| Whether you have or have not noticed, the ratings of sequels are becoming a bit of a problem on MAL. It started in earnest with Code Geass R2, which shot up to the top 10 in 2 episodes. Since then, we've had Aria the Origination and Karano Kyoukai 5 taking similar shortcuts to the top 10. Still more sequels are waiting in the wings to break these speed records (i.e. FMA 2, Haruhi 2, Higurashi Rei). If you doubt that this is happening, feel free to check out my blog post here or my discussion with kuroshiroi on the subject here. Both of these contain a fairly in-depth look into how sequels, in general, get a somewhat artificial ratings boost. I understand that the sequel problem is not a crippling one. However, it is one that will worsen with time and should be dealt with sooner rather than later. This leads me to a proposal that kuroshiroi and I have mulled over for a bit which, we believe, should dial down the controversy flames and toplist overcrowding surrounding the sequels issue. It goes as follows: - Rank only the original anime series on the toplist. - List the sequels in a bundle with the main show. Give them scores, but no overall rank - Make a general exception for productions over 5 years (between end of prequel and start of sequel) apart, because a lot can change in 5 years Plan A: - Allow individual exceptions (i.e. shows with drastic shark jumps/beard grows) by way of popular consent - Use anonymous voting via PMs for fans, conducted by the staff, to determine the popular consent (Is a sequel is of greater or lesser quality?) - Use written recommendations (rather than numbers) based on this vote to link shows from the same franchise to one another while giving an indication of quality, noting positive and negative qualities based on how the vote turns out Plan B: -Institute helpful/unhelpful tallys for recommendations. This will help people determine whether or not a sequel is better than the original, and would help the recs section clean itself up. I appreciate feedback on this proposal, including any problems you may have with it. |
TorisunanohokoriFeb 10, 2009 7:55 PM
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| Needless to say, but I'm saying it anyway, I support this. |
| Read it all and I agree 100% with it. |
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| In order to do this you must first find out what exactly the top anime chart is for. You seem to think it's not for reflecting what the top anime are, but for something else. As it stands, it fulfills its purpose. It reflects what MAL users happen to think is best. Long shows such as Legend of the Galactic Heroes also get a very large ratings boost because of their length, if you want a completely non-inflated chart, you'd have to fix that as well. |
| Two objections from mods right away, huh? Plate said: In order to do this you must first find out what exactly the top anime chart is for. You seem to think it's not for reflecting what the top anime are, but for something else. As it stands, it fulfills its purpose. It reflects what MAL users happen to think is best. Long shows such as Legend of the Galactic Heroes also get a very large ratings boost because of their length, if you want a completely non-inflated chart, you'd have to fix that as well. You go here from suggesting that MAL users think that the current list is the best possible system to admitting that the system has more flaws than the ones I pointed out. General flamewars surrounding works that take advantage of this phenomenon indicate that a visible bloc of MAL isn't exactly happy with the system either. Just because the system works as is doesn't mean there isn't plenty of room for improvement. At any rate, I think this suggestion is one that merits feedback at least. Also, LOGH's episode number (of which I have seen none) does serve as somewhat of a deterrant to new viewers, but arguably not as much as having a preestablished season. An archive panic serves as an initial deterrant and scares some people off, but a first season serves as a fairly solid force field between legit criticizers and/or "haters" and season 2. And as for IMDB: 1. It's not MAL, and thus the dynamics of the list are somewhat different 2. It's sequel to total ratio over the top 150 is 4/10 5/20 5/30 6/40 6/50 6/60 8/70 8/80 8/90 8/100 10/110 10/120 10/130 10/140 10/150 ...and so forth. which is in pretty huge contrast to the ratio MAL has over length that I catalogued in my blog entry. Sequels inhabit the top 10 in IMDB, but they pollute the top 200 (at least) in MAL. 3. Anime sequels are different from movie sequels in many ways, the most prominent being that many are really just new seasons (R2, etc.). |
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| So from the logic you're using: Original series = sequel. Which is far from true. Even if the seasons are put out and announce separately, it doesn't make sequels the same thing as originals, especially when they tend to be separated by time and different motivations/target crowds for airing them. If you wish to avoid the new seasons shooting to the top you would just have to do a bit of messing with numbers, and how the ranking system actually works, but honestly: Do you really use the ranking system? I ignore ranking systems on every site I use. It can be nice for a quick reference, and sometimes is reflective of the quality of the material, but i have different tastes from others and more than not refuse to trust rankings (and even public scoring). It is what it is, changing it would be fairly pointless. IF anything, you could set up a more restrictive/regulated/normalized ranking system, but that would probably take more work than it's worth. |
| #dontcare |
aisakku said: So from the logic you're using: Original series = sequel. Which is far from true. Even if the seasons are put out and announce separately, it doesn't make sequels the same thing as originals, especially when they tend to be separated by time and different motivations/target crowds for airing them. All of these concerns are actually addressed in the proposal. Written recommendations (governed by anonymous popular vote) take the place of scores to indicate difference in quality. Which should, frankly, be more helpful to one who doesn't use rankings. Also, sequels over 5 years distant from the prequel would automatically be ranked separately, and a provision for separating sequels which experience a drastic quality jump. Just because you ignore rankings personally does not mean everyone does. They are used by a sufficient number of people to start flamewars/clone account fiascos. Not to imply that everyone who pays attention to ratings is a flamewhore, though. Still, fixing the legit flaws in the system would reduce trolling which is in no way beneficial to anyone. Besides, if you really don't care, then you shouldn't be so quick to disregard any benefits of potential changes to it. aisakku said: IF anything, you could set up a more restrictive/regulated/normalized ranking system, but that would probably take more work than it's worth. kuro and I talked about this and actually had a data-heavy method in the works, but, as you said, it's too complicated and would really just be nonsense to most people. Likely it would raise further hell. The proposal here fixes the primary issue of list overcrowding while being comprehensible to the average person. |
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| Actually, a quick change to the way the system itself work would be an easier task than grouping anime together and creating other rules. The formulae themselves wouldn't be all that complicated, it'd be a simple case of normalization and restriction. And honestly, no the concerns were not addressed in the proposal. They are separate entities with a common relation. Allow exceptions? anonymous voting? written recommendations? Far far more complicated than what is really needed. Additionally, what would really be the purpose of it? Who makes exceptions on what basis? How is that possibly fair to everything? Anonymous voting is basically saying that most peoples opinions don't count, would add another strain to the staff load, and really serves no logical purpose in the long run. And written recommendations? again... giving far too much work to the staff or asking xinil to develop a rather complicated way to sort these recommendations. THis again would lead to the point that: you're basically stating that the majority of people's opinions do not matter. It would be an extremely exclusive system with far more strain on the staff, xinil, and the server with no real logical gain. As for people that make clone accounts etc. that would be far more easily fixed by putting restrictions on the accounts whose scores count towards the total average. You can make a weighted average extremely easy. For example, a simple solution to the clone accounts would be to set a minimum number of watched/watching anime to count towards a weighted average. Something of this nature would be far more easily be dealt with simple mathematics rather than creating random new features and rules concerning the top 10 |
| #dontcare |
aisakku said: Actually, a quick change to the way the system itself work would be an easier task than grouping anime together and creating other rules. The formulae themselves wouldn't be all that complicated, it'd be a simple case of normalization and restriction. And honestly, no the concerns were not addressed in the proposal. They are separate entities with a common relation. Allow exceptions? anonymous voting? written recommendations? Far far more complicated than what is really needed. Additionally, what would really be the purpose of it? Who makes exceptions on what basis? How is that possibly fair to everything? Anonymous voting is basically saying that most peoples opinions don't count, would add another strain to the staff load, and really serves no logical purpose in the long run. And written recommendations? again... giving far too much work to the staff or asking xinil to develop a rather complicated way to sort these recommendations. "simple case of normalization and restriction" is something of an oxymoron: it would actually require a user-by-user analysis of who does and doesn't drop and how scores change to fully and accurately represent the average change in sequel rating. Anything less would be an oversimplification in much the same way as the current system is. Sequel entries are not being eliminated here, they are just being taken off the rankings list and grouped with the originals on the rankings list _only_ to avoid artificial inflation. Who said the anonymous voting was among a small sample? The reason it was suggested is that public suggestions on these subjects can be very heated and may not reflect overall opinion. Public ratings by the numbers, of course, are caused by the same phenomenon we're trying to prevent. Of course, if you prefer, we could just allow the recommendations to be written without a guiding popular voice, that just might not reflect the relative quality as well. Or we could give them the same helpful/unhelpful counters reviews use. Besides, we already have a written recommendation system in place. All it would take is some refinement (i.e. weeding out things that say "they're both awesome", putting recommendations that compare sequels at the top of the list, adding helpful/unhelpful counts to them). aisakku said: THis again would lead to the point that: you're basically stating that the majority of people's opinions do not matter. It would be an extremely exclusive system with far more strain on the staff, xinil, and the server with no real logical gain. I fail to see the point at which the majority's opinions are disregarded. What I am saying, backed by mounds of data, is that the sequel system as it stands causes a significant distortion in the majority opinion. A distortion which causes controversy and trolling and could stand to be fixed. aisakku said: As for people that make clone accounts etc. that would be far more easily fixed by putting restrictions on the accounts whose scores count towards the total average. You can make a weighted average extremely easy. For example, a simple solution to the clone accounts would be to set a minimum number of watched/watching anime to count towards a weighted average. Something of this nature would be far more easily be dealt with simple mathematics rather than creating random new features and rules concerning the top 10 A weighted is in and of itself somewhat elitist and quite complicated. Some people don't watch as much anime, and some clone account makers have craploads of time on their hands, enough to replicate and/or slightly modify phony lists that meet whatever standard might be imposed. More than that, though, the weighting solution doesn't address the roots of the problem that are the flaws in the system itself. |
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| Dude, again.... The math behind the system would not be that difficult. In case you weren't aware there are already normalized systems set up within the site. Believe me I more than understand the process of normalizing things. Feel free to look over the score comparison threads if you don't believe me. I never mentioned ANYTHING about saying series being eliminated. I have no idea why you even bring that up... You assume that there will be a lot of people using said anonymous voting. People are lazy, especially on the internet. Those people who are motivated enough to screw around with scores with clone accounts would abuse the new system just the same... Implementing a new way to score things would just be introducing a more complicated way for the site/staff in which a bunch of people would have their opinion left out and the motivated people will find a way around. I don't care what kind of system you have, it will be abused by those who wish to unless you get something EXTREMELY restrictive... which would make everything very user unfriendly and just a pain in the ass to work with. Weighted systems are not elitist... they are simply an attempt to normalize scores. This is mostly due to the fact that EVERYONE scores differently. You can't solve the problem, you really can't. The only way to really do it would be to make MAL a completely closed invite only with harsh rules and restrictions website, and even then it could be abused. Regardless of what you do, people will abuse the system. There are ways to make it better, but the site should stay simple. An anonymous voting system is not a way to keep it simple. Last post because arguing about this is pointless as well. |
| #dontcare |
aisakku said: The math behind the system would not be that difficult. In case you weren't aware there are already normalized systems set up within the site. Believe me I more than understand the process of normalizing things. Feel free to look over the score comparison threads if you don't believe me. And where, pray tell, are these threads? I search "score comparison" and don't see your name in any of them. It's kind of hard to say anything about the other normalized systems one way or the other when I'm not sure which ones you're referring to. aisakku said: You assume that there will be a lot of people using said anonymous voting. People are lazy, especially on the internet. Those people who are motivated enough to screw around with scores with clone accounts would abuse the new system just the same... Implementing a new way to score things would just be introducing a more complicated way for the site/staff in which a bunch of people would have their opinion left out and the motivated people will find a way around. I said in the above post that the voting doesn't even have to be anonymous - you could just clean up the recommendations system and give them helpful/unhelpful counters. And people would use them - they certainly do with reviews. In fact, this way might be much better and easier to implement, as the recommendations sections would basically clean themselves up. Let me explain: more focus on recs makes people more pressured to write a more helpful one, which, over the long run, will in turn cause people to rely on them more. So thanks, you've provided some very helpful positive feedback. aisakku said: I don't care what kind of system you have, it will be abused by those who wish to unless you get something EXTREMELY restrictive... which would make everything very user unfriendly and just a pain in the ass to work with. Weighted systems are not elitist... they are simply an attempt to normalize scores. This is mostly due to the fact that EVERYONE scores differently. You can't solve the problem, you really can't. The only way to really do it would be to make MAL a completely closed invite only with harsh rules and restrictions website, and even then it could be abused. Regardless of what you do, people will abuse the system. There are ways to make it better, but the site should stay simple. An anonymous voting system is not a way to keep it simple. You're offering a choice between the admittedly flawed system we have now and a complicated/restricted system with its own problems. Just because the system has problems and will be abused to some degree no matter what doesn't mean that there aren't things that can't be done to make things better without drastically restricting individual rights. Yes, motivated people will try to get their way in any system, but there will be fewer people motivated to mold the ratings to their own reality when the system takes care of its most major flaws. It seems like your biggest criticisms are for the anonymous voting system. What if we used the helpful/unhelpful system for written recs already in place? It seems to address all of your basic concerns, though it might place slightly more stress on the server by giving it a few more numbers to crunch. |
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| I'm probably reiterating some of the things already said but... First of all: http://www.tv.com/shows/highest-rated/all.html Most anime sequels these days are like TV seasons, not like movie sequels. People don't rank individual TV seasons, they may rate them differently but the only rank that should matter is for the first season or the overall show. Nobody starts watching Code Geass R2 without seeing the original or KnK at the 6th movie based on its position in the top anime list. Xinil: does MAL have a system in place to filter out vote stuffing, like IMDB, or does it only use the weighting system explained here? aisakku: You think artificially tampering with scores is the best way? That's really not fair towards anybody since that means you don't trust people's scores and think they should be altered to fit yours or somebody else perception or opinion. That's the beauty of this suggestion, it should be almost completely fair, transparent and avoid altering scores. The reason for the rather complicated exception system is so that shows that don't deserve to be grouped aren't. If a show has been unfairly grouped with its sequel there should be a system in place to correct that error. As for the added work load on MAL's staff... is that a valid reason for not implementing this? I'm pretty sure they all want to improve MAL and if this can improve MAL it's not really a deal breaker. I'd like to pose one question: What is the top anime list used for? In other words, who uses it and why? I think most people that do use it are treating it as a simple recommendation system and not as a way to see the top anime. Seeing a show occupy the 5th place should be enough of a recommendation and seeing that the sequel gets an even higher score (typical of MAL) is just gravy. Which brings me to my point: Ranking sequels is useless. As I said before, people pretty much start at the beginning of a show and if they like it enough they will watch the sequel etc. People will still be able to rate sequels, they simply won't be ranked. If anybody can tell me why ranking sequels is somehow useful I'm all ears. And thanks for all the feedback :) |
| How about a separate top list that only includes original series? You could add an extra tab to the currently existing lists along with "most popular," etc. That way you don't have to worry about "sequels that are five years apart" and stuff like that, because they'll be in a separate list. |
naikou said: How about a separate top list that only includes original series? You could add an extra tab to the currently existing lists along with "most popular," etc. That way you don't have to worry about "sequels that are five years apart" and stuff like that, because they'll be in a separate list. ^This. Though I get your logic, not-including originals in the Top 25 is kind of stupid, since Top 25 is supposed to be the best of all anime. If XYZ sequel is better than the anime QWE, and if QWE is in Top 25, I see no reason for XYZ sequel to not enter the Top 25. Edit: On a side note, why are there 7 different Kara no Kyoukai entries? Shouldn't 1 entry with 7 episodes suffice? Same thing with Pokemon. |
DaBigDFeb 12, 2009 9:46 PM
naikou said: How about a separate top list that only includes original series? You could add an extra tab to the currently existing lists along with "most popular," etc. That way you don't have to worry about "sequels that are five years apart" and stuff like that, because they'll be in a separate list. i think it should be the opposite, with a list that only includes sequels. that way the original, along with movies and OVA's will all share the top list. And since there's already a button for top tv series's that could just be used for the original series's. DaBigD said: ^This. Though I get your logic, not-including originals in the Top 25 is kind of stupid, since Top 25 is supposed to be the best of all anime. If XYZ sequel is better than the anime QWE, and if QWE is in Top 25, I see no reason for XYZ sequel to not enter the Top 25. Edit: On a side note, why are there 7 different Kara no Kyoukai entries? Shouldn't 1 entry with 7 episodes suffice? Same thing with Pokemon. the reason why it would be stupid for XYZ sequel to enter the top 25 if QWE original is already there would be because there's no point. its just taking the spot of another original series. If we were to use the top list as a reference for new users to use then what would be the point of seeing the same anime twice? Its not like knowing that something is there twice is going to make them want to watch it anymore then if the first season is on the top yet the second season is on another page. If its an anime that seems to fit the persons tastes then they will watch it regardless of seasons, and if they are using the list as a reference to see high rated anime they are going to watch the top 25 whether the second season is there or not. Also, i really dont see how saying "the sequel is better" is a valid argument in any case. Its all the same anime, the seasons will be similar no matter what because its the same overall anime. and even if one season is better it will still only appeal to those who enjoyed the first. And lastly, the opinion of the second season being better will almost always be by someone who already enjoyed the original. It creates a group of opinions that is not diverse at all since most users wont watch through the first to get to the second if they didn't like enjoy it, even if season two is rated higher. My main argument in support of the change is that if someone is going to watch a new anime, knowing where the second season is placed wont make a difference and it clutters up the list with useless information. And Kara no Kyoukai should be all in one entry but it was decided other wise a while ago (i still haven't read the thread where it was discussed). (I don't know if what i brought up was already stated because i haven't read through all of the posts yet. but that is my opinion regardless.) |
KetuekigamiFeb 12, 2009 11:46 PM
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| I don't really like this idea, sorry to say. It's too much of a big modification to an only slightly flawed system. I had a thought, though. The basic idea is that sequels are generally rated higher than prequels because people who didn't like the prequels don't bother as much to watch the sequels right? So, therefore a system could be introduced where sequels are only included in the top list properly (by 'not properly' I would mean either not included at all, or their ratings aren't taken completely literally, in that they receive a modified, slightly lower score than what score they actually have) when the amount of people that have seen it is at a particular percentage of the amount of people that have seen the prequel - maybe 80 or 90%, idk. Hope that makes sense. Sorry to hijack the topic, but I figured this the most appropriately place to post this idea. |
Ketuekigami said: It all depends on how you use Top 2530 (I just remembered that it was 30.) I completely agree with you if Top 30 is made so that we can look at it and decide what to watch next. But I believe that it is simply the list of the top anime. Well, I for one don't use it to find new anime to watch. Then again, there are probably many that do, so I don't really care.*wall of text* |
| No. The system works for its purpose as it is and does not need such a needless change. The only reason for such a change is to bitch about your favorite anime not being on top. |
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| Tbh i think its pretty stupid thing to do. Theres not really a way for it to work properly and i think the system is fine as it is. |
| Alrighty, since this seems to be an academic discussion at this point maybe I can change some opinions or have my own changed :) To reiterate: This change should only affect actual sequels, not spin-offs, remakes, huge staff changes etc. In other words, logical seasons. BigSimo: Artificially manipulating scores is, IMO, an extremely delicate matter. Who will decide how much to lower/raise scores and how can people trust any system that does that. The method behind it would have to be completely secret to ensure that people wouldn't try to affect it and that would probably never be enough. Scores should be calculated the same for every show and every season without special exceptions, that's the only way to ensure fairness and transparency. DaBigD: But what is the difference between season one and two of most shows? Why do they even need to be ranked or scored seperately? Why doesn't Bleach have 10 entries, for each arc? The arcs vary wildly in quality and enjoyment. Why does KnK have 7 entries and LOGH 1? I'm fairly sure LOGH wasn't released on a regular schedule and actually has 4 'seasons'. There doesn't seem to be any rule for governing the amount of entries shows get, except the airing dates and that rule doesn't seem to be followed exactly to the letter. Maybe I'm missing something. I gather some of these questionable entries might be combined in the future but most won't. TheDrunkenShadow & Sugoi-otaku: At which point, if any, does this change cease to be needless? The 5 top spots occupied by one franchise? 15 out of the top 30? The top 50 entries all being logical seasons of the same show? Never? I'm kind of digging the idea of another top list that features a 'filtered' list of original anime, excluding specials, OVAs, sequels etc. Then again, I don't use the top list, I just care. |
kuroshiroi said: BigSimo: Artificially manipulating scores is, IMO, an extremely delicate matter. Who will decide how much to lower/raise scores and how can people trust any system that does that. The method behind it would have to be completely secret to ensure that people wouldn't try to affect it and that would probably never be enough. Scores should be calculated the same for every show and every season without special exceptions, that's the only way to ensure fairness and transparency. Yeah I thought that might be the case. I just wasn't sure how difficult it would be to integrate it. |
kuroshiroi said: They don't have to be ranked/scored seperately. The production values may change from the anime to the sequel, but in most cases they don't. Unless they are drastically different from each other, I see no point on treating them as different anime.DaBigD: But what is the difference between season one and two of most shows? Why do they even need to be ranked or scored seperately? Why doesn't Bleach have 10 entries, for each arc? The arcs vary wildly in quality and enjoyment. Why does KnK have 7 entries and LOGH 1? I'm fairly sure LOGH wasn't released on a regular schedule and actually has 4 'seasons'. There doesn't seem to be any rule for governing the amount of entries shows get, except the airing dates and that rule doesn't seem to be followed exactly to the letter. Maybe I'm missing something. I gather some of these questionable entries might be combined in the future but most won't. The thing is; because they are treated as different anime, the sequel should be able to get ranked higher and enter the top anime list. It does you no good to see KnK 5 on top of the list, because you have to get through the other four, I agree with that. But that just doesn't change the fact that the users find it better than the 1081327359 other anime out there. My point? Merge the sequels with their prequels, as long as there is no drastic changes - which probably won't work, because the majority of the anime community think that sequels are different shows altogether. Even if they are very similar and the sequel started a week after the end of the first part (I'm looking at you, Shugo Chara.) As long as it doesn't happen, the sequels are free to enter the top anime page. |
| DaBigD: I have no problem with that solution. It certainly would make things simpler. That's basically taking the original proposal one logical step further. |
DaBigD said: My point? Merge the sequels with their prequels, as long as there is no drastic changes - which probably won't work, because the majority of the anime community think that sequels are different shows altogether. Even if they are very similar and the sequel started a week after the end of the first part (I'm looking at you, Shugo Chara.) As long as it doesn't happen, the sequels are free to enter the top anime page. One potential problem with this idea is that when more episodes for a series got announced, completed entries on member's would suddenly no longer be completed. I can see that getting confusing. |
Anomalous said: One potential problem with this idea is that when more episodes for a series got announced, completed entries on member's would suddenly no longer be completed. I can see that getting confusing. Well, we could make it so that notifications were sent to members of anime with an upcoming new season. Also, we could up the number of episodes and shift the show on the list to On Hold (or another status of the user's choice). I know we already have a timestamp-based code for swapping the status of a list entry. |
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freedoleen said: So adding a word or altering a word in the title is enough to warrant a sequel entry? Following that logic, no sequels are going to be merged since I'm pretty sure they all have slightly different titles.It won't happen though. We won't merge sequels like Shugo Chara or Shikabane-hime. Any more ideas... :) At this moment, creating another top list for original anime seems like the best option but the work required to execute it might not be worth it if only a handful of people are going to use it. |
| No. This means every show would have to be incorporated into one. All the sequels, specials, sidestories and movies plus the original in one slot? How would we ever be able to judge if it's good or not? And anyway, shows have to judged on a specific basis, not as a whole. Still, i think your proposal stands well for some shows, especially ones like Black Lagoon or Girls Bravo, where the first and second season are exactly alike. |
Sohei said: Did you even read the original post or any of the subsequent posts? Everything would get its own entry, it just wouldn't be ranked. It would still receive a score and you could even rate individual seasons. The only entry the top ranking would include is the one most likely to matter to new viewers, usually the original but exceptions could be made.No. This means every show would have to be incorporated into one. All the sequels, specials, sidestories and movies plus the original in one slot? How would we ever be able to judge if it's good or not? And anyway, shows have to judged on a specific basis, not as a whole. Still, i think your proposal stands well for some shows, especially ones like Black Lagoon or Girls Bravo, where the first and second season are exactly alike. Your final sentence is basically agreeing with the proposal though so I don't get your post. freedoleen: Does MAL have any intention of creating franchise entries? That would be a really cool feature. |
| Well, there would have to be a new type of entry, a sort of summary of every special, ova, sequel etc. on one page, where we could get an overview of the entire franchise. I know the search and relations can probably be used for that but the presentation is lacking something. Anyway, that's probably off-topic. |
| personally i'm against this, there's a reason that Aria the Origination is rated as highly as it is, its the best of the series and should be rated more highly than the other 2. also with shows like Honey & Clover, i loved the first season but hated the second, if i were forced to rate the series as a whole rather than by season i'd have to give it a much lower rating even tho i really loved it in the beginning. and what about shows like full metal panic fumoffu? they're technically sequels to their predecessors but they have almost nothing to do with them in terms of plot. its true that people can't rate individual seasons of normal tv, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't like to be able to. how many times have you thought to yourself "This season isn't as good as last season" or "Wow, this season is soo much better than last season", just because other sites don't address this issue doesn't mean that MAL shouldn't. also, it'd be more of a hassle to implement than its worth as i believe several people have already said. |
| One of the things I forgot to take into account earlier was the whole issue of how the layperson on MAL usually reacts to such a change. I do remember what happened when spam postcounts stopped happening - the public reaction was fairly mixed, and it garnered a lot of complaints even though it was, by all rights, something which helped out MAL's rep as a whole. Of course, in this situation, it's somewhat harder to do something because it would require, by the approaches we have now, a fairly massive overhaul even if all that were to be done would be to combine entires like "Major season 1", "Major season 2" ... "Major season 5", into "Major". I admit that the problem isn't urgent enough to risk drawing that much fire at this point. I'm not a big fan of the argument that we should be able to rate separate seasons because of simple differences in quality, because that argument itself is inconsistent with the fact that individual shows vary in quality, from arc to arc and even episode to episode, within single seasons (or at least list entries). Personally, at least, I would rate the first halves of Naruto and Comic Party a bit higher if I could. Splitting up shows by seasons allows a somewhat artificial partitioning of ratings which overemphasizes the opinions of hardcore followers and inflates the overall score. Shows have to be taken as a whole. But there are spinoffs and semi-sequels, true, and categorizing them is somewhat awkward. At this point, I'm still not sure what the best way to distinguish significantly different shows would be. |
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kuroshiroi said: Did you even read the original post or any of the subsequent posts? Everything would get its own entry, it just wouldn't be ranked. It would still receive a score and you could even rate individual seasons. The only entry the top ranking would include is the one most likely to matter to new viewers, usually the original but exceptions could be made. Your final sentence is basically agreeing with the proposal though so I don't get your post. freedoleen: Does MAL have any intention of creating franchise entries? That would be a really cool feature. Why yes. The ideas became different as the thread progressed, but it's always better to address the original issue. I don't think re-organizing the ranking system and adding extra entries for series as a whole helps in any way. You might not agree with the rankings, but theres obviously alot of people who do. oh and, franchise entries seem interesting, but all the extra work wouldn't add much. I don't see what it would suposedly add to the site. |
| Franchise entries look better than combining sequels. As I said above, combining them won't work, since both MAL community and the general anime community are too deep into these sequel business that it just won't work. Allowing only certain sequels to retain their sequel status would just bring chaos; if I say that the sequel ABC is crap and should be treated as a different anime, then another person can say that XYZ should be treated as a different anime as well, even if it doesn't need to be. Then again, only allowing "sequel" status to those with different production companies may solve the problem, but just a director change may make the anime change drastically. Again, it always boils down to the fact that we are humans: we are not perfect. Top 30 franchise list would be nice to have as a reference when looking for new anime to watch, but I don't know how much coding would that require for not much gain in the eyes of an average anime watcher. MAL isn't perfect, but we want to make it as close to it as possible, right? Edit: Punctuation. |
DaBigD said: MAL isn't human and can be made perfect :)Again, it always boils down to the fact that we are humans: we are not perfect. MAL isn't perfect, but we want to make it as close to it as possible, right? DaBigD said: Probably less coding and time than we think since Xinil seems very capable in doing those things; the main issue is the work related to actually deciding which things to add to which franchise and catagorizing everything. And would shows that only have one entry get a franchise entry or not, I'd have to say yes in order to make things consistent. And what to do with shows like Minami-ke and FMP? Different studios and different emphases.Top 30 franchise list would be nice to have as a reference when looking for new anime to watch, but I don't know how much coding would that require for not much gain in the eyes of an average anime watcher. This is a tough nut to crack, assuming people even want to crack it. |
| This thread lost quite a bit in the crash, didn't it? It's not like we're above merging database sequels, if only to prevent confusing clutter. I discovered this particular thread only recently: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=48323 Though stated in the thread that the standards being applied to manga/novels are different from those which are applied to anime. When I asked Faust about it, he said that entry mergers are more or less done on a case-by-case basis. Which isn't exactly bad, but somewhat precludes a large-scale, long-term system fix. The more that I think of it, the more I wonder if we might be starting this discussion in the wrong place. Maybe the purpose of the series entries and ratings system (ill-defined as they are) are the sticking points. Without clear definitions, finding a solution to the sequels issue is pretty difficult. All the more so because this debate is actually being fueled, in many cases, by people's individual opinions on the top anime du jour. |
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Torisunanohokori said: We were in page 3, IIRC. Anyway, that topic was...interesting. I'm a bit on both sides, merging those would decrease the clutter, but if they're as different as said in the topic, then they shouldn't be merged. I hope that a poll was made before about merging or not, though I don't set my hopes high on that. The general reaction seems negative, so I don't think it was made. That's MAL for you.This thread lost quite a bit in the crash, didn't it? I'm still thinking that franchise entries would solve this problem to a certain degree. You can check out the individual scores of the anime through the anime's own page, but only franchise rating would get you to top 30. As said before, no matter how epic you think KnK 5 is, you won't get there until you've watched the first five. The top 30 would act as a reference for new anime to watch, and it's hard to do so right now with sequels overcrowding the top anime page. They'd be ranked by the seasons of the anime; spin-offs and OVA would be excluded. |
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