mugi said: kuuderes_shadow said: mugi said: You can't twist another language to your liking and say, well "umi" now means "earth", because you're english and that's how you want to use that japanese word. Actually, if 'umi' got used enough by English speakers when referring to 'earth', then it would mean that. It wouldn't mean that in Japanese, true. But it would still have that meaning. Only if people who use it state that their "umi" has no relation to japanese and that it's a coincidence that it sounds the same like the japanese "umi". It would also require a dictionary entry. If the etymological origin of the word was the Japanese '海', then doing that would be lying, even with the meanings being completely different. And dictionary entries come about as a result of a word being formed, not the other way around. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
| I find it weird that they changed the entire database to Japanese titles in the name of "consistency" against the will of the majority, but incorrect tags are apparently A-OK. |
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Narmy said: Those are different things. This consistency is already there in the pages(IIRC), it's just considered wrong since the definition is wrong. The deal with the romaji names is because people kept on re adding shows with different title languages and some other things.I find it weird that they changed the entire database to Japanese titles in the name of "consistency" against the will of the majority, but incorrect tags are apparently A-OK. |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
mugi said: And if Japan says you're using their language wrong then maybe there's something to it? Maybe? We are not using their language, we use English with word that originated from their language. Does it seem like we speak Japanese to you? English has a lot of words of German or French origin, so should we change the meanings of the words because we use their languages wrong? |
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| Why not just use a flat English genre names? "Homosexual ♀" "Homosexual ♂" Along with ratings as Rx - Hentai or PG - 13 to indicate how severe it is. Since the Japanese terms have been evolving for years. Remember what is used now in Japan isn't what was used 10 years ago. And 10 years before that was a different term. So we can easily expect in 10 years a new term or term evolution to happen again. Everyone would end up bickering about it again down the road otherwise. I'm all for changing the hentai genre to "18+ Restricted" and the rating to "Rx - 18 Restricted" too. |
mugi said: If you want to see nonsense, just look in a mirror. The side against the current MAL use of "shoujo-ai" is saying "this usage is wrong because Japan says so, and Japan's word is law." So the logical and non-nonsensical extension of that would be to follow the same standard for other terms borrowed from the Japanese, "anime" being among them. It's the -antis who are being inconsistent, saying "we should do as Japan says for this but not that." I'm not seeing much of a reason for that double standard other than "OH WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE (FICTIONAL) CHILDREN?!?!?!?"Because it's irrational.. Twisting the language to ones own liking is nonsensical especially when it refers to something people understand as pedophilia. If you want to use your own language then do it, use a word everyone understands correctly without misunderstanding, the other solution is moronic and with 5g of ignorance. But if there is a proper term for it, well established and generally used, then use it.. And if Japan says you're using their language wrong then maybe there's something to it? Maybe? This "why anime only japanimation" argument is nonsense as well. People basically say, "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? F that!" but then "lol Japan uses "anime" for all animation, let's do that because Japan says so!". Good one. |
on 
| Ah so that's what it means. I hate pedophiles. Do we have a gore tag? |
Lisa of Shades uploaded torrents as WolfPack at nyaa Demotivational posters: Attack on Titan (SPOILERS, blood, sort of nudity) *Insert wolf image here* =°.°= |
mugi said: This "why anime only japanimation" argument is nonsense as well. People basically say, "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? F that!" but then "lol Japan uses "anime" for all animation, let's do that because Japan says so!". Good one. Don't twist my words. I'm saying "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? okay, but then use "anime" for all animation, because Japan says so!" |
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| The Hell? We already using that term (shoujo ai), so let it be. 0r do you want to stop all this Western anime fans calling themselves "otaku"? (hint: they are not) 0h, and don't forget to properly rename "Neon Genesis Evangelion" to "Shin Seiki Evangelion". |
 There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.  Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
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lpf said: If the Japanese-speaking squad could take a look at this before claiming that MAL use is incorrect, it would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Run this into Google Translate if you can't read runes. Thank you. Clearing up the direct translation for certain would be necessary in order to even start the discussion off... Otherwise this is just pointless disagreeing with each other. Facts before requests of any kind, changes included. Can anyone say for certain what Shoujo-Ai actually means? Without the use of Internet, please. From real-life usage. |
Serhiyko said: |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
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| I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: Problem, people refer to adult females as girls and adult males as boys.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
Mogu-sama said: I said usually and it could. There's men, women, male, female, sir, Ms, etc for adults. Boy and girl is used a lot more for younger people than older.IntroverTurtle said: Problem, people refer to adult females as girls and adult males as boys.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: THIS. Sums it all up. Discussion closed, everyone, go home.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. Thank you, sir, you're a genius and mah hero. +) |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
IntroverTurtle said: You try to find a smart argument but end up exposing the problem with the practice. The point is: If we want to use a Japanese term to describe the genre, then we should follow its meaning used in Japan. In the past westerners would call every Medieval Japan fighter, even a lowly soldier, a Samurai; now people know much better and Samurai is used only to mean what it is meant in Japan, which signifies the class as well. So if you have problem with BL for its meaning in English (but this leaves the question of how many English speaking people actually know what BL stands for? On the other hand, there are few Japanese who do not know Shoujo-Ai means girl pedophilia. So your argument that BL is just objectionable to English speaking people is really stretching the argument), then I would say let's just use the English term for the genre. Call it male homosexual, female homosexual, or anything that is clear to an English-speaking person, but just DO NOT use a confusing, obsolete and ultimately by now wrong term that is not commonly found in English vocabulary for a genre just so that it sounds Japanese. If you want the term to sound Japanese, then use the term as Japanese do. I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. kitsune0 said: It is far from close and far from summing anything up. It is just a wrongheaded attempt to bend the discussion to a logically flawed direction. And you even failed to notice it.THIS. Sums it all up. Discussion closed, everyone, go home. Thank you, sir, you're a genius and mah hero. +) |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Dumblederp said: Your knowledge may be dated, because back in the old days Shoujo-Ai was indeed once used to mean love between young women, but this is NOT the current usage now. That meaning has already been obsolete. And in the many years I lived in Japan all the Shoujo-Ai I encountered means girl pedophilia, often associated with the crime. But it is true that nowadays Lolicon is used far more often.In all my time spent absorbing Japanese media in its many forms, I've never come across a case where "shoujo-ai" was used to label pedophilia. It's a term used to describe love between girls, regardless of age. Over the years, the word "yuri" has become synonymous with "shoujo-ai". The word "yuri" itself is really just slang (not to mention a pretty common name in Japan). And I have got quite a number of Japanese people who told me that I understood Shoujo-Ai correctly so I am very clear that Shoujo-Ai no longer has a place to mean a genre that is about love/romance between young women. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| MAL's tags are really bad in general. Like how shonen is only used to describe 'actiony stuff with teenagers'. The result? Nichijou, which is of the shonen demographic, has no shonen tag. SAO, which is of the seinen demographic, has a shonen tag. Although using a term which refers to paedophilia to describe something that's meant to be innocent? That's even worse |
SeibaaHomuFeb 5, 2014 1:56 AM
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lpf said: <pre><pre>http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/少年愛#.E6.97.A5.E6.9C.AC.E3.81.AE.E7.89.A9.E8.AA.9E.E4.BD.9C.E5.93.81.E3.81.A7.E3.81.AE.E5.B0.91.E5.B9.B4.E6.84.9BIf the Japanese-speaking squad could take a look at this before claiming that MAL use is incorrect, it would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Run this into Google Translate if you can't read runes. Thank you. This thread is primarily about shoujo-ai being wrongly used on MAL. The relevant Japanese wiki is this one: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%A5%B3%E6%84%9B Take a look at the first paragraph. 少女愛（しょうじょあい、英語：girllove（和製英語としてのガールズラブも存在するが、意味が異なる））は、少女への、何らかの意味での性的関心を含む愛情である。性的・肉体的な関心に力点を置く場合もあるが、精神的でプラトニックな愛であることを強調する場合もある。日本ではロリコンの同義語として用いられることが多い。 |
EjcFeb 5, 2014 2:26 AM
The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
Dumblederp said: Well, I am mistaken?? Not if a bunch of Japanese told me that I am right. I'm sorry, but I think that you're mistaken. I'm friends with some of the Japanese exchange students at my university, and I've heard them use shoujo-ai when describing girl-girl relationships. The phrase is even used that way in anime very often. Using it when talking about pedophilia hardly makes sense considering its meaning. And if you say the term is used in anime very often, then I would like to see the source of how it is used in anime in Japan. Since you read Japanese, I would just show you one comment a Japanese sent to me about the debate. We are not only in complete agreement with the need to remove the Shoujo-Ai tag but he confirmed that when the word is mentioned, only pedophilia come to mind: はじめまして。 英語では伝えきれないかもしれないので、日本語で失礼します。 桜trickのスレッドで、symbvさんが「少女愛」というジャンルがおかしいと思い、削除しようとしたがうまくいかなかったというコメントを見ました。 私もこれには同意します。 少女愛と言ったら、まずロリコンのことしか思い浮かびませんよね。 何も出来ませんが、取り敢えず励ましの声援を送りたくてメールしました。 Dumblederp said: Actually I think it is YOU who are ill-informed and you should do more research on the phrase and its connotations. As I said, every occasion I encountered the term in Japan has to do with pedophilia NOT girl-girl love, and this is what Japanese people tell me how the term is used and understood in Japan now. I have done my research and the result is that the term was once used for girl-girl love and I suspect this is how the English speaking anime fans adopted the word to mean "yuri", but as I said that was then, and just like people have now stopped using the word Samurai to mean any medieval Japan fighters, it is high time that the usage of Shoujo-Ai to describe a genre be abolished when other terms like Yuri or simply female homosexual relationship carry the same meaning without ambiguity or confusion. I really don't mean to blatantly disagree with you, but I think that your information may a bit ill-informed. I urge you to do more research on the phrase and its connotations, both as a genre and in a social setting. To be honest, EVEN if you are right and the term is not as dated as I claim, this still does not dispel the argument that the term is deeply confusing, and this is the case even for the native Japanese speaking people (because at least some think Shoujo-Ai only means girl pedophilia), and if this is so confusing, why still keep the use of it?? lpf said: Dude, you should read the title of the thread before posting. We are talking about SHOUJO-AI. Your quote is about SHOUNEN-AI. I think you should take a look at the title before making that post and this would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Thank you. <pre><pre><pre>http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/少年愛#.E6.97.A5.E6.9C.AC.E3.81.AE.E7.89.A9.E8.AA.9E.E4.BD.9C.E5.93.81.E3.81.A7.E3.81.AE.E5.B0.91.E5.B9.B4.E6.84.9BIf the Japanese-speaking squad could take a look at this before claiming that MAL use is incorrect, it would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Run this into Google Translate if you can't read runes. Thank you. |
symbvFeb 5, 2014 2:53 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| So which of our Japanese linguistic overlords (because "being a speaker of a language" makes you an official authority on its usage) do we believe? The ones dumblederp is mentioning, or the one symbv has quoted? it is high time that the usage of Shoujo-Ai to describe a genre be abolished when other terms like Yuri or simply female homosexual relationship carry the same meaning without ambiguity or confusion. Yes, let's substitute a 3-syllable (by English standards), 9-keystroke word for a 12-syllable, 37-keystroke phrase. Totally simple! You know how much the Internet loves to create and read long-form prose. As for "yuri," I recall that our linguistic overlords declared that it was reserved for explicit pornography (as with "yaoi") and that it shouldn't be used for lesbian romances or overtones in normal all-ages anime. So it's got the same potential for confusion once the pendulum swings back the other way.Point is, rather than bending over backwards to concur with the inconsistent and shifting edicts from afar, it's preferable to use terms that the site's core English-speaking/Western audiences find convenient and comprehensible. If a tiny Japanese-speaking minority around here finds that confusing, well... Japanese adopts plenty of English loanwords and sometimes mangles them beyond comprehension. Would they extend the same courtesy to foreign users and correct their English, or Janglish, as it's sometimes called? |
lpf said: Well, you did not quote those people's posts arguing about Shounen-Ai. So it is natural to see that your post is a contribution intended to address the general topic of the thread, which is about Shoujo-Ai. And since you are so intent on making the thread intelligent and productive, then shouldn't you have pulled the discussion back to where it should be all along, which is to discuss the Shoujo-Ai tag??symbv said: I've read the title, but maybe you haven't read the posts which did make a contention out of the use of shounen-ai. My original reply (if you've read it) addressed these comments. If you genuinely think the use of shounen-ai isn't up for debate in a thread about shoujo-ai, then go after the people who, to begin with, brought up the subject to which I just sought to contribute?Dude, you should read the title of the thread before posting. We are talking about SHOUJO-AI. Your quote is about SHOUNEN-AI. I think you should take a look at the title before making that post and this would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Thank you. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| It's surprising, that there is a so big fight about it. I don't realy understand why so many people protecting a wrong tag. Let me affirm I don't want to attack anybody. As I know; Japanese using Yuri (百合) for all girl x girl Anime, Manga, also describing real life girl x girl couples with this word. (correct me please if I'm wrong). They not isolate tamer or less tamer ones with different 'genre tags', they call all Yuri. Westerns somehow started separating them, and named the tamer ones 'shoujo-ai' - maybe because rough translation, and not asked Japanese, if that means something else instead. And those, who protect it in this thread now, saying "it means tamer yuri in english" - is't it sounds a bit weird? If you would like an english word for it, find one, and use that, if you like Japanese, then use the correct word. I mean we, who use this site, like Anime, Manga, most of us also like Japanese language, - even if not understand it - so don't you would like to use a Japanese word as Japanese use? It reminds me when I was in elementary school, where we learnt german and no english, but we liked computer games, what most are english, we often used many english words incorrectly. But when I started learning english, I realised my mistakes, and no longer use 'armoire' for armory or /potion/ instead of /ˈpəʊʃ(ə)n/ for potion ect. ect. (not talking about grammar mistakes, which I'm sure, I do often, gomenasai). It basically souds the same a bit, but here many peoples saying "but I want to use the word incorrectly to Japanese, because I like it like this" Also another thing, why this tag may not necesary; It's like no one - or at least I never seen anybody - separating het. romance like; 'only platonic', 'the're loving each other, and kissing', ect. It's the same, I think, if you see Yuri tag you can know there is girl x girl in that Manga/Anime, and if you see other tags as well (like 'romance', or 'hentai', ect.), you can know what kind of Yuri is it. So, because of this, a tag for isolating tamer ones from not tamer ones not even necesary, because the existence or lack of other tags beside the tag Yuri decribe it well (if all the tags used correctly) If anybody still want to separate them, they can do it on their own Anime/Manga list's 'tags' as freely as they want, and also can use their precious 'pedophilia' tag to their heart's content. Let me reaffirm I don't want to attack anybody. If I did, Gomenasai. |
Zalis said: He said that he heard some Japanese exchange students using the term. I have got Japanese directly telling me about the proper use of the term. I have lived in Japan for decades and I read Japanese news and books everyday - though I am not sure if dumblederp has similar experience to share. So which of our Japanese linguistic overlords (because "being a speaker of a language" makes you an official authority on its usage) do we believe? The ones dumblederp is mentioning, or the one symbv has quoted?] Zalis said: Well, then tell me on what basis did those "linguistic overlords" (who are they precisely anyway??) declare such thing? Because I have never seen "yuri" being used only for explicit porn in Japan. In fact what does that declaration has to do with "linguistic" ???. As for "yuri," I recall that our linguistic overlords declared that it was reserved for explicit pornography (as with "yaoi") and that it shouldn't be used for lesbian romances or overtones in normal all-ages anime. So it's got the same potential for confusion once the pendulum swings back the other way. Zalis said: Then what is convenient and comprehensible? Do the core English speaking people know what the words Shoujo-Ai and Yuri mean?? At the end you are only using some vocab that are absolutely incomprehensible to most English speaking people, including most casual anime fans. If you want comprehensibility then you should go for something that is *really* comprehensible, and this is English. Call the genre "female homosexuality". Convenient and comprehensible. I have no problem. But don't pull some Japanese words and then use it in totally different way from how it is used by the Japanese now. Point is, rather than bending over backwards to concur with the inconsistent and shifting edicts from afar, it's preferable to use terms that the site's core English-speaking/Western audiences find convenient and comprehensible. Zalis said: Well, from what I see, very few people here who are against the Shoujo-Ai tag speaks Japanese. I am actually the rare exception, so you are actually misfiring your shot here. If a tiny Japanese-speaking minority around here finds that confusing, well... Zalis said: Well, if they are adopting the words as proper Japanese so that it can be found in a standard Japanese dictionary, then it is no longer a confusing term in the context. In fact, those Janglish is not even vocab adopted directly from the English vocabulary but more concoction created with English words (there is no such term as "free pass" or "new half" in English) which is unlike Shoujo-Ai, which is a term taken directly from the anime/manga vocabulary of a bygone era but its usage in western worlds has never gone beyond a tiny circle of anime/manga fans (on the other hand, you can grab a Japanese dictionary and find the terms "free pass" and "new half" with little problem). So your argument just fails to stand.Japanese adopts plenty of English loanwords and sometimes mangles them beyond comprehension. Would they extend the same courtesy to foreign users and correct their English, or Janglish, as it's sometimes called? Sora_92 said: Sora_92, you have got a very good analogy here. Those who are against our reasonable request of taking the Shoujo-Ai tag down are just like a bunch of kids who would not admit they have been making mistake all along but want to treat the misguided usage as their toy that no one can pry away from them. Pretty sad, huh? It reminds me when I was in elementary school, where we learnt german and no english, but we liked computer games, what most are english, we often used many english words incorrectly. But when I started learning english, I realised my mistakes, and no longer use 'armoire' for armory or /potion/ instead of /ˈpəʊʃ(ə)n/ for potion ect. ect. (not talking about grammar mistakes, which I'm sure, I do often, gomenasai). It basically souds the same a bit, but here many peoples saying "but I want to use the word incorrectly to Japanese, because I like it like this" |
symbvFeb 5, 2014 6:18 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| We still didn't hear any response to "than we should start calling "anime" everything animated" and "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". But that's 0K, I understand that there is nothing to answer without revealing your own double standards and twisted logic. But let me point to one tiny little bit of problem here: 0K, we all happily destroyed that cursed "shoujo-ai" tag and victoriously put oh so G-dly Righteous "yuri" tag instead. Well, we all happy. Then what about all the fraggin' world around us? Are you seriously gonna go all the way and fight like damn hundreds of thousands other anime fans all around the globe? 'Cause, you know, a whole Hell of 'em using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri". So 0K, we can be oh so damn right, but what about communicating with others besides our big happy circle of MAL users? |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: What double standard and twisted logic? If you want to insinuate something, please elaborate it clearly. We still didn't hear any response to "than we should start calling "anime" everything animated" and "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". But that's 0K, I understand that there is nothing to answer without revealing your own double standards and twisted logic. kitsune0 said: You are putting carts before horse here. The question is not how many people use "shoujo-ai" but whether it is right to use the word to mean female homosexuality.Then what about all the fraggin' world around us? Are you seriously gonna go all the way and fight like damn hundreds of thousands other anime fans all around the globe? 'Cause, you know, a whole Hell of 'em using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri". So 0K, we can be oh so damn right, but what about communicating with others besides our big happy circle of MAL users? To put an extreme example, 60 years ago using the word n*gger was common and according to your argument then nobody should change it then just because so many people were using it ?? I believe that taking off the Shoujo Ai tag is the right thing to do and how many people get the mistaken idea about what the word means should not be a consideration when we consider whether to keep using it here in this forum. Besides, MAL is a major anime site in western world. At least I hope that people in charge of this forum think so or have the inspiration of being one. And here MAL can play a leading role in facilitating the anime/manga culture flow and educating the western fandom, by using Japanese term in its correct meaning. MAL could have taken the leadership to correct a long running misuse of a Japanese term but instead, by sticking to attach Shoujo-Ai tag to new anime such as Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, it contents itself with stagnancy and lethargy. |
symbvFeb 5, 2014 5:58 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Heredity said: Well, it was once used in mainstream movie and it was often used in casual but not necessarily insulting way. I don't think this is how it is used now.Nigger is still used a lot, and still means the same thing. My point is that consideration of whether to drop the usage of a word should not be dependent on how many people keep using it in unacceptable way. And here there is a parallel between the two words. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
kitsune0 said: "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". MAL does that little by little in fact symbv said: At least I hope that people in charge of this forum think so or have the inspiration of being one. And here MAL can play a leading role in facilitating the anime/manga culture flow and educating the western fandom, by using Japanese term in its correct meaning. MAL could have taken the leadership to correct a long running misuse of a Japanese term but instead, by sticking to attach Shoujo-Ai tag to new anime such as Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, it contents itself with stagnancy and lethargy. They can but they won't Sora_92 said: so don't you would like to use a Japanese word as Japanese use? No not really symbv said: Sora_92, you have got a very good analogy here. Those are against our reasonable request about taking the Shoujo-Ai tag down is just like a bunch of kids who would not admit they have been making mistake all along but want to treat the misguided usage as their toy that no one can pry away from them. Pretty sad, huh? GIVE... ME... BACK... MY... TOY!! T_T Or I'm gonna cry. Don't be a buly, why are you being a bully? |
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| I agree, and I honestly don't see the point in sticking to an out-dated and obsolete term anyway, there's already the yuri tag which serves the same purpose of the old meaning for shoujo-ai. I wonder if the DB Managers are either disagreeing with the situation or just lazy to change from shoujo-ai to yuri for every entry. |
| Can anybody create a poll to see who agrees and who is agains it? Also would be nice to know, those who are agains it, why the're agains it. Might a new thread with some simple answer formats like: agrees or agains it?: why?: |
Sora_92 said: agrees or agains it?: agains Sora_92 said: why?: because my toy |
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| The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
symbv said: It was more of a witty observation than an argument. IntroverTurtle said: You try to find a smart argument but end up exposing the problem with the practice. The point is: If we want to use a Japanese term to describe the genre, then we should follow its meaning used in Japan. In the past westerners would call every Medieval Japan fighter, even a lowly soldier, a Samurai; now people know much better and Samurai is used only to mean what it is meant in Japan, which signifies the class as well. So if you have problem with BL for its meaning in English (but this leaves the question of how many English speaking people actually know what BL stands for? On the other hand, there are few Japanese who do not know Shoujo-Ai means girl pedophilia. So your argument that BL is just objectionable to English speaking people is really stretching the argument), then I would say let's just use the English term for the genre. Call it male homosexual, female homosexual, or anything that is clear to an English-speaking person, but just DO NOT use a confusing, obsolete and ultimately by now wrong term that is not commonly found in English vocabulary for a genre just so that it sounds Japanese. If you want the term to sound Japanese, then use the term as Japanese do. I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. So you're basically saying that the Japanese are able to use English words wrong to describe a genre that fits their culture and community but we're not allowed to use Japanese words to do the same thing even though our community is already used to it. Which in our case it's not really wrong, more like outdated. While yes I realize the community we're in is based on Japanese works(mostly) and thus culture, but it still feels a little iffy to me as this is basically a different community based in another country. There's probably more words that we use wrong, I honestly would like to know what those words are. So how many people who notice the wrong meaning decides how wrong it is and if it should be changed. That could work but those are words that the anime community isn't really used to when referring to anime or manga. Yuri, shoujo ai, yaoi, and shounen ai are. But I guess it could work. And correction, isn't it only confusing to people who live in Japan? And wouldn't suddenly changing that actually confuse the English speaking fans who are already use to the outdated(not wrong) definition? And how obsolete is it? Are there any manga that still use that term?(like olds ones still in bookshops or whatever) If someone saw it would they automatically think of pedophilia and run away or would they realize "Oh hey they're using the old definition". |
IntroverTurtleFeb 5, 2014 9:36 AM
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact But 0K, I got it. So, now we some kind of trendsetters, all educated and intelligent. Wow. I guess, now we're some sort of legislature. Yeah, let's lead people to happiness. Even... no, especially if they don't want it. Democracy is a rule of majority, isn't it? |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
Heredity said: Ejc said: Take a look at the first paragraph. 少女愛（しょうじょあい、英語：girllove（和製英語としてのガールズラブも存在するが、意味が異なる））は、少女への、何らかの意味での性的関心を含む愛情である。性的・肉体的な関心に力点を置く場合もあるが、精神的でプラトニックな愛であることを強調する場合もある。日本ではロリコンの同義語として用いられることが多い。 Wow, convinced me. That's pretty clear. Shonen-ai and shoujo-ai are simply not used anymore. Why don't we just default to BL and an equivalent "GL" for "girls love". kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact But 0K, I got it. So, now we some kind of trendsetters, all educated and intelligent. Wow. I guess, now we're some sort of legislature. Yeah, let's lead people to happiness. Even... no, especially if they don't want it. Democracy is a rule of majority, isn't it? Does that mean we can start calling Attack on Titan The Eotena Onslaught? |
Kiraly said: No, we should call it Shingeki no Kyojin. Actually, we already doin' it.Does that mean we can start calling Attack on Titan The Eotena Onslaught? 0K, jokes aside: don't get me wrong. I'm all about callin' things properly (Hell, I'm always referrin' to NGE as Shin Seiki Evangelion), but there are two things: 1) only in proper community. I mean, 0K, let's start step by step usin' "yuri" instead of "shoujo-ai", but don't force it. 0thers may get us wrong. Let the time change things little by little; 2) just as someone already mentioned, using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri" with some markin' words (I dunno, PG-14?) is just way more convenient. Yes, it's kinda lame borrowing, but it makes the language richer. Like, for example: in English you use "mail" only for paper mail (well, usually), and using "e-mail" for Net messages. Now, welcome to Russia, where we use "meil" as you use "e-mail", while still usin' our own "pismo" for paper mail. See? All in all: yes, if community decides to replace "shoujo-ai" with "yuri", I'll obey. But I'm still strongly against it. Thank you all and sorry for the rant. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact Yes I'm sure, it seems they left some of the most popular ones, but they changed for example all Dragon Ball movies and Legend of the Galactic Heroes to Japanese. If I'm not mistaken, it seems that in the past MAL went with whatever title was most popular, then staff decided to make the database consistent, and I don't know if it's true but I've been told that they stopped midway while doing so, for some reasons. I liked the old way more tbh. If you want consistency, go to AniDB |
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IntroverTurtle said: wouldn't suddenly changing that actually confuse the English speaking fans who are already use to the outdated(not wrong) definition? Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. |
tiro_finale said: It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal loli hentai? |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
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