Suisei no Gargantia Episode 10 Discussion

Offline

Nov 2011

457

wenchance said:
It's all about ethics and what each individual views as moral. I can see both sides of this argument. Both in the show, and on the forums.

But essentially, this science run rampant. (And I'm lumping technology into that group)

The evolvers were essentially created through science without humanistic direction. If proper ethics and law were applied to such scientific development, the evolvers would exist. That's why scientists built that facility so "science could be free".

After that, it became a battle of ideology but on a much larger scale.
Diplomacy failed somewhere down the road and the ideological war became a real war.

I'm not saying science is bad. The scientific revolution was probably one of the greatest things to happen to mankind, but without rule of law and an understanding of what is right and wrong, science can get nasty and lead to disturbing results.

Yes, it is a conflict of ethics and laws. There are good and bad laws. Sometimes you have to violate the bad ones, those that hold back progress. And it's amazing how this conflict is already there, in our reality. I'm quite happy to see 30% of people supporting the Evolvers' way. I didn't expect that much support. Here's an interesting article:

Transhumanism

Transhumanism (abbreviated as H+ or h+) is an international cultural and intellectual movement with an eventual goal at fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities.[1] Transhumanist thinkers study the potential benefits and dangers of emerging technologies that could overcome fundamental human limitations, as well as study the ethical matters involved in developing and using such technologies. They predict that human beings may eventually be able to transform themselves into beings with such greatly expanded abilities as to merit the label "posthuman".[1]

GET DROPBOX HERE!
Bonus space for you and me with this link! Now 500MB per referral, up to 16GB from referrals alone.

Jun 11, 2013 5:26 AM

#263

StopDropAndBowl

Offline

Mar 2012

1575

I have a feeling that Kugel has found something similar to what Ledo did in episode 9 and has come to the same (flawed) conclusion that Chamber has. I hope Ledo comes to the different conclusion.

Amazing episode. Pinion is digging his own grave. I feel assured now that he will be the next to die.

Let's go bowling.

Jun 11, 2013 5:37 AM

#264

StopDropAndBowl

Offline

Mar 2012

1575

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

Let's go bowling.

Jun 11, 2013 5:45 AM

#265

MorningGlory

Offline

Jun 2008

4443

To think that he killed those pirate without hesitation, it was strange for him to felt emotional to this human like creature.
oh wait, pirate have no soul xD

Evolution VS technology. Sorry, my brain is no really good, both look the same to me. I don't understand why the fight must continue.

MorningGloryJun 11, 2013 5:50 AM

Jun 11, 2013 6:25 AM

#266

Mr_alucard1985

Offline

Jun 2013

7

The funny thing would be that they (the cult) dont worship kugel, but his machine caliber which functions in its own will (since its ai is very advanced if it was convinced trying to return to the alliance is futile, decided to live in its own accordance), because the wormhole kugel went in transferred him in the farrer past than Ledo, and kugel is long dead, and a religion was made for it in the past centuries (not that religion needs centuries to form, give men some harsh apocalyptic circumstances and minutes are enough) and now an empty tin can is worshipped like a god. (an atheist philosophical implication, about men worshipping empty vessels) (or emphasizing the concept of man worshipping machine).
or that kugel is alive but decided (and somehow convinced his machine calliber) that living like a stray man is better than a soldier with no personal will, especially there, where he is treated like a god (and a messiah probably (cyberjesus philosophy implication)).

Mr_alucard1985Jun 11, 2013 6:45 AM

Jun 11, 2013 8:08 AM

#267

JafriZin

Offline

May 2012

3087

chikuita0621 said:

Pinion became crazy and Ledo is likely unstable.
That ending. Does that mean Commander Kugel drifted on Earth?
Hideauze as evolved life form. >__<

Urobutcher's Plot twist! Urobutcher's plot twist everywhere!

Jun 11, 2013 8:20 AM

#268

Offline

Nov 2011

457

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

Give me an example where religion promoted progress and I'll give you two for how it hindered it. Religion was only useful in prehistoric societies where it increased group cohesion. Now it's just a burden, a source of innumerable conflicts.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"
-- Steven Weinberg

GET DROPBOX HERE!
Bonus space for you and me with this link! Now 500MB per referral, up to 16GB from referrals alone.

Jun 11, 2013 8:35 AM

#269

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

AlexGK said:
LoL, will Chamber AI and the Kugel's mech AI even allow them to fight? They have already indentified eachother as allied craft, and we know Ledo does not have full control over his mech.

Humm, I just had a very interesting thought.

Suppose that Kugel's mech came to a different conclusion from Chamber, that the Evolutioner's were correct and the CU was wrong. In order to have a true AI, there has to be I, so saying that they would automatically come to the same conclusion would be wrong. If there was an additional piece of information or some other combination of data, I can easily see the AI coming to the opposite conclusion.

If that were the case, the battle over the fate of humanity will be determined by which Mech wins. Imagine the irony that humanity has deferred this decision to the machines it created. Or maybe Kugel decided that the evolution side is correct and he and his mech have both decided to convert.

With Pinon representing what is wrong with humans as we are, and Krugel showing what is wrong with humans as they became (in both forms), it will be left to Ledo to decide what humans SHOULD become.

Jun 11, 2013 8:48 AM

#270

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

linchpin said:
Give me an example where religion promoted progress and I'll give you two for how it hindered it. Religion was only useful in prehistoric societies where it increased group cohesion. Now it's just a burden, a source of innumerable conflicts.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"
-- Steven Weinberg

If it wasn't for Irish monestaries, most of western civilization would have been destroyed by the various germanic/viking invasions. Roger Bacon, Franciscan, invented the scientific method, many of the pioneering astronomers were good Church members.

But "progress" is more than technology, there is also "moral" progress: infant and child exposure was eliminated by Judaism and Christianity, the Church was the only thing that managed to keep the secular powers in check during most of European history, Europe went genocidal when the church effectively lost the ability to temper blatant nationalism, slavery would not have been abolished were it not for fanatical Christians who opposed it. Far from creating "witch trials", the Catholic Church was more responsible for ending it than promoting them. Witch burnings, as has been shown in Africa and PNG or even in the US where they take different forms, are natural human reactions which need to be suppressed, not a creation. The idea that many witches were burnt during the "dark ages" is a myth (Monty Python aside).

Religion has served as a great regulator on secular overreach. Where religion has been weak, humanity has generally NOT prospered because the secular government has nothing to limit their abuses and sees no reason why they shouldn't use that power.

Jun 11, 2013 8:55 AM

#271

Offline

Dec 2009

107

linchpin said:
Give me an example where religion promoted progress and I'll give you two for how it hindered it. Religion was only useful in prehistoric societies where it increased group cohesion. Now it's just a burden, a source of innumerable conflicts.

Did you even read my reply? I said I was referring to spirituality. The ability for humans to emotionally bond with the image of a superior being or the ability to feel the supernatural. And before you get carried away, look at the context in which I was referring to this. What do religious affairs in modern history have to do with the biological evolution of humans alongside other animals?

And those who are desperately proclaiming that the current Hideauze are sentient and that the CU is the genocidal epitome of evil: routing out nonexistent rotten agendas and expressing false sympathy seems to make you people feel smart. It would help if some of you stopped masturbating your egos. I know you're doing it.

Again, the CU fascism, militarism, and selective breeding that we currently see are merely byproducts of a death match for which the Evolvers hold primary responsibility.

tealcactusJun 11, 2013 9:42 AM

Jun 11, 2013 9:02 AM

#272

Nickienator

Offline

Jul 2008

422

What's the sudden problem with killing humans? Didn't Ledo kill the pirates at the start of the series?

And if Kugel was on earth all this time, wouldn't Chamber have been able to sense and locate him?

Jun 11, 2013 9:09 AM

#273

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

The truth is ignorance?

I'd say believing in a dude sitting on a cloud controlling your life is ignorance, but hey, who's judging.

Talking about that, the very BELIEF in higher power limits us.

Need I to recite a whole freaking theory of economics and how IT WAS STALLED for FEW HUNDRED YEARS in western world because of religion? Or how religion is the roots of anti-antisemitism? How about people who burned for simply saying that earth is not the center of the universe?

Religion is cancer, it burns civilizations, stalls advancement and brainwashes children. And if we go into more cynnical and less emotion-based view, any religion is a corporation with head of religion as CEO - and the main focus of a corporation is profit. However unlike normal corporations who rely on technology(and even those stall technological advancement), religions are the corporation solely based on belief as commodity essentially selling nothing for something(mostly money). Its not at the degree it was during the middle ages(when they literally allowed you to pay for your sins with gold), but its still an archaic thing based solely on our brain's inability to grasp more advanced concepts of our pointless existence. .

Nickienator said:
What's the sudden problem with killing humans? Didn't Ledo kill the pirates at the start of the series?

You must have missed, like, 4?5? 6? episodes in between.

linchpin said:

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

Give me an example where religion promoted progress and I'll give you two for how it hindered it. Religion was only useful in prehistoric societies where it increased group cohesion. Now it's just a burden, a source of innumerable conflicts.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"
-- Steven Weinberg

Well the only case of religion being beneficial is churches being the root of modern universities and education systems. Of course even if so, religion ultimately turned against what they created and began burning scientific minds for heresy.

AhenshihaelJun 11, 2013 9:16 AM

Jun 11, 2013 9:17 AM

#274

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

Nickienator said:
What's the sudden problem with killing humans? Didn't Ledo kill the pirates at the start of the series?

And if Kugel was on earth all this time, wouldn't Chamber have been able to sense and locate him?

Hush, hush. We aren't looking for consistency here. Once you start thinking that way you will be wondering how exactly two different people going on two different trajectories just happened to arrive at the same point in space and time which just happened to be the one inhabitable planet in the universe.
So, turn that logic circuit off or you are just asking for a world of hurt!

I have an answer for that though. The Alliance Gate can only bridge any one point in space to another, the initial gate they formed took them from Earth to where the Hidauze are now. When the Hideauze followed, the Alliance was forced to gate again to an unknown third location, where they slowly rebuilt their forces. The reason they are attacking the Hideauze is that they want to return to Earth, but they have to go through the Hideauze to do so. When the Alliance was disengaging the Gate, for a brief moment the initial gateway to earth was open and that was why both Ledo and Kugel ended up there.

How's that?

Jun 11, 2013 9:22 AM

#275

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Fai said:

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

The truth is ignorance?

I'd say believing in a dude sitting on a cloud controlling your life is ignorance, but hey, who's judging.

Talking about that, the very BELIEF in higher power limits us.

Need I to recite a whole freaking theory of economics and how IT WAS STALLED for FEW HUNDRED YEARS in western world because of religion? Or how religion is the roots of anti-antisemitism? How about people who burned for simply saying that earth is not the center of the universe?

Religion is cancer, it burns civilizations, stalls advancement and brainwashes children.

You have clearly never experienced religion or any form of spirituality for yourself. Either because you live a sheltered life, or you were brought up by theophobic parents. Fear and denouncement of the unknown. Simple.

Takuan_Soho said:
I have an answer for that though. The Alliance Gate can only bridge any one point in space to another, the initial gate they formed took them from Earth to where the Hidauze are now. When the Hideauze followed, the Alliance was forced to gate again to an unknown third location, where they slowly rebuilt their forces. The reason they are attacking the Hideauze is that they want to return to Earth, but they have to go through the Hideauze to do so. When the Alliance was disengaging the Gate, for a brief moment the initial gateway to earth was open and that was why both Ledo and Kugel ended up there.

How's that?

Holy mother of potatoes I think you're right! At least about the unknown third location. We know that they used a wormhole to portal to the Hideauze's nest, which is presumably where they were first engaged by the Hideauze. After escaping and building up forces they returned for a second attack, but failed spectacularly as we saw.

This raises some questions however as to why they are returning to the nest. How far apart are the second and third locations? Short enough that Hideauze from the nest can reach them but in smaller numbers? If so, why was the distance made so short? Are there any human settlements left to salvage from the second location? Alternatively, how fast are the Hideauze able to travel? Judging by the behavior of the whalesquid, most stay near the nest, however they are capable of moving in large numbers and the limits of their domain are undefined.

I'm not sure returning to Earth was part of their plan because Chamber mentions in EP1 that the existence of Earth has only been suggested in records (in other words, neither completely unmentioned (no intentional cover ups) nor clearly presented as an alternative course).

tealcactusJun 11, 2013 10:20 AM

Jun 11, 2013 9:30 AM

#276

Offline

Nov 2011

457

Takuan_Soho said:

Nickienator said:
What's the sudden problem with killing humans? Didn't Ledo kill the pirates at the start of the series?

And if Kugel was on earth all this time, wouldn't Chamber have been able to sense and locate him?

Hush, hush. We aren't looking for consistency here. Once you start thinking that way you will be wondering how exactly two different people going on two different trajectories just happened to arrive at the same point in space and time which just happened to be the one inhabitable planet in the universe.
So, turn that logic circuit off or you are just asking for a world of hurt!

I have an answer for that though. The Alliance Gate can only bridge any one point in space to another, the initial gate they formed took them from Earth to where the Hidauze are now. When the Hideauze followed, the Alliance was forced to gate again to an unknown third location, where they slowly rebuilt their forces. The reason they are attacking the Hideauze is that they want to return to Earth, but they have to go through the Hideauze to do so. When the Alliance was disengaging the Gate, for a brief moment the initial gateway to earth was open and that was why both Ledo and Kugel ended up there.

How's that?

First words of the first episode:

HorribleSubs said:
The long age of drifting ended,
and humanity found a home in the wide reaches of the galaxy.
We named it Avalon: The beautiful paradise.
Behold a shining utopia, born of our pioneering spirit and scientific mind.
This is your homeland.
All 470,000,000 citizens of Avalon hail your bravery and dedication,
and know your names as honored soldiers.
All hail the Galactic Alliance of Humankind, and its eternal future.
Humanity's endless challenge begins here.
But you must never forget that a merciless evil lurks in the depths of this cruel universe.
We must end the threat of the Hideauze, who would hinder our journey onward!
We must not allow these lower life forms to hold back humanity's race to the future!
Stand, heroes, for this is the time of our greatest trial.
Forget not the countless lives lost, nor our future comrades, yet still in grave danger.
Ceasing REM Hypnosis Education for all crew.

What I get from that: The Alliance has drifted in space for a long time. Finally they build Avalon, that huge space station. People might forget about the threat of Hideauze if not reminded constantly. Then they proceed to attack the Hideauze "who would hinder their journey onward".

GET DROPBOX HERE!
Bonus space for you and me with this link! Now 500MB per referral, up to 16GB from referrals alone.

Jun 11, 2013 9:48 AM

#277

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

morrownight said:

Fai said:

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

The truth is ignorance?

I'd say believing in a dude sitting on a cloud controlling your life is ignorance, but hey, who's judging.

Talking about that, the very BELIEF in higher power limits us.

Need I to recite a whole freaking theory of economics and how IT WAS STALLED for FEW HUNDRED YEARS in western world because of religion? Or how religion is the roots of anti-antisemitism? How about people who burned for simply saying that earth is not the center of the universe?

Religion is cancer, it burns civilizations, stalls advancement and brainwashes children.

You have clearly never experienced religion or any form of spirituality for yourself. Either because you live a sheltered life, or you were brought up by theophobic parents. Fear and denouncement of the unknown. Simple.

Oh the hilarity of the hypocrisy of religious person trying to call out others on fear of unknown.

Considering religion instead of allowing for exploration of the unknown, just goes "that guy with long white beard above us did it" goes back to lynching people, condemning abortion or cloning as well as demonizing lgbt community.

Jun 11, 2013 10:32 AM

#278

Spirai

Offline

Nov 2012

155

Fai said:

morrownight said:

Fai said:

StopDropAndBowl said:

linchpin said:
RELIGION as "complex emotion" - LOL.
RELIGION propelled humans forward - ROTFL, it's the exact opposite. It was and is holding us back.

Such simplification. Such ignorance of history.

The truth is ignorance?

I'd say believing in a dude sitting on a cloud controlling your life is ignorance, but hey, who's judging.

Talking about that, the very BELIEF in higher power limits us.

Need I to recite a whole freaking theory of economics and how IT WAS STALLED for FEW HUNDRED YEARS in western world because of religion? Or how religion is the roots of anti-antisemitism? How about people who burned for simply saying that earth is not the center of the universe?

Religion is cancer, it burns civilizations, stalls advancement and brainwashes children.

You have clearly never experienced religion or any form of spirituality for yourself. Either because you live a sheltered life, or you were brought up by theophobic parents. Fear and denouncement of the unknown. Simple.

Oh the hilarity of the hypocrisy of religious person trying to call out others on fear of unknown.

Considering religion instead of allowing for exploration of the unknown, just goes "that guy with long white beard above us did it" goes back to lynching people, condemning abortion or cloning as well as demonizing lgbt community.

I'm not going to join this argument but I would like to say 2 things:

1.) If you guys veer off the topic of this thread and into a whole religion vs atheism battle, the forum moderator is going to have to step in again and it'll all be for nothing anyways because you can't change someone's point of view by enforcing your own. You're just angering each other and the crowd of spectators look on.

2.) Your OPINION does not equate truth. Just because you believe in something and you think you have enough facts to back it up, doesn't automatically make your opinion the one and only singular truth. It's not all about you and what you believe. There are billions of humans on this Earth, each with their own individuality and lives, each grown up in different environments with varied experiences. Not everyone is going to think like you, act like you, or want to be like you. If you believe religion to be a ridiculous sham, by all means, go on ahead. If you have faith or believe that religion has/is helpful, then by all means, go on ahead. Let us not press others to accept our opinions as fact through sarcasm, insults, and etc. This is an anime discussion forum, not a debating arena. If you wish to continue your discussion, please do so on your own time and place.

SpiraiJun 11, 2013 10:36 AM

Jun 11, 2013 10:46 AM

#279

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Fai said:
Oh the hilarity of the hypocrisy of religious person trying to call out others on fear of unknown.

Considering religion instead of allowing for exploration of the unknown, just goes "that guy with long white beard above us did it" goes back to lynching people, condemning abortion or cloning as well as demonizing lgbt community.

So you admit that you've never experienced religion?

Regardless of what you may think of it, the peaceful practice of religion is not a crime. Religion gets a bad rap because people have institutionalized it and from time to time utilized it to wage ideological wars. There is no reason to derive from this that religion is the sole culprit for such conflict.

Also you seem to be unable to acknowledge anything beyond what is evidenced by recorded history. I realize it's pointless to talk about spirituality to you, but all I want to say this: calling you out on fear of the unknown may not be sufficient to vindicate religion, but realize that by the same logic your conviction in denouncing religion is equally baseless.

tealcactusJun 11, 2013 10:51 AM

Jun 11, 2013 10:47 AM

#280

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

linchpin said:
What I get from that: The Alliance has drifted in space for a long time. Finally they build Avalon, that huge space station. People might forget about the threat of Hideauze if not reminded constantly. Then they proceed to attack the Hideauze "who would hinder their journey onward".

Have we seen Avalon? Outside of the Hypnosis training? Do we know that the Alliance always tells the truth about the past?

Remember that immediately after that Krugel said that the Alliance was throwing everything they had at the Hideauze, and if they lost then "we might as well consider this war over". There was also the convenient fact that this mission just HAPPENED to be the one if Ledo survived meant that he could visit Avalon. What if all the soldiers were the same way? If they were creched together, they would roughly have the same service time and equally be eligible for Avalon.

Why would that be the case? It suggests that the Alliance is already at the extent of its resources and this was all part of the plan. Of course we know why they may not want the rank and file to know this.

Morrownight: Chamber did not have "access" to the video from earth until Ledo authorized it. So based on what he knew then Earth would seem mythical. That such information did exist suggests that the Alliance leadership knew very well that Earth existed and was necessary.

This is by no means a perfect theory, I can spot several gaps in it (including my eternal one of that if that really was the last chance of the Alliance, they gave up too easily), but right now due to contradictions in the narration, every theory seems to have gaps in it. For a plot oriented person like me it's the thing about this show that has been driving me crazy.

Jun 11, 2013 10:54 AM

#281

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

morrownight said:
Religion gets a bad rap because people have institutionalized it and from time to time utilized it to wage ideological wars.

I am agnostic, never have nor will "get" religion, that said the more I study history and religion the more I have realized that 1) most of those "ideological" wars were actually secular wars dressed up in religion, and 2) since the enlightenment there has been a sustained propaganda war that has tried to paint all that is wrong with humanity as being the result of "irrational" religion, including a great deal of lies that have been passed off as fact in history books and have only recently been re-examined.

I won't get into a long debate about the authenticity of my 2 statements, because as it has been pointed out this isn't the forum for it, however I will end my participation in pointing out that the American Civil War, WWI, WWII, and many of the most egregious human rights abuse of the past century had no religious component to them. They were purely secular. If that is the result of "reason", then maybe we need a little irrationality.

Jun 11, 2013 11:08 AM

#282

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Takuan_Soho said:

morrownight said:
Religion gets a bad rap because people have institutionalized it and from time to time utilized it to wage ideological wars.

I am agnostic, never have nor will "get" religion, that said the more I study history and religion the more I have realized that 1) most of those "ideological" wars were actually secular wars dressed up in religion, and 2) since the enlightenment there has been a sustained propaganda war that has tried to paint all that is wrong with humanity as being the result of "irrational" religion, including a great deal of lies that have been passed off as fact in history books and have only recently been re-examined.

I won't get into a long debate about the authenticity of my 2 statements, because as it has been pointed out this isn't the forum for it, however I will end my participation in pointing out that the American Civil War, WWI, WWII, and many of the most egregious human rights abuse of the past century had no religious component to them. They were purely secular. If that is the result of "reason", then maybe we need a little irrationality.

Exactly my point; spirituality itself has nothing to do with why people are fighting each other. People go to war or commit acts of violence for all kinds of reasons. But anyway I'll stop here as well.

Jun 11, 2013 11:27 AM

#283

Darklight0303

Offline

Apr 2008

11325

This series has attracted so many would be activists it's such a joke.

Jun 11, 2013 11:29 AM

#284

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Takuan_Soho said:
Chamber did not have "access" to the video from earth until Ledo authorized it. So based on what he knew then Earth would seem mythical. That such information did exist suggests that the Alliance leadership knew very well that Earth existed and was necessary.

This is by no means a perfect theory, I can spot several gaps in it (including my eternal one of that if that really was the last chance of the Alliance, they gave up too easily), but right now due to contradictions in the narration, every theory seems to have gaps in it. For a plot oriented person like me it's the thing about this show that has been driving me crazy.

I see what you mean. Come to think of it, there's no reason why they would have lost any records from that time period.

I remember after they saw that they couldn't win they called the retreat and said not to "waste any more energy". I don't know if this has anything to do with their plans, but it seems likely that any saved energy would go towards another ambush effort?

Jun 11, 2013 11:31 AM

#285

Offline

Nov 2011

457

Takuan_Soho said:

linchpin said:
What I get from that: The Alliance has drifted in space for a long time. Finally they build Avalon, that huge space station. People might forget about the threat of Hideauze if not reminded constantly. Then they proceed to attack the Hideauze "who would hinder their journey onward".

Have we seen Avalon? Outside of the Hypnosis training? Do we know that the Alliance always tells the truth about the past?

Well... Now I'm kinda confused. So you think there's no Avalon? That all the Alliance has is a fleet drifting in space? I admit, I also questioned the truthfulness of the REM hypnosis video before... But if we both question it, then we can work on even less facts to come up with our theories. We might as well dismiss the video from the citadel as manipulated. Then we would dismiss all information. And the only one remaining would be that there was ONE win-or-lose attack on the nest of Hideauze and the Alliance lost.

Or we can accept both the video from Citadel and the REM hypnosis info as true.

Aaah, I hope we will get some more info in these last 3 episodes! Because if we don't, we're never gonna stop speculating!

GET DROPBOX HERE!
Bonus space for you and me with this link! Now 500MB per referral, up to 16GB from referrals alone.

Jun 11, 2013 11:38 AM

#286

GDL-URAHARA

Offline

Jan 2008

572

morrownight said:

Exactly my point; spirituality itself has nothing to do with why people are fighting each other. People go to war or commit acts of violence for all kinds of reasons. But anyway I'll stop here as well.

Yep. So to refer based on this to the current discussion:
Here are 2 vocal groups of people:
1. Those who claim that it is necessary to kill those human-squids. They find the reason to do so. The same way as there were reasons for WWI and WWII and the wars at Vietnam, Iraq etc. THEY ARE AGGRESSORS.
2. Those who are supporting peace and ready to fight for it (in order to protect it, otherwise they would have been silent on that forum;) ). All those who fought in the same wars, after the aggressions was started. THEY ARE PROTECTORS.

That's so nice that there are both of you (views) ;)
Though, I would consider myself much closer to the 2nd party.
I let you guys (from the 1st party) have your opinion.
And if you come uninvited to my 'sea' to kill human-squids, I'll CRUSH YOU. Take my word.

Jun 11, 2013 12:56 PM

#287

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Darklight0303 said:
This series has attracted so many would be activists it's such a joke.

Does it bother you? :P

I have to say your one-liners are always pretty amusing to read.

Jun 11, 2013 12:58 PM

#288

Darklight0303

Offline

Apr 2008

11325

morrownight said:

Darklight0303 said:
This series has attracted so many would be activists it's such a joke.

Does it bother you? :P

I have to say your one-liners are always pretty amusing to read.

No. I find the hypocrisy amusing.

Jun 11, 2013 1:15 PM

#289

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

linchpin said:

Takuan_Soho said:

linchpin said:
What I get from that: The Alliance has drifted in space for a long time. Finally they build Avalon, that huge space station. People might forget about the threat of Hideauze if not reminded constantly. Then they proceed to attack the Hideauze "who would hinder their journey onward".

Have we seen Avalon? Outside of the Hypnosis training? Do we know that the Alliance always tells the truth about the past?

Well... Now I'm kinda confused. So you think there's no Avalon? That all the Alliance has is a fleet drifting in space? I admit, I also questioned the truthfulness of the REM hypnosis video before... But if we both question it, then we can work on even less facts to come up with our theories. We might as well dismiss the video from the citadel as manipulated. Then we would dismiss all information. And the only one remaining would be that there was ONE win-or-lose attack on the nest of Hideauze and the Alliance lost.

Or we can accept both the video from Citadel and the REM hypnosis info as true.

Aaah, I hope we will get some more info in these last 3 episodes! Because if we don't, we're never gonna stop speculating!

Already hypothesized few episodes back that AVALON is nothing but propaganda lie and that those "Sent to avalon" instead get killed since their "Term" of existence is up. It would fit with the whole utilitarian vibeof alliance - those about to expire in their capabilities are not worthy of existence.

Jun 11, 2013 1:38 PM

#290

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Fai said:
Already hypothesized few episodes back that AVALON is nothing but propaganda lie and that those "Sent to avalon" instead get killed since their "Term" of existence is up. It would fit with the whole utilitarian vibeof alliance - those about to expire in their capabilities are not worthy of existence.

Now you're just pulling things out of your arse. I can disprove this right off the bat.

1. Ledo is still a teenager. There's no way he's at the end of his career.

2. Kugel is older than him. He hasn't been executed. I would bet he's been on Avalon before. Reproduced while he was there.

3. What good does it do for the leadership to kill off it's own soldiers? So they can waste more resources on bringing up the next generation of soldiers?

Jun 11, 2013 1:48 PM

#291

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

morrownight said:

Fai said:
Already hypothesized few episodes back that AVALON is nothing but propaganda lie and that those "Sent to avalon" instead get killed since their "Term" of existence is up. It would fit with the whole utilitarian vibeof alliance - those about to expire in their capabilities are not worthy of existence.

Now you're just pulling things out of your arse. I can disprove this right off the bat.

1. Ledo is still a teenager. There's no way he's at the end of his career.

2. Kugel is older than him. He hasn't been executed. I would bet he's been on Avalon before. Reproduced while he was there.

3. What good does it do for the leadership to kill off it's own soldiers? So they can waste more resources on bringing up the next generation of soldiers?

and your whole post is not pulling things out of your ass?

You bet it is considering you assume expiration date directly relies on their age. Next time please bring arguments, your faith's not enough, sadly. Expiration date can refer to anything starting with health condition and going to the mental stability(since there are signs Ledo has been becoming self aware and breaking away from brainwashing. ANd we know nothing about Kugel to make the assumptions you did.

This is the last time I answer to your nonsense, please enjoy flamebaiting someone else, thank you for your time.

AhenshihaelJun 11, 2013 1:54 PM

Jun 11, 2013 2:04 PM

#292

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Fai said:

morrownight said:

Fai said:
Already hypothesized few episodes back that AVALON is nothing but propaganda lie and that those "Sent to avalon" instead get killed since their "Term" of existence is up. It would fit with the whole utilitarian vibeof alliance - those about to expire in their capabilities are not worthy of existence.

Now you're just pulling things out of your arse. I can disprove this right off the bat.

1. Ledo is still a teenager. There's no way he's at the end of his career.

2. Kugel is older than him. He hasn't been executed. I would bet he's been on Avalon before. Reproduced while he was there.

3. What good does it do for the leadership to kill off it's own soldiers? So they can waste more resources on bringing up the next generation of soldiers?

and your whole post is not pulling things out of your ass?

You bet it is considering you assume expiration date directly relies on their age. Next time please bring arguments, your faith's not enough, sadly.

This is the last time I answer to your nonsense, please enjoy flamebaiting someone else, thank you for your time.

This is an argument. It's an appeal to reason. You would know what I'm talking about if you knew anything at all about the human life cycle (seriously this is common sense). Let me spell this out for you.

The human body reaches its physical and mental peak around the age of 20-30, and there is a significant portion of people who do so in their 40s. As stated by Chamber in the first episode, Ledo has even proven himself to be a superior specimen among his peers, probably one of the reasons they want him to go to Avalon to reproduce and give birth to a healthy next generation.

Does it all make sense now?

tealcactusJun 11, 2013 2:13 PM

Jun 11, 2013 4:55 PM

#293

GDL-URAHARA

Offline

Jan 2008

572

morrownight said:

Fai said:

Expiration date can refer to anything starting with health condition and going to the mental stability(since there are signs Ledo has been becoming self aware and breaking away from brainwashing. ANd we know nothing about Kugel to make the assumptions you did.

Does it all make sense now?

Yes, your assumptions, as Fai pointed out - that's what they are - assumptions, are making more sense now. You have backed it up by the theory of human life cycle.
We don't even know how long those humans leave... That's great that you can build such broad assumptions.
And it might be correct, if the writer of this story/anime decides so, but unless he does so...
Just don't stop and find other versions - they are possible as well. See multipel solutions as many possible options.
Don't limit yourself by firm believe that you know the only one correct answer. You don't. At least not with 100% certainty.

Jun 11, 2013 4:58 PM

#294

VampireOjouChan

Offline

Oct 2009

575

This was the first episode that wasn't really to my liking.. Pinion is dumb as fuck and thinks he knows it all... he annoys me so much.. Interesting end of the episode, let's see what will happen. I honestly hope I won't be disappointed since except for this episode, I've been loving every bit of this anime :) Ledo <3

Jun 11, 2013 6:06 PM

#295

StardustCharisma

Offline

Feb 2012

2688

Not liking Pinion anymore. I'm kinda siding with Chamber's explanation at the end of the episode on this one.

Jun 11, 2013 10:20 PM

#296

Gigarit

Offline

Nov 2011

143

Stuff is getting real xD

Jun 12, 2013 12:50 AM

#297

-MgZ_

Offline

Jun 2010

3696

Obvious trap is obvious.

Jun 12, 2013 6:52 AM

#298

Zel_Ezl

Offline

Sep 2009

2821

The last episode was very depressing. It hurts my feeling. Humans vs. Humans. And the last survivor Hideauze was killed.. by chamber!!! I hate it! I hate Ledo!!! You should've listen to Amy..

Gaaaaaa!!! I want to punch PINION!!! @_@
HE' s getting on my nerves!!

Jun 12, 2013 8:21 AM

#299

MorningGlory

Offline

Jun 2008

4443

Zel_Ezl said:
The last episode was very depressing. It hurts my feeling. Humans vs. Humans. And the last survivor Hideauze was killed.. by chamber!!! I hate it! I hate Ledo!!! You should've listen to Amy..

Gaaaaaa!!! I want to punch PINION!!! @_@
HE' s getting on my nerves!!

I guess its more less depressing if its Human vs alien scum.

Jun 12, 2013 8:46 AM

#300

Offline

Oct 2012

6648

linchpin said:
Well... Now I'm kinda confused. So you think there's no Avalon? That all the Alliance has is a fleet drifting in space? I admit, I also questioned the truthfulness of the REM hypnosis video before... But if we both question it, then we can work on even less facts to come up with our theories. We might as well dismiss the video from the citadel as manipulated. Then we would dismiss all information. And the only one remaining would be that there was ONE win-or-lose attack on the nest of Hideauze and the Alliance lost.

Or we can accept both the video from Citadel and the REM hypnosis info as true.

Aaah, I hope we will get some more info in these last 3 episodes! Because if we don't, we're never gonna stop speculating!

It doesn't have to be an either truth/lie. We don't know if the Alliance "lied", they could be telling the truth as they see it. To them the Hideauze are inferior creatures (because they are a mixture of humans and squids), to them Avalon is the goal of all their efforts (to recapture Earth). If they succeed in this attack, then they will have Avalon a place where humanity would have the space to eat what they want, drink what they want, and reproduce freely. The little fibs that they told in the training would be overlooked in the joy of actually acquiring Earth.

This would make sense if humanity really hasn't found a planet to live on. If in the hundreds, if not thousands of years since they left earth, even with Gate technology, they have discovered no habitable planets (though given their technology I am not sure why they could terraform planets, but that is another matter), then Earth is the one place they do know. And if the ice age was caused by solar orbits, they would know exactly when it would be possible to return.

This would explain why they were willing to attempt their ambush of the Hideauze, why they would risk their fleet in a desperate frontal attack against their entrenched foe. This interpretation would explain everything, the only thing we need to do to make it non-contradictory is to think that the Alliance bent the truth a little to present Avalon as a spaceship (which is what the troops would understand, they couldn't conceive a planet until they reached one), and that it was completed by the Alliance.

We will find out more next episode. Krugel is older than the soldiers who fought, and since he isn't one of the silver haired, purple eyed group, he probably is the one who knows all the Alliance's secrets (he was the one who said that if the attacked failed, the war was over). There will be a few more twists that easily could destroy this theory. I just hope they resolve the complications instead of increasing them.

Jun 12, 2013 10:24 AM

#301

Offline

Dec 2009

107

Takuan_Soho said:
This would explain why they were willing to attempt their ambush of the Hideauze, why they would risk their fleet in a desperate frontal attack against their entrenched foe. This interpretation would explain everything, the only thing we need to do to make it non-contradictory is to think that the Alliance bent the truth a little to present Avalon as a spaceship (which is what the troops would understand, they couldn't conceive a planet until they reached one), and that it was completed by the Alliance.

We will find out more next episode. Krugel is older than the soldiers who fought, and since he isn't one of the silver haired, purple eyed group, he probably is the one who knows all the Alliance's secrets (he was the one who said that if the attacked failed, the war was over). There will be a few more twists that easily could destroy this theory. I just hope they resolve the complications instead of increasing them.

I'm still convinced that a space station called Avalon exists, and that it's where the CU leadership is based. Plus I don't really see the point in telling such fibs if they're ultimately planning to return to Earth, where everything will come out into the open.

Kugel has the same color hair; you might have mistaken it for a different color because the lighting kept changing. If you look at 10:15 in EP1, you'll see both Ledo and Kugel in the same frame with the same hair color. His eye color seems a little more dubious however... perhaps a slightly darker shade of red but I honestly can't tell.

Jun 12, 2013 10:39 AM

#302