the same thing people do when they quickly want to express why they liked an episode without going in-depth. Naturally if someone asked me simply to elaborate, I would do so. I'd be more than willing to address your complaints, but I just don't have anything to work with because as of two posts, you haven't raised one valid criticism: 1) Watanabe's getting less mature with each new project? What were his previous projects besides Cowboy Bebop, and why do you say he's getting less and less mature? I'd say ZnT is one of his more serious works after working on a lot of random shows, but I need you to tell me otherwise with evidence of his past projects. oh i completely agree that ZnT is his most serious work to date. But serious does not = mature. The content of ZnT is as serious as they come, but it is not presented in a way that is mature and thoughtful, when compared with Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, or even Kids on the Slope. I guess the main reason I feel this way is the tone and style. This show takes itself very seriously, and quite a few characters have dramatic unpleasant back stories, ie. tested on with drugs from a young age, abused by alcoholic mother, doomed to do the bidding of Americans all the while suffering weird headaches and evil grins (ok this one is slightly sarcastic). The show is basically drowning in bleakness. The tone is gritty as hell (as is the visual palette, funnily enough), and yet the darker the content AND tone, the easier it is for a story to get in over its head. I feel that has happened with this show. with the introduction of Five the show became a battle of wits, and here is where it lost a lot of credibility, for me at least. Rather than focusing on the human drama element, it became about the back and forth dialogue between the three major 'teams'. It revealed itself as trying to appear intelligent in terms of plotting, but it just became more and more ridiculous and spectacle-focused. Any sense of realism or depth was lost. Certainly the plot had momentum, and it still does. But it's hollow and there's little to grab on emotionally. 2) "Soap opera" is a silly hyperbole to describe the ferris wheel scene. There was nothing overdone about the scene itself, since the emotions exhibited by the characters were not overly dramatic in any way. I don't know what your definition of "overly dramatic" is, but the conversation that went back and forth between Lisa and 12 was calm, soft, and low-spirited. If the ferris wheel scene as a WHOLE seemed overly dramatic, then you're really criticizing Five as a character because that's just how she does things, if you haven't noticed already with her grandiose airport chess plan. No I'm describing the turn of events and character reactions as soap opera-ish. The ferris wheel scene was an example I used. it was hardly calm, soft, low-spirited. Lisa starts crying, a close-up on her face shows the tears. the music is indicating that this is a heart-wrenching scene. she apologizes, lowers her head. then Touji grabs her face in his hands, lifts her head up, and in true soap opera fashion says "you don't have to apologize anymore". lots of close-ups of eyes, faux-emotional voice acting. Touji says some more shit about 'if i hadn't done this and that' and then we have flash backs of the time they spent together (from like two episodes ago), and the classic hair-covering-the-eyes-when-a-character-says-something-emotional cliche (if you don't know what I mean by this, don't worry - you get the idea anyway). You may feel as though I'm merely describing what happened in this scene, and that anyone can cherry-pick a scene from anything and describe it in this way to make it sound crappy. But the problem I have with this scene stems from the show not having earned it. Touji and Lisa barely know each other. She has an abusive mother and is a social outcast, sure, but this was only briefly touched on. We know hardly enough about her in order to make sense of her as a person. She's erratic and, well, stupid. She's also a klutz which for some reason is played for comic effect throughout the show. Then, her relationship with Touji is again rushed over. We can tell that he's interested in her, but the reasons remain unclear other than because he pities her. We see hardly enough interaction between the two, besides the typical date-ish scenes which I mentioned above. All of Lisa's 'development', we find out, is just to setup her use as a plot device. A chess piece in the game being played between the psychotic white-hair and the two boys. The ferris wheel scene is the culmination of this, and it makes no sense for a scene of this emotional magnitude to even exist at this point. Touji knows exactly what to say, as if the two of them are somehow really close, as if he's an adult and not some teenage kid with a fucked up past and no understanding of proper social interaction. His words are empty and vague, typical of what I would expect from soap operas. The setup of this ferris wheel kidnapping ploy wasn't my main issue, however the setup does go against the gritty realism tone previously established by the show because it's superfluous and adheres to the focus on spectacle rather than depth. 3) "Voice acting is wildly inconsistent." I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that they switched voice actors every other episode. No, but really, what were you trying to say here? Eh, I guess I just find the acting to be inconsistent between characters. This is probably just nitpicking, but I find the performances for Lisa and Touji to be at odds with the performance of Shibazaki, in particular. He is serious, but human. Suited to a show filled with grit and grime. When concerned or in haste his voice does not rise into ultra dramatic territory - for Lisa and Touji, their voices are always quavery, ready to get dramatic at a moments notice. It's like they're acting for two different types of show - and I guess this relates back to the confused tone I discussed above. The realistic approach versus the superfluous one. Teen drama versus mature cop show. They just don't blend well in this particular case, I suppose. Clearly no one else seems particularly bothered by this though, but it's been nagging at me for a couple eps so I thought I'd bring it up. Now, the OTHER voice acting issue is far more obvious. Five's voice actor does a great job at portraying what is presently a two dimensional villain...when speaking in Japanese. Her English is, obviously, atrocious. This is not a voice acting issue. This is a directorial issue. The occasional poor English is fine, whatever. But relying on English heavily makes quite a large number of scenes comical when they are meant to be deadly serious. Perhaps Watanabe and other members of the production team don't realize how bad it is, but I find that hard to believe. 4) "Exposition clunky." It's not "clunky" as it is problematic to some viewers. The exposition is done so that it tells the viewers everything about the show without necessarily spoon feeding the info to the audience. You don't really see characters talking to themselves about how they, for example, outwitted an opponent or how they did what they did. Viewers have to really pay attention to figure out a lot of the details for this show, so if that's not your strong point then steer clear of ZnT, seriously (not trying to be mean). I can accept the criticism that this style of exposition falls into the trap of not telling enough important information until the end, but I can't accept the criticism that it's "clunky." If you're talking about how the storytelling is "clunky," then I'd also have to disagree because the storytelling has been relatively smooth. The only thing that may make the storytelling "clunky" would be plot holes, and ZnT barely has any besides the plot holes from the airport chess episodes. What i'm referring to here is in this episode where shibazaki confronts the old dude and the old dude spills his guts on the drugging-five-year-olds project. This whole scene is an info dump. A big wad of exposition. Yeah, it's not nearly as bad as many many other anime (ie. characters talking to 'themselves' about what they're doing and why), but the fact that we have to witness one character telling us a bunch of information is a sign that the plotting could use some work. The show has tried to keep itself shrouded in mystery from the beginning but all this means is that further down the track it needs to inform us of everything, and more than likely the way this is revealed to us is going to be in a dull and unimaginative way. Initially, seeing random acts of terrorism but not knowing why, and being introduced to a psychotic white haired bitch and knowing little about her - these are intriguing. But striking a balance between releasing information and withholding it has a huge impact on the plot and in this case too much info has been withheld from the very beginning and the excitement of the mystery has fizzled out. 5) "Lisa's character should not exist in the first place." This criticism is just unfair when you haven't even finished the series. She exists for a reason, and some people are smart enough to theorize why she is one of the main protagonists, instead of complaining about her existence like you. The exact reason she's existing is not given YET, but she 1) is a realistic representation of a commoner among terrorists, and 2) she serves to humanize 9 and 12, who have been deprived of human interactions since they were children. Although she might be a bit useless to the story as of now since she does nothing but get in trouble, she has given viewers more than enough reason to at least "exist" in this show. I've elaborated on why I feel Lisa should not be in the show above. She herself is in no way a commoner. She's had a pretty shit life like everyone else and is a social outcast, and I feel like she exhausted her purpose as a realistic commoner among terrorists when she decided to effectively join them, and be a klutz. I will reserve final judgement til the show finishes, but at this point she just comes across as a plot device and supremely annoying and uninteresting. Watanabe is a good director but only when certain conditions are met, it seems. He understands pacing and momentum, as well as striking visuals. But this style...this focus on teenagers and their emotions and issues....it just doesn't work for him. I don't know, maybe it's not his fault at all. But Bebop and Champloo are simply leagues beyond this and Kids on the Slope (though that one wasn't bad). |
BigSimo said: The point I was making was that BRK dismissed my statements from the beginning, decided instead to flare up without pushing me to explain myself. My followup post was simply a response to that. Now, I will admit my original post could come across as harsh and I can understand someone responding angrily. I certainly don't like similarly blunt posts regarding my fave anime. I did, however, intend no malice with my post. I was voicing my dot-pointed thoughts at no one in particular, the same thing people do when they quickly want to express why they liked an episode without going in-depth. Naturally if someone asked me simply to elaborate, I would do so. Thank you for being so respectful and thorough in your response. I realize that no one has the obligation to always elaborate on his/her criticisms of the show unless asked upon, so I apologize if I sounded a little rude in my original response to your comments towards BRK25. BigSimo said: oh i completely agree that ZnT is his most serious work to date. But serious does not = mature. The content of ZnT is as serious as they come, but it is not presented in a way that is mature and thoughtful, when compared with Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, or even Kids on the Slope. I guess the main reason I feel this way is the tone and style. This show takes itself very seriously, and quite a few characters have dramatic unpleasant back stories, ie. tested on with drugs from a young age, abused by alcoholic mother, doomed to do the bidding of Americans all the while suffering weird headaches and evil grins (ok this one is slightly sarcastic). The show is basically drowning in bleakness. The tone is gritty as hell (as is the visual palette, funnily enough), and yet the darker the content AND tone, the easier it is for a story to get in over its head. I feel that has happened with this show. with the introduction of Five the show became a battle of wits, and here is where it lost a lot of credibility, for me at least. Rather than focusing on the human drama element, it became about the back and forth dialogue between the three major 'teams'. It revealed itself as trying to appear intelligent in terms of plotting, but it just became more and more ridiculous and spectacle-focused. Any sense of realism or depth was lost. Certainly the plot had momentum, and it still does. But it's hollow and there's little to grab on emotionally. I see your point. With the introduction of Five, I do admit there was this sense of the anime turning into an action thriller more than a dark social commentary about the deterioration of Japanese government and society. They should have maintained the gritty tone and style throughout the series, but Watanabe and the writers just did a poor job of handling the show ever since Five’s introduction. If they focused less on trying to be a spectacle, we could have had a really good, dark human drama, in which case we would have gotten a show better focused on the characters than the story. Watanabe’s focus on the spectacle caused him to forget the characters and thus create scenes in which it’s difficult for viewers to relate to. After you’ve spelled it out for me, I see where you’re coming from. I too have complaints about the lack of focus on the characters, and I agree with how you feel about the show, in terms of tone and style. BigSimo said: No I'm describing the turn of events and character reactions as soap opera-ish. The ferris wheel scene was an example I used. it was hardly calm, soft, low-spirited. Lisa starts crying, a close-up on her face shows the tears. the music is indicating that this is a heart-wrenching scene. she apologizes, lowers her head. then Touji grabs her face in his hands, lifts her head up, and in true soap opera fashion says "you don't have to apologize anymore". lots of close-ups of eyes, faux-emotional voice acting. Touji says some more shit about 'if i hadn't done this and that' and then we have flash backs of the time they spent together (from like two episodes ago), and the classic hair-covering-the-eyes-when-a-character-says-something-emotional cliche (if you don't know what I mean by this, don't worry - you get the idea anyway). You may feel as though I'm merely describing what happened in this scene, and that anyone can cherry-pick a scene from anything and describe it in this way to make it sound crappy. But the problem I have with this scene stems from the show not having earned it. Touji and Lisa barely know each other. She has an abusive mother and is a social outcast, sure, but this was only briefly touched on. We know hardly enough about her in order to make sense of her as a person. She's erratic and, well, stupid. She's also a klutz which for some reason is played for comic effect throughout the show. Then, her relationship with Touji is again rushed over. We can tell that he's interested in her, but the reasons remain unclear other than because he pities her. We see hardly enough interaction between the two, besides the typical date-ish scenes which I mentioned above. All of Lisa's 'development', we find out, is just to setup her use as a plot device. A chess piece in the game being played between the psychotic white-hair and the two boys. The ferris wheel scene is the culmination of this, and it makes no sense for a scene of this emotional magnitude to even exist at this point. Touji knows exactly what to say, as if the two of them are somehow really close, as if he's an adult and not some teenage kid with a fucked up past and no understanding of proper social interaction. His words are empty and vague, typical of what I would expect from soap operas. Yeah I get the idea :P I said the conversation was “calm, soft, and low-spirited” because the whole situation seemed very hopeless for the two. I felt like they were both pretty much resigned to the worst-case scenario and were pretty much saying their last words before they died. In that sense, I think a little drama is understandable, since I would probably confess my love to someone as well before I might possibly die. Right, I can see where you’re coming from. The journey they had together was unnaturally short, and yet the show had the audacity to show all the flashbacks of them together, to try and make it feel like there’s a deeper connection than what’s already been portrayed between Lisa and Twelve. And the lack of background information on the MAIN characters just makes the whole scene worse. I do want to suggest, however, that I see Twelve’s love towards Lisa as totally reasonable considering his circumstances. We don’t know if Lisa is interested in the same way towards Twelve, but for Twelve, Lisa is a newfound motivation for Twelve to live. Let me explain. As you know, Twelve has been orphaned and drugged at a young age to eventually grow up into a human weapon. However, once the Athena plan failed, Twelve basically had nothing to live for. Even if he followed Nine along with his plan, Twelve was only following Nine because he was his friend. BRK25 points this out somewhere, but basically Twelve is always the one asking Nine about what to do, as if he’s not on par with Nine’s goals. Twelve, in other words, is living because he has someone to spend his life with, and would do anything to make his friends happy. For Twelve, his motivation to live comes from “friends” and that’s why he’s been so attached to Nine. However, Twelve realized that after he’s done helping Nine, Nine will most likely end his life since he has nothing else to live for. Noticing the bleak future ahead, Twelve was always looking for another motivation to live in life, or basically another friend. And that friend was Lisa. I may be romanticizing all this a bit too much, but in short, Twelve found a new motivation in life and the answer was Lisa. Although the show did a really shitty job portraying this special love that Twelve has for Lisa, I do think Twelve is reasonable in going head over heels for Lisa. Strictly from what the show tells us, yeah, I will admit that the love relationship seems unreasonable, but at least for Twelve I think it’s his way of fighting for what’s most precious to him at the moment. It’s just like Five treasuring Nine’s existence since her only reason to live was beating Nine. BigSimo said: Eh, I guess I just find the acting to be inconsistent between characters. This is probably just nitpicking, but I find the performances for Lisa and Touji to be at odds with the performance of Shibazaki, in particular. He is serious, but human. Suited to a show filled with grit and grime. When concerned or in haste his voice does not rise into ultra dramatic territory - for Lisa and Touji, their voices are always quavery, ready to get dramatic at a moments notice. It's like they're acting for two different types of show - and I guess this relates back to the confused tone I discussed above. The realistic approach versus the superfluous one. Teen drama versus mature cop show. They just don't blend well in this particular case, I suppose. Clearly no one else seems particularly bothered by this though, but it's been nagging at me for a couple eps so I thought I'd bring it up. Now, the OTHER voice acting issue is far more obvious. Five's voice actor does a great job at portraying what is presently a two dimensional villain...when speaking in Japanese. Her English is, obviously, atrocious. This is not a voice acting issue. This is a directorial issue. The occasional poor English is fine, whatever. But relying on English heavily makes quite a large number of scenes comical when they are meant to be deadly serious. Perhaps Watanabe and other members of the production team don't realize how bad it is, but I find that hard to believe. Well, if you’re nitpicking I won’t say too much. But I will agree to the fact that there is a teen drama going on one side of the show, while a serious crime drama on the other. Hence, there’s this clash of voice acting like you pointed out. But also, it didn’t bother me too much so I won’t say much on the matter. As for the English, yeah I’m still wondering why they couldn’t hire someone cheaply to say all the English lines. I’m the type of guy who usually doesn’t mind imperfect English, but I can see that it may bother some people from immersing themselves in the show. BigSimo said: What i'm referring to here is in this episode where shibazaki confronts the old dude and the old dude spills his guts on the drugging-five-year-olds project. This whole scene is an info dump. A big wad of exposition. Yeah, it's not nearly as bad as many many other anime (ie. characters talking to 'themselves' about what they're doing and why), but the fact that we have to witness one character telling us a bunch of information is a sign that the plotting could use some work. The show has tried to keep itself shrouded in mystery from the beginning but all this means is that further down the track it needs to inform us of everything, and more than likely the way this is revealed to us is going to be in a dull and unimaginative way. Initially, seeing random acts of terrorism but not knowing why, and being introduced to a psychotic white haired bitch and knowing little about her - these are intriguing. But striking a balance between releasing information and withholding it has a huge impact on the plot and in this case too much info has been withheld from the very beginning and the excitement of the mystery has fizzled out. Yeah I’m really frustrated, as of Episode 10, of the exposition. I love the original style of exposition, in which I had to figure everything out myself instead of the show answering everything for me. But in episode 9 and 10, you basically have two info dump scenes that basically could have been compressed into one. It’s frustrating that they put themselves in a situation in which they had to resort to info dumps towards the end. It's like the show started with one style of exposition, then they change to another towards the end because they have no other way of delivering the information… =/ This goes back to the first point basically, but if the show hadn’t focused so much on the spectacle, it could have delivered information more comfortably and naturally. BigSimo said: I've elaborated on why I feel Lisa should not be in the show above. She herself is in no way a commoner. She's had a pretty shit life like everyone else and is a social outcast, and I feel like she exhausted her purpose as a realistic commoner among terrorists when she decided to effectively join them, and be a klutz. I will reserve final judgement til the show finishes, but at this point she just comes across as a plot device and supremely annoying and uninteresting. As of episode 10, she still has yet to redeem herself, but I’ll also hold my opinions until the end. As of now, the only relevance I can find of her, lies in her similar background to the rest of the characters. I’ll post what I did in the episode 10 discussion thread, but basically I just go into why I think all the characters are more or less connected, and thus imply Lisa’s relevance. |
| Not sure why people still hate Lisa even after she was willing to die just so 12 could get away. Although its partially her being depressed she feels bad for being in the way. Sure it would have worked fine for 12 to leave and Lisa blows up which would show concequences of their actions but that would mean an innocent civilian being killed. That would make them just terrorists and nothing more if they didnt care about peoples lives. Its like you people want ISIS: the Anime. The whole plot was likely nines to begin with and twelve just an accomplice going along with it for agreeing with the premise. Nine is more obsessive over completing the goal but what is their goal? Just to expose project Athena and avenge? If it is they did a piss poor job at that from the start. Even if they blew up every corporate building or gov building of those involved in project Athena it would do nothing, they would build again. |
| Man, what a great episode. First we get some more insight into the Athena project, and then there's that super intense bomb disarming scene. I have to admit, the show had been slowing down a bit for the past few episodes, but it seems like things are picking back up now for the conclusion. Super interested to see how this all plays out in the end. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| Anyone know the song playing in the bomb disarming scene? |
 |
| The music and the atmosphere was excellent during the Ferris Wheel scene, really created some great tension. I really expected Lisa and Twelve to die. So then it is confirmed Nine/Twelve/Five doesn't have much time to live..? :/ |
AozureSep 20, 2014 12:00 PM
Renzokuken said: Anyone know the song playing in the bomb disarming scene? Track 2 from the OST, entitled "von" feat. Arnor Dan. Yoko Kanno is seriously a master composer. |
| So no love for Nine? Twelve gave in to his lust and betrayed Nine and got himself a bitch and now Nine is running for his life. Fuck you, Twelve, you horny teenage prick.I hope Lisa dies with you.. there's a lot of pussies in the world and you betrayed Nine for that useless annoying bitch. smfh. I knew it! I fucking knew it! Annoying male leads get the bitches and the best character gets nothing. Just like fucking Zetsuen no Tempest. oh hey they're both ZnT. fucking shit. |
 |
| :o this episode, can't believe 12 betrayed 9 |
PrimeX said: So no love for Nine? Twelve gave in to his lust and betrayed Nine and got himself a bitch and now Nine is running for his life. Fuck you, Twelve, you horny teenage prick.I hope Lisa dies with you.. there's a lot of pussies in the world and you betrayed Nine for that useless annoying bitch. smfh. I knew it! I fucking knew it! Annoying male leads get the bitches and the best character gets nothing. Just like fucking Zetsuen no Tempest. oh hey they're both ZnT. fucking shit.  Your comments as you progress trough a trashy series,hopping it would change for the better but it actually gets worse, never fail to amuse me. |
| That ferris wheel scene...wow |
traed said: I hate what the writer is doing with her character, really, is that all her role in the show is?Not sure why people still hate Lisa even after she was willing to die just so 12 could get away. I also hate Five for assuming their relationship is nothing but lover, there is more to a man and a woman than just be romantically linked, otherwise everyone would've married their imouto. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| Fantastic episode! The OST in this show is so Perfect, wish i could buy it. That bomb disarming scene with Lisa development...Beautiful, some revelations, and i bet Five faiting has smth to do with that drug. Can't believe Twelve sold Nine out though, And Nine is fucked, this is so AOTY |
FragOutFire said: Why am I a Berserk fan? All I ever experience is pain. We are in the eclipse and Miura has sacrificed us |
| Twelve and Lisa have the best scenes. Beautiful. The music and visuals were brilliant. The high standard set up by the first few eps is back for (hopefully) a good ending. |
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